Spiritual Gifts, Are They For Today?

[Butch5]

I'm not sure what you're getting at, could you elaborate?

That’s a good point for this thread that I’d expand a little here with my observation:

It’s always important (especially when discussing these deep OP topics) to define our terms, agree on them and stick to them within any particular conversation/discussion/debate. For example, I think there's a meaningful difference between a “sign” and a “gift”, as the Scriptures use them. However, not everyone would agree with me. Therefore, it’s hard to have discussion without stipulating to the definition of the terms, first.

Admittedly, there is some conflation or "intermixing" with these two words' definitions (Gifts/Signs). Secularly from dictionary.com:

I'd say Gift is: something bestowed or acquired without any particular effort by the recipient or without its being earned: "Those extra points he got in the game were a total gift."

but I can see that there's some conflation with its definition for a “Sign”: a token; indication.

because another/similar meaning for “gift” is: a special ability or capacity; natural endowment; talent: “the gift of saying the right thing at the right time.”

But my point here as it relates to the OP topic/question is that the ten “Gifts” listed should not, in my opinion, include the “signs” of successful snake handling. There’s a difference in how the Biblical author intended for them to be understood. That’s pretty clear from Scripture, in my opinion. I wouldn’t see the point/blessing for the “ability” to handle snakes, unless it was specifically for a sign to people that the person was indeed telling the truth (or not).

To me, all these “gifts” listed are worth discussing and studying within either Bible Study or A&T. However, they seem to be beyond elementary study (Salvation 101) and are “graduate level” courses, so to speak.

CF.NET may not be the best environment for this level of graduate, doctrinal study as I’m learning.

Hi Chessman,

I agree that a forum is not a good place to learn. In answering the OP I posted an article I wrote since it was much to long to post here. It would have taken numerous posts. So, I posted a link to it. If anyone was interested in reading it that was fine, if not that's fine too. However, rather than answering the same questions over and over I simply pointed to the link.

Regarding the gifts/signs my point is that the two I see claimed the most are tongues and healing. Healing is listed as gift in 1Cor. 12, however, it's also listed as a sign in Mark 16. Since it listed as both I don't see why the others wouldn't be either. I do, however, agree with your idea that we need to define the terms.

 

[Sparkey]

If you're not interested in what I have to say whether it is in individual posts or an article why did you respond to my posts?

Why put words in my mouth. Frankly, I've been in my classes at college and doing homework and other things of that nature. Does this mean you may speak for me? No.

Pardon me for putting it that way but trying to transfer your burden to defend your statements made here to me so that I must go there or I am seen as "disingenuous" is not acceptable to me.

First I hear that I am being "disingenuous" and now I'm told that I am not interested. But my statement that you have failed to gives significant support for your allegations made here remains unchallenged. I'll go read again, but that does not persuade others, now does it? Have you given any thought to what I mentioned before, that it would not be that much trouble to respond to some very specific questions without undue evasion?

Here's one:

They are signs, not gifts, and unless you have spoken to every Christian around the globe, you really don't have a point.

I'd rather just live my life than get into a large debate trying to do the impossible. I won't convince you. That's okay. Kindly refrain from taunting me though. Like I've said, I have read your blurb and don't like being called names just because I don't agree with you.

 

[Butch5]

If you're not interested in what I have to say whether it is in individual posts or an article why did you respond to my posts?

Why put words in my mouth. Frankly, I've been in my classes at college and doing homework and other things of that nature. Does this mean you may speak for me? No.

Pardon me for putting it that way but trying to transfer your burden to defend your statements made here to me so that I must go there or I am seen as "disingenuous" is not acceptable to me.

First I hear that I am being "disingenuous" and now I'm told that I am not interested. But my statement that you have failed to gives significant support for your allegations made here remains unchallenged. I'll go read again, but that does not persuade others, now does it? Have you given any thought to what I mentioned before, that it would not be that much trouble to respond to some very specific questions without undue evasion?

Here's one:

They are signs, not gifts, and unless you have spoken to every Christian around the globe, you really don't have a point.

I'd rather just live my life than get into a large debate trying to do the impossible. I won't convince you. That's okay. Kindly refrain from taunting me though. Like I've said, I have read your blurb and don't like being called names just because I don't agree with you.

