Bible Study Speaking in Tongues

[lovely]

Sputnik, what you said reminds me of the laughing thing that was going on a few years back. Is there Scripture to support the slaying thing, or the laughing thing?

Blessings

 

[Free]

There was never any such thing as an 'unknown' tongue. Every tongue or language is spoken by someone, somewhere in the world. The language is only 'unknown' or 'mysterious' to one who doesn't understand the language.

I take it then that you are an expert and know all languages that are and ever have been so that you can tell the real tongues from the false.

However, those who practice 'tongues' often participate in other interesting practices as well.

Well, of course. It all starts with tongues. Usually that is followed by shaking, then laughing, then falling down, being 'slain in the spirit,' then barking, sometimes mooing, then knitting and crocheting, and then comes the eating of the sacred beet, dipped in chocolate. All this happens just before we climb on our carpets and go for a ride into the sunset.

Is that about what you had in mind? What other "unscriptural/interesting" practices do those who practice tongues often participate in?

 

[Julian Pyke]

That scripture clearly says "speaks not unto man but unto God, for in the spirit he speaketh mysteries."

His spirit is talking to God. The Bible also says he who speaks in tongues edifiath himself (his spirit man is building himself up.) He who interprets edifiath the church. Yes prophecy can be given without tongue speaking.

Who gives the authority to interpret? God. Plain and simple. The authority is simple. God---Church

When I said if something were wrong and my pastor would address it I didn't mean it happened when speaking in tongues. I was in church and the pastor was preaching and this man just stood up and started saying stuff (mind you its in the Bible) but he spoke it in anger) {He was saying the potion where it says Do not all prophecy. Do not all...) you could tell it was a show because he was singing something before hand. Anyway he addressed it. Yes it came out of the Bible. But you had to be tehre to understand. It was out of anger... and pretty pointless... I mean well you had to be tehre to understand what I am saying.

No, someone answered on how the Penacostals view. And from my reasearch I did last night... yes it seems Pentacostals ahve taken it abit too far. I didn't know the view and now I do. (I think)

