The abomination of desolation

[lecoop]

Not only does our Lord's Book of Revelation directly tie in with end time events, it does it in such a way that if one is not paying attention to Him in it, but listens to men's doctrines instead, they'll totally miss much of it's Truth.

An example:

Rev 11:8-9
8 And their dead bodies shall lie in the street of the great city, which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified.
9 And they of the people and kindreds and tongues and nations shall see their dead bodies three days and an half, and shall not suffer their dead bodies to be put in graves.
10 And they that dwell upon the earth shall rejoice over them, and make merry, and shall send gifts one to another; because these two prophets tormented them that dwelt on the earth.
(KJV)

People and kindreds and tongues and nations refers to many nations in the world, like "they that dwell upon the earth" refers to not just a few. They will see the dead bodies of God's two witnesses laying in the plaza.

How will so many people in the world be able to see that? Picture yourself living only back to the 16th century and trying to understand that. We know that's possible today through satellite technology. An image can be beamed up to satellite and bounced all the way to the other side of the earth. The first satellite put in space was back in what, the 1950's by the Russians?

Does that link that Revelation event to a specific time? Yes, it means it could not be possible prior to satellite technology and media communications.

Full Preterism, a doctrine of men, sees no need to be watching the times and the seasons our Lord Jesus and His Apostles gave, because of wrongly believing it's already happenned.

Veteran, you said a mouthfull there!! Preterists are confused.

Coop

 

[lecoop]

We are, right now, waiting for the 6th seal to be broken and those events take place. There is to be a world wide earthquake, and signs in the sun and moon, signs that Joel 2 say point to the beginning of the "day of the Lord." I know many today want to say we are already IN the 70th week or day of the Lord. Well, there were those in Paul's day saying the same thing! They were wrong then, and they are wrong now, for the same exact reasons Paul gave then.

Those "signs" are common literary devices used in practically ALL apocalyptic literature. Read some Jewish Apocalyptic stuff, and you'll see they use the same terms and devices to attempt to give the reader the "end of the world" sense - the cosmic happenings that only God can bring about.

When God says the sun will be darkened and the moon turn to blood, we can be SURE these signs will happen. (But not literal blood: He only means blood red.) What if we took your idea of literal things, when it comes to "whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord shall be saved"? No, we do not have the right to say that God did not mean a verse literally. Preterists have destroyed the book of Revelation because of their mistaken theories. They must spiritualize MOST of the book, because it does not fit their theory. Why not change the theory, instead of the book? Would that be a novel idea?

Will God cause great earthquakes just before the end times? Perhaps He will. But again, we'll only know this AFTER it happens, when we are taken away into heaven and see the big picture that it is the end. otherwise, we end up tripping over ourselves in anxiety and worry that every earthquake "could be" the big one that begins the end...

There has never been a "worldwide" earthquake. God tells us that when it comes, along with the signs in the sun and moon, they will KNOW it is the prophecied event, and that the day of the Lord and God's wrath will soon begin. I am convinced that those people we are told of at the 6th seal, are wiser than many on this forum, for they recognize the signs for the beginning of the day of the Lord.

But, I don't believe those "in Christ" will see the "sudden destruction" of this world wide earthquake, because that is when the dead in Christ rise, and we are caught up moments later.

The Church will not escape the coming trials and tribulations. Christ did not escape the sufferings the Father intended, nor will His Church. The "rapture" is wishful thinking by those who fail to understand the redemptive action of suffering and only desire to live a comfortable life, forgeting that it is ONLY those who suffer with the Christ who will inherit eternal life (Romans 8). God will not spare His Church from this redemptive action - He DESIRES we endure it!

You are mistaken: those that are left behind [in the rapture] will face not only God's wrath, but Satan's wrath, and God has already said that the beast will be given authority OVER them. It has never, and will never be God's desire that His children are boiled in oil, or tortured or faced with beheading. Those that think the church will go through this time, and be protected, are sadly mistaken. And they are not understanding the scriptures that state boldly that we will be saved from His wrath, and we have no appointment with His wrath. Of course the church faces daily tribulations - but that has always been. But Romans 8 has NOTHING to do with those days of great tribulation when the beast will have authority OVER the saints. It is only the remnant that flees into the wilderness that God gives total protection to. That is written. The rapture is NOT "wishfull thinking," it is scripture. It is not in the heart of God to punish his children. He can and will remove us.

