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Desire to be a vessel of honor unto the Lord Jesus Christ?
Join For His Glory for a discussion on how
https://christianforums.net/threads/a-vessel-of-honor.110278/
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Taking the time to pray? Christ is the answer in times of need
https://christianforums.net/threads/psalm-70-1-save-me-o-god-lord-help-me-now.108509/
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Depending upon the Holy Spirit for all you do?
Read through the following study by Tenchi for more on this topic
https://christianforums.net/threads/without-the-holy-spirit-we-can-do-nothing.109419/
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How are famous preachers sometimes effected by sin?
Join Sola Scriptura for a discussion on the subject
https://christianforums.net/threads/anointed-preaching-teaching.109331/#post-1912042
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St. Mary . . .
- Thread starter JosephT
- Start date
Not_Now.Soon
Member
What does the bible say about Mary? That's where our views of her should come from.
She was chosen by God to have Jesus. She was a virgin when Jesus was born, but Jesus had other brothers so it's not likely she remained a virgin after his birth. Her and Joseph must have celebrated in teachers arms since they were married. Though she wasn't God or anything, Jesus obeyed her when she came to Him for help at a wedding. Turning water into wine might have been Jesus's first miracle or just the first one recorded in the bible. She watched as her son was crucified and she and Jesus's brothers came to talk to Jesus once while He was preaching. Something that Jesus said to the crowd for who are His family are those who do the will of God.
Blessed by God, Chosen by Him. And very much likely to have a special place in both God's heart and in Jesus's heart. Because of that alone, she should be considered a very great lady. A woman that I'm sure is worth meeting if we get the chance in Heaven. Though who knows, being in heaven and near the glory of God, perhaps meeting anyone from Abraham and Moses, to Mary, Ruth, and Esther will be a far less focus then the love and glory of God.
...hopefully not too less of a focus. I'd like to meet her one day. Among probably several others too.
She was chosen by God to have Jesus. She was a virgin when Jesus was born, but Jesus had other brothers so it's not likely she remained a virgin after his birth. Her and Joseph must have celebrated in teachers arms since they were married. Though she wasn't God or anything, Jesus obeyed her when she came to Him for help at a wedding. Turning water into wine might have been Jesus's first miracle or just the first one recorded in the bible. She watched as her son was crucified and she and Jesus's brothers came to talk to Jesus once while He was preaching. Something that Jesus said to the crowd for who are His family are those who do the will of God.
Blessed by God, Chosen by Him. And very much likely to have a special place in both God's heart and in Jesus's heart. Because of that alone, she should be considered a very great lady. A woman that I'm sure is worth meeting if we get the chance in Heaven. Though who knows, being in heaven and near the glory of God, perhaps meeting anyone from Abraham and Moses, to Mary, Ruth, and Esther will be a far less focus then the love and glory of God.
...hopefully not too less of a focus. I'd like to meet her one day. Among probably several others too.
Quite a bit, actually. A lot more than most want to admit. Mary is crucial in our understanding of who Jesus Christ was and His promise for all mankind.
Most, if not all, my views of who St. Mary is and the role she plays in our salvation.
Chosen in what way? There are many 'chosen' in Sacred Scripture. I contend there are no 'blood related' siblings of Christ. If indeed they were and assuming you believe Jesus Christ had two natures, that of God and that of man, then they too would be gods or perhaps demi-gods, would they not?
Is she a great lady or is she the Mother of your Lord, the King? Wouldn't that make her Queen of heaven?
