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T.U.L.I.P. - Perseverance of the Saints

Yeah, the Catholic Church didn't accept all of his ideas. I agree with you that the doctrine of "Original Sin" isn't Biblical. It's stated plainly in the Scriptures that the son shall not die for the sins of the father. That pretty much ends that doctrine right there.

Regarding predestination I believe he was way off base. Predestination in the Bible is not about being saved. It's about God's choosing of Israel. I find it sad when I see Christians debating this subject because both sides are wrong. The Arminian says that God knows who will believe and saves them. The Calvinist says that God chose before creation. Both sides are wrong. It's not about God choosing who will be saved. It's about God choosing Israel.
P.S. Right. It's because of Augustine's doctrine (teaching) that after him, babies were absolutely required to be baptized. I would like you to know that the CC does not believe that baptism saves the person....but that they must come to believe as an adult and then the Holy Spirit, that they received at baptism is "awakened" and the person becomes saved --- from faith, just like Protestants.

I just want to say that God DID foreknow who would be saved.
Do you not believe this?
Romans 8:27-29
 
Hi PeterJens,

The doctrine of OSAS comes out of a Gnostic doctrine called Fatalism or Determinism. Fatalism holds that all things are determined by fate and that nothing man can do can change this. Augustine who brought the idea of Perseverance of the Saints to the church was a Manichean before becoming a Christian. He held this doctrine of Fatalism. In his writings on Perseverance of the Saints he basically just exchanged fate with God. All things would be determined by God rather than fate. Augustine's doctrine was rejected by the Catholic Church. Later at the Reformation Calvin and Luther who studied Augustine both espoused this doctrine. That essentially how we have it today.
I agree with the summary.
I do also understand how traumatised people look for security.
A fellowship like Bethel and HillSong pose quite a problem. They use language in a way that I understand in terms of feeling of praise and being lost in the gift Christ gives us.
The problem is the emotional feeling "Spirit break out" becomes "God" rather than life reality. So when you listen to their teaching on repentance and resolution, there is very little ever shared or even biblical exposition, because if they did, it would create a difference between peoples experiences and their expectations of promise.

Equally if you follow that reality in Christ is a perfect spirit in an evil dying flesh, you end up with a different faith. An example of this was Benny Hinn suggesting each part of the God head had a body, soul and spirit. Rather than realising he demonstrated the conclusions of following his heresy, he believed what he was saying was the truth.

When Paul said we are a new creation, he meant us as a whole being. The fruit of this change is our walk in love and the Holy Spirit. But he warned simply we can destroy this new creation by sowing to sin and flesh, but if we sow to the Spirit we gain eternal life. Part of Pauls emphasis was we are secure in Christ, yet also, we put at risk our walk if we walk away.

The truth is we want a solution, a simple definitive place. And God does deliver the conviction in Him we have this, if we stay in Him. Revival after revival is people find this reality, but believe rather than confirming truth, it is only true as long as they feel elated and close. Once the elation goes, they walk away, like it is a fade.

But those whose hearts are changed, literally become the fulfilment of the promise continue in their walk.

I think from a distance we see the image or shadow of who Christ is, and until we get closer to the light, we do not really see how this works out in our hearts.

We are fickle. Get married, have kids, see another attractive person, dump the love and commitment, go running after the next emotional high. We lose all that life is and what life made us in our own family and in the family we bring about with our partner. But this emotional fix, can become the drug, just as much in religion and faith as in marriage. God calls us to maturity, to seeing the value of sacrifice, pain, standing strong despite it all.
 
Those who hold the immortal soul doctrine don't believe people die. They believe only the body dies. Since they believe this they already have eternal life. Why would God need to give eternal life to someone who is immortal? Those who don't hold it understand that man dies. If he dies he obviously doesn't have eternal life. So, for him to have eternal life it would have to come after he died.
Interesting. Never thought of this.
I believe, as you know, that when we die the soul and spirit remain intact. So, yes, the soul would never die.
 
But he warned simply we can destroy this new creation by sowing to sin and flesh, but if we sow to the Spirit we gain eternal life. Part of Pauls emphasis was we are secure in Christ, yet also, we put at risk our walk if we walk away.

Amen.

The security is in doing things God’s way; hearing with the intent of following His way of life.


Those who hear with the intent of following, are those who in fact follow His way of life; Love, Righteousness, Holiness and Peace.