Coop wrote
[quote:3aqcuvpy]They will happen just exactly as John has outlined them. You can beleive that, for it is the word of God. People may not figure it out in advance, what exactly a trumpet judgement is. But after the fact, they will know.

Perhaps - but because we "won't figure it out in advance", the prophesies don't do us very much good before they happen. Rather than guessing the end of the world time, wouldn't it be wise just to remain prepared, always? Isn't that the point Christ makes? Not worry about guessing the end, but just living a faithful life?

Much of what is written in Revelation is for the saints alive on the earth THEN. We won't be here. So I can agree with you to a point. Yes, certainly we must be watching, and that means being prepared.

I personally believe that the first few trumpet judgments are caused by a nuclear exchange. What can burn up all the grass, more effectively than a thermonuclear device exploded in the sky? And what would destroy 1/3 of the trees more effectively? But, that is only my opinion. However, common sense would say that with as many mad men as we see today at the head of nations, it is only a matter of time, before nukes are used.

Again, you are taking too literally the intent of the author. The point is that God slowly ramps up the punishment and suffering - but man CONTINUES to remain evil and ignore God. Notice how a larger proportion is "destroyed" as you continue into the book? The intent is not literal, but to show Christians that God is a loving and patient God, attempting to knock people out of their secular sense and back to Him. He does it by SLOWLY turning their world upside down. But even if God were to destroy 1/2 the world, people still won't return to Him, that's the general point. The point --- God is Just. The evil DESERVE eternal punishment.

Who are you to say God is not literal? He went to the trouble to tell us all the grass would be burned up. Perhaps not every blade the world around, but apparently most of it. And He went to further trouble to tell us that the cattle would be perplexed.

Joel 1:18
How do the beasts groan! the herds of cattle are perplexed, because they have no pasture; yea, the flocks of sheep are made desolate.

God does not write these things in vain!! When He tells us the grass will be burned, it will happen!

I personally believe that much of Revelation is literal. Of course not a seven headed beast. Again I say, I don't think we have long to wait. Many have had visions of nukes hitting the US. And many have been told by Jesus, that He is coming sooner than anyone expects. I don't know about you - but I am watching for His coming.

Coop

Be prepared for Him. I don't take much of Revelation literally, and I have the same message. Either it is ALL symbolic or ALL literal. Writers don't intermix such language, leaving the reader to guess which is literal and which is not. The description of Christ's clothes, the four riders, etc., are all metaphors and symbols that point to something else that the first century reader would understand.

Regards

[/quote:3aqcuvpy]

You are mistaken: one does not have to take it all literally or all not literally. When it makes sense literally, we take it literally. Of course when we see Jesus, his tongue will not be a great sword. That is common sense. Sometimes Johnn tells us very literally what He saw - and sometimes he saw very literal things.

Coop

 

[n2thelight]

Matthew 24:1 "And Jesus went out, and departed from the temple: and His disciples came to Him for to shew Him the buildings of the temple."

Matthew 24:2 "And Jesus said unto them, "See ye not all these things? verily I say unto you, There shall not be left here one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down."

Many so-called critics show their ignorance when they tell us that this event happened when The Roman General Titus came against Jerusalem in 70 A.D., and destroyed the city. However one of the points of interest of all tours to Jerusalem is the wailing wall. This is the wall that stands as the only part of Jerusalem that was left of old Jerusalem, at it's destruction.

Jesus prophecy in verse two tells us that "there shall not one stone upon another," and that condition has not happened yet. All of the stones of the temple will be turned to dust, at that end of this earth age. Zechariah 14 gives us a profile of how Jerusalem will be, and the events that shall transpire at that time. When Satan has taken his seat in Jerusalem, fulfilling the role of the Antichrist.


Matthew 24:15 "When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place (whoso readeth, let him understand"

This reverence to Daniel the prophet, Makes the book of Daniel part of the New Testament. This reference is directed to Daniel 9:27.

The "abomination" is when Satan stands in Jerusalem, and proclaims that he is God, and the world believes it. The "desolation" is an incorrect translation into the English, which should read "desolator", and Satan is the desolator that will make the claim that he is God, the true Christ. "Desolation" is a condition, in the Hebrew manuscripts it is written, "On the wings of the desolator," this is not a condition, but a entity, a person. It is through this individual, Satan that the abomination shall come from. It is the desolator [Satan] that shall cause all but the sealed of God, to become desolate, or deceived.

Daniel 9:27; "And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and the determined shall be poured upon the desolate."