JosephT
I think she comes across as one of the great daughters of Zion not simply a humble woman. You might already know this, cities in antiquity were thought of as young virgin women. Similar to the way we identify ships in terms of feminine pronouns today. Cities are still thought of in terms of feminine pronouns. The city of Jerusalem was called the daughter of Zion. Israel, God’s elected nation, was referred to as the “daughters” of Zion. The following are a few examples:
4 Kings 19:21; Psalms 9:14; Isaias 1:8; 10:32; 16:1; 37:22; 52:2; 62:11 Jer 4:31 Jeremias 6:2; 23; Lamentations 1:6; 2:1; 2:4; 2:8; 2:10; 2:13; 2:18; 4:22; Micheas 1:13; 4:8; 4:10; 4:13 Sophonias 3:14; Zacharias 2:10; 9:9; 8:19; 2:7
Isn’t it rather significant that the metaphor would be used that many times in Scripture, and across so many millennia? Nevertheless, we see the daughter of Zion representing womanhood, as well as the nation of Israel and extending even to the Old Testament ‘Church’.
In King James you’ll read “daughter of Zion” in the DRV you’ll read “daughter of Sion” or “daughter of Jerusalem”. The understanding in antiquity was that cities were personalized with feminine pronouns, young virgin woman. The word “woman” then was used metaphorically or in a spiritual sense to be an entire people, Israel.
We see this stand out most prominently in John’s Gospel in the words “Woman, what is that to me and to thee.” Here we see the “woman” representing Israel or Jerusalem as the daughter of Zion of the Old Testament religion in Judaism. Yet we hear Jesus say that His “hour is not yet come.” The implication being she has no authority to speak in His name just yet, she remains the image of the Old Israel. Further He says that she will speak when His “hour” has come. Which hour do you suppose Christ referred to? And we search through all the ministries of Christ till we find that last where ‘His hour comes’. And from that hour on Mary becomes the image and mother of our Church, “Behold thy mother. And from that hour, the disciple took her to his own." [John 19:27] The New Testament, new dispensation, is handed over to the Church in the person of St. John. Jesus hands over (paradidōmi in Greek) the New Israel the Catholic Church, His soul. [Cf. John 19:30]. The “HOUR” had come for Mary to take on the role as Mother of the Church. John metaphorically tells us that St. Mary represents the Church, more precisely the Mother of the Church.
JosephT
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In antiquity the mother of the king was the queen. Hence, as Jesus Christ is our Lord it stands to reason that Mary is the Queen of Heaven. Does the obvious need to be in the bible, say the effects of gravity to believe that there is a great hurt at the sudden stop if you step off a cliff? Come to think of it, I don't think gravity is in Scripture.
JosephT
Not_Now.Soon
Member
That sounds worth exploring. Any bible verses to start a study?
From your title I assume you have a Catholic background? Calling Mary, St. Mary. I don't have much study about Mary, or any traditions or church doctrine to study from. But a love of God I'm sure we both share. As do most who come here.
I can look up the verse, but I believe there's a verse where Mary is approached by an angel who tells her she is pregnant with Jesus. In that verse I think it says that Mary is blessed more then all women, or that she is greatly chosen by God. I'll see if I can find the verse.
While Jesus was preaching to a crowd, his mother and brothers came to talk to them. Word spread and reached Jesus that they were there, His answer was asking who is my mother, who is my brothers? And His answer is that it is those who obey His father. I don't know what Mary's place in Heaven would be, but right now I also don't think it's for us to know. Our focus should be on God and on Jesus. If knowing about Mary helps that, then that is great. If not, then the speculation might be a distraction. Like the study of angels has grown past studying the bible in many cases and distracts people from looking to God, and looking to Jesus.
I mean no disrespect. Like studying the prophets, the early church fathers, and the history of the church, these things we can study and learn from and be better for it by our relationship with God and our obedience to Him. But I'm sorry, and again mean no disrespect, I worry about a focus that is unhealthy. I hope it's an unwarranted worry. Sorry.
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Not_Now.Soon
Member
Luke 1:28
The angel went to her and said, “Greetings, you who are highly favored! The Lord is with you.”
Jesus had brothers that's all I know. Whether they were blood related or on Joseph's side by a different mother, I see no reason to believe one conclusion over the other, nor do I see a reason to doubt that Mary just had other children and they are Jesus's brothers through Mary as well. Bit there's no reason to think of them as gods or demi-gods. Did Mary show any signs of supernatural ability, or any story of Jesus's brothers have supernatural ability? What matters is that Jesus is the Son of God. I don't think Jesus's relationship with God was given to His brothers, regardless if they were Mary's children or not. At least one brother doubted Jesus, I think.
