Spiritual Gifts, Are They For Today?

[Butch5]

The Miracles were signs for the Jews to see that Jesus was the Messiah. It was prophesied that the Messiah would heal the sick, give sight, to the blind, that the deaf would hear, etc. When John the Baptist was wondering about Jesus he sent some disciples to Jesus and asked, are you the one? Jesus replied.

19 And John calling unto him two of his disciples sent them to Jesus, saying, Art thou he that should come? or look we for another?
20 When the men were come unto him, they said, John Baptist hath sent us unto thee, saying, Art thou he that should come? or look we for another?
21 And in that same hour he cured many of their infirmities and plagues, and of evil spirits; and unto many that were blind he gave sight.
22 Then Jesus answering said unto them, Go your way, and tell John what things ye have seen and heard; how that the blind see, the lame walk, the lepers are cleansed, the deaf hear, the dead are raised, to the poor the gospel is preached. (Luk 7:19-22 KJV)

He didn't answer John's question directly, but rather told John's disciples to report to John what they had seen, the miracles. This would assure John that Jesus was the Messiah because these miralces were prophesied in the OT of the Messiah and His kingdom.

 

[Doulos Iesou]

The Miracles were signs for the Jews to see that Jesus was the Messiah. It was prophesied that the Messiah would heal the sick, give sight, to the blind, that the deaf would hear, etc. When John the Baptist was wondering about Jesus he sent some disciples to Jesus and asked, are you the one? Jesus replied.

19 And John calling unto him two of his disciples sent them to Jesus, saying, Art thou he that should come? or look we for another?
20 When the men were come unto him, they said, John Baptist hath sent us unto thee, saying, Art thou he that should come? or look we for another?
21 And in that same hour he cured many of their infirmities and plagues, and of evil spirits; and unto many that were blind he gave sight.
22 Then Jesus answering said unto them, Go your way, and tell John what things ye have seen and heard; how that the blind see, the lame walk, the lepers are cleansed, the deaf hear, the dead are raised, to the poor the gospel is preached. (Luk 7:19-22 KJV)

He didn't answer John's question directly, but rather told John's disciples to report to John what they had seen, the miracles. This would assure John that Jesus was the Messiah because these miralces were prophesied in the OT of the Messiah and His kingdom.

Correct Butch5, and this is not incompatible with my theology at all, but I submit that it is likely incompatible with yours (with all due respect). The Messiah brought what? The Kingdom of God on earth, and we are to come into that story and continue to seek God's will be done on earth as it is in heaven, that God's Kingdom come.. his will be done.

Ultimately, that Kingdom is realized with the new creation, where the heavenly Jerusalem will descend on the new earth and there will be a new heavens and new earth where the kingdom of God will be fully established. In the NT, the future kingdom, the future eternal life breaks into the present with the coming Messiah who was not to come once as Israel had thought, but twice. The first time to bring salvation and the second Justice for his people and for the wicked. That is why I believe in healing for today, and that it wasn't simply a validation of authority for the apostles and Jesus. The gifts of healing were said to be FOR THE CHURCH, not simply certain individuals in the 1st Century. For, we are to bring God's kingdom where he is making all things new right now in Creations current fallen and broken state, to bring that healing through the BODY OF CHRIST, filled with the Spirit as the temple of God. To walk in the way Jesus walked, and to perform the works that he performed... and even GREATER THINGS!

The thing I don't think you are understanding is that Jesus' healing ministry did not have just one single purpose (to reveal the Messiah) no one denies that.

 

[Doulos Iesou]

I agree with this too. One of the professors in my daughter's classes said this same thing. He said that there is the five fold ministry and none are a healing ministry. But the Lord uses faithful people to heal as He wills. He said if more people were willing and faithful there would be no need for the few that people flock too.
I chuckled, and the frauds would be out of business.

It seems that you have had some great teaching on this matter. My Senior Pastor (who believes in the gifts) walked me through a period of when I was quite skeptical, but he was able to answer a lot of questions and objections that we see here. It's just alarming how those who don't believe the gifts are for today simply don't know the passages too well that deal with the gifts... I suppose when you make the gifts irrelevant, why bother?