The Holy place is the place that the temple sits, and this is the subject for the very first, when the buildings of the temple were observed by the disciples, and the question of what it would be like at His second advent. This is where the desolation [Satan, the Antichrist] shall sit on mount Zion, making his abominations, or statements that he is the Christ.

The world will be deceived when Satan claims himself to be Christ, for he does have supernatural powers, and he will use them to to draw the peoples of the world to come to peace. He will say, I am Jesus whom ye have been waiting for, and I have come to bring peace to the world, and the world will be brought to peace and prosperity by Satan, the Antichrist. I feel that this time of world peace will come in a matter of months, or a few years. It will come though.

How did Jesus tell us His coming would be at the second advent? Revelation 19:15, 19 tell us how Jesus will come back to earth, at His second coming:

Revelation 19:15; "And out of His mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it He should smite the nations: and He shall rule them with a rod of iron: and He treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God."

Jesus will come with a sharp sword to smite the nations of the earth. He will subdue them like grapes in the winepress, not some sweet mushy talk of peace. Jesus shall rule over them with a rod of Iron, because at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, is the start of the Millennium age. That thousand year age kingdom of Christ will be a time of learning and discipline, there will be no flesh on earth, for all will be changed to their incorruptible bodies, and will be of full sound mind, and capable of learning and understand what is being taught them.

"(Whoso readeth, let him understand" This is the statement that has the same meaning as," whosoever heareth, let him understand".

http://www.theseason.org/matthew/matthew24.htm

Onelove,

When Jesus said that not one stone would be left on another, He was speaking specifically of the temple. And that DID come to pass in 70 AD. EVERY stone of the temple was removed, in search of melted gold.

And you are mistaken again, for there WILL be natural people on the earth. that will enter into the millennial kingdom, get married, and produce many new generations, to repopulate the earth.

Coop

First point

Zechariah 14:4 "And his feet shall stand in that day upon the mount of Olives, which is before Jerusalem on the east, and the mount of Olives shall cleave in the midst thereof toward the east and toward the west, and there shall be a very great valley; and half of the mountain shall remove toward the north, and half of it toward the south."

This is the time that no stone shall be left upon another.This does not happen until the Lord's day,when His feet shall touch the mount of olives....

Second point...

We will not be in flesh bodies during the millenium,when Christ returns,ALL shall be changed.The Lord's day starts the millennium...During this time, Christ shall rule from right here on earth...

Rev 20:1-6
1 And I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand.
2 And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years ,
3 And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled : and after that he must be loosed a little season.
4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years .5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished . This is the first resurrection.
6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years . (KJV)

My question to you is,in verse 6 above,where is this reign of Christ ?And if we are all changed at Christ second coming(which we shall)who will be in the millennium unchanged?

Also you believe in the rapture,so when all of you all get raptured,when do you all come back to earth?Scripture please...

 

[lecoop]

First point

Zechariah 14:4 "And his feet shall stand in that day upon the mount of Olives, which is before Jerusalem on the east, and the mount of Olives shall cleave in the midst thereof toward the east and toward the west, and there shall be a very great valley; and half of the mountain shall remove toward the north, and half of it toward the south."

This is the time that no stone shall be left upon another.This does not happen until the Lord's day,when His feet shall touch the mount of olives....

Your opinion means nothing unless you can back it up with scripture.
Of course, you cannot. It is only a theory. Therefore, I suggest you say, "I believe..." instead of stating this as a true fact. You are about 2000 years off.

Second point...

We will not be in flesh bodies during the millenium,when Christ returns,ALL shall be changed.The Lord's day starts the millennium...During this time, Christ shall rule from right here on earth...

Who will Christ be ruling?
Correct answer: natural people living in natural bodies, people getting married, having children. Again, this is one of your wild theories. Show us a verse that says ALL. There are none, of course. But there are verses that tell us people will be having children.



Rev 20:1-6
1 And I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand.
2 And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years ,
3 And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled : and after that he must be loosed a little season.
4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years .5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished . This is the first resurrection.
6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years . (KJV)

My question to you is,in verse 6 above,where is this reign of Christ ?And if we are all changed at Christ second coming(which we shall)who will be in the millennium unchanged?

Also you believe in the rapture,so when all of you all get raptured,when do you all come back to earth?Scripture please...

Where? Planet earth. But Jesus' throne will be in Jerusalem.

