The abomination of desolation

[Sinthesis]

It is impossible to make very much of Revelation into history.

Coop

Actually it is quite possible to interpret nearly all of Revelation as history. Doing so has the added benefit of freeing you from the belief that you are the center of the universe.

Oh, and the unrepentant apostate Jews of the first century themselves committed the "abomination of desolation". ...yet that does not mean we can't personally commit the same abomination to our own doom.

Sorry, let me rephrase: It is impossible to make very much of Revelation into history, and STAY TRUE to the word of God, and the intended meaning by the author. Yes, you are right, many have their own personal interpretation, and that is possible, for it has happened a LOT. But that does not make it the truth nor the intent of the author.

Coop

I doubt it was the intent of the author to have marginally self centered Christians bumbling through two thousand years of history believing that their's was the last generation; for if only Jesus would prove them right by returning to their satisfaction and smite all the sinners.
Prophecy and its fulfillment are what they are. That everyone won't choose to accept it in favor of their own preconceived expectations is also explained in the Bible.

 

[veteran]

It is impossible to make very much of Revelation into history.

Coop

Actually it is quite possible to interpret nearly all of Revelation as history. Doing so has the added benefit of freeing you from the belief that you are the center of the universe.

Oh, and the unrepentant apostate Jews of the first century themselves committed the "abomination of desolation". ...yet that does not mean we can't personally commit the same abomination to our own doom.

Interpret ALL of Revelation as past history????! That's such an 'off the wall' ludicrous statement.

For one to believe that, they would have to think TODAY, NOW, Christ's second coming has already happenned. And to believe just that, it would mean no GATHERING TO CHRIST TO BE WITH HIM WHERE HE IS. It would mean no new heaven and new earth, and the list in Revelation goes on.

ONLY a non-believer or one totally deceived by deceivers would believe a false doctrine that all of Revelation is history.

 

[francisdesales]

WRONG! That was only the first fulfilment. The Holy Spirit included that part in Luke, about the armies, so Christians would flee the city - which they did. But in Matthew and Mark, Jesus is speaking of the time of the end. Sorry, but 70 AD does not fulfill that or any of what we read in Revelation after about chapter 7. There is coming a new temple, and John was told to measure that new temple, where there is an alter and people worshipping. Just because you can't see it now, does not mean it will not be built.
And in THAT NEW temple is where the man of sin will decare that HE IS GOD.

It is impossible to make very much of Revelation into history.

I was not intending to interpret the entire Biblical idea of "abomination desolation". My contention is with the false idea that there has not BEEN an "abomination desolation". There has been, the prediction meant for those of the IMMEDIATE future, the Christians of 70 AD to stay away from Jerusalem.

I am not speaking about "beyond Revelation 7", so no, I am not "wrong". My idea does not need to speak about ANY of the Book of Revelation. I am refering more specifically to the first century Jew's idea of "abomination desolation". The term is meaningless to the reader of Revelation IF there had NOT BEEN one/two already (Maccabean Wars, Fall of Jerusalem).

Regards

 

[lecoop]

Actually it is quite possible to interpret nearly all of Revelation as history. Doing so has the added benefit of freeing you from the belief that you are the center of the universe.

Oh, and the unrepentant apostate Jews of the first century themselves committed the "abomination of desolation". ...yet that does not mean we can't personally commit the same abomination to our own doom.

Sorry, let me rephrase: It is impossible to make very much of Revelation into history, and STAY TRUE to the word of God, and the intended meaning by the author. Yes, you are right, many have their own personal interpretation, and that is possible, for it has happened a LOT. But that does not make it the truth nor the intent of the author.

Coop

I doubt it was the intent of the author to have marginally self centered Christians bumbling through two thousand years of history believing that their's was the last generation; for if only Jesus would prove them right by returning to their satisfaction and smite all the sinners.
Prophecy and its fulfillment are what they are. That everyone won't choose to accept it in favor of their own preconceived expectations is also explained in the Bible.

Let's see: when was that world wide earthquake of the 6th seal?
When was 1/3 of the trees burned up, and all the grass?
When was the sea turned to blood?

The further one goes in this direction, the more difficult it is to say these were events in the past. The truth is, they are yet in our future. When they happen, then you will know the truth of this statement. I don't think you have long to wait.