Mathew 12:46-50
46 While Jesus was still talking to the crowd, his mother and brothers stood outside, wanting to speak to him.47 Someone told him, “Your mother and brothers are standing outside, wanting to speak to you.”
48 He replied to him, “Who is my mother, and who are my brothers?” 49 Pointing to his disciples, he said, “Here are my mother and my brothers. 50 For whoever does the will of my Father in heaven is my brother and sister and mother.”
Christ_empowered
Member
just jumping in here...
I think one's perspective on Mary depends on if one goes thru the sola scriptura lens or the Catholic lens (Anglican, I as well, I think...?). Going solely by Scripture, I don't personally see room for a whole lot, honestly. Special woman, selected by God, painful but godly life, blessed among women. I don't go for the full on equality amongst believers that many Protestants do...I do think Scripture lends support to some people being selected for very special purposes, and therefore...they're closer to God, and I would think (but I don't -know-, clearly) that their relationship with God on Earth (which I believe is probably more about God than the believer) would lead to...
Heavenly rewards and Heavenly stature. So, even if Mary isn't reigning over Heaven (and she may very well be, I just...do not know, obviously), when and if I get to Heaven, she may be so high ranking and such that I might never see her or have a conversation with her in the sense that equals have conversations, in modern society. Heaven sounds very much like a perfect monarchy (yes, I"m lifting this from CS Lewis), so even if Mary and the other canonized saints aren't all the RCC says they are, inequality and stratification are not only recognized in a monarchy, they're...understood...everyone "knows his place," basically. That doesn't work out here in a fallen world (did I Mention I lean socialist?), but in a perfect place with perfected people...sure. Probably the best way to do things, actually.
I missed out on doing Rite of Christian Initiation for Adults (RCIA) classes at the local parish, -but- the organizer has been kind enough to keep me on the email list...
so its odd, in a fun way, that you'd bring this up....because I"m skimming over material related to the Catholicism 101, Mary included.
Thanks, btw.
I think one's perspective on Mary depends on if one goes thru the sola scriptura lens or the Catholic lens (Anglican, I as well, I think...?). Going solely by Scripture, I don't personally see room for a whole lot, honestly. Special woman, selected by God, painful but godly life, blessed among women. I don't go for the full on equality amongst believers that many Protestants do...I do think Scripture lends support to some people being selected for very special purposes, and therefore...they're closer to God, and I would think (but I don't -know-, clearly) that their relationship with God on Earth (which I believe is probably more about God than the believer) would lead to...
Heavenly rewards and Heavenly stature. So, even if Mary isn't reigning over Heaven (and she may very well be, I just...do not know, obviously), when and if I get to Heaven, she may be so high ranking and such that I might never see her or have a conversation with her in the sense that equals have conversations, in modern society. Heaven sounds very much like a perfect monarchy (yes, I"m lifting this from CS Lewis), so even if Mary and the other canonized saints aren't all the RCC says they are, inequality and stratification are not only recognized in a monarchy, they're...understood...everyone "knows his place," basically. That doesn't work out here in a fallen world (did I Mention I lean socialist?), but in a perfect place with perfected people...sure. Probably the best way to do things, actually.
I missed out on doing Rite of Christian Initiation for Adults (RCIA) classes at the local parish, -but- the organizer has been kind enough to keep me on the email list...
so its odd, in a fun way, that you'd bring this up....because I"m skimming over material related to the Catholicism 101, Mary included.
Thanks, btw.
Not_Now.Soon
Member
There's a lot of contention that I've had in one of my first topics here tgat was around whether or not the Trinity is real or not. It caused a heated debate between several members here. Not wanting to repeat that divide, I would say that there are a few issues here that mirror the rational that God and Jesus while both united are different people. Things like Jesus saying only the Father knows those dates not even the Don knows when the end will come.