JLB
 
P.S. Right. It's because of Augustine's doctrine (teaching) that after him, babies were absolutely required to be baptized. I would like you to know that the CC does not believe that baptism saves the person....but that they must come to believe as an adult and then the Holy Spirit, that they received at baptism is "awakened" and the person becomes saved --- from faith, just like Protestants.

I just want to say that God DID foreknow who would be saved.
Do you not believe this?
Romans 8:27-29
I don't know if He knew. But, that's not what that passage is talking. Its about Israel.
 
I agree with the summary.
I do also understand how traumatised people look for security.
A fellowship like Bethel and HillSong pose quite a problem. They use language in a way that I understand in terms of feeling of praise and being lost in the gift Christ gives us.
The problem is the emotional feeling "Spirit break out" becomes "God" rather than life reality. So when you listen to their teaching on repentance and resolution, there is very little ever shared or even biblical exposition, because if they did, it would create a difference between peoples experiences and their expectations of promise.

Equally if you follow that reality in Christ is a perfect spirit in an evil dying flesh, you end up with a different faith. An example of this was Benny Hinn suggesting each part of the God head had a body, soul and spirit. Rather than realising he demonstrated the conclusions of following his heresy, he believed what he was saying was the truth.

When Paul said we are a new creation, he meant us as a whole being. The fruit of this change is our walk in love and the Holy Spirit. But he warned simply we can destroy this new creation by sowing to sin and flesh, but if we sow to the Spirit we gain eternal life. Part of Pauls emphasis was we are secure in Christ, yet also, we put at risk our walk if we walk away.

The truth is we want a solution, a simple definitive place. And God does deliver the conviction in Him we have this, if we stay in Him. Revival after revival is people find this reality, but believe rather than confirming truth, it is only true as long as they feel elated and close. Once the elation goes, they walk away, like it is a fade.

But those whose hearts are changed, literally become the fulfilment of the promise continue in their walk.

I think from a distance we see the image or shadow of who Christ is, and until we get closer to the light, we do not really see how this works out in our hearts.

We are fickle. Get married, have kids, see another attractive person, dump the love and commitment, go running after the next emotional high. We lose all that life is and what life made us in our own family and in the family we bring about with our partner. But this emotional fix, can become the drug, just as much in religion and faith as in marriage. God calls us to maturity, to seeing the value of sacrifice, pain, standing strong despite it all.
Well said!
 
This is very interesting because Calvinists keep telling me I'm an Arminian and I don't even know what he taught.

So there you go....I'm NOT an Arminian because I don't believe in eternal security...but only on conditional eternal security. The condition being that we believe in Christ and are a disciple.

wondering,

Do you believe Christians are:
  1. Conditionally elected to salvation by God and they can resist this drawing power/election?
  2. Those who believe Jesus die for the sins of the whole world?
  3. Those who teach that all people have a fallen, sinful nature derived from the concept of original sin, as a consequence of the Fall of Adam?
  4. Those who believe all human beings have the free will to resist God's prevenient grace, made available to all. It is God's divine grace preceding a human decision.
  5. Perseverance of the saints may be conditional on the believer remaining in Christ? Are you fully persuaded in their mind that the Scriptures teach that a true believer is capable of falling away from faith and perishing eternally as an unbeliever?
Oz
 
I don't know if He knew. But, that's not what that passage is talking. Its about Israel.
Israel, and corporate salvation, and the choosing of the Hebrew/Jewish nation for God's revelation to manking....comes just after those verses and begins wholeheartedly in chapter 9.

Chapters 9, 10 and 11 are about corporate salvation and the Jewish nation. Correct.

There are a few verses that could be used also for individual salvation....but basically it's about what you've stated.
 
Why would such a person need eternal life
Well, we have to die physically.
So we're not eternal...
eternal means we never have to die in any way...
same for immortal.

I believe, as you know, that the soul lives on because our soul is what makes ME be ME.

Our spirit lives on because it goes to God and spirit never dies.

Could we say the soul is immortal?
What say you?
 
wondering,

Do you believe Christians are:
  1. Conditionally elected to salvation by God and they can resist this drawing power/election?
  2. Those who believe Jesus die for the sins of the whole world?
  3. Those who teach that all people have a fallen, sinful nature derived from the concept of original sin, as a consequence of the Fall of Adam?
  4. Those who believe all human beings have the free will to resist God's prevenient grace, made available to all. It is God's divine grace preceding a human decision.
  5. Perseverance of the saints may be conditional on the believer remaining in Christ? Are you fully persuaded in their mind that the Scriptures teach that a true believer is capable of falling away from faith and perishing eternally as an unbeliever?
Oz
Hi Oz,,,I'm half asleep...but I'll try !
BTW,,,is it summer there? It is in Perth.