Coop

 

[lecoop]

WRONG! That was only the first fulfilment. The Holy Spirit included that part in Luke, about the armies, so Christians would flee the city - which they did. But in Matthew and Mark, Jesus is speaking of the time of the end. Sorry, but 70 AD does not fulfill that or any of what we read in Revelation after about chapter 7. There is coming a new temple, and John was told to measure that new temple, where there is an alter and people worshipping. Just because you can't see it now, does not mean it will not be built.
And in THAT NEW temple is where the man of sin will decare that HE IS GOD.

It is impossible to make very much of Revelation into history.

I was not intending to interpret the entire Biblical idea of "abomination desolation". My contention is with the false idea that there has not BEEN an "abomination desolation". There has been, the prediction meant for those of the IMMEDIATE future, the Christians of 70 AD to stay away from Jerusalem.

I am not speaking about "beyond Revelation 7", so no, I am not "wrong". My idea does not need to speak about ANY of the Book of Revelation. I am refering more specifically to the first century Jew's idea of "abomination desolation". The term is meaningless to the reader of Revelation IF there had NOT BEEN one/two already (Maccabean Wars, Fall of Jerusalem).

Regards

I understand. Certainly the Jews of Jesus time, when they heard that term, associated it with Antiochus Epiphanes, and the abomination and desolation he caused. Although Titus did not copy what Antiochus did, he certainly put a stop to the daily sacrifices, and scattered the Jews as nothing before had.

Coop

 

[francisdesales]

I was not intending to interpret the entire Biblical idea of "abomination desolation". My contention is with the false idea that there has not BEEN an "abomination desolation". There has been, the prediction meant for those of the IMMEDIATE future, the Christians of 70 AD to stay away from Jerusalem.

I am not speaking about "beyond Revelation 7", so no, I am not "wrong". My idea does not need to speak about ANY of the Book of Revelation. I am refering more specifically to the first century Jew's idea of "abomination desolation". The term is meaningless to the reader of Revelation IF there had NOT BEEN one/two already (Maccabean Wars, Fall of Jerusalem).

Regards

I understand. Certainly the Jews of Jesus time, when they heard that term, associated it with Antiochus Epiphanes, and the abomination and desolation he caused. Although Titus did not copy what Antiochus did, he certainly put a stop to the daily sacrifices, and scattered the Jews as nothing before had.

Coop

I would think that to a Jew of the Temple, its complete and total destruction would signal to them the end of the world (as they knew it) - since "God has abandoned us". A million plus Jews killed at the seige in 70 AD speaks strongly of a "desolation"!

And a bit of knowledge about the first Abomination Desolation, the Maccabean Wars, will give us meaning to the 3 1/2 years in Scriptures, as it equals the time that the Syrians desecrated the Temple, before it was cleansed upon the first Hannakuh. Of course, this 3 1/2 year reference was known to all the Jews, just as we are aware of our own "Day of Infammy" bits of history.

Regards

 

[Sinthesis]

It is impossible to make very much of Revelation into history.

Coop

Actually it is quite possible to interpret nearly all of Revelation as history. Doing so has the added benefit of freeing you from the belief that you are the center of the universe.

Oh, and the unrepentant apostate Jews of the first century themselves committed the "abomination of desolation". ...yet that does not mean we can't personally commit the same abomination to our own doom.

Interpret ALL of Revelation as past history????! That's such an 'off the wall' ludicrous statement.

For one to believe that, they would have to think TODAY, NOW, Christ's second coming has already happenned. And to believe just that, it would mean no GATHERING TO CHRIST TO BE WITH HIM WHERE HE IS. It would mean no new heaven and new earth, and the list in Revelation goes on.

ONLY a non-believer or one totally deceived by deceivers would believe a false doctrine that all of Revelation is history.

But I didn't say "ALL" now did I?
Christ's second coming, as described in Revelation, is metaphorical. He took His place as the King of God's people (Jews/Christians) when he had the alternative corrupted Temple Judaism destroyed. However, Christ will return physically at the end of the world (Act 1:11) when the great commission will have been completed. For the past nearly two thousand years Christians have been gathered to Christ at the end of their earthly bodily lives. Christianity is the New Heaven replacing the old Temple Judaism. Moreover, Christians have been remaking the earth as of Pentecost, or thereabouts. This metaphorical new heaven and earth which we live in today is a shadow of the coming new physical creation after Christ's physical return. :D

 

[Sinthesis]

Sorry, let me rephrase: It is impossible to make very much of Revelation into history, and STAY TRUE to the word of God, and the intended meaning by the author. Yes, you are right, many have their own personal interpretation, and that is possible, for it has happened a LOT. But that does not make it the truth nor the intent of the author.