 

[Rollo Tamasi]

I speak in tongues.

 

[Atonement]

Greeting to you all

I still believe that God can pour out His spirit and give gifts of His Spirit to whom He desires, in order to fulfill whatever needs to me accomplished; but doesn't it also say in Scripture if God has given the gift of tongues, that there should also be an interpreter? If not, then they that speak in tongues are to remain silent?

1 Corinthians 14:5 I would that you all spoke with tongues, but rather that you prophesied: for greater is he that prophesies than he that speaks with tongues, except he interpret, that the church may receive edifying.

1 Corinthians 14:28 But if there be no interpreter, let him keep silence in the church; and let him speak to himself, and to God.

When we see the gift of tongues used in Scripture, it is used to edify the Church, but how is that possible if no one can not interpret the one speaking in tongues? One may have the gift of tongues, but my understanding is that it's just one of many gifts and this gift seems to be lease of them all when looking at it in perspective.

Spiritual Gifts

Romans 12:6-8

Prophecy
Serving
Teaching
Exhortation
Giving
Leadership
Mercy

1 Corinthians 12:8-10

Word of wisdom
Word of knowledge
Faith
Gifts of healings
Miracles
Prophecy
Distinguishing between spirits
Tongues
Interpretation of tongues

1 Corinthians 12:28

Apostle
Prophet
Teacher
Miracles
Kinds of healings
Helps
Administration
Tongues

Ephesians 4:11

Apostle
Prophet
Evangelist
Pastor-teacher

God Bless

 

[Sparkey]

Really? How does it [the Gift of Tongues (glossolalia)] work?

I've never been used in the assembly in the operation of that particular gift. But I do recall one time... And that story requires a little set-up so pardon me as I speak to set the stage.

It was more than 40 years ago and during a well remembered "Christmas service," that I felt the Holy Spirit move. I felt a strong urge to stand. It was not something that was 'normal' or 'typical' and I wondered about it. My spirit was moved to prayer because I wanted to seek to serve the Lord. So what then? Did I remain seated? No. But here is where a little more background is needed. My family and the family of my best friend were seated together as we worshiped together the Lord. We were attending a church where "music ministry" was known to be a calling that included a call to holiness. Those who minister (serve) by giving their voice to the Lord were admonished to allow the Lord especially and ask Him to sanctify their lives so that their voice might be better able to communicate and carry others toward the Lord. Some may not agree with this, that's okay. The church that we attended then also preached holiness for all, and not just those involved in the ministry but that's beside the point. My point is that it took faith on my part (trust in God) for me to stand that day.

And stand I did. My feet carried me right up to the front and I walked onto the stage (I believe under the prompting and direction of the Holy Spirit who is Utterly Holy and apart from sin) and I took my place there on stage among the group of ministers who served the Lord in song. Was I a trained voice? Not one bit. Did that take courage? No. It took a meek spirit who does not question the Lord. So, what did that Pastor do? It was subtle. He caught the eye of another brother who was also singing and signaled him to move to stand by me. He may have questioned my strange act.

So the brother moved under the direction and guidance of that Spirit Filled pastor. He stood near me and then? Well, our voices blended together and I found myself lifted in the Spirit so that my song and sound was supported and strengthened both by my brother and also (I believe) by God. After the song, the Pastor invited others to move to the front and to join in and sing as the Spirit moved them.

Really? How does it [the Gift of Tongues (glossolalia)] work?

That was a rather long-winded set up and I might apologize for it, except I still believe that it is necessary and that I am being guided even at this very moment in my reply. You see, I've never been prompted to stand and speak out in Tongues in the assembly as the Bible describes. But I have been led to speak. And I feel that this leading was to be used in the gift of Interpretation of Tongues. Another had spoken (yes, in a language that I could not understand) and there was a moment of silence where all prayer was directed in unity to the Lord that we might hear well His word. Then and after my prayer was joined to others, I felt that same prompting to stand. I questioned it and wondered what this could mean. Prayer was offered, "Lord? Me??" and during that moment that quickly followed, I was given a very real sense of what the message meant. As I started to stand, I heard the voice of another who was giving the Interpretation of what had been strange to me only a moment before.