My question to you: who is "we?"
I can assure you it is not "all." Paul tells us who will be changed: first the dead in Christ, then "we" that are alive and remain: but it is understood that the "IN CHRIST" part refers to those that are alive and remain as much as to these that are dead. It is ONLY those that are "In Christ" that are changed. There will be multitudes of people that survive the reign of terror, and are found sheep at the judgment, and are allowed entrance into the millennial kingdom, in natural bodies.

When? We come back with Jesus on the white horses. Rev chapter 19.

Coop

 

[johnny botwright]

thought this may be of intrest, though i do not know if the picture is accurate. but there is a three dimension drawing of the old temple in Jerusalem, and where the golden mosque is standing and the holy of holys would have stood. there is a good discussion, at http://www.prophecytalk.com concerning the temple of God.

in the anti christ forum johnny

Re: The Temple of God (physical or spiritual) ?
« Reply #30 on: Yesterday at 08:57:39 PM » Quote

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

is the Abomination already here ~ see image (& imho just waiting for that 13th Marhdi chappy to arrive and sit there)

 

[francisdesales]

You wouldnt know because you do not study prophecy .If you did you would understand the words"signs of the times".

It's always the "sign of the times". The End times began with the Incarnation of the Son of God.

Guessing the literal end is not a worthy endeavor, given that so many have predicted the demise of this earth, and here we are, STILL... Perhaps Revelation was not meant for literal consumption in the 20th century??? :o

I am wondering what you do with this "knowledge" that you have achieved by this study of the exact time of the end. Has it made you a better Christian? Has it drawn you closer to Christ?

Since it hasn't made you a more loving Christian, and it wouldn't make me one either, I find the "study of prophesy" a waste of time in my Christian walk. I look for Christ in my daily walk, not worry about the last day on earth. That's my opinion, and if you don't like it, that's not my concern.

I don't see the Bible stating I have to know when the end comes before it does. I AM told to be prepared, not study the end times...

 

[Shilohsfoal]

You wouldnt know because you do not study prophecy .If you did you would understand the words"signs of the times".

It's always the "sign of the times". The End times began with the Incarnation of the Son of God.

Guessing the literal end is not a worthy endeavor, given that so many have predicted the demise of this earth, and here we are, STILL... Perhaps Revelation was not meant for literal consumption in the 20th century??? :o

I am wondering what you do with this "knowledge" that you have achieved by this study of the exact time of the end. Has it made you a better Christian? Has it drawn you closer to Christ?

Since it hasn't made you a more loving Christian, and it wouldn't make me one either, I find the "study of prophesy" a waste of time in my Christian walk. I look for Christ in my daily walk, not worry about the last day on earth. That's my opinion, and if you don't like it, that's not my concern.

I don't see the Bible stating I have to know when the end comes before it does. I AM told to be prepared, not study the end times...

Yet you spend so much time on a END TIMES/PROPHECY FORUM


It is written that the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy.Do you also find studying the testimony of Jesus to be a waste of your time as well?

 

[n2thelight]

First point

Zechariah 14:4 "And his feet shall stand in that day upon the mount of Olives, which is before Jerusalem on the east, and the mount of Olives shall cleave in the midst thereof toward the east and toward the west, and there shall be a very great valley; and half of the mountain shall remove toward the north, and half of it toward the south."

This is the time that no stone shall be left upon another.This does not happen until the Lord's day,when His feet shall touch the mount of olives....

Your opinion means nothing unless you can back it up with scripture.
Of course, you cannot. It is only a theory. Therefore, I suggest you say, "I believe..." instead of stating this as a true fact. You are about 2000 years off.

It's not my opinion,it's scriptual...In that verse(Zech 14:4)that day,is the day of the Lord,which starts the millennium,so do tell when did this verse take place?

Second point...

We will not be in flesh bodies during the millenium,when Christ returns,ALL shall be changed.The Lord's day starts the millennium...During this time, Christ shall rule from right here on earth...

Who will Christ be ruling?
Correct answer: natural people living in natural bodies, people getting married, having children. Again, this is one of your wild theories. Show us a verse that says ALL. There are none, of course. But there are verses that tell us people will be having children.

Natural flesh people will not coexist with those in there spirit bodies...
1 Corinthians 15:50
Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.

1 Corinthians 15:52
In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

Does not the above say all...Now where is the verse that says people will be having children?