Coop

I doubt it was the intent of the author to have marginally self centered Christians bumbling through two thousand years of history believing that their's was the last generation; for if only Jesus would prove them right by returning to their satisfaction and smite all the sinners.
Prophecy and its fulfillment are what they are. That everyone won't choose to accept it in favor of their own preconceived expectations is also explained in the Bible.

Let's see: when was that world wide earthquake of the 6th seal?
When was 1/3 of the trees burned up, and all the grass?
When was the sea turned to blood?

The further one goes in this direction, the more difficult it is to say these were events in the past. The truth is, they are yet in our future. When they happen, then you will know the truth of this statement. I don't think you have long to wait.

Coop

It's a metaphorical or figurative fulfillment circa 70AD.
Oh right! You want a literal fulfillment. Don't be ashamed, you're in good company:

• Mat 17:10 - And his disciples asked him, saying, Why then say the scribes that Elias must first come?
  Mat 17:11 - And Jesus answered and said unto them, Elias truly shall first come, and restore all things.
  Mat 17:12 - But I say unto you, That Elias is come already, and they knew him not, but have done unto him whatsoever they listed. Likewise shall also the Son of man suffer of them.
  Mat 17:13 - Then the disciples understood that he spake unto them of John the Baptist.

John the Baptist was not the literal Elijah(Elias), but he was a figurative Elijah who fulfilled prophesy:

• Mal 4:5 - Behold, I will send you Elijah the prophet before the coming of the great and dreadful day of the LORD:
  Mal 4:6 - And he shall turn the heart of the fathers to the children, and the heart of the children to their fathers, lest I come and smite the earth with a curse.

We will both be gathered unto Christ at our respective deaths, unless the failure of your fanciful end times expectations to come to pass within your remaining years causes you to lose your faith. Lots of first century Jews lost their faith in God because they stubbornly refused to accept the Messiah that didn't meet their personal preconceived notions of a Jewish Savior. In Revelation they are referred to as "1/3".

 

[lecoop]

I was not intending to interpret the entire Biblical idea of "abomination desolation". My contention is with the false idea that there has not BEEN an "abomination desolation". There has been, the prediction meant for those of the IMMEDIATE future, the Christians of 70 AD to stay away from Jerusalem.

I am not speaking about "beyond Revelation 7", so no, I am not "wrong". My idea does not need to speak about ANY of the Book of Revelation. I am refering more specifically to the first century Jew's idea of "abomination desolation". The term is meaningless to the reader of Revelation IF there had NOT BEEN one/two already (Maccabean Wars, Fall of Jerusalem).

Regards

I understand. Certainly the Jews of Jesus time, when they heard that term, associated it with Antiochus Epiphanes, and the abomination and desolation he caused. Although Titus did not copy what Antiochus did, he certainly put a stop to the daily sacrifices, and scattered the Jews as nothing before had.

Coop

I would think that to a Jew of the Temple, its complete and total destruction would signal to them the end of the world (as they knew it) - since "God has abandoned us". A million plus Jews killed at the seige in 70 AD speaks strongly of a "desolation"!

And a bit of knowledge about the first Abomination Desolation, the Maccabean Wars, will give us meaning to the 3 1/2 years in Scriptures, as it equals the time that the Syrians desecrated the Temple, before it was cleansed upon the first Hannakuh. Of course, this 3 1/2 year reference was known to all the Jews, just as we are aware of our own "Day of Infammy" bits of history.

Regards

If you are hinting that we should consider the 3 1/2 years in Revelation as something that happened in the past, you will have to spiriualize MOST of the book. It simply doesn't fit. Next, some research reveals that Revelation was written in 95 AD, AFTER the destruction of the temple. Of course, preterists want to have it written before 70 AD.

If we just read Revelation as it is written, and take it literally where it makes sense as literal, it is speaking of events at the end of our age, events very soon to come. As I said, if you doubt, just wait and see, for you will not have long to wait.

Coop

 

[francisdesales]

If you are hinting that we should consider the 3 1/2 years in Revelation as something that happened in the past, you will have to spiriualize MOST of the book. It simply doesn't fit. Next, some research reveals that Revelation was written in 95 AD, AFTER the destruction of the temple. Of course, preterists want to have it written before 70 AD.