If Mary holds the title of Mother of Jesus, Queen of Heaven, so be it. But I would be ok without a definitive answer on that. There's enough to focus on without knowing our titles in Heaven or anyone else's title.
A simular point of interest is on who the "Bride of Christ is." Is it a person, the church body or a special portion of the church, or is it the new Jerulesum? Several theories I've heard are on that as well, but it in the end I don't see the difference. Only God knows, and it shouldn't be a focus to distract us from being true Christians, seeking God, and aobeying Him.
billybalke
Member
Where in scripture does it teach Mary is the mother of heaven? Neither is it "obvious" that she is. "The wish is the father of the "obvious".
KevinK
Member
I don't know how much creedence y'all give to modern testimony, but I spend a good deal of time studying dreams, visions, NDE accounts, etc. One theme that comes up with regularity is Mary's place in the big scheme of things. It is made quite clear that Mary, as the Mother of God, is only a human being that was given a special task. She is not a deity of any kind certainly, nor God's wife, nor the Queen of Heaven. She is not to be worshipped or idolized in any way.
Start with Luke chapters 1 and 2. John chapters 2 and 19 Matthew chapter 2 Read deep. Notice in Luke's first chapter that St. Luke is 'reporting' "eyewitness" reports just like "Eyewitness News" today. There are those who believe that the "eyewitness" included Mary. We can see this in the intimate details such as St. John's jump in the womb at Mary's presence. How would anybody know a thing like that unless they talked to someone very close to Mary or Mary herself.
I am Catholic, background and foreground and all - both by birth and by choice.
You are recalling these verses:
"And the angel being come in, said unto her: Hail, full of grace, the Lord is with thee: blessed art thou among women. Who having heard, was troubled at his saying, and thought with herself what manner of salutation this should be. And the angel said to her: Fear not, Mary, for thou hast found grace with God. Behold thou shalt conceive in thy womb, and shalt bring forth a son; and thou shalt call his name Jesus. He shall be great, and shall be called the Son of the most High; and the Lord God shall give unto him the throne of David his father; and he shall reign in the house of Jacob for ever. And of his kingdom there shall be no end." [Luke 1:28-33]
"Hail, full of grace" is an important phase used by an emissary of God. As it has been explained to me the humanist scholar Erasmus translated kecharitomene as “most favored or highly favored” from the traditional translation of “full of grace“ or in Latin “gratia plena”. Unto the praise of the glory of his grace, in which he hath graced us in his beloved son. [Ephesians 1:6]. Here we see echarítosen is used, an ‘aorist’ voice. Here it is expressed in English, “he has graced”, to our benefit today.
The phrase “pleres charitos” describes St. Stephen martyrdom in Acts 6:8 and also used to describe the word made flesh, “plenum gratiae et veritatis”. But, none of these fit the tenses, voices, and senses found in kecharitomene. Most highly favored falls short and in some ways so does “full of grace.” Kecharitomene is a verb describing something that happened to a noun, in the past tense (past perfect participle of charitoo). The 'perfect' action of the participle is considered to have been completed before the time of the speaker and having an effect today. Hence when we could translate the phrase “Hail, Mary full of grace” to Hail, Mary was full of grace in the past and is highly favored in the present. The Salvific grace was given in the past, and its radiance remains with us today.
But, let’s add one more thing, the use of “Hail” as an address was the type of formal language used in the courts of kings and queens. The address to Mary was formal by all accounts; the angle was honoring Mary in his speech. Now, you must ask, why an angle would honor a woman, when women are not honored among men in this time; women were viewed a little more than servants and due no honor.
Consequently to say that the root word exists in both cases does not convey the same meaning. It remains that “Hail, Mary full of Grace”, while not perfect, still best describes in English the words spoken by the archangel.
