T.U.L.I.P. - Perseverance of the Saints

[JLB]

I'll post a new thread on it in the open forum

Awesome.


I will look for it.

 

[JLB]

I am of the firm belief that we can fall from grace if we don't follow God's will.
Same as you. (i think im right about u this time)

Thank goodness, He is for me, and doesn’t give up on me, or I would still be lost.




JLB

 

[JLB]

I don't think salvation is a one time event that happens in our life on earth, but an ongoing process. I could be wrong but that's what I think atm. It's a mix of RCC teachings, other teachings and my own thoughts like defining salvation and God's grace as two different things. I think the description of being born again is receiving God's grace, not an assurance of salvation.

I believe we are saved “by faith”, when we believe.

However, believe in the original carries a different meaning than what people may think.


I believe we will receive the salvation of our soul, at the end of our faith; as an end result of our faith.


In this you greatly rejoice, though now for a little while, if need be, you have been grieved by various trials, that the genuineness of your faith, being much more precious than gold that perishes, though it is tested by fire, may be found to praise, honor, and glory at the revelation of Jesus Christ, whom having not seen you love. Though now you do not see Him, yet believing, you rejoice with joy inexpressible and full of glory, receiving the end of your faith—the salvation of your souls. 1 Peter 1:6-9

• receiving the end of your faith—the salvation of your souls.

JLB

 

[JLB]

Tell me what you think about that? I don't think any of it contradicts scripture, does it?

I think you are in a good place, and have a good head on your shoulders.


You have a good grasp on the scriptures and what they teach.

The more you are involved in these discussions, the more you will want to dig in, and see what the word says about these things.


Stick around, the Lord is doing great things in you, my friend.



JLB

 

[Christ the King]

I think you are in a good place, and have a good head on your shoulders.

You have a good grasp on the scriptures and what they teach.

The more you are involved in these discussions, the more you will want to dig in, and see what the word says about these things.

Stick around, the Lord is doing great things in you, my friend.

JLB

Thanks. A year ago i knew only the basic teachings of Christianity and had a naive perception of it which was false.

Learning about God has been so great i cannot even describe it.
But learning about religion and all the division has been painfully disheartening.
That's why Im hesitant to get too involved, i don't want to contribute to the division of Christians.

Part of me wants to gain a deeper understanding of the Word but the other part would love to approach Christ like a child as he says. Having only basic knowledge but immense faith

God Bless

 

[GodsGrace]

JLB

I don't really know their case well enough to be able to give a decent argument.

I am of the firm belief that we can fall from grace if we don't follow God's will.
Same as you. (i think im right about u this time)

Hi CtK,,,
This time you're right about JLB!
I'm having a good time following your conversation.
It seems like he knows everything about everything.
You seem like a good level-headed Christian.
So nice to meet up with them.

James' faith and deeds, the parable of the sheep and the goats, the parable of the god and bad fish in the net and the judgment in revelation 20 are some of the best passages to confirm it I think

I agree. What in Revelation 20? I'm not very familiar with that book....except for a few passages that are actually literal. Do you mean about clean things not getting into heaven?

Oh. A verse I like regarding the ones you've quoted above is John 5:28-29....Jesus Himself states that we will be judged according to the deeds we have done....the good and the evil.
28“Do not marvel at this; for an hour is coming, in which all who are in the tombs will hear His voice,
29and will come forth; those who did the good deeds to a resurrection of life, those who committed the evil deeds to a resurrection of judgment.

I believe that through baptism we receive the Holy Spirit
Through faith (which includes repenting) we receive God's grace (not salvation yet)

If you've already answered this, please refer me to the post number.

Two questions:

1. Does every Catholic have the Holy Spirit indwelling since they are baptized as infants?
2. Do only Christians receive grace or does God's grace fall on everyone?
3. What does repent mean...and why do you believe we're not saved at this point?

The N. T. teaches that if we believe (with heart and soul) in Christ
and believe that God raised Him from the dead...we are saved.
Romans 10:9-10
9that if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved;
10for with the heart a person believes, resulting in righteousness, and with the mouth he confesses, resulting in salvation.

We only need to repent one time and then be faithful to God's word and be good disciples of His. In Catholic teaching, one would need to repent again after a serious mortal sin (the word serious is superfluous of course), which doesn't happen very often...at other times one is contrite for his sin and simply asks forgiveness.

Protestants ask forgiveness to God only and for all sin, of course.

We must continue in God's will and reject Satan's temptations to produce good deeds. Being in communion with Christ is a huge help (maybe even necessary)
We will still sin and need to repent periodically to renew/strengthen God's grace

Yes, I'd say that being in communion with Christ is absolutely necessary. First because He atones for our sins and is the mediator of the New Covenant. So if we want to be a part of the New Covenant we must be in Communion with Christ.
Jesus said this clearly in
John 15:5
5“I am the vine, you are the branches; he who abides in Me and I in him, he bears much fruit, for apart from Me you can do nothing.