I am saying that the "3 1/2 years" is a literary device that would naturally scare the you-know-what out of the readers, very familiar with their Jewish history. I do know there is plenty of evidence to suggest that Revelation might have been written earlier than 95, but I will not make that argument now.

If we just read Revelation as it is written, and take it literally where it makes sense as literal, it is speaking of events at the end of our age, events very soon to come. As I said, if you doubt, just wait and see, for you will not have long to wait.

I don't think the future predictions are meant to be taken literally, but are literary devices common in this "apocalyptic genre" of writings. I think trying to tie the end times with current events is a waste of time, personally. I believe the point of Revelation was not to "predict" the literal future, but to console Christians undergoing punishment from a tyrannical opposition - and that God would prevail. HOW is not the subject matter, in my opinion, just that He would.

Yes, in the future, God will prevail, but that is message of Revelation, nothing more specific than that.

Like trying to tie the bombing of the US Beirut Embassy to the book of Revelation.
Regards

 

[Shilohsfoal]

I think trying to tie the end times with current events is a waste of time, personally.

You think doing what Jesus said to do is a waste of time.-fiqures.

Mt 24;42
Watch therefore;for ye know not what hour your Lord doth come.

 

[lecoop]

If you are hinting that we should consider the 3 1/2 years in Revelation as something that happened in the past, you will have to spiriualize MOST of the book. It simply doesn't fit. Next, some research reveals that Revelation was written in 95 AD, AFTER the destruction of the temple. Of course, preterists want to have it written before 70 AD.

I am saying that the "3 1/2 years" is a literary device that would naturally scare the you-know-what out of the readers, very familiar with their Jewish history. I do know there is plenty of evidence to suggest that Revelation might have been written earlier than 95, but I will not make that argument now.

If we just read Revelation as it is written, and take it literally where it makes sense as literal, it is speaking of events at the end of our age, events very soon to come. As I said, if you doubt, just wait and see, for you will not have long to wait.

I don't think the future predictions are meant to be taken literally, but are literary devices common in this "apocalyptic genre" of writings. I think trying to tie the end times with current events is a waste of time, personally. I believe the point of Revelation was not to "predict" the literal future, but to console Christians undergoing punishment from a tyrannical opposition - and that God would prevail. HOW is not the subject matter, in my opinion, just that He would.

Yes, in the future, God will prevail, but that is message of Revelation, nothing more specific than that.

Like trying to tie the bombing of the US Beirut Embassy to the book of Revelation.
Regards

You misunderstand me. We cannot tie current events to the book of Revelation until they actually begin happening. Of course I am speaking of future events, in the book, not the history. Why would you think that God would go do such effort and detail, if they are not literal? We can see that much of what Daniel wrote was literal in GREAT detail, so much detail that some would believe he had written after the fact. I think you are doing the Holy Spirit a great injustice.

We are, right now, waiting for the 6th seal to be broken and those events take place. There is to be a world wide earthquake, and signs in the sun and moon, signs that Joel 2 say point to the beginning of the "day of the Lord." I know many today want to say we are already IN the 70th week or day of the Lord. Well, there were those in Paul's day saying the same thing! They were wrong then, and they are wrong now, for the same exact reasons Paul gave then.

But, I don't believe those "in Christ" will see the "sudden destruction" of this world wide earthquake, because that is when the dead in Christ rise, and we are caught up moments later. After we are caught up, and safely in heaven, Jesus will break the 7th seal, which is the official opening of the Day of the Lord, and the 70th week. Then, and ONLY then, will the trumpet judgments begin. (Please notice the huge crowd, too large to number, as seen in Chapter 7.)

They will happen just exactly as John has outlined them. You can beleive that, for it is the word of God. People may not figure it out in advance, what exactly a trumpet judgement is. But after the fact, they will know. I personally believe that the first few trumpet judgments are caused by a nuclear exchange. What can burn up all the grass, more effectively than a thermonuclear device exploded in the sky? And what would destroy 1/3 of the trees more effectively? But, that is only my opinion. However, common sense would say that with as many mad men as we see today at the head of nations, it is only a matter of time, before nukes are used.

I personally believe that much of Revelation is literal. Of course not a seven headed beast. Again I say, I don't think we have long to wait. Many have had visions of nukes hitting the US. And many have been told by Jesus, that He is coming sooner than anyone expects. I don't know about you - but I am watching for His coming.

