Spiritual Gifts, Are They For Today?

[Butch5]

18 "they will take up serpents; and if they drink anything deadly, it will by no means hurt them; they will lay hands on the sick, and they will recover." (Mar 16:18 NKJ)

Sounds like three to me. One, that they will take up serpents. Two, that if they drink any deadly thing it won't hurt them and three, they will lay hands on the sick and the sick will recover. I also note that you are correct to say that these three things are "signs". But when I read, they are seen as signs of them that believe.

Here, let's look:

[Mar 16:16-20 KJV] 16 He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned. 17 And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues; 18 They shall take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them; they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover. 19 So then after the Lord had spoken unto them, he was received up into heaven, and sat on the right hand of God. 20 And they went forth, and preached every where, the Lord working with [them], and confirming the word with signs following. Amen.

That is what was said, "He that believes and is baptized shall be saved... AND: these signs shall follow... Follow who? Follow them that believe.

That word is true and it has the emphasis of being one of the last things that was said before the Lord was received up into heaven. What else does the Holy Spirit speak of as "signs"? Do we see any that relate to the Baptism of the Holy Spirit or show that there was a difference or distinction made between the signs that went with them who believed and those who 10 days later received the baptism on the day of Pentecost?

That's a good question too, right?

I'm not sure what you're getting at but my point was that no one seems to claim those "two" signs that were bolded.

 

[Butch5]

I have a question for those who say the supernatural gifts are still active. I've had this discussion quite a few times and I've pointed this out and not gotten a acceptable answer. It has been my experience in discussing this that the gifts claimed are always the subjective ones, i.e. healing, tongues, etc. These gifts are relatively easy to fake. I have not yet seen anyone who claims two signs in Mark. My question is do any of you claim these or know people who do?

18 "they will take up serpents; and if they drink anything deadly, it will by no means hurt them; they will lay hands on the sick, and they will recover." (Mar 16:18 NKJ)

I don't believe they are listed as the Gifts of the Spirit. There were many signs and wonders but not all are the gifts spoken of in 1 Corinthians 12.
Even in the OT God used signs and wonders to cause unbelievers to believe something. We saw it in Egypt before the Exodus. I liked the one with Aaron's rod (serpent)devouring the Pharaoh's two. That got some attention. Or the writing on the wall. So we see with Paul and the asp the amazement of the people. Not everything is written so we don't know, but I sure an going to ask, I wonder if we'll be able to ask to view history somehow? Sorry got off topic rambling thoughts!

Hi Deborah,

I think there are interchangeable as healing is listed as both a sign and a gift.

 

[Butch5]

I have a question for those who say the supernatural gifts are still active. I've had this discussion quite a few times and I've pointed this out and not gotten a acceptable answer. It has been my experience in discussing this that the gifts claimed are always the subjective ones, i.e. healing, tongues, etc. These gifts are relatively easy to fake. I have not yet seen anyone who claims two signs in Mark. My question is do any of you claim these or know people who do?

18 "they will take up serpents; and if they drink anything deadly, it will by no means hurt them; they will lay hands on the sick, and they will recover." (Mar 16:18 NKJ)

Firstly, this passage is questionable and generally accepted as being a later addition. Secondly, Paul was bitten by a snake to no ill effect. Thirdly, spurious or not, we simply cannot take this as commanding believers to "take up serpents" and "drink [something] deadly." That would be absurd. These are "signs [that] will accompany those who believe." (ESV)

I don't question the passage since quotes containing this passage predate the oldest manuscripts we have. Secondly, I wasn't suggesting it was command. What I said was that of all those claiming the gifts are active and those who claim to have gifts, no one ever claims these. It seems odd to me that the subjective gifts, the ones that are easily faked, are claimed yet these two which would provide definitive proof of the gifts no one claims. If the gifts are still active why not these two?

 

[Deborah13]

I have a question for those who say the supernatural gifts are still active. I've had this discussion quite a few times and I've pointed this out and not gotten a acceptable answer. It has been my experience in discussing this that the gifts claimed are always the subjective ones, i.e. healing, tongues, etc. These gifts are relatively easy to fake. I have not yet seen anyone who claims two signs in Mark. My question is do any of you claim these or know people who do?