That voice did not use the exact words that were given to me, but they did communicate that exact meaning. I was content to remain seated and did not speak except after service where I went to the sister who stood and spoke the interpretation to explain and question what she may have seen or known about it. She said that it is often the case where the Lord gives "confirmation" to others and that she believed that was what was happening. She also encouraged me to chase after that particular gift because she believed that the Lord planned on using me in some manner that would involve this "interpretation" gift that I had in part experienced.

Since that time, I've not been prompted again to stand and speak. So today, more than 40 years later, I wonder if the Lord still desires me to be used in the Gift of Interpretation and do stand ready to speak.

I thank you for your question and hope that my insight may prove of use to you as well as to others.

Cordially,
Sparrow (one who longs to sing)

 

[Butch5]

The Miracles were signs for the Jews to see that Jesus was the Messiah. It was prophesied that the Messiah would heal the sick, give sight, to the blind, that the deaf would hear, etc. When John the Baptist was wondering about Jesus he sent some disciples to Jesus and asked, are you the one? Jesus replied.

19 And John calling unto him two of his disciples sent them to Jesus, saying, Art thou he that should come? or look we for another?
20 When the men were come unto him, they said, John Baptist hath sent us unto thee, saying, Art thou he that should come? or look we for another?
21 And in that same hour he cured many of their infirmities and plagues, and of evil spirits; and unto many that were blind he gave sight.
22 Then Jesus answering said unto them, Go your way, and tell John what things ye have seen and heard; how that the blind see, the lame walk, the lepers are cleansed, the deaf hear, the dead are raised, to the poor the gospel is preached. (Luk 7:19-22 KJV)

He didn't answer John's question directly, but rather told John's disciples to report to John what they had seen, the miracles. This would assure John that Jesus was the Messiah because these miralces were prophesied in the OT of the Messiah and His kingdom.

Correct Butch5, and this is not incompatible with my theology at all, but I submit that it is likely incompatible with yours (with all due respect). The Messiah brought what? The Kingdom of God on earth, and we are to come into that story and continue to seek God's will be done on earth as it is in heaven, that God's Kingdom come.. his will be done.

Ultimately, that Kingdom is realized with the new creation, where the heavenly Jerusalem will descend on the new earth and there will be a new heavens and new earth where the kingdom of God will be fully established. In the NT, the future kingdom, the future eternal life breaks into the present with the coming Messiah who was not to come once as Israel had thought, but twice. The first time to bring salvation and the second Justice for his people and for the wicked. That is why I believe in healing for today, and that it wasn't simply a validation of authority for the apostles and Jesus. The gifts of healing were said to be FOR THE CHURCH, not simply certain individuals in the 1st Century. For, we are to bring God's kingdom where he is making all things new right now in Creations current fallen and broken state, to bring that healing through the BODY OF CHRIST, filled with the Spirit as the temple of God. To walk in the way Jesus walked, and to perform the works that he performed... and even GREATER THINGS!

The thing I don't think you are understanding is that Jesus' healing ministry did not have just one single purpose (to reveal the Messiah) no one denies that.

Hi Doulos,

As far as healing, I already said that God does miracles. However, I don't believe He gives that gift or the other supernatural gifts as He did in the NT times. Since you've stated a few times that there is another purpose for the gifts could you please make that case from Scripture? I've already shown from Isaiah that the gifts and their purpose were prophesied. They were signs of Messiah's kingdom, so while He was here the signs were here. However, Paul specifically said they would cease.

I don't believe that God is restoring the earth at this time and Jesus statement about greater things, I believe was in relation to numbers, not greater miracles. What greater miracle could one do than to raise the dead? The apostles, however, being more in number and having a longer ministry would do more miracles than Jesus did while He was here.

 

[Deborah13]

She said that it is often the case where the Lord gives "confirmation" to others and that she believed that was what was happening.

My daughter was at a church a few years ago where this same thing happened. She had never seen it before. A lady in the church who my daughter knew spoke the interpretation and someone on the other side of the church just stood and said, "I confirm the message." That lady latter said that usually she was not called to give the message but would get the same understanding and confirm.
Everything in order and of God.