What is slaying in the Spirit?

~~~~~~~~~~

The people don't do it for a show. The Bible says the church gather together in one accord.

He who speaks in an unknown tongue edifiath himself, he who interprets edifiath the church. Does there have to be tongues spoken then prophecy? no. When did I say there had to be? All I have said is: "The Speaking in tongues I am referring to is your Spirit Man talking to God." And to add: "It doesn't ALWAYS have to be in front of people, in fact I try not to. I do it in my own personal time or when God tells me to pray and I have no idea what about. I pray in English and in Tongues. My Spirit man knows what to pray for, I don't.")

 

[lovely]

Free wrote:

Well, of course. It all starts with tongues. Usually that is followed by shaking, then laughing, then falling down, being 'slain in the spirit,' then barking, sometimes mooing, then knitting and crocheting, and then comes the eating of the sacred beet, dipped in chocolate. All this happens just before we climb on our carpets and go for a ride into the sunset.

Free, aren't there many who do some of the thing you mentioned? How do you feel about that? And, the slaying in the spirit. I am wondering what scripture teaches on such things?

Blessings.

 

[Julian Pyke]

"If the first time you walked you fell and broke your knee are you gonna give up and never try again. Don't base your decisions on others actions. I mean comeon... if you met a guy who claimed to be a Christian and tried to witness to you while drunk would you never wanna know God again. There are many false teachings and false things outthere. But that doesn't make the whole idea false."

 

[SputnikBoy]

There was never any such thing as an 'unknown' tongue. Every tongue or language is spoken by someone, somewhere in the world. The language is only 'unknown' or 'mysterious' to one who doesn't understand the language.

I take it then that you are an expert and know all languages that are and ever have been so that you can tell the real tongues from the false.

Sputnik response: Yes, of course I'm an expert on all languages. Didn't I mention that in my profile?
;-)

The truth of the matter is that I frequently have a problem articulating in my native tongue, English. But I DO have the ability to discern fake from the genuine as long as it doesn't or does correlate with the scriptures.

I think the main problem with this kind of discussion is the word 'tongue' itself. If we could simply substitute 'tongue' with 'language' it would lose its mysticism. The Pentecostal Church would fall into a heap and die because 'gibberish' isn't a language. 'Tongues' sounds a little 'Twilight Zone-ish' to those who don't understand the REAL definition of the word.

Here's a test for whoever wants to participate. Take all of the examples of 'tongue' or 'tongues' in the Bible as in regard to 'vocal utterances', then check out the Greek lexicon (for NT definitions) and see what it has to say. In all cases it will refer to 'glossa'. NOT 'glossalalia' I quickly add. I don't know where THAT word comes from ...the mind of some Pentecostal, I guess. The definition of 'glossa' is simply 'known languages' or 'languages of the world that are spoken or understood by someone'. Paul clearly says this in 1 Corinthians 14:10-12. In fact, it's worth the quoting: (10) "Undoubtedly there are all sorts of languages in the world, yet none of them is without meaning. (11) If then I do not grasp the meaning of what someone is saying, I am a foreigner to the speaker, and he is a foreigner to me. (12) So it is with you. Since you are eager to have spiritual gifts, try to excel in gifts that built up the church."

The spiritual gifts are clearly those that build up (edify) the church (NOT the self). The spiritual gift of tongues are clearly 'languages of the world (v.10)'. So, we can cancel out 'the language of angels (1 Corinthians 13:1)' since that is not a recognized language of the world. Paul is simply using that particular reference as hyperbole or illustrative language to make his point anyway. We can forget about meaningless 'gibberish' or 'babbling' since that is nothing more or less than what it actually is. Discernment, not necessarily the skills of a linguist, are the requirement here. Is it scriptural? It either is or isn't.

However, those who practice 'tongues' often participate in other interesting practices as well.

Well, of course. It all starts with tongues. Usually that is followed by shaking, then laughing, then falling down, being 'slain in the spirit,' then barking, sometimes mooing, then knitting and crocheting, and then comes the eating of the sacred beet, dipped in chocolate. All this happens just before we climb on our carpets and go for a ride into the sunset.

Is that about what you had in mind? What other "unscriptural/interesting" practices do those who practice tongues often participate in?

Sputnik response: You pretty well laid it out for me, Free, thanks. The exaggerations you make (and they are quite amusing) have been duly noted but aren't they ALL exaggerations anyway? I don't see any of these practices as being in the least scriptural, even the 'legit' Pentecostal ones contained in your list.

 

[cj]

I don't see any of these practices as being in the least scriptural, even the 'legit' Pentecostal ones contained in your list.

This is a wonderful observation, and really is the heart of the matter.

Indiscipline and autonomy are rampant in the Church today, and in the matter of tongue-speaking this ungodliness is most obvious.

It is absolutely unscriptural to take some light apart from all light.