Coop

 

[n2thelight]

Matthew 24:1 "And Jesus went out, and departed from the temple: and His disciples came to Him for to shew Him the buildings of the temple."

Matthew 24:2 "And Jesus said unto them, "See ye not all these things? verily I say unto you, There shall not be left here one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down."

Many so-called critics show their ignorance when they tell us that this event happened when The Roman General Titus came against Jerusalem in 70 A.D., and destroyed the city. However one of the points of interest of all tours to Jerusalem is the wailing wall. This is the wall that stands as the only part of Jerusalem that was left of old Jerusalem, at it's destruction.

Jesus prophecy in verse two tells us that "there shall not one stone upon another," and that condition has not happened yet. All of the stones of the temple will be turned to dust, at that end of this earth age. Zechariah 14 gives us a profile of how Jerusalem will be, and the events that shall transpire at that time. When Satan has taken his seat in Jerusalem, fulfilling the role of the Antichrist.


Matthew 24:15 "When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place (whoso readeth, let him understand"

This reverence to Daniel the prophet, Makes the book of Daniel part of the New Testament. This reference is directed to Daniel 9:27.

The "abomination" is when Satan stands in Jerusalem, and proclaims that he is God, and the world believes it. The "desolation" is an incorrect translation into the English, which should read "desolator", and Satan is the desolator that will make the claim that he is God, the true Christ. "Desolation" is a condition, in the Hebrew manuscripts it is written, "On the wings of the desolator," this is not a condition, but a entity, a person. It is through this individual, Satan that the abomination shall come from. It is the desolator [Satan] that shall cause all but the sealed of God, to become desolate, or deceived.

Daniel 9:27; "And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and the determined shall be poured upon the desolate."

The Holy place is the place that the temple sits, and this is the subject for the very first, when the buildings of the temple were observed by the disciples, and the question of what it would be like at His second advent. This is where the desolation [Satan, the Antichrist] shall sit on mount Zion, making his abominations, or statements that he is the Christ.

The world will be deceived when Satan claims himself to be Christ, for he does have supernatural powers, and he will use them to to draw the peoples of the world to come to peace. He will say, I am Jesus whom ye have been waiting for, and I have come to bring peace to the world, and the world will be brought to peace and prosperity by Satan, the Antichrist. I feel that this time of world peace will come in a matter of months, or a few years. It will come though.

How did Jesus tell us His coming would be at the second advent? Revelation 19:15, 19 tell us how Jesus will come back to earth, at His second coming:

Revelation 19:15; "And out of His mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it He should smite the nations: and He shall rule them with a rod of iron: and He treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God."

Jesus will come with a sharp sword to smite the nations of the earth. He will subdue them like grapes in the winepress, not some sweet mushy talk of peace. Jesus shall rule over them with a rod of Iron, because at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, is the start of the Millennium age. That thousand year age kingdom of Christ will be a time of learning and discipline, there will be no flesh on earth, for all will be changed to their incorruptible bodies, and will be of full sound mind, and capable of learning and understand what is being taught them.

"(Whoso readeth, let him understand" This is the statement that has the same meaning as," whosoever heareth, let him understand".

http://www.theseason.org/matthew/matthew24.htm

 

[veteran]

Not only does our Lord's Book of Revelation directly tie in with end time events, it does it in such a way that if one is not paying attention to Him in it, but listens to men's doctrines instead, they'll totally miss much of it's Truth.

An example:

Rev 11:8-9
8 And their dead bodies shall lie in the street of the great city, which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified.
9 And they of the people and kindreds and tongues and nations shall see their dead bodies three days and an half, and shall not suffer their dead bodies to be put in graves.
10 And they that dwell upon the earth shall rejoice over them, and make merry, and shall send gifts one to another; because these two prophets tormented them that dwelt on the earth.
(KJV)

People and kindreds and tongues and nations refers to many nations in the world, like "they that dwell upon the earth" refers to not just a few. They will see the dead bodies of God's two witnesses laying in the plaza.

How will so many people in the world be able to see that? Picture yourself living only back to the 16th century and trying to understand that. We know that's possible today through satellite technology. An image can be beamed up to satellite and bounced all the way to the other side of the earth. The first satellite put in space was back in what, the 1950's by the Russians?

Does that link that Revelation event to a specific time? Yes, it means it could not be possible prior to satellite technology and media communications.