Rev 20:1-6
1 And I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand.
2 And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years ,
3 And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled : and after that he must be loosed a little season.
4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years .5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished . This is the first resurrection.
6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years . (KJV)

[quote:2r5ymapo]My question to you is,in verse 6 above,where is this reign of Christ ?And if we are all changed at Christ second coming(which we shall)who will be in the millennium unchanged?

Also you believe in the rapture,so when all of you all get raptured,when do you all come back to earth?Scripture please...

Where? Planet earth. But Jesus' throne will be in Jerusalem.

My question to you: who is "we?"
I can assure you it is not "all." Paul tells us who will be changed: first the dead in Christ, then "we" that are alive and remain: but it is understood that the "IN CHRIST" part refers to those that are alive and remain as much as to these that are dead. It is ONLY those that are "In Christ" that are changed. There will be multitudes of people that survive the reign of terror, and are found sheep at the judgment, and are allowed entrance into the millennial kingdom, in natural bodies.

When? We come back with Jesus on the white horses. Rev chapter 19.

Coop[/quote:2r5ymapo]

Those that die in Christ are already in heaven...When Christ returns the age of flesh will end....

Another question,when you all get raptured,what will the people still here be doing?Also Christ returns only once,not twice...

 

[lecoop]

First point

Zechariah 14:4 "And his feet shall stand in that day upon the mount of Olives, which is before Jerusalem on the east, and the mount of Olives shall cleave in the midst thereof toward the east and toward the west, and there shall be a very great valley; and half of the mountain shall remove toward the north, and half of it toward the south."

This is the time that no stone shall be left upon another.This does not happen until the Lord's day,when His feet shall touch the mount of olives....

Your opinion means nothing unless you can back it up with scripture.
Of course, you cannot. It is only a theory. Therefore, I suggest you say, "I believe..." instead of stating this as a true fact. You are about 2000 years off.

It's not my opinion,it's scriptual...In that verse(Zech 14:4)that day,is the day of the Lord,which starts the millennium,so do tell when did this verse take place?

YOu wrote, and I quote: "This does not happen until the Lord's day,when His feet shall touch the mount of olives." This part is your opinion. History tells us that it happened in 70 AD. When Jesus said that there would not be left one stone upon another, He did not give a specific time. In fact, He never answered that question for them: "When shall these things (one stone) be?"

As for the 'When" of Zechariah 14:4 - it certain happens "in" the "day of the Lord," but at that time, the day of the Lord has been ongoing for 7 years or so.

Second point...

We will not be in flesh bodies during the millenium,when Christ returns,ALL shall be changed.The Lord's day starts the millennium...During this time, Christ shall rule from right here on earth...

Who will Christ be ruling?
Correct answer: natural people living in natural bodies, people getting married, having children. Again, this is one of your wild theories. Show us a verse that says ALL. There are none, of course. But there are verses that tell us people will be having children.

Natural flesh people will not coexist with those in there spirit bodies...
1 Corinthians 15:50
Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.

1 Corinthians 15:52
In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

Does not the above say all...Now where is the verse that says people will be having children?

I believe Paul is referring to the kingdom of God in heaven, not on earth. This scripture must be in agreement with all others.

Isaiah 65
20There shall be no more thence an infant of days, nor an old man that hath not filled his days: for the child shall die an hundred years old; but the sinner being an hundred years old shall be accursed.
21And they shall build houses, and inhabit them; and they shall plant vineyards, and eat the fruit of them.
22They shall not build, and another inhabit; they shall not plant, and another eat: for as the days of a tree are the days of my people, and mine elect shall long enjoy the work of their hands.
23They shall not labour in vain, nor bring forth for trouble; for they are the seed of the blessed of the LORD, and their offspring with them.
24And it shall come to pass, that before they call, I will answer; and while they are yet speaking, I will hear.
25The wolf and the lamb shall feed together, and the lion shall eat straw like the bullock: and dust shall be the serpent's meat. They shall not hurt nor destroy in all my holy mountain, saith the LORD.

So we find death during the Millennial reign, and children. Both would be impossible if there were not flesh and blood people.

And again:

Isaiah 11
6The wolf also shall dwell with the lamb, and the leopard shall lie down with the kid; and the calf and the young lion and the fatling together; and a little child shall lead them.
7And the cow and the bear shall feed; their young ones shall lie down together: and the lion shall eat straw like the ox.
8And the sucking child shall play on the hole of the asp, and the weaned child shall put his hand on the cockatrice' den.

Where do these children come from? Of course, from flesh and blood people.