18 "they will take up serpents; and if they drink anything deadly, it will by no means hurt them; they will lay hands on the sick, and they will recover." (Mar 16:18 NKJ)

I don't believe they are listed as the Gifts of the Spirit. There were many signs and wonders but not all are the gifts spoken of in 1 Corinthians 12.
Even in the OT God used signs and wonders to cause unbelievers to believe something. We saw it in Egypt before the Exodus. I liked the one with Aaron's rod (serpent)devouring the Pharaoh's two. That got some attention. Or the writing on the wall. So we see with Paul and the asp the amazement of the people. Not everything is written so we don't know, but I sure an going to ask, I wonder if we'll be able to ask to view history somehow? Sorry got off topic rambling thoughts!

Hi Deborah,

I think there are interchangeable as healing is listed as both a sign and a gift.

I added to my last post to you. I'll give you time to read that.

 

[Free]

I have a question for those who say the supernatural gifts are still active. I've had this discussion quite a few times and I've pointed this out and not gotten a acceptable answer. It has been my experience in discussing this that the gifts claimed are always the subjective ones, i.e. healing, tongues, etc. These gifts are relatively easy to fake. I have not yet seen anyone who claims two signs in Mark. My question is do any of you claim these or know people who do?

18 "they will take up serpents; and if they drink anything deadly, it will by no means hurt them; they will lay hands on the sick, and they will recover." (Mar 16:18 NKJ)

Firstly, this passage is questionable and generally accepted as being a later addition. Secondly, Paul was bitten by a snake to no ill effect. Thirdly, spurious or not, we simply cannot take this as commanding believers to "take up serpents" and "drink [something] deadly." That would be absurd. These are "signs [that] will accompany those who believe." (ESV)

I don't question the passage since quotes containing this passage predate the oldest manuscripts we have. Secondly, I wasn't suggesting it was command. What I said was that of all those claiming the gifts are active and those who claim to have gifts, no one ever claims these. It seems odd to me that the subjective gifts, the ones that are easily faked, are claimed yet these two which would provide definitive proof of the gifts no one claims. If the gifts are still active why not these two?

Most of us simply have not heard of them happening but that certainly does not mean that they don't happen.

 

[Butch5]

The Scripture tell us how.

Butch, which Scripture are you speaking of? The is one about prophecy being fulfilled I think but I can't think of another.
In the church, messages are not always some kind of prophecy. Sometimes they are words of encouragement, etc.

Hi Deborah,

The apostle John said to test the spirit to see if there are from God. Do you know anyone who does this?

2 By this you know the Spirit of God: Every spirit that confesses that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is of God,
3 and every spirit that does not confess that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is not of God. And this is the spirit of the Antichrist, which you have heard was coming, and is now already in the world. (1Jo 4:2-3 NKJ)

I have never heard anyone do this.

Hi Butch, thanks for your response.

I only time I would accept a message as being from God is if I knew that person profession of faith, as being that Jesus come in the flesh, and believed that He died on the cross for our sins, and that He was raised from the dead, ascended, and sits at the right hand of the Father. I do not believe prophecies that are given at events or by TV evangelists, etc. I do not deny that they may be correct but I don't receive them as truth.

Hi Deborah,

John said the spirit would confess that Jesus is the Christ and has come in the flesh. We have an example of this. When Jesus appears to John on the island of Patmos He said,

18 I am he that liveth, and was dead; and, behold, I am alive for evermore, Amen; and have the keys of hell and of death. (Rev 1:18 KJV)

 

[Butch5]

I have a question for those who say the supernatural gifts are still active. I've had this discussion quite a few times and I've pointed this out and not gotten a acceptable answer. It has been my experience in discussing this that the gifts claimed are always the subjective ones, i.e. healing, tongues, etc. These gifts are relatively easy to fake. I have not yet seen anyone who claims two signs in Mark. My question is do any of you claim these or know people who do?

18 "they will take up serpents; and if they drink anything deadly, it will by no means hurt them; they will lay hands on the sick, and they will recover." (Mar 16:18 NKJ)

Firstly, this passage is questionable and generally accepted as being a later addition. Secondly, Paul was bitten by a snake to no ill effect. Thirdly, spurious or not, we simply cannot take this as commanding believers to "take up serpents" and "drink [something] deadly." That would be absurd. These are "signs [that] will accompany those who believe." (ESV)

I don't question the passage since quotes containing this passage predate the oldest manuscripts we have. Secondly, I wasn't suggesting it was command. What I said was that of all those claiming the gifts are active and those who claim to have gifts, no one ever claims these. It seems odd to me that the subjective gifts, the ones that are easily faked, are claimed yet these two which would provide definitive proof of the gifts no one claims. If the gifts are still active why not these two?