1. Yes. We can resist God.

2. Yes. Jesus died for the sins of the whole world.

3. Yes. We are born with a sin nature as an EFFECT of Adam's sin.

4. Oh boy. I think yes,,, God's prevenient grace....I hesitate because God's grace falls on all. I'd have to think this over better.

5. Yes. I've seen this. The N.T. teaches that there are conditions to remaining saved. I firmly believe this.

Score?
Am I an arminian?
I still don't really know all that he taught.
Read your article a couple of times (not right now).
It seems like I agree with some things, but not others.
 
Israel, and corporate salvation, and the choosing of the Hebrew/Jewish nation for God's revelation to manking....comes just after those verses and begins wholeheartedly in chapter 9.

Chapters 9, 10 and 11 are about corporate salvation and the Jewish nation. Correct.

There are a few verses that could be used also for individual salvation....but basically it's about what you've stated.
Actually, Paul begins his address to the Jewish believers at Rome at 2:17. He carries it through to 11:13
 
Actually, Paul begins his address to the Jewish believers at Rome at 2:17. He carries it through to 11:13
Don't you feel chapters 9 to 11 are different?
It starts out by his declaration of grief for his brethren and says to them belongs the adoption as sons.

He IS addressing the Jews throughout,,,trying to make them understand the connection between the O.T. and Jesus and the N.T.
I'll have to read your article -- but tomorrow morning.
 
I agree with the summary.
I do also understand how traumatised people look for security.
A fellowship like Bethel and HillSong pose quite a problem. They use language in a way that I understand in terms of feeling of praise and being lost in the gift Christ gives us.
The problem is the emotional feeling "Spirit break out" becomes "God" rather than life reality. So when you listen to their teaching on repentance and resolution, there is very little ever shared or even biblical exposition, because if they did, it would create a difference between peoples experiences and their expectations of promise.

Equally if you follow that reality in Christ is a perfect spirit in an evil dying flesh, you end up with a different faith. An example of this was Benny Hinn suggesting each part of the God head had a body, soul and spirit. Rather than realising he demonstrated the conclusions of following his heresy, he believed what he was saying was the truth.

When Paul said we are a new creation, he meant us as a whole being. The fruit of this change is our walk in love and the Holy Spirit. But he warned simply we can destroy this new creation by sowing to sin and flesh, but if we sow to the Spirit we gain eternal life. Part of Pauls emphasis was we are secure in Christ, yet also, we put at risk our walk if we walk away.

The truth is we want a solution, a simple definitive place. And God does deliver the conviction in Him we have this, if we stay in Him. Revival after revival is people find this reality, but believe rather than confirming truth, it is only true as long as they feel elated and close. Once the elation goes, they walk away, like it is a fade.

But those whose hearts are changed, literally become the fulfilment of the promise continue in their walk.

I think from a distance we see the image or shadow of who Christ is, and until we get closer to the light, we do not really see how this works out in our hearts.

We are fickle. Get married, have kids, see another attractive person, dump the love and commitment, go running after the next emotional high. We lose all that life is and what life made us in our own family and in the family we bring about with our partner. But this emotional fix, can become the drug, just as much in religion and faith as in marriage. God calls us to maturity, to seeing the value of sacrifice, pain, standing strong despite it all.
:clap:clap:clap
 
Well, we have to die physically.
So we're not eternal...
eternal means we never have to die in any way...
same for immortal.

I believe, as you know, that the soul lives on because our soul is what makes ME be ME.

Our spirit lives on because it goes to God and spirit never dies.

Could we say the soul is immortal?
What say you?

This may require another thread. I get my understanding of what a person is from Genesis 2:7

7 And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.1 (Gen. 2:7 KJV)

I understand that man consists of the elements of the earth. That he is infused with God's breath or spirit, same word. I believe that this combination of the man and the breath of God became a living soul. So, a soul is the whole person, body and breath of God. The spirit or breath in man is not man but God's. And man is simply a flesh being. So, I don't believe that man is immortal. I believe that when a man dies, the breath or spirit that God put in the man returns to God because it is something of God. When the breath leaves the soul the soul ceases to exist as it consists of two things the breath of God and the body. When one part is gone the soul ceases. I believe the body returns to the dust. So, that means when a man is dead, he is dead. He's not in Heaven or being tormented somewhere. He's not in a state of limbo. He's dead.
 