Next, if you follow John's chronology in Revelation, WHERE are "all" changed into resurrection bodies? I cannot find such a verse. Therefore, I believe the preponderance of evidence tells us that natural people, in flesh and blood bodies will be in the millennial kingdom.



Rev 20:1-6
1 And I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand.
2 And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years ,
3 And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled : and after that he must be loosed a little season.
4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years .5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished . This is the first resurrection.
6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years . (KJV)

[quote:21celk7c]My question to you is,in verse 6 above,where is this reign of Christ ?And if we are all changed at Christ second coming(which we shall)who will be in the millennium unchanged?

Of course, it will be Jesus reigning on EARTH. Paul made it clear that it is ONLY those "in Christ" that are changed. At that time, BEFORE the 70th week, there will be untold millions that are OUT of Chirst, and will NOT be changed. Some of them turn to God during the 70th week. IF they survive the 70th week, they will STILL be in natural, flesh and blood bodies. They will be classed as sheep at the judgement. There are no verses anywhere that tell us these will get resurrection bodies.

Also you believe in the rapture,so when all of you all get raptured,when do you all come back to earth?Scripture please...

We come back WITH HIM on the white horses.

Rev 19
14And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.


Where? Planet earth. But Jesus' throne will be in Jerusalem.

My question to you: who is "we?"
I can assure you it is not "all." Paul tells us who will be changed: first the dead in Christ, then "we" that are alive and remain: but it is understood that the "IN CHRIST" part refers to those that are alive and remain as much as to these that are dead. It is ONLY those that are "In Christ" that are changed. There will be multitudes of people that survive the reign of terror, and are found sheep at the judgment, and are allowed entrance into the millennial kingdom, in natural bodies.

When? We come back with Jesus on the white horses. Rev chapter 19.

Coop

Those that die in Christ are already in heaven...When Christ returns the age of flesh will end....

That is your theory. I don't think it stands up to scripture.

Another question,when you all get raptured,what will the people still here be doing?Also Christ returns only once,not twice...[/quote:21celk7c]

You are mistaken; certainly He returns twice, once to the air, where we meet Him in the clouds, and again when He comes on the white horse. When we are raptured, those left on earth will be doing just what Jesus said they would be doing, marrying and giving in marriage, eating and drinking - - in other words, living life to the fullest they are able, pursuing happiness - that is, as much as possible during the trumpet judgements, the days of great tribulation, and finally the vials of His wrath. By that time, those that have survived with be scared almost out of their wits.

Coop

 

[veteran]

You are mistaken; certainly He returns twice, once to the air, where we meet Him in the clouds, and again when He comes on the white horse. When we are raptured, those left on earth will be doing just what Jesus said they would be doing, marrying and giving in marriage, eating and drinking - - in other words, living life to the fullest they are able, pursuing happiness - that is, as much as possible during the trumpet judgements, the days of great tribulation, and finally the vials of His wrath. By that time, those that have survived with be scared almost out of their wits.

Coop

I wouldn't be so quick to jump in Coop; you still have problems accepting that the 7th "last trump" is when Christ returns to gather the saints, AFTER the tribulation.

 

[NJBeliever]

You are mistaken; certainly He returns twice, once to the air, where we meet Him in the clouds, and again when He comes on the white horse. When we are raptured, those left on earth will be doing just what Jesus said they would be doing, marrying and giving in marriage, eating and drinking - - in other words, living life to the fullest they are able, pursuing happiness - that is, as much as possible during the trumpet judgements, the days of great tribulation, and finally the vials of His wrath. By that time, those that have survived with be scared almost out of their wits.

Coop

And this is precisely what the Bible states.

The irony in all of this is that when Jesus made his First Arrival on Earth, many were confused because the Old Testament described Him coming in two very different fashions (suffering servant, and conquering King). And now the New Testament describes Him coming in two fashions (as a thief in the clouds and as lighting flashing all across the sky for all to see with thousands upon thousands of his saints behind Him) and people are confusing the two again. History is repeating itself.


Hosea 12:10 I have also spoken by the prophets, and I have multiplied visions, and used similitudes, by the ministry of the prophets.

The Lord our God repeats everything according to His Purpose and Will.