Full Preterism, a doctrine of men, sees no need to be watching the times and the seasons our Lord Jesus and His Apostles gave, because of wrongly believing it's already happenned.

 

[francisdesales]

I think trying to tie the end times with current events is a waste of time, personally.

You think doing what Jesus said to do is a waste of time.-fiqures.

Mt 24;42
Watch therefore;for ye know not what hour your Lord doth come.

You like to twist people's words, whether it is mine or God's...

I do watch for the Lord. I do it in my own personal life, in the faces that I see, the people I meet and in my prayer life. If you want to attempt to tie in every "prophesy" to what has previously happened and invent such things as your evidence of the end of the world, go for it. It's been done before and every attempt has failed.

If you want to make unwarranted comments, that's your perogative. But I don't see what you are doing as the Lord's Will... We are to remain awake - by doing works of love, not guessing the end of time, Jesus said NO ONE knows when that will be, except the Father. So why bother getting all worked up over something like that? Be prepared.

Regards

 

[francisdesales]

You misunderstand me. We cannot tie current events to the book of Revelation until they actually begin happening. Of course I am speaking of future events, in the book, not the history. Why would you think that God would go do such effort and detail, if they are not literal? We can see that much of what Daniel wrote was literal in GREAT detail, so much detail that some would believe he had written after the fact. I think you are doing the Holy Spirit a great injustice.

The "detail" is based upon current events taking place as the background. The CURRENT READER would understand who the "Northern Kingdom" was, know the background of who they were, and understand the point being made.

Now, if there is some general LONG term prophesy involved that the original writer didn't know about, very well. But that sort of prophesy won't be discovered until after it happens - after the end times is done and we'll be able to look back and say "yea, this refered to that event".

You must admit that attempting to tie the "Northern Kingdom" to the United States is an extreme stretch. The Holy Spirit inspired the sacred authors to write something for the people of THAT day. Anything for us 2000 years later must be taken at the spiritual level, not the literal. Reading our historical events INTO the book of Revelation, in my opinion, is not helpful, nor is it the intent of Christ, who was NOT concerned that we would KNOW when the end times were, but that we were PREPARED, and ALWAYS prepared.

Prepared by our acts of love towards God and neighbor, not prepared by building a bomb shelter or getting your financial portfolio in order...

We are, right now, waiting for the 6th seal to be broken and those events take place. There is to be a world wide earthquake, and signs in the sun and moon, signs that Joel 2 say point to the beginning of the "day of the Lord." I know many today want to say we are already IN the 70th week or day of the Lord. Well, there were those in Paul's day saying the same thing! They were wrong then, and they are wrong now, for the same exact reasons Paul gave then.

Those "signs" are common literary devices used in practically ALL apocalyptic literature. Read some Jewish Apocalyptic stuff, and you'll see they use the same terms and devices to attempt to give the reader the "end of the world" sense - the cosmic happenings that only God can bring about.

Will God cause great earthquakes just before the end times? Perhaps He will. But again, we'll only know this AFTER it happens, when we are taken away into heaven and see the big picture that it is the end. otherwise, we end up tripping over ourselves in anxiety and worry that every earthquake "could be" the big one that begins the end...

But, I don't believe those "in Christ" will see the "sudden destruction" of this world wide earthquake, because that is when the dead in Christ rise, and we are caught up moments later.

The Church will not escape the coming trials and tribulations. Christ did not escape the sufferings the Father intended, nor will His Church. The "rapture" is wishful thinking by those who fail to understand the redemptive action of suffering and only desire to live a comfortable life, forgeting that it is ONLY those who suffer with the Christ who will inherit eternal life (Romans 8). God will not spare His Church from this redemptive action - He DESIRES we endure it!

They will happen just exactly as John has outlined them. You can beleive that, for it is the word of God. People may not figure it out in advance, what exactly a trumpet judgement is. But after the fact, they will know.

Perhaps - but because we "won't figure it out in advance", the prophesies don't do us very much good before they happen. Rather than guessing the end of the world time, wouldn't it be wise just to remain prepared, always? Isn't that the point Christ makes? Not worry about guessing the end, but just living a faithful life?

I personally believe that the first few trumpet judgments are caused by a nuclear exchange. What can burn up all the grass, more effectively than a thermonuclear device exploded in the sky? And what would destroy 1/3 of the trees more effectively? But, that is only my opinion. However, common sense would say that with as many mad men as we see today at the head of nations, it is only a matter of time, before nukes are used.