What follows is equally important, the Child's name was to be Jesus, roughly meaning savior, and that He would be given an eternal Kingdom. Mary knew that her womb was filled with God.
No disrespect was taken, many make the mistake of believing these verses as a detriment to St. Mary, when in fact they are used by Christ to exalt St. Mary, His Mother. But, in doing so you make an excellent case against private interpretation of scripture.
Let me say first that "brothers" are not blood related siblings, rather His spiritual brother. Yes I can prove it, but I won't make the case here, if you want I'll do so later. To the point, the verses you are discussing are as follows:
"As he was yet speaking to the multitudes, behold his mother and his brethren stood without, seeking to speak to him. And one said unto him: Behold thy mother and thy brethren stand without, seeking thee. But he answering him that told him, said: Who is my mother, and who are my brethren? And stretching forth his hand towards his disciples, he said: Behold my mother and my brethren. For whosoever shall do the will of my Father, that is in heaven, he is my brother, and sister, and mother. " [Matthew 12:46-50]
He is not denying His mother, refusing to speak to her, or in any way moving away as with a disaffected child from his parent. Instead, he was lifting the crowd up to the status that He held in His heart for His mother and His spiritual brothers and sisters. Otherwise, to the crowd the comment would have been meaningless or worse an insult. Consider this, if Christ were demeaning His Mother, as it were bringing her down, then His comment for those to believe in Him would also 'bring them down'. Something like this; 'my mother is a pig, if you follow me I'll make you like my mother, a pig.' Now, how would that go over with you!
Logically then, in these verses we see Christ holding His Mother and His spiritual brothers as a model or standard they should achieve in there faith in Him. She is for us the Mother of the Church.
JosephT
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Not_Now.Soon
Member
Perhaps. But if we also count modern testomy then it should also be worth counting testomy after the bible was written, even if it wasn't modern. Though I don't know much about CatholismI know one thing that is testified about is visions of Mary. Posibly even miracles with an association to her.
Like you KevinK, I've had a deep fascination with near death experiences and that sort of thing. However, I also have enough doubt in me to be cautious. there are many who say they know the truth but are in error. Sometimes without even knowing it.
All testomies are worth considering. Some though need to be rejected, or at least the conclusion they hold be rejected. the only examples of this are the need to reject the many predictions of when Jesus returns. Those come and go, and there's no reason to believe them even if they say it like it was a vision or a testimony.
18 In that day the deaf shall hear
the words of a book,
and out of their gloom and darkness
the eyes of the blind shall see. Isa. 29:18
This is so that anyone who can read can know the truth, and can know what is true and what is false. And the truth is Mary was just a woman, nothing supernatural about her. God made her for his purpose so that she should be the mother of our Lord Jesus.
God has not left us in darkness at the mercy of false teachers.
When Jesus made this statement He included Mary. This statement indicates that any woman that "does the will of the Father" is a mother of Jesus and therefore by your definition, JosephT, there could be multiple queens.
Walpole
Member
I have been absent for a few day and sadly it looks like one of the threads I was participating in was closed. However, I am glad to see a thread started on the Mother of God and her role in salvation history, especially as we approach the celebration of Christ's nativity.
Mary is the both the mother of Eternal Life and the Mother of God by virtue of who she bore.
I agree, the very first Christian ever was St. Mary who was indeed is a creature. However, in denying the Ever Virgin Mary's role in the birth of Christ we deny Jesus Christ is God/man (One Person having two natures) - specifically we deny his humanity. Such is the theology of the "sects of perdition, and deny the Lord who bought them: bringing upon themselves swift destruction." [2 Peter 2:1]
JosephT
stovebolts
Member
Hi Joseph,
While I respect your view that St. Mary was ever virgin, I think you will find most Protestants may disagree with you. For those that do, I would ask that you respect their views as well.
I am reading your reply to MarkT and I must have missed something. You spoke about denying St. Mary's role in the birth of our Savior. I didn't catch that in anyone's reply. Can you help me see what you see?
Thanks.