Now, I'm fully aware that scrpture tells us to do the best with what we have received, but in the matter 0f speaking in tongues, many believers have "added" to the scriptures.

How often have I heard it said that "We speak in tongues so that Satan does not know what's being said."

Or, by a pastor..... "Oh, we need to bind Satan by all excercising our gift of tongues together."

I've even heard saints say that they have sat in the back of meetings speaking in tongues under their breath to bind the evil spirits in the meetings.



Yet I know this of my own experience, when I was a new believer, just a few months into my walk, I spilt boiling water on my hand. Immediately, out of somewhere within me, utterances came out, tongues that I could not understand. By that afternoon my hand had no evidence of being burned by boiling water. None.


God certainly moves in mysterious ways, but God also moves in a very clear and disciplined and orderly way. The mystery is unrevealed, but all scripture tells us that it is God's ultimate desire to be revealed to all creation and not remain hidden, not remain a mystery.

So which do we take as our goal, the revealing of God or the continual hiding of God?

In love,
cj

 

[Free]

Free, aren't there many who do some of the thing you mentioned? How do you feel about that?

Yes, there are some who do some of the things I mentioned, maybe even all. I was hot and tired when I wrote that and got a little carried away.

I was speaking out against the statement that "those who practice tongues also have other interesting practices." Not only is this a blatant misrepresentation of all who practice tongues, it is just silliness to sit there and point out all the "interesting practices" that others may do in order to make certain groups appear false. It really is an ad hominem attack.

And, the slaying in the spirit. I am wondering what scripture teaches on such things?

And here is the point that Sputnik and cj have also made, but it is one that I believe is based on a misundertanding of part of Scripture's purpose. Whether or not it is in the Bible is irrelevant; it only matters if it goes against the Bible. I use the terms 'non-biblical' to denote those things which simply aren't in the Bible and 'unbiblical' for those things which go against or contradict the Bible.

Is being 'slain in the Spirit' in the Bible? Not directly, although 2 Chronicles 5:14 does support such a notion:

"so that the priests could not stand to minister because of the cloud, for the glory of the Lord filled the house of God."

Having said that, even if one rejects the above verse as support, which I fully expect just as I'm sure it was expected that I use this verse, being 'slain in the Spirit' does not in anyway whatsoever contradict the Bible.

It is error to conclude that just because it isn't in the Bible that it is therefore unbiblical and not of God.

The Pentecostal Church would fall into a heap and die because 'gibberish' isn't a language. 'Tongues' sounds a little 'Twilight Zone-ish' to those who don't understand the REAL definition of the word.

So then I must ask the following question: are you an expert and know all languages that are and ever have been so that you can tell the real tongues from the false? If not, you cannot reasonably make such a statement.

In all cases it will refer to 'glossa'. NOT 'glossalalia' I quickly add. I don't know where THAT word comes from ...the mind of some Pentecostal, I guess.

Actually, I just did a quick search at webster.com and it is Latin for 'tongue'.

We can forget about meaningless 'gibberish' or 'babbling' since that is nothing more or less than what it actually is. Discernment, not necessarily the skills of a linguist, are the requirement here.

And yet again you are implying that you know that every instance of tongues in the last hundred years isn't a real language.

This is a wonderful observation, and really is the heart of the matter.

I don't think so. I think the heart of the matter is fear of the unknown and ignorance of Scripture's purpose.

God certainly moves in mysterious ways, but God also moves in a very clear and disciplined and orderly way. The mystery is unrevealed, but all scripture tells us that it is God's ultimate desire to be revealed to all creation and not remain hidden, not remain a mystery.

So which do we take as our goal, the revealing of God or the continual hiding of God?

So tell me: do you understand the Trinity? The Incarnation? How God creates by merely speaking? These are mysteries and will remain so until Jesus returns. Does a lack of understanding mean that we are hiding something? Not at all. These are things that are simply beyond our comprehension.

You cannot say on the one hand that God moves in mysterious ways but then state that mystery is an attempt to hide God. Sometimes God moves mysteriously, sometimes he doesn't. That's just the way it is.

 

[Julian Pyke]

cj... I continue to og back to the scripture I have pointed out. And I continue to say not every person who "speaks in tongues" is correct. Is every religion about God correct? (Islam vs Christiananity) so are you gonna disregard God just because one is wrong.

1 Corinthians 14:2 - For he that speaketh in an unknown tongue speaketh not unto men, but unto God: for no man understandeth him; howbeit in the spirit he speaketh mysteries.

Mark 16:17 And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues

Acts 2:4 - And they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance.