The Holy Spirit renews our strength...it took me years to understand about the Holy Spirit. Of course, He is God too, but each person of the Trinity has their own work description (nice?) and this would be one for the Holy Spirit.

Then after we die we will approach the white throne where "The dead were judged according to what they had done as recorded in the books" Revelation 20: 12
Hopefully I will have the best defense barrister in the universe, Jesus Christ.

I see that Protestants also believe that Christ will be our advocate on the day of judgement. Doesn't that contradict their belief that they are saved already?

Even according to Catholic teaching,,,we could know that we are saved at any moment,,,at the feet of Christ (is how a Monk I study with explained it) or as any priest would say: if we are in the grace of God (absent of mortal sin).

However, we cannot be sure of our salvation until the end of our life since this faith must continue.
Colossians 1:23
23if indeed you continue in the faith firmly established and steadfast, and not moved away from the hope of the gospel that you have heard, , ,

At the end of our life, we will receive our salvation:
Philippians 3:23
12Not that I have already obtained it or have already become perfect, but I press on so that I may lay hold of that for which also I was laid hold of by Christ Jesus.

I don't think salvation is a one time event that happens in our life on earth, but an ongoing process. I could be wrong but that's what I think atm. It's a mix of RCC teachings, other teachings and my own thoughts like defining salvation and God's grace as two different things. I think the description of being born again is receiving God's grace, not an assurance of salvation.

The on-going process you speak about above is called progressive justification in the CC and sanctification in the PC.

Salvation is different from Grace.

Salvation happens when a person become reborn, as Jesus stated in John 3:3,5..this person accepts God's existence and his need for God in his life. He turns over his life to God and becomes a servant of God instead of a servant of the evil one.

Grace is simply God's love for manking and what He does because of that love. Some say it's unmerited love...which, of course, it is. We are in constant need of God's grace.

Tell me what you think about that? I don't think any of it contradicts scripture, does it?

Thinking about this leads me to a famous old topic that I have never understood.
Theologians have grappled with it since the beginning of Christianity.

I'll post a new thread on it in the open forum

Did you open the new thread?

Scripture doesn't really teach that infants should be baptized, although the early church did baptize them but for nice, Christianly reasons. Then Augustine came along and decided that we are all imputed with the sin of Adam and thus it became necessary to baptize a baby ASAP after birth or he'd go to hell because of this new understanding of original sin. This happened in about 400 AD....well after the age of the early church.

 

[GodsGrace]

Thanks. A year ago i knew only the basic teachings of Christianity and had a naive perception of it which was false.

Learning about God has been so great i cannot even describe it.
But learning about religion and all the division has been painfully disheartening.
That's why Im hesitant to get too involved, i don't want to contribute to the division of Christians.

Part of me wants to gain a deeper understanding of the Word but the other part would love to approach Christ like a child as he says. Having only basic knowledge but immense faith

God Bless

You don't need to choose between faith or immense knowledge.

You will not lose your faith -- the more I learned the more I could accept Christianity on a faith level and a logical reasoning level.
It helps to ground you in your faith.

Jesus said we must be like children...think about what that means.
How are children?
But do they need to stop going to school and learning?
We could be like children and trust God and still now many things about Him.

I believe the O.T. and the N.T. are here because God wants to reveal Himself to each one of us...I think it's good to know what's written there.

 

[GodsGrace]

Remember that isn't my view im just trying to predict what an OSAS person might say.

To your question perhaps an OSAS person would reply as such;
We are saved by faith. Maybe the disciples didn't have the total faith required (Thomas certainly didn't) until they saw the resurrection of Christ. Only then could they receive salvation through the Holy Spirit

You bring up an interesting point.

Did any of them h ave the total faith required?
Did they really believe Jesus would come back from death?

Perhaps all of them were in the same boat Thomas was in....but Thomas didn't even believe his fellow Apostles when they stated to him that they saw Jesus alive.

Do WE believe the Apostles when they write that they saw Jesus alive?

Thomas believe when he saw...
we must believe even if we do not see,
based on the words of the Apostles.
John 20:24-29
24But Thomas, one of the twelve, called Didymus, was not with them when Jesus came.
25So the other disciples were saying to him, “We have seen the Lord!” But he said to them, “Unless I see in His hands the imprint of the nails, and put my finger into the place of the nails, and put my hand into His side, I will not believe.”

26After eight days His disciples were again inside, and Thomas with them. Jesus came, the doors having been shut, and stood in their midst and said, “Peace be with you.” 27Then He said to Thomas, “Reach here with your finger, and see My hands; and reach here your hand and put it into My side; and do not be unbelieving, but believing.”
28Thomas answered and said to Him, “My Lord and my God!”
29Jesus said to him, “Because you have seen Me, have you believed? Blessed are they who did not see, and yet believed.”