Most of us simply have not heard of them happening but that certainly does not mean that they don't happen.

Like I said, I've spoken to quite a few people on this subject and none have claimed these two nor know anyone who has.

 

[Free]

I don't question the passage since quotes containing this passage predate the oldest manuscripts we have. Secondly, I wasn't suggesting it was command. What I said was that of all those claiming the gifts are active and those who claim to have gifts, no one ever claims these. It seems odd to me that the subjective gifts, the ones that are easily faked, are claimed yet these two which would provide definitive proof of the gifts no one claims. If the gifts are still active why not these two?

Most of us simply have not heard of them happening but that certainly does not mean that they don't happen.

Like I said, I've spoken to quite a few people on this subject and none have claimed these two nor know anyone who has.

They are signs, not gifts, and unless you have spoken to every Christian around the globe, you really don't have a point.

 

[Deborah13]

What I said was that of all those claiming the gifts are active and those who claim to have gifts, no one ever claims these.

Butch the Gifts of the Spirit to the Church are for edification in some way to those who already believe, for the most part. They are not necessarily a sign and wonder and Paul does not speak of them in these terms. There is no where the Bible refers to being a snake handler or someone who drinks poison on purpose, Paul was accidently bit by a snake, it should have killed him being an asp, he just shook it off and went on. They were amazed. He didn't do it on purpose. If people would believe some of the stories they hear today of tragedies that don't happen because something usual occurred they may see that God still is in the miracle business.

 

[Sparkey]

18 "they will take up serpents; and if they drink anything deadly, it will by no means hurt them; they will lay hands on the sick, and they will recover." (Mar 16:18 NKJ)

Sounds like three to me. One, that they will take up serpents. Two, that if they drink any deadly thing it won't hurt them and three, they will lay hands on the sick and the sick will recover. I also note that you are correct to say that these three things are "signs". But when I read, they are seen as signs of them that believe.

Here, let's look:

[Mar 16:16-20 KJV] 16 He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned. 17 And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues; 18 They shall take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them; they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover. 19 So then after the Lord had spoken unto them, he was received up into heaven, and sat on the right hand of God. 20 And they went forth, and preached every where, the Lord working with [them], and confirming the word with signs following. Amen.

That is what was said, "He that believes and is baptized shall be saved... AND: these signs shall follow... Follow who? Follow them that believe.

That word is true and it has the emphasis of being one of the last things that was said before the Lord was received up into heaven. What else does the Holy Spirit speak of as "signs"? Do we see any that relate to the Baptism of the Holy Spirit or show that there was a difference or distinction made between the signs that went with them who believed and those who 10 days later received the baptism on the day of Pentecost?

That's a good question too, right?

I'm not sure what you're getting at but my point was that no one seems to claim those "two" signs that were bolded.

So what is your conclusion? You've pointed to something but I don't follow you. Can you explain what you mean?

 

[Butch5]

What I said was that of all those claiming the gifts are active and those who claim to have gifts, no one ever claims these.

Butch the Gifts of the Spirit to the Church are for edification in some way to those who already believe, for the most part. They are not necessarily a sign and wonder and Paul does not speak of them in these terms. There is no where the Bible refers to being a snake handler or someone who drinks poison on purpose, Paul was accidently bit by a snake, it should have killed him being an asp, he just shook it off and went on. They were amazed. He did do it on purpose. If people would believe some of the stories they hear today of tragedies that don't happen because something usual occurred they may see that God still is in the miracle business.

Hi Deborah, I never denied that God does miracles. My contention is that the gifts as given in the NT are no longer active. The gifts may edify the church but I don't believe you'll find Scripture stating that that is the purpose of the gifts. The purpose of the gifts was to be a sign to Israel. The gifts were prophesied as evidence of Messiah's kingdom. The Jews, seeing the signs and wonders should have realized that they were looking at the Messiah. That's why when John the Baptist sent disciples to Jesus and asked if He was the one, Jesus said,

2 Now when John had heard in the prison the works of Christ, he sent two of his disciples,
3 And said unto him, Art thou he that should come, or do we look for another?
4 Jesus answered and said unto them, Go and shew John again those things which ye do hear and see:
5 The blind receive their sight, and the lame walk, the lepers are cleansed, and the deaf hear, the dead are raised up, and the poor have the gospel preached to them.