Acts 2:4- I think it's interesting how it was other tongues in here. New Tongues in Mark. This goes to show that there are different forms of tongues in the Bible. (1- Someone speaking in another language that other men can hear. And 2- your spirit man talking to God, no man understandeth him.)

1 Corinthians 14:4 - He that speaketh in an unknown tongue edifieth himself; but he that prophesieth edifieth the church.

Pretty self explanitory there

1 Corinthians 14:5 - I would that ye all spake with tongues but rather that ye prophesied: for greater is he that prophesieth than he that speaketh with tongues, except he interpret, that the church may receive edifying.

So tongues is useless in the Church unless it is interpreted for edification of the Chruch.


1 Corinthians 14:13 - Wherefore let him that speaketh in an unknown tongue pray that he may interpret.

Self explanitory

1 Corinthians 14:14 - For if I pray in an unknown tongue, my spirit prayeth, but my understanding is unfruitful.

His spirit is praying and his understanding is unfruitful. His spirit is talking to God.

1 Corinthians 14:27 - If any man speak in an unknown tongue, let it be by two, or at the most by three, and that by course; and let one interpret.

I can provide more scriptures here. Basically what I am saying is in the Bible there is 1) Speaking in another language that is known somewhere in the world. and 2) your spirit man praying to God.

 

[dcookcan]

Free

I have spoken from my own experiences with charismatic christianity. I was vague in the who and where and I will remain such.

Here is another sample of my experience with tongues. A good friend of ours received "the gift" after being a christian for many years. Over the coarse of about a month she soon started shaking a twiching (violently). The more she spoke in tongues, the more violent the shaking and twitching became until she realized that she could not look after her children. She became convinced that she had a demon and invited those of us she trusted to pray for her. Needless to say, she left that church and stopped speeking in tongues.

"You will know them by their fruit." What good fruit can you find in this experience?

 

[SputnikBoy]

As so often happens on threads such as this, the topic under discussion becomes so off-track and vague that people are not too sure what the actual issues are any more. I mean, are we debating scriptural tongues or are we discussing 'Pentecostal-type tongues'? They ARE poles apart. There really are not that many scriptural texts that refer to this issue anyway. So, if someone would please present those texts from the Bible that support 'PENTECOSTAL-TYPE tongues' (if this is the issue under discussion), we can take it from there.

In 1 Corinthians 13 and 14, Paul is instructing the Church of Corinth on their many mispractices of 'Spiritual gifts' ...if indeed they were 'mispracticing' gifts of the Spirit at all! Check out the history of that particular church ...not exactly one on which to use as an exemplar for either 'tongue-speaking' or model behavior! Paul would have a field day with similarly instructing some of the churches of today if he were here.

Oh, by the way, Paul was also writing to the Church of Corinth ...NOT US. He would have had no idea that we in the year 2005 would have been reading his epistles. We really need to bear that fact in mind.

 

[Julian Pyke]

cj... I continue to og back to the scripture I have pointed out. And I continue to say not every person who "speaks in tongues" is correct. Is every religion about God correct? (Islam vs Christiananity) so are you gonna disregard God just because one is wrong.

1 Corinthians 14:2 - For he that speaketh in an unknown tongue speaketh not unto men, but unto God: for no man understandeth him; howbeit in the spirit he speaketh mysteries.

Mark 16:17 And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues

Acts 2:4 - And they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance.

Acts 2:4- I think it's interesting how it was other tongues in here. New Tongues in Mark. This goes to show that there are different forms of tongues in the Bible. (1- Someone speaking in another language that other men can hear. And 2- your spirit man talking to God, no man understandeth him.)

1 Corinthians 14:4 - He that speaketh in an unknown tongue edifieth himself; but he that prophesieth edifieth the church.

Pretty self explanitory there

1 Corinthians 14:5 - I would that ye all spake with tongues but rather that ye prophesied: for greater is he that prophesieth than he that speaketh with tongues, except he interpret, that the church may receive edifying.

So tongues is useless in the Church unless it is interpreted for edification of the Chruch.


1 Corinthians 14:13 - Wherefore let him that speaketh in an unknown tongue pray that he may interpret.

Self explanitory

1 Corinthians 14:14 - For if I pray in an unknown tongue, my spirit prayeth, but my understanding is unfruitful.

His spirit is praying and his understanding is unfruitful. His spirit is talking to God.

1 Corinthians 14:27 - If any man speak in an unknown tongue, let it be by two, or at the most by three, and that by course; and let one interpret.

I can provide more scriptures here. Basically what I am saying is in the Bible there is 1) Speaking in another language that is known somewhere in the world. and 2) your spirit man praying to God.

Exactly Sputnik. I keep providing scripture tongues and they ignore it. I want this to be about scriptual tongues. Anyway what I am talking about is: Speaking in tongues being your Spirit Man talking to God.

 

[Free]

Free