Don't you feel chapters 9 to 11 are different?
It starts out by his declaration of grief for his brethren and says to them belongs the adoption as sons.

He IS addressing the Jews throughout,,,trying to make them understand the connection between the O.T. and Jesus and the N.T.
I'll have to read your article -- but tomorrow morning.

I don't think they're different in content. I think chapters 9-11 explain his statement in 8:28-30

28 And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose.
29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.
30 Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified. (Rom. 8:28-30 KJV)
 
Hi Oz,,,I'm half asleep...but I'll try !
BTW,,,is it summer there? It is in Perth.

1. Yes. We can resist God.

2. Yes. Jesus died for the sins of the whole world.

3. Yes. We are born with a sin nature as an EFFECT of Adam's sin.

4. Oh boy. I think yes,,, God's prevenient grace....I hesitate because God's grace falls on all. I'd have to think this over better.

5. Yes. I've seen this. The N.T. teaches that there are conditions to remaining saved. I firmly believe this.

Score?
Am I an arminian?
I still don't really know all that he taught.
Read your article a couple of times (not right now).
It seems like I agree with some things, but not others.

wondering,

Let's check you out to see whether you are an Arminian:

The major beliefs of Classical/Reformed Arminianism are summed up in The Articles of the Remonstrance that were challenged at the kangaroo court of the Council of Dordt.

The Five Articles of Remonstrance (A W Harrison translation) dealt with:

clip_image004 Conditional election

clip_image006 Unlimited atonement

clip_image008 Total depravity

clip_image010 Prevenient grace [resistible grace]

clip_image012 Conditional preservation

Arminius said: It is possible for me to err, but I am not willing to be a heretic’ (Arminius 1977b:475).

I am a 'leaky' Reformed/Classical Arminian because I support believers' baptism and not infant baptism. See the article, 'Meet a Reformed Arminian'. Historically, Jacobus Arminius was a Dutch Reformed Minister to his dying day (at age 49). He taught at the Dutch University of Leiden. Therefore, he was a Christian minister promoting the Reformation.

I recommend the article by Roger Olson, 'What's wrong with Calvinism?' (Society of Evangelical Arminians).

Oz
 
Do you know the Arminian belief?
Could you explain it please....
I get accused of being an Arminian all the time.
OzSpen wrote an article about it on his site.
I've not really studied too much what Arminius believed. I know there were some things that he and Calvin weren't that far apart on.
 
This may require another thread. I get my understanding of what a person is from Genesis 2:7

7 And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.1 (Gen. 2:7 KJV)

I understand that man consists of the elements of the earth. That he is infused with God's breath or spirit, same word. I believe that this combination of the man and the breath of God became a living soul. So, a soul is the whole person, body and breath of God. The spirit or breath in man is not man but God's. And man is simply a flesh being. So, I don't believe that man is immortal. I believe that when a man dies, the breath or spirit that God put in the man returns to God because it is something of God. When the breath leaves the soul the soul ceases to exist as it consists of two things the breath of God and the body. When one part is gone the soul ceases. I believe the body returns to the dust. So, that means when a man is dead, he is dead. He's not in Heaven or being tormented somewhere. He's not in a state of limbo. He's dead.
??
Yes. Maybe we could have a different thread and discuss this a bit. I've never heard this. Do you have a link to your site?
 
wondering,

Let's check you out to see whether you are an Arminian:

The major beliefs of Classical/Reformed Arminianism are summed up in The Articles of the Remonstrance that were challenged at the kangaroo court of the Council of Dordt.

The Five Articles of Remonstrance (A W Harrison translation) dealt with:

clip_image004 Conditional election

clip_image006 Unlimited atonement

clip_image008 Total depravity

clip_image010 Prevenient grace [resistible grace]

clip_image012 Conditional preservation

Arminius said: It is possible for me to err, but I am not willing to be a heretic’ (Arminius 1977b:475).

I am a 'leaky' Reformed/Classical Arminian because I support believers' baptism and not infant baptism. See the article, 'Meet a Reformed Arminian'. Historically, Jacobus Arminius was a Dutch Reformed Minister to his dying day (at age 49). He taught at the Dutch University of Leiden. Therefore, he was a Christian minister promoting the Reformation.

I recommend the article by Roger Olson, 'What's wrong with Calvinism?' (Society of Evangelical Arminians).

Oz
You didn't tell me whether or not I'm an Arminian !!
I don't believe in TOTAL depravity.

Awaiting my score.
:helmet
 
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