 

[lecoop]

You are mistaken; certainly He returns twice, once to the air, where we meet Him in the clouds, and again when He comes on the white horse. When we are raptured, those left on earth will be doing just what Jesus said they would be doing, marrying and giving in marriage, eating and drinking - - in other words, living life to the fullest they are able, pursuing happiness - that is, as much as possible during the trumpet judgements, the days of great tribulation, and finally the vials of His wrath. By that time, those that have survived with be scared almost out of their wits.

Coop

I wouldn't be so quick to jump in Coop; you still have problems accepting that the 7th "last trump" is when Christ returns to gather the saints, AFTER the tribulation.

Veteran,

: -)))) And I will continue to have problems with that - simply because it was not the intent of the author.

Once you see it happen, then you will know.

Coop

 

[NJBeliever]

[
I wouldn't be so quick to jump in Coop; you still have problems accepting that the 7th "last trump" is when Christ returns to gather the saints, AFTER the tribulation.

And Veteran, I'm still waiting for you to show me that I'm incorrect in saying that the 6th Seal of Revelation Chapter 6 is the fulfillment of Isaiah 2 (the start of the Day of The Lord). Without that, you theories don't hold much water.

 

[veteran]

Good grief, it doesn't take much common sense to grasp that some of the events given on the sixth seal are also related to both sixth trumpet and seventh trumpet events. The seventh trumpet is when Christ comes to gather His saints, which is what Paul was talking about with the "last trump" in 1 Cor.15, i.e., the resurrection. That's also the time of the Day of The Lord on the seventh trumpet, when the cup of God's wrath is poured upon the wicked.

And our Lord Jesus was specific in John 5 that at the sound of His voice, at His coming, two TYPES of resurrection will occur, one for the just and another one for the unjust! None will be left on earth in the state of a corruptible body like we have today, that's what it means. The wicked will go through a change too on the "last trump", for they are of the resurrection of damnation our Lord mentioned.

Doctrines of men have taken that one Scripture of 1 Thess.4:17 about being caught up into the air to be with Christ without considering the resurrection and change Paul was talking about. What does it mean to take just one verse and make a whole doctrine out of it? All the relevant Scriptures about that event must be understood together to actually understand. That word "air" in 1 Thess.4:17 also has another meaning per the Greek, i.e., the breath, to respire.

So what was it that God 'breathed' into Adam, and he became a living soul? Was that 'breath of Life' just air of the atmosphere? No. Thus being caught up by Christ in the 'air' (breath) actually refers to the change at the resurrection to the "spiritual body" Paul taught. THAT is how we are 'siezed' ("caught up") by Christ on the "last trump". That's the real so-called rapture.

Paul said that change will occur "at the twinkling of an eye" per 1 Cor.15. At that same time the wicked are changed too, so that shows there's no such thing as a double-rapture. There is only one, after the tribulation, on the Day of The Lord when Christ comes on the "last trump", the 7th trumpet. That's when the Heavenly is going to be revealed upon this earth, and how all men will see Christ's coming as written in Rev.1. If one believes they're going to get a new corruptible flesh body when Christ comes, that's an idea allied to the theories of reincarnation.

 

[veteran]

So tell me, you double-rapture folks, what does this say?

John 5:28-29
28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear His voice,
29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.
(KJV)

You know, that's also the way Matt.25 shows the resurrection at Christ's coming...

Matt 25:31-34
31 When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory:
32 And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats:
33 And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left.
34 Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:
(KJV)

Matt 16:27
27 For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels; and then he shall reward every man according to his works.
(KJV)

Matt 24:29-31
29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
(KJV)

2 Tim 4:1
1 I charge thee therefore before God, and the Lord Jesus Christ, who shall judge the quick and the dead at his appearing and his kingdom;
(KJV)

 

[Shilohsfoal]

Dont forget Daniel 12;1-2
And at that time shall Michael stand up,the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people;and there shall be a time of trouble,such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time;and at that time thy people shall be deliverd,every one that shall be found written in the book.
And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake,some to everlasting life,and some to shame and everlating contempt.


Seems every one found written are deliverd or raised at the same time.At that time.
No other time does Daniel mention the resurrection.Then again.Those who believe in the secret rapture believe they will rise before the dead in Christ.

Rev 11;15
And the seventh angel sounded;and there were great voices in heaven,saying,The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord,and of his Christ,and he shall reign for ever and ever.
I recon I'll just have to wait untill the seventh trump .