I have spoken from my own experiences with charismatic christianity. I was vague in the who and where and I will remain such.

Here is another sample of my experience with tongues. A good friend of ours received "the gift" after being a christian for many years. Over the coarse of about a month she soon started shaking a twiching (violently). The more she spoke in tongues, the more violent the shaking and twitching became until she realized that she could not look after her children. She became convinced that she had a demon and invited those of us she trusted to pray for her. Needless to say, she left that church and stopped speeking in tongues.

"You will know them by their fruit." What good fruit can you find in this experience?

It doesn't sound like there was any good fruit in that experience, but the error here is the same that is being continually made in this thread. One experience or a hundred experiences of this type do not mean that tongues is false. It may be that in those instance it was, but to extend that to every instance of tongues since Apostolic times is fallacious.

I have been around many people who speak in tonuges and no one that I know of has had that type of experience.

I mean, are we debating scriptural tongues or are we discussing 'Pentecostal-type tongues'? They ARE poles apart.

We're debating both. You claim they are "poles apart" but myself and Julian are saying they are one and the same. That is the issue. Having said that, I would qualify that by saying that the Bible reveals the gift of tonuges used in two different ways; just a little different from how Julian described "two tongues".

A careful reading of 1 Corinthians 14 reveals much, as Julian is pointing out.

In 1 Corinthians 13 and 14, Paul is instructing the Church of Corinth on their many mispractices of 'Spiritual gifts' ...if indeed they were 'mispracticing' gifts of the Spirit at all! Check out the history of that particular church ...not exactly one on which to use as an exemplar for either 'tongue-speaking' or model behavior! Paul would have a field day with similarly instructing some of the churches of today if he were here.

Now you are changing the topic slightly. The discussion is about the gift of tongues not how it is practiced. However, it certainly is related to today's "Pentecostal sytle" tongues and should be addressed.

First, Paul is clear in chapters 12-14 that he is talking about spiritual gifts and not counterfeits. Second, Paul's reason for writing on the gifts is that the Corinthian Church was misusing and abusing these gifts, particularly tongues it seems. Third, I quite agree that it is often practiced this way today for some reason.

But of course misusing and abusing something does not mean that it doesn't exist or is false, it just means it is misused and abused.

Oh, by the way, Paul was also writing to the Church of Corinth ...NOT US. He would have had no idea that we in the year 2005 would have been reading his epistles. We really need to bear that fact in mind.

All the authors of the Bible did the same. They were writing for their immediate audiences, but God knew what would become of these letters and that we would be reading them.

 

[Julian Pyke]

Lemme add something.

From what I have ehard... everyone here who experinced tongues hwo thinks is false... relate it to Pentacostal tongues. I'm not POSITIVE what their view of tongues are but from what I udnerstand... some Pentacostal tongues views are abused. But that doesn't make it all wrong.

I agree with Free.

Now, What I am saying is do you guys believe speaking in tongues is your Spirit Man talking to God?

 

[cj]

Lemme add something.

From what I have ehard... everyone here who experinced tongues hwo thinks is false... relate it to Pentacostal tongues. I'm not POSITIVE what their view of tongues are but from what I udnerstand... some Pentacostal tongues views are abused. But that doesn't make it all wrong.

I agree with Free.

Now, What I am saying is do you guys believe speaking in tongues is your Spirit Man talking to God?

No, a man who speaks out of his regenerated spirit is a man who is speaking God Himself.

What you are not seeing is that the regenerated spirit of a man is mingled as one with the Spirit of God....... oil and fine flour, indivisible, just one.

This is the relationship of God and man in man's fully regenerated spirit.

Who then is it that speaks out of a man's regenerated spirit, man or God, God or man?

If you were in the position of beiong one with God, would you speak anything that God did not speak?

I and the Father are one.... I do what I see the Father do..... I speak what I hear the Father speak..... I am in the Father and the Father is in me...... this is Jesus, He who is the Son of God, He who is our brother, He has has brought us into God and God into us.

Don't you know that you are a son of God.

Does the son not speak the Father?

But how many in Christianity see this?

Not many. And so we have saints reading the word according to poor light, and trying desperately to get it right, but having no vision, they enter into confusion. The confusion of trying to gain God through soulish effort.

See JP, the soul of a man is weak, it is in a sense subject to one of two "heads", the Lord or Satan, the tree of life or the tree of the knowledge of good and evil.

Throughout the entire bible there are two distinct lines, one is found in God and the other in His adversary. One ends in destruction and the other in eternal life.

Everything in creation is sustained out of one of these two lines, including the speaking in tongues out of a soulish motive and speaking in tongues out of the spirit.