Again, you are taking too literally the intent of the author. The point is that God slowly ramps up the punishment and suffering - but man CONTINUES to remain evil and ignore God. Notice how a larger proportion is "destroyed" as you continue into the book? The intent is not literal, but to show Christians that God is a loving and patient God, attempting to knock people out of their secular sense and back to Him. He does it by SLOWLY turning their world upside down. But even if God were to destroy 1/2 the world, people still won't return to Him, that's the general point. The point --- God is Just. The evil DESERVE eternal punishment.

I personally believe that much of Revelation is literal. Of course not a seven headed beast. Again I say, I don't think we have long to wait. Many have had visions of nukes hitting the US. And many have been told by Jesus, that He is coming sooner than anyone expects. I don't know about you - but I am watching for His coming.

Coop

Be prepared for Him. I don't take much of Revelation literally, and I have the same message. Either it is ALL symbolic or ALL literal. Writers don't intermix such language, leaving the reader to guess which is literal and which is not. The description of Christ's clothes, the four riders, etc., are all metaphors and symbols that point to something else that the first century reader would understand.

Regards

 

[francisdesales]

Not only does our Lord's Book of Revelation directly tie in with end time events, it does it in such a way that if one is not paying attention to Him in it, but listens to men's doctrines instead, they'll totally miss much of it's Truth.

An example:

Rev 11:8-9
8 And their dead bodies shall lie in the street of the great city, which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified.
9 And they of the people and kindreds and tongues and nations shall see their dead bodies three days and an half, and shall not suffer their dead bodies to be put in graves.
10 And they that dwell upon the earth shall rejoice over them, and make merry, and shall send gifts one to another; because these two prophets tormented them that dwelt on the earth.
(KJV)

People and kindreds and tongues and nations refers to many nations in the world, like "they that dwell upon the earth" refers to not just a few. They will see the dead bodies of God's two witnesses laying in the plaza.

How will so many people in the world be able to see that? Picture yourself living only back to the 16th century and trying to understand that. We know that's possible today through satellite technology. An image can be beamed up to satellite and bounced all the way to the other side of the earth. The first satellite put in space was back in what, the 1950's by the Russians?

It's not necessary to take "the world" as the literal world.

The "world" can refer to the known limits - and to a first century Christian, would represent the Roman Empire. That was the world. They couldn't imagine life outside of this Empire, Rome reached everywhere. Thus, something happening in Rome (Peter and Paul executed) would be seen by everyone.

We need to take into account the context the first century author is writing, not the reader of 2000 years later.

Regards

 

[Shilohsfoal]

I think trying to tie the end times with current events is a waste of time, personally.

You think doing what Jesus said to do is a waste of time.-fiqures.

Mt 24;42
Watch therefore;for ye know not what hour your Lord doth come.

You like to twist people's words, whether it is mine or God's...

I do watch for the Lord. I do it in my own personal life, in the faces that I see, the people I meet and in my prayer life. If you want to attempt to tie in every "prophesy" to what has previously happened and invent such things as your evidence of the end of the world, go for it. It's been done before and every attempt has failed.

If you want to make unwarranted comments, that's your perogative. But I don't see what you are doing as the Lord's Will... We are to remain awake - by doing works of love, not guessing the end of time, Jesus said NO ONE knows when that will be, except the Father. So why bother getting all worked up over something like that? Be prepared.

Regards

Whos guessing?
You wouldnt know because you do not study prophecy .If you did you would understand the words"signs of the times".Jesus didnt tell anyone watch each other.He said to watch for the things he spoke of.In order to understand the things he spoke of ,one has to study.Study and show thyself approved unto God.The way I see it is if someone is interested in God,they would be intersted in his word.I understand by the word of God and by the prophecies Ive seen with my own eyes where I am in time.I also underrstand from my studies the things that will shortly come to pass.You just have no idea what Im talking about because your not interested in such things.Such things are a waste of your time so you say.