Thank you for sharing, Sparrow.

 

[Butch5]

I have a question, has anyone who has heard someone speak in tongues actually heard the conformation in the message? There is a way to tell if the message is from God or not. The Scripture tell us how.

 

[chessman]

But I do recall one time... And that story requires a little set-up so pardon me as I speak to set the stage.

It was more than 40 years ago and during a well remembered "Christmas service," that I felt the Holy Spirit move. I felt a strong urge to stand. It was not something that was 'normal' or 'typical' and I wondered about it.

...

Did I remain seated? No.
Cordially,
Sparrow (one who longs to sing)

This coming from a man with 5855 posts

That's a joke! At least i chuckled. Seriously, ur posts r enlightening. Thanks.

 

[Deborah13]

The Scripture tell us how.

Butch, which Scripture are you speaking of? The is one about prophecy being fulfilled I think but I can't think of another.
In the church, messages are not always some kind of prophecy. Sometimes they are words of encouragement, etc.

 

[Butch5]

The Scripture tell us how.

Butch, which Scripture are you speaking of? The is one about prophecy being fulfilled I think but I can't think of another.
In the church, messages are not always some kind of prophecy. Sometimes they are words of encouragement, etc.

Hi Deborah,

The apostle John said to test the spirit to see if there are from God. Do you know anyone who does this?

2 By this you know the Spirit of God: Every spirit that confesses that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is of God,
3 and every spirit that does not confess that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is not of God. And this is the spirit of the Antichrist, which you have heard was coming, and is now already in the world. (1Jo 4:2-3 NKJ)

I have never heard anyone do this.

 

[Sparkey]

Do you know anyone who does this?

I have never heard anyone do this.

Greetings, Butch5. Glad to meet you. In the future you will likely need to amend your statement to, "I've only heard of one person who alleges that he/she does this."

As I've said, nice to meet you. Oh, if you don't include yourself in that list of people who obey John's admonition to test the spirits, I'd be curious to hear why not. I'm assuming that you meant to say, "With the possible exception of myself, I've never heard anyone..." right?

Cordially,
Sparrow

 

[Butch5]

I have a question for those who say the supernatural gifts are still active. I've had this discussion quite a few times and I've pointed this out and not gotten a acceptable answer. It has been my experience in discussing this that the gifts claimed are always the subjective ones, i.e. healing, tongues, etc. These gifts are relatively easy to fake. I have not yet seen anyone who claims two signs in Mark. My question is do any of you claim these or know people who do?

18 "they will take up serpents; and if they drink anything deadly, it will by no means hurt them; they will lay hands on the sick, and they will recover." (Mar 16:18 NKJ)

 

[Butch5]

Do you know anyone who does this?

I have never heard anyone do this.

Greetings, Butch5. Glad to meet you. In the future you will likely need to amend your statement to, "I've only heard of one person who alleges that he/she does this."

As I've said, nice to meet you. Oh, if you don't include yourself in that list of people who obey John's admonition to test the spirits, I'd be curious to hear why not. I'm assuming that you meant to say, "With the possible exception of myself, I've never heard anyone..." right?

Cordially,
Sparrow

Hello,

I meant of those I spoke with.

 

[Sparkey]

This coming from a man with 5855 posts

That's a joke! At least i chuckled. Seriously, ur posts r enlightening. Thanks.

You're welcome and I too appreciate the humor (irony) you point to here. It is funny, isn't it? Stick around, post-count 127. That's my favorite number of all (well, maybe one of them). I hope to hear more from you.

~Spar

 

[Deborah13]

The Scripture tell us how.

Butch, which Scripture are you speaking of? The is one about prophecy being fulfilled I think but I can't think of another.
In the church, messages are not always some kind of prophecy. Sometimes they are words of encouragement, etc.

Hi Deborah,

The apostle John said to test the spirit to see if there are from God. Do you know anyone who does this?