 

[GodsGrace]

Sorry I wasn't the advocate for the RCC that u had hoped.

LOL
I don't think we have any advocates on this forum....
Just ONE!

(we don't need anymore).

I hadn't hoped this C...I could stick up for the CC if I have to.
It's just interesting to talk.
:yes

 

[GodsGrace]

Let’s test that hypothesis.
First assumption is that one is a saint (Perseverance of the Saints does not apply to non-saints).
Second assumption is that a saint (one who is saved) will remain saved until the end (glorification).

A,
There are verses that clearly state that saints do not necessarily have to persevere till the end...Jesus said that ONLY those that persevere and/or endure to the end will be saved. He said:
Matthew 24:10-13
10“At that time many will fall away and will betray one another and hate one another.
11“Many false prophets will arise and will mislead many. 12“Because lawlessness is increased, most people’s love will grow cold.
13“But the one who endures to the end, he will be saved.

If Jesus says something plainly...this should be the accepted norm...
man-made teachings should not change the teachings of Jesus.
I say man-made teachings because they simply did not exist until the reformation. No where in scripture does it state that faith, once received, can never be abandoned by us...the N.T. does teach that we are required to HOLD ON to our faith.
In 2 timothy 4:7 Paul says he has kept the faith.
In 1 Timothy 1:19 Paul tells Timothy to keep the faith... because those that did not suffered shipwreck.
19keeping faith and a good conscience, which some have rejected and suffered shipwreck in regard to their faith.



To your post above:
1. Only saints are saved.
For sure.
A saint is a holy person. A holy person is set aside for service to God.

2. If a person stops serving God...he will no longer be holy. A person is holy for as long as they respond to their calling.

So what does Scripture say:

I have to agree with poster no. 2: Verse ping pong gets us nowhere.

I posted 1 Corinthians 15:1-2 in the O.P.
1Now I make known to you, brethren, the gospel which I preached to you, which also you received, in which also you stand,
2by which also you are saved, if you hold fast the word which I preached to you, unless you believed in vain.

The word IF is a conditional word....
God set many conditions throughout the entire Bible.
IF you do as I say...blessings.
IF you do not..........curses.

IF means that we get to choose which of the two we want:
blessings
curses

Could we stick to one verse at a time?
You're countering with John 10...would you like me to answer this or would you like me to just throw another verse at you?

I meant this to be a serious conversation.

HOW do you understand 1 Cor 15:1-2?
WHY is Paul making this statement if saints are saved forever?

I'll be more than happy to go through John 10 ONE MORE TIME,,,,after we're done with Corinthians; otherwise we're just playing ball.

 

[LovethroughDove]

Matthew 24:10-13
10“At that time many will fall away and will betray one another and hate one another.
11“Many false prophets will arise and will mislead many. 12“Because lawlessness is increased, most people’s love will grow cold.
13“But the one who endures to the end, he will be saved.

Sidenote wondering: Doesn't this look like the current state of the world?

Very interesting indeed.

Anyways, this warning is to people who will actually take it as the truth.

 

[JLB]

Part of me wants to gain a deeper understanding of the Word but the other part would love to approach Christ like a child as he says. Having only basic knowledge but immense faith

That is a good attitude.

Approaching Him, to draw near to Him, to love Him and be in His presence is how we will grow in the knowledge of Him.

Not head knowledge, but experience knowledge; knowing Him.


He will teach you, by His Spirit.


However, when He, the Spirit of truth, has come, He will guide you into all truth; for He will not speak on His own authority, but whatever He hears He will speak; and He will tell you things to come. John 16:13



John says again, this way —


But the anointing which you have received from Him abides in you, and you do not need that anyone teach you; but as the same anointing teaches you concerning all things, and is true, and is not a lie, and just as it has taught you, you will abide in Him. 1 John 2:27




JLB

 

[JLB]

”Should” or “must”?
I disagree that we MUST in order to maintain our salvation.

You are free to believe what you will.


I just don’t see this as optional if we expect to remain in Christ.


Now he who keeps His commandments abides in Him, and He in him. And by this we know that He abides in us, by the Spirit whom He has given us. 1 John 3:24


To me a command from the Lord is something we must obey.



And having been perfected, He became the author of eternal salvation to all who obey Him. Hebrews 5:9



Again, His commandments are not burdensome to us who have the Spirit.


For this is the love of God, that we keep His commandments. And His commandments are not burdensome. 1 John 5:3



The scriptures say if we claim to have eternal life, “know Him”, yet we don’t keep His commandments, we are simply not being honest.