Unfortunately, over the years, as the degradation within the Church body became worse, one of the clear views that was once possessed was lost. This view being that nothing of man that was outside of Christ could have any value.

Many Christians today know nothing of the reality of their regenerated spirit. Thsy might have an idea that they have a spirit, but when asked what was saved at the moment of regeneration, many will say their soul. But this is not the full truth.

Additionally, when asked where God dwells in a believer many will simple say "God is in me." ut this is also not the full truth.

Yesterday, I asked a brother, who has walked with the Lord for over 25 years, what does he follow the pattern of Christ out of,.... meaning, what is the inward virtue that empowers him to follow the way of the Lord.

He knows me well, and therefore was hesistant to give an answer, so I made it a little easier, I said, "Do you follow Christ out of you old man or out of your new man?" And he right away declared "Out of my new man."

I then asked him, "So where is this new man found?" And he answered "In me." And so I said "Where in you?" And he said "In my soul." And I said, "In the same soul from which you sin in the old man?"

He could not answer. Basically, he had no real view of the reality of his regenerated spirit.

I said to him, "My brother, in God great wisdom He chose the spirit of a man to be the first aspect of a man that is not only saved, but fully saved and the place into which He comes to abide in us. And this spirit of a man that God finds so important that He choses it as His dwelling place on this earth, and uses it as the springboard for saving the remaining aspects of the man to whom the spirit belongs...... how much do you know about it, how much do you consider it, how much do you appreciate it, and most importantly, how much do you live out of it?"

He had no answer.


Julian, speaking in tongues is nothing,.... being one with God is everything.

Which then should be our only desire?

Being one with God right?

Do you know that in the very instant that a man desires to be one with God this man enters into the very righteousness of God. He is lifted up to the heavens and is seated with Christ.

Where then are the tongues in this moment?

Tongues are nothing, faith is everything. And if there is no faith in the speaking of any type of utterance, understandable or not, then these words are no more than meaningless vanity.

If someone speaks in tongues, its not the speaking that carries the preciousness of God but the faith in which these tongues were spoken.

And actually it goes even deeper, but that is for another time. Suffice to say that there is a very good reason why Paul began his epistle to the Thessalonians with the words "in God the Father, and in the Lord Jesus Christ."



In love,
cj

 

[cj]

The discussion is about the gift of tongues not how it is practiced.

See Free, you can't honestly seperate the two.... life is for living.

This is the problem of theology, the "study" of God, He who sustains and empowers the student.

Who is really studying whom?

There is no way to truly understand the matter of tongues other than in the understanding of the practice of speaking in tongues.

In love,
cj

 

[cj]

I don't think so. I think the heart of the matter is fear of the unknown and ignorance of Scripture's purpose.

I think they are all related.

So tell me: do you understand the Trinity?

Absolutely.

God is triune in His being, three but one.

And the key to this is in understanding God in His economy, as His triune being is for His economy.

Now if you as me what the inner most dynamics are I'll tell you I don't know. But I certainly believe one day all will be revealed.

Be clear though, I didn't say that God is revealed, I said His desire is to be revealed, so this should then be our intention.

The Incarnation?

Again, absolutely.

God became man, divinity and humanity became one being, this is incarnation.

How God creates by merely speaking?

By faith.

These are mysteries and will remain so until Jesus returns.

Jesus has returned..... He's in your regenerated spirit. Or so God tells us in His word.

Does a lack of understanding mean that we are hiding something? Not at all. These are things that are simply beyond our comprehension.

See, this is not what I said.

What I did say is that it should be our desire to reveal God, not keep Him hidden.

You cannot say on the one hand that God moves in mysterious ways but then state that mystery is an attempt to hide God.

Again, that is not what I said.

There is nothing mysterious about the speaking in tongues. No tongue is spoken in the presence of another without an interpretation. And when a man speaks in his private time God is faithful to reveal all things.

His desire is for us to know, to come to the full knowledge of the truth.

God certainly moves in mysterious way...... but what is His answer when we ask with a pure heart, "Lord, that I may see."

Sometimes God moves mysteriously, sometimes he doesn't. That's just the way it is.

No Free, that's not just the way it is, there is far more to our relationship with Him. Or perhaps you don't fully believe that it is His intention for us to be one with Him.


Tell me Free, how did God move in His ark?

And yes, it is very much related to this topic, as today, the ark is the saved man.

In love,
cj


In love,
cj

 

[Free]

And here I was going to chide you for not giving me much of a response. I'll likely get back to you tomorrow cj. Have a great night. God bless.

 