(Mat 11:2-5 KJV)

John knew form the book of Isaiah that these miracles were prophesied of the Messiah, thus John got his answer.

Even Paul, when speaking of tongues quotes Isaiah and says that tongues is for the unbeliever.

 

[Butch5]

I'm not sure what you're getting at but my point was that no one seems to claim those "two" signs that were bolded.

So what is your conclusion? You've pointed to something but I don't follow you. Can you explain what you mean?

My point is that many Christians claim the gifts but no one claims those two.

 

[Sparkey]

I'm not sure what you're getting at but my point was that no one seems to claim those "two" signs that were bolded.

So what is your conclusion? You've pointed to something but I don't follow you. Can you explain what you mean?

My point is that many Christians claim the gifts but no one claims those two.

So I guess you missed my point that the signs mentioned were about believers. Those who believe. What about that claim?

What about the claim that the Word of God is a two-edged sword?

 

[Deborah13]

Hi Deborah,

The apostle John said to test the spirit to see if there are from God. Do you know anyone who does this?

2 By this you know the Spirit of God: Every spirit that confesses that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is of God,
3 and every spirit that does not confess that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is not of God. And this is the spirit of the Antichrist, which you have heard was coming, and is now already in the world. (1Jo 4:2-3 NKJ)

I have never heard anyone do this.

Hi Butch, thanks for your response.

I only time I would accept a message as being from God is if I knew that person profession of faith, as being that Jesus come in the flesh, and believed that He died on the cross for our sins, and that He was raised from the dead, ascended, and sits at the right hand of the Father. I do not believe prophecies that are given at events or by TV evangelists, etc. I do not deny that they may be correct but I don't receive them as truth.

Hi Deborah,

John said the spirit would confess that Jesus is the Christ and has come in the flesh. We have an example of this. When Jesus appears to John on the island of Patmos He said,

18 I am he that liveth, and was dead; and, behold, I am alive for evermore, Amen; and have the keys of hell and of death. (Rev 1:18 KJV)

Sorry Butch, sometimes I'm a little slow, I don't get your point. Our you suggesting in some way that there is another spirit besides the Holy Spirit using a Christian say I described to heal someone, etc.?
Just how do you suggest that one would test this spirit, this demon, it sounds like you are saying may be present.
That is just what the Pharisees said about Jesus when He cast out demons and what did Jesus say about that?
He said that we should use the gifts as the Spirit gives them and so we should.
Today, I had pains in my stomach and chills. I called my daughter and grandson he's 8, in to pray for me. She started out by thanking the Lord for blessings, etc. Then my grandson took over. Yike, "satan you get away from my grandma you dirty rotten fish! Jesus, thank you for healing Grandma. In Jesus name. Amen" It was immediate relief and within 5 mins it was gone. That was this morning, I still feel great. He has the faith of a child, that has not been corrupted by the world of doubt.

I had to laugh, it was so appropriate, I had felt like I had eaten a dirty rotten fish.

I know you have doubts or maybe you are set and sure. Jesus loves you just as much as anyone who believes in the gifts and you're just as saved. So we can still hopefully agree that we service a wonderful amazing Lord. Praise Him from where all blessing follow.

 

[Butch5]

I'm not sure what you're getting at but my point was that no one seems to claim those "two" signs that were bolded.

So what is your conclusion? You've pointed to something but I don't follow you. Can you explain what you mean?

My point is that many Christians claim the gifts but no one claims those two.

So I guess you missed my point that the signs mentioned were about believers. Those who believe. What about that claim?

What about the claim that the Word of God is a two-edged sword?

I don't believe those signs were for all believers as many Christians do. Jesus was speaking to His apostles and sending them out. If you look at the context Mark said, the Lord went with "THEM" with signs and wonders. He didn't say the Lord would be with everyone who preaches with signs and wonders. I believe what Mark was saying is that those who heard and believed the apostles teaching would have those signs and wonders.

However, many Christians claim the gifts based on this passage, yet it seems they only claim the ones they want.

 

[Butch5]

Hi Deborah,

The apostle John said to test the spirit to see if there are from God. Do you know anyone who does this?

2 By this you know the Spirit of God: Every spirit that confesses that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is of God,
3 and every spirit that does not confess that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is not of God. And this is the spirit of the Antichrist, which you have heard was coming, and is now already in the world. (1Jo 4:2-3 NKJ)

I have never heard anyone do this.