Are you serious? I never called you any names. I even said you may not have been disingenuous as you may not have seen where I posted the link. Secondly I didn't say you weren't interested, I said "IF" you weren't interested why did you respond. It seems to me that you're not really reading what I've said, so I'll not be continuing this discussion.

 

[Sparkey]

Butch5,

On Page 7 of your document you've quoted Acts 10:44-46. The comment is then made:

​

[page 7] "According to Luke the Holy Spirit Was being given by the laying on of the apostles’ hands."

[emphasis mine]

[page 10]...In this instance Paul uses a different word. He says “with” the laying on of the hands of the presbytery. The Greek word translated “with” is “meta” it means with, as in to accompany. The idea is that Paul and the presbytery laid hands on Timothy but the Spiritual gift as came through Paul as he said, it was through his hands...

Here is the quoted Scripture as mentioned by Farrell:

44 While Peter yet spake these words, the Holy Ghost fell on all them which heard the word.
45 And they of the circumcision which believed were astonished, as many as came with Peter, because that on the Gentiles also was poured out the gift of the Holy Ghost.
46 For they heard them speak with tongues, and magnify God.

What have we here? Does the Scripture give evidence to the statement or does it introduce a complication? It appears to me as a complication. The two-edged Sword, also known as the Word of God, states that the "Holy Ghost fell on all them which heard the word." Further, the Word of God here states this happened, "While Peter yet spake..."

My question to Farrell would be, where in the Scripture, may we look to see that Peter, while speaking, also laid hands on those in Samaria as he has alleged Luke to have declared?

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While speaking in the same area (same page of the document linked previously by Butch5) Farrell also appears to conflate the truth stating, again on [page 7 of the 15 page document], "According to Luke the Spirit “falling on” someone is receiving Spiritual gifts."

My understanding is that the term "falling on" may be used synonymous with the term "Baptism in the Holy Ghost," or as Peter later says, "...as well as we..."
[Act 10:44-47 KJV]

44 While Peter yet spake these words, the Holy Ghost fell on all them which heard the word. 45 And they of the circumcision which believed were astonished, as many as came with Peter, because that on the Gentiles also was poured out the gift of the Holy Ghost. 46 For they heard them speak with tongues, and magnify God. Then answered Peter, 47 Can any man forbid water, that these should not be baptized, which have received the Holy Ghost as well as we?
​

The point here is that the first Baptism our "outpouring" of the Holy Ghost on the Day of Pentecost was not accompanied by the laying on of hands. Further we are told how Peter knew they (the Gentiles) had been filled with the Holy Ghost, for they heard them speak with tongues, and magnify God. No mention is made by Peter for his knowledge of this being due to the "laying of hands," whatsoever.

According to my understanding of the premise of the article (and pray, correct me if I am wrong in this), we might now do well to consider "Magnifying God" to be a "Sign" and a "Gift" and may also feel free to draw further conclusions about what "magnifying God" may mean in the greater scheme of things???

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Much of what is said in the 15 page essay deals with another familiar subject, "The coming of the Perfect" and attempts to explain (rather well, I'd say) what Paul was speaking about. There may be some fine points that I am not in complete harmony with, like the assumption that "the Perfect" which is promised is in fact the Return of Jesus, which is indeed implied, claimed but not fully supported. Still, this particular thread on our forum here isn't about that. No need to go there, right?

So you're interested in expressing your established opinion about Believers? I'm not sure what that has to do with the subject under discussion. That being "Spiritual Gifts" and if they are "for today" or not. I am convinced that you are certain about it, but as we have previously learned, this does not necessarily constitute what the Word of God says. Would we like to consult an expert? I'm thinking Peter. He witnessed a number of things that may be relevant.

I'm not sure what you're getting at, could you elaborate?

I've tried to elaborate, have read your essay, have quoted it. I've also read your recent comment:

It seems to me that you're not really reading what I've said, so I'll not be continuing this discussion.

Pardon me for my part in what "seems to you" to be obvious. It is as I have explained, I am a full time student, and volunteer Moderator here. I'm also a grandpa and it is Springtime, meaning there are many things to do. Not trying to complain overly, but instead asking you to deal in patience as I too shall try to deal with you.

Then Peter opened his mouth and said:
Then Peter opened his mouth, and said, Of a truth I perceive that God is no respecter of persons:

Act 10:35
But in every nation he that feareth him, and worketh righteousness, is accepted with him.