He who says, “I know Him,” and does not keep His commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.
1 John 2:4


So yes, I would say we “must” obey His commandments, if we expect to have eternal life.





JLB

 

[GodsGrace]

Sidenote wondering: Doesn't this look like the current state of the world?

Very interesting indeed.

Anyways, this warning is to people who will actually take it as the truth.

Yes!
It looks like the world now.

You mean,,,,,
human nature has never changed?
That's in the O.T. somewhere,,,,nothing new under the sun.
Ecclesiastes perhaps?? Yes.

And, yes, the bible is chock full of the truth!

 

[GodsGrace]

”Should” or “must”?
I agree 100% that we should.
I agree that the Saints/Elect/Chosen will.
I disagree that we MUST in order to maintain our salvation.

You agree that we SHOULD obey the Lord?
When did God start making requests?

The sovereign God you believe in----
Should doesn't even exist in His language....
Don't you believe you do what HE wants you to do?
(no, really).

I believe we MUST obey God in order to maintain our salvation.
And, yes, I do believe we have a part in keeping our salvation safe.

Jesus said if we do not abide in Him, we will be discarded like an unnecessary, useless branch in John 15:6

In Matthew 5:13 we're told by Jesus Himself that if WE LOSE our saltiness we will be thrown out and be trampled underfoot since we won't be good for anything else.

According to you...does this mean we could LOSE OUR SALTINESS?


13“You are the salt of the earth; but if the salt has become tasteless, how can it be made salty again? It is no longer good for anything, except to be thrown out and trampled under foot by men.

You're the English expert with all the tenses, etc.
IF the salt has become tasteless...
it means that at one time it was tasteful...
THEN it became tasteless and was thrown out.

(Jesus uses such harsh words).

 

[GodsGrace]

Not to EARN it, just to KEEP it.
It is still a works based salvation because YOU maintained your salvation, so “saved” is You and God working together as equals.

I've never heard that man and God work together as EQUALS in order for man to keep his salvation.

The idea is that there is cooperation from man.

Cooperation means....
God asks you to be a certain way...
or do something....(that you can)

and you do it.

God is slightly superior to man...
even we non-reformed believe this...
Yes...ever so slightly superior.

And if we do NOT cooperate, it means God is doing everything for us all on His very own....

Why even bother to make us if HE has to do all the work???
He's looking for persons to do His work here on earth.


2 Timothy 2:15
15Be diligent to present yourself approved to God as a workman who does not need to be ashamed, accurately handling the word of truth.

 

[atpollard]

You are free to believe what you will.

Thank you.

I just don’t see this as optional if we expect to remain in Christ.

What a surprise, not.
I pray that someday the Holy Spirit enlightens you to the assurance that God has provided for you.

Until then, you are His child and not mine.

 

[JLB]

What a surprise, not.
I pray that someday the Holy Spirit enlightens you to the assurance that God has provided for you.

The assurance I have is He loves me and died on the cross that I may be forgiven my sins, and have a new born again nature that is filled with His Spirit.

He is for me.

When I backslide and became lost, He drew me back and restored me and blessed me.


I’m His son, not a robot.


If I neglect the things of salvation, and sowing to the Spirit, then eventually I will regress back not a sinful lifestyle.


If I’m led by the Spirit in which I invest my time towards godliness and pursue holiness, my spirit stays refreshed and filled with His Spirit. In this way I crucify the sinful deeds of the flesh, and keep my mind on things above.



There is therefore now no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus, who do not walk according to the flesh, but according to the Spirit. Romans 8:1


For to be carnally minded is death, but to be spiritually minded is life and peace. Because the carnal mind is enmity against God; for it is not subject to the law of God, nor indeed can be.
Romans 8:6-7


Therefore, brethren, we are debtors—not to the flesh, to live according to the flesh. For if you live according to the flesh you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the deeds of the body, you will live. For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, these are sons of God. Romans 8:12-14




JLB

 

[atpollard]

I have to agree with poster no. 2: Verse ping pong gets us nowhere.

When you make a false claim that something is not in scripture, and I present scriptures stating what you claim is not there ... that is not “verse ping pong”.

However, your ignoring all of the scripture that I posted to tell me that I am wrong and throw up a verse ripped from context to prove your opinion ... that IS “verse ping pong”.

So I agree that your verse ping pong will get us nowhere.
God bless.

 

[atpollard]

Here is how the scripture teaches us to remain “in Him”.


Now he who keeps His commandments abides in Him, and He in him. And by this we know that He abides in us, by the Spirit whom He has given us. 1 John 3:24

Now he who keeps His commandments abides in Him, and He in him. And by this we know that He abides in us, by the Spirit whom He has given us. 1 John 3:24

I have no idea why you can so clearly see man’s requirements without seeing the empowering means to ensure compliance that God has put in place.