Hi Butch, thanks for your response.

I only time I would accept a message as being from God is if I knew that person profession of faith, as being that Jesus come in the flesh, and believed that He died on the cross for our sins, and that He was raised from the dead, ascended, and sits at the right hand of the Father. I do not believe prophecies that are given at events or by TV evangelists, etc. I do not deny that they may be correct but I don't receive them as truth.

Hi Deborah,

John said the spirit would confess that Jesus is the Christ and has come in the flesh. We have an example of this. When Jesus appears to John on the island of Patmos He said,

18 I am he that liveth, and was dead; and, behold, I am alive for evermore, Amen; and have the keys of hell and of death. (Rev 1:18 KJV)

Sorry Butch, sometimes I'm a little slow, I don't get your point. Our you suggesting in some way that there is another spirit besides the Holy Spirit using a Christian say I described to heal someone, etc.?
Just how do you suggest that one would test this spirit, this demon, it sounds like you are saying may be present.
That is just what the Pharisees said about Jesus when He cast out demons and what did Jesus say about that?
He said that we should use the gifts as the Spirit gives them and so we should.
Today, I had pains in my stomach and chills. I called my daughter and grandson he's 8, in to pray for me. She started out by thanking the Lord for blessings, etc. Then my grandson took over. Yike, "satan you get away from my grandma you dirty rotten fish! Jesus, thank you for healing Grandma. In Jesus name. Amen" It was immediate relief and within 5 mins it was gone. That was this morning, I still feel great. He has the faith of a child, that has not been corrupted by the world of doubt.

I had to laugh, it was so appropriate, I had felt like I had eaten a dirty rotten fish.

I know you have doubts or maybe you are set and sure. Jesus loves you just as much as anyone who believes in the gifts and you're just as saved. So we can still hopefully agree that we service a wonderful amazing Lord. Praise Him from where all blessing follow.

Hi Deborah,

I'm not denying that the Lord does these things, what I am contending is that the gifts as given in the NT are not given today. You had family pray and were healed, I believe the Lord heals. However, in the NT Peter and John could say arise in Jesus name and walk and one would get up and walk. There's a difference in the two. Praying for God to heal and then being healed is God healing, through prayer. However, Peter and John just spoke the words. Paul laid on the boy and he came back to life. These were gifts given to people in the NT times. I don't see people who can do this today. Can someone pray for someone to be healed, yes. God may answer that prayer and heal. However, to walk up to someone who is blind and say see and have them immediately see is the gift of healing as seen in the NT.

 

[Sparkey]

My point is that many Christians claim the gifts but no one claims those two.

So I guess you missed my point that the signs mentioned were about believers. Those who believe. What about that claim?

What about the claim that the Word of God is a two-edged sword?

I don't believe those signs were for all believers as many Christians do. Jesus was speaking to His apostles and sending them out. If you look at the context Mark said, the Lord went with "THEM" with signs and wonders. He didn't say the Lord would be with everyone who preaches with signs and wonders. I believe what Mark was saying is that those who heard and believed the apostles teaching would have those signs and wonders.

However, many Christians claim the gifts based on this passage, yet it seems they only claim the ones they want.

So essentially you are stating your beliefs. I'm okay with that. I thought you were challenging others who believed differently than you about their basis for their belief. Thank you for correcting me.

 

[Deborah13]

Like I said, I've spoken to quite a few people on this subject and none have claimed these two nor know anyone who has.

Well like I said the churches that play with snakes and let them bite them are considered to be extremists. They did used to do this in some of the churches down south I'm surprised you've never heard of it, you must be a lot younger than me. I'm going to see if I can find it there are any still doing it.

 

[Deborah13]

Like I said, I've spoken to quite a few people on this subject and none have claimed these two nor know anyone who has.

Well there are still churches in the states and Canada doing the snake handling, some used to drink poison as well. BUT most states have outlawed it.

 

[Sparkey]

But the title of the thread is Spiritual Gifts, Are They For Today?

Not speaking to the most recent posts, but the signs mentioned specifically mention "Believers" and make no distinction about "Spirit Filled Believers". How does the old practices of snake-handling and drinking poison fit in? Other than it is against the law (thanks for that, Deborah13).

A few posts ago Free said,

They are signs, not gifts, and unless you have spoken to every Christian around the globe, you really don't have a point.

He's got a point about this line of reasoning being pointless.