2 By this you know the Spirit of God: Every spirit that confesses that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is of God,
3 and every spirit that does not confess that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is not of God. And this is the spirit of the Antichrist, which you have heard was coming, and is now already in the world. (1Jo 4:2-3 NKJ)

I have never heard anyone do this.

Hi Butch, thanks for your response.

I only time I would accept a message as being from God is if I knew that person profession of faith, as being that Jesus come in the flesh, and believed that He died on the cross for our sins, and that He was raised from the dead, ascended, and sits at the right hand of the Father. I do not believe prophecies that are given at events or by TV evangelists, etc. I do not deny that they may be correct but I don't receive them as truth.

 

[Sparkey]

18 "they will take up serpents; and if they drink anything deadly, it will by no means hurt them; they will lay hands on the sick, and they will recover." (Mar 16:18 NKJ)

Sounds like three to me. One, that they will take up serpents. Two, that if they drink any deadly thing it won't hurt them and three, they will lay hands on the sick and the sick will recover. I also note that you are correct to say that these three things are "signs". But when I read, they are seen as signs of them that believe.

Here, let's look:

[Mar 16:16-20 KJV] 16 He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned. 17 And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues; 18 They shall take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them; they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover. 19 So then after the Lord had spoken unto them, he was received up into heaven, and sat on the right hand of God. 20 And they went forth, and preached every where, the Lord working with [them], and confirming the word with signs following. Amen.

That is what was said, "He that believes and is baptized shall be saved... AND: these signs shall follow... Follow who? Follow them that believe.

That word is true and it has the emphasis of being one of the last things that was said before the Lord was received up into heaven. What else does the Holy Spirit speak of as "signs"? Do we see any that relate to the Baptism of the Holy Spirit or show that there was a difference or distinction made between the signs that went with them who believed and those who 10 days later received the baptism on the day of Pentecost?

That's a good question too, right?

 

[Free]

I have a question for those who say the supernatural gifts are still active. I've had this discussion quite a few times and I've pointed this out and not gotten a acceptable answer. It has been my experience in discussing this that the gifts claimed are always the subjective ones, i.e. healing, tongues, etc. These gifts are relatively easy to fake. I have not yet seen anyone who claims two signs in Mark. My question is do any of you claim these or know people who do?

18 "they will take up serpents; and if they drink anything deadly, it will by no means hurt them; they will lay hands on the sick, and they will recover." (Mar 16:18 NKJ)

Firstly, this passage is questionable and generally accepted as being a later addition. Secondly, Paul was bitten by a snake to no ill effect. Thirdly, spurious or not, we simply cannot take this as commanding believers to "take up serpents" and "drink [something] deadly." That would be absurd. These are "signs [that] will accompany those who believe." (ESV)

 

[Deborah13]

I have a question for those who say the supernatural gifts are still active. I've had this discussion quite a few times and I've pointed this out and not gotten a acceptable answer. It has been my experience in discussing this that the gifts claimed are always the subjective ones, i.e. healing, tongues, etc. These gifts are relatively easy to fake. I have not yet seen anyone who claims two signs in Mark. My question is do any of you claim these or know people who do?

18 "they will take up serpents; and if they drink anything deadly, it will by no means hurt them; they will lay hands on the sick, and they will recover." (Mar 16:18 NKJ)

I don't believe they are listed as the Gifts of the Spirit. There were many signs and wonders but not all are the gifts spoken of in 1 Corinthians 12.
Even in the OT God used signs and wonders to cause unbelievers to believe something. We saw it in Egypt before the Exodus. I liked the one with Aaron's rod (serpent)devouring the Pharaoh's two. That got some attention. Or the writing on the wall. So we see with Paul and the asp the amazement of the people. Not everything is written so we don't know, but I sure an going to ask, I wonder if we'll be able to ask to view history somehow? Sorry got off topic rambling thoughts! Some of the same a mentioned in Mark (the gifts). But some of the signs are not mentioned in the Spiritual Gifts. So I think there is a difference.
People who go around playing with snakes in church services are extremists maybe, I don't want to say they are not Biblical but that is not a gift that was mentioned as being part of a church function. How would it edify the church to play with snakes or drink poison. I don't think were things that were to be done intentionally. re Paul