 

[lecoop]

Good grief, it doesn't take much common sense to grasp that some of the events given on the sixth seal are also related to both sixth trumpet and seventh trumpet events. The seventh trumpet is when Christ comes to gather His saints, which is what Paul was talking about with the "last trump" in 1 Cor.15, i.e., the resurrection. That's also the time of the Day of The Lord on the seventh trumpet, when the cup of God's wrath is poured upon the wicked.

And our Lord Jesus was specific in John 5 that at the sound of His voice, at His coming, two TYPES of resurrection will occur, one for the just and another one for the unjust! None will be left on earth in the state of a corruptible body like we have today, that's what it means. The wicked will go through a change too on the "last trump", for they are of the resurrection of damnation our Lord mentioned.

Doctrines of men have taken that one Scripture of 1 Thess.4:17 about being caught up into the air to be with Christ without considering the resurrection and change Paul was talking about. What does it mean to take just one verse and make a whole doctrine out of it? All the relevant Scriptures about that event must be understood together to actually understand. That word "air" in 1 Thess.4:17 also has another meaning per the Greek, i.e., the breath, to respire.

So what was it that God 'breathed' into Adam, and he became a living soul? Was that 'breath of Life' just air of the atmosphere? No. Thus being caught up by Christ in the 'air' (breath) actually refers to the change at the resurrection to the "spiritual body" Paul taught. THAT is how we are 'siezed' ("caught up") by Christ on the "last trump". That's the real so-called rapture.

Paul said that change will occur "at the twinkling of an eye" per 1 Cor.15. At that same time the wicked are changed too, so that shows there's no such thing as a double-rapture. There is only one, after the tribulation, on the Day of The Lord when Christ comes on the "last trump", the 7th trumpet. That's when the Heavenly is going to be revealed upon this earth, and how all men will see Christ's coming as written in Rev.1. If one believes they're going to get a new corruptible flesh body when Christ comes, that's an idea allied to the theories of reincarnation.

Veteran, your ideas are so goofy, they are funny.

17Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

Where are clouds found? Of course, IN THE AIR. That is the same air we breath, but also the same air where we find clouds. It is where the great meeting will take place.

Veteran, any five year old beginning reader would get this - yet you struggle over it because of preconceived theories. Why is this so difficult for you? John is talking about the AIR, or atmosphere where clouds are found. Jesus descends down close to the earth, in the air.

Shilohs foal, Daniel was a Jew, speaking of the Jews (the righteous ones being resurrected. The church was at this time a mystery hidden in God. So why would you even think that Daniel would be speaking of US?

Veteran, as for John 5:28-29, we KNOW that the righteous are not raised at the same time as the wicked; John makes this very clear; the wicked are not raised until AFTER the 1000 years. This verse in John is a telescope view, where everthing seems to happen at the same time. Revelation, on the other hand, is a microscope view, were we see that that are different resurrections at different times for different groups of people.

The sheep and goat judgment is for the NATIONS, (living people) not for the dead, so no resurrection there.

Coop

 

[n2thelight]

Coop

Will you do me a favor and list all verses of the 2nd coming and all verses of the rapture...

 

[Shilohsfoal]

Shilohs foal, Daniel was a Jew, speaking of the Jews (the righteous ones being resurrected. The church was at this time a mystery hidden in God. So why would you even think that Daniel would be speaking of US?

Coop

Did not Daniel write "everyone found written"?
If my name is written then it would be at that time.

Now,Jesus was a jew so what makes you think you are a member of his church?
Perhaps you are a member of some gentile's church since you say the scriptures are written by jews for jews.

 

[lecoop]

Shilohs foal, Daniel was a Jew, speaking of the Jews (the righteous ones being resurrected. The church was at this time a mystery hidden in God. So why would you even think that Daniel would be speaking of US?

Coop

Did not Daniel write "everyone found written"?
If my name is written then it would be at that time.

Now,Jesus was a jew so what makes you think you are a member of his church?
Perhaps you are a member of some gentile's church since you say the scriptures are written by jews for jews.

You missed one important word:

This is an angel speaking to Daniel:

at that time thy people shall be delivered,every one that shall be found written in the book.

Yes, it does say, "everyone," but ONLY every one of a CERTAIN GROUP: Are you part of Daniel's people?

So, IF your mother was a Jew, and IF you are not a part of the body of Christ, they this verse fits you. And then, you would be raised (if you were dead) on that same day that Daniel and/or the other Old Testament saints will be raised. And I believe that day will be the same day (and at the same time) as the 7th vial is poured out, and marks the end of the 70th week. However, I won't be dogmatic on that.

Coop