 

[johnny botwright]

i watched events unfold in Hati, total devestation, i said Lord, was there no one who could warn these people of what was about to happen, a prophecy a dream, premonition, vision, thinking of some old testement prophet proclaiming the coming event.
there was silence. and more silence then silence.
a few days later, i was watching a programe, and experts in this field, had been warning about the plates around Hati for some time, like wise we have all heard about Calafornia, yellow stone.
i started to think, please do not get to spiritual here, if we listen, if we look , yes in scripture but also to the world around us.some of the answers are there.
experts who are not even talking from a christain view point, are saying, taking every thing into consideration, we are heading into the perfect storm.
we do not want to preach fear, or sound a false alarm, or be a sleep when we should have been a wake, watchman, blowing the trumpet at the right time, and for the right reason.
hopefully with Gods help. we can bring the right message to this world, at this time, balanced, timely,
in proper context.
so people can see clearly and understand and be saved ,and turn to Jesus, those who do not, are with out excuse, and their blood is not on our hands.
may God help us to share and encourage one another, strengthen one another, and that we may in turn be able reach out to those who to , are seeking to be saved. and to be set free.

so they to can know Gods love and eternal salvation, through our Lord Jesus Christ.
johnny

 

[lecoop]

Matthew 24:1 "And Jesus went out, and departed from the temple: and His disciples came to Him for to shew Him the buildings of the temple."

Matthew 24:2 "And Jesus said unto them, "See ye not all these things? verily I say unto you, There shall not be left here one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down."

Many so-called critics show their ignorance when they tell us that this event happened when The Roman General Titus came against Jerusalem in 70 A.D., and destroyed the city. However one of the points of interest of all tours to Jerusalem is the wailing wall. This is the wall that stands as the only part of Jerusalem that was left of old Jerusalem, at it's destruction.

Jesus prophecy in verse two tells us that "there shall not one stone upon another," and that condition has not happened yet. All of the stones of the temple will be turned to dust, at that end of this earth age. Zechariah 14 gives us a profile of how Jerusalem will be, and the events that shall transpire at that time. When Satan has taken his seat in Jerusalem, fulfilling the role of the Antichrist.


Matthew 24:15 "When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place (whoso readeth, let him understand"

This reverence to Daniel the prophet, Makes the book of Daniel part of the New Testament. This reference is directed to Daniel 9:27.

The "abomination" is when Satan stands in Jerusalem, and proclaims that he is God, and the world believes it. The "desolation" is an incorrect translation into the English, which should read "desolator", and Satan is the desolator that will make the claim that he is God, the true Christ. "Desolation" is a condition, in the Hebrew manuscripts it is written, "On the wings of the desolator," this is not a condition, but a entity, a person. It is through this individual, Satan that the abomination shall come from. It is the desolator [Satan] that shall cause all but the sealed of God, to become desolate, or deceived.

Daniel 9:27; "And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and the determined shall be poured upon the desolate."

The Holy place is the place that the temple sits, and this is the subject for the very first, when the buildings of the temple were observed by the disciples, and the question of what it would be like at His second advent. This is where the desolation [Satan, the Antichrist] shall sit on mount Zion, making his abominations, or statements that he is the Christ.

The world will be deceived when Satan claims himself to be Christ, for he does have supernatural powers, and he will use them to to draw the peoples of the world to come to peace. He will say, I am Jesus whom ye have been waiting for, and I have come to bring peace to the world, and the world will be brought to peace and prosperity by Satan, the Antichrist. I feel that this time of world peace will come in a matter of months, or a few years. It will come though.

How did Jesus tell us His coming would be at the second advent? Revelation 19:15, 19 tell us how Jesus will come back to earth, at His second coming:

Revelation 19:15; "And out of His mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it He should smite the nations: and He shall rule them with a rod of iron: and He treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God."

Jesus will come with a sharp sword to smite the nations of the earth. He will subdue them like grapes in the winepress, not some sweet mushy talk of peace. Jesus shall rule over them with a rod of Iron, because at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, is the start of the Millennium age. That thousand year age kingdom of Christ will be a time of learning and discipline, there will be no flesh on earth, for all will be changed to their incorruptible bodies, and will be of full sound mind, and capable of learning and understand what is being taught them.

"(Whoso readeth, let him understand" This is the statement that has the same meaning as," whosoever heareth, let him understand".

http://www.theseason.org/matthew/matthew24.htm

Onelove,

When Jesus said that not one stone would be left on another, He was speaking specifically of the temple. And that DID come to pass in 70 AD. EVERY stone of the temple was removed, in search of melted gold.

And you are mistaken again, for there WILL be natural people on the earth. that will enter into the millennial kingdom, get married, and produce many new generations, to repopulate the earth.

Coop