[lovely]

Free wrote:

This was in response to me asking you about what the Bibles says about being slain in the spirit.

And here is the point that Sputnik and cj have also made, but it is one that I believe is based on a misundertanding of part of Scripture's purpose. Whether or not it is in the Bible is irrelevant; it only matters if it goes against the Bible. I use the terms 'non-biblical' to denote those things which simply aren't in the Bible and 'unbiblical' for those things which go against or contradict the Bible.

I see what you are saying, but doesn't God tell us how to worship Him? I admit that there are things that are lawful that are not mentioned in the Bible...and because of that they are not unlawful necessarily...but God does tell us how to worship Him. I am concerned about this point because I do not want to fall into a trap like Saul...obedience is better than sacrifice. I think obedience in how we worship is very important.

Now some have mentioned that there is a difference between Pentecostal tongues, and tongues as in scripture. Is this difference the indwelling of the Holy Spirit? Because, I have some Pentecostal friends who do not believe that a believer is baptized with the Holy Spirit until they speak in tongues, while other believe that they are given some sort of additional power from the Holy Spirit. Or is it the personal practice in the church in a common way...without a prophet to interpret? I guess I need more explanation on this.

I think that 1 Corinthians 14 teaches that counterfeit tongues were present then, at least in Corinth. Paul taught that they should not be used in the church for personal prayer...though this is a common practice. And that they should not be used unless a prophet is there to interpret them. In the same chapter, it says a woman must be silent in the church...but many women claim to be prophets who can interpret tongues. He was also saying that worship should be ordered and not confusion. That was another reason I was asking about the other forms of worship such as laughing, running, and being slain, etc. Are these things orderly? I question that. Is there another way to see this?

I raise these points because I do believe that the early apostles did have the gift of tongues...truly...but they spoke in other languages to unbelievers for purposes of spreading the Gospel...and it was also a fulfillment of prophecy. We communicate in other languages now in an amazing way...the Bible has been translated...and continues to be...so that all nations will hear. I do not understand the personal display of tongues as worship...especially with no prophet present...it seems to completely go against what Paul was teaching Corinth. The confusion was present there...because of these displays...and he was trying to temper them, and the emphasis they placed on this gift. He had instructions on how believers should worship, and also examples of it are in the Bible.

I appreciate this thread, Julian, I rarely consider this issue. And after the experience I had last year with it, I was exasperated by it. I do not believe that I have had the right attitude about this gift because I have let man distort it in my mind and heart. I am happy that God is able to help me stop avoiding it, and address it from a Biblical perspective. Though, I may never have all the answers on this subject.

Free, thank you so much for taking the time to answer me, and so kindly too. I knew you were originally feeling a bit put off...but I wanted to ask my question to you anyway. I wanted to learn from your response just what you meant. Frankly, I do not have much exposure to these things, and come up with more questions than answers. I am truly going to have to look to God to guide me here.

As I read this thread I am praying and asking God to help me address this topic as He would have me do. I am enjoying all the responses...digging into Scripture...and learning. It is very exciting...now that my nervousness about this particular subject has worn off. Thank you all for sharpening me, and aiding God in stretching me.

Blessings

 

[SputnikBoy]

Sputnik: Oh, by the way, Paul was also writing to the Church of Corinth ...NOT US. He would have had no idea that we in the year 2005 would have been reading his epistles. We really need to bear that fact in mind.

Free: All the authors of the Bible did the same. They were writing for their immediate audiences, but God knew what would become of these letters and that we would be reading them.

Sputnik: Granted. However, the contents of the letter Paul wrote to the Church of Corinth were addressing issues concerning THEM, not us. It makes good reading and gives us an insight into what was going on back then. The instruction (with exceptions) aimed at some misguided people in that church really doesn't concern us. Then again, when we hear what goes on in some charismatic churches, maybe it does!

I'll throw another wrench in the works here. It's my understanding that tongues were given for a specific purpose and for a specific period of time. Today they are no longer necessary and, as the Bible indicates by its silence on this particular matter after 1 Corinthians, they eventually ceased. Only in rare instances would God see fit to give someone this ability with which to relate the good news of salvation. It simply DOES NOT happen today, certainly not in Pentecostal churches. We have the complete Bible today and the scriptures are available in pretty well EVERY earthly language. So, no need for tongues. They had their purpose and then they ceased.