onelove said:
Onelove, I don't want to reinvent the wheel. This has been done many times:
Here is one:
http://www.bibleprophesy.org/15differences.htm
Coop
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The abomination of desolation
- Thread starter Shilohsfoal
- Start date
Onelove, I don't want to reinvent the wheel. This has been done many times:
Here is one:
http://www.bibleprophesy.org/15differences.htm
Coop
Shilohsfoal
Member
Interesting.And all this time I thought Jesus is the ressurection,the truth and the life.lecoop said:
Shilohsfoal
Member
You just said that those that are not a part of the body of Christ would rise.How are they going to rise without Christ if Jesus is the ressurection?lecoop said:
I guess I cant understand the covenant God has made with you.Ive been made a partaker of the new covenant that God made with the house of Israel and the house of Judah.It sounds like you have your own special covenant.A coventant for the Gentiles.Not like the covenant God made with the jews.
I must admit you are special.You are harvested before the first fruits even.Your harvested before the harvest.
Shilohsfoal said:
You can fuss all you want, but there WAS another covenant BEFORE Jesus came. NONE from that covenant were a part of the body of Christ while they lived. None were born again while they lived. People lived and people died under that covanant. It was with the same God, but with a different set of rules. Daniel mentions when those under that covenant would rise:
12:13 But go thou thy way till the end be: for thou shalt rest, and stand in thy lot at the end of the days.
Is this the same day that the dead in Christ shall arise? I think not. The dead in Christ rise before the 70th week begins. Daniel will stand in his lot, at the end of the 70th week.
Coop
Shilohsfoal
Member
Like I said.I think I'll just have to wait untill the seventh trump.You go on ahead.lecoop said:
Besides,from what Ive read,I think I would rather get left behind than taken away.You know what I mean?
Shilohsfoal said:
Why would you ignore such clear scriptures?
First, to WHOM is God's wrath pointed?
Romans 1:18
For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness;
Ephesians 5:6
Let no man deceive you with vain words: for because of these things cometh the wrath of God upon the children of disobedience.
Colossians 3:6
For which things' sake the wrath of God cometh on the children of disobedience:
I don't think you fit these groups. Therefore, WHY don't you believe these?
1 Thessalonians 1:10
And to wait for his Son from heaven, whom he raised from the dead, even Jesus, which delivered us from the wrath to come.
1 Thessalonians 5:9
For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,
Luke 21:36
Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man.
Rev 3:10 Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth.
Are these verses so hard for you to believe?
Why not just become a "ye" or "us,"rather than be a "them?"
1 Thes 5
2 For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night.
3 For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape.
4 But ye , brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief.
8 But let us, who are of the day, be sober, putting on the breastplate of faith and love; and for an helmet, the hope of salvation.
9 For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,
10 Who died for us, that, whether we wake or sleep, we should live together with him
Do you understand that it is the plan of God that the 1 Thes. 4:17 event take place as the LAST EVENT before the day of the Lord comes with SUDDEN DESTRUCTION? We escape, while they and them suffer the sudden destruction. If you really understand the intent of the author, this sudden destruction is the mighty world wide earthquake that comes suddenly at the 6th seal. We are to be snatched up just before that mighty earthquake. it is possible that we might feel the tremors as our bodies are being changed.
However, if you desire to be left behind, I believe God gives every believe what he or she is believing for. But for me, I don't want to miss the marriage and marriage supper. Neither do I have any desire to live under God's wrath - when He has prepared a way of escape.
Coop
Shilohsfoal
Member
Lecoop
I dont worry about God's wrath because im not apponited to wrath.But I dont have to make up lies and fairy tales to decieve other people .You see I understand that my God is able to keep me safe without taking me out of the world.Oh yes my friend my God is powerful.Not even the 7 last plagues can touch me because it is written that my God has power over those plagues.
Even if I were in Egypt and the plagues of God's wrath were bitter upon the egyptians,I would be safe because Ive been cleaned by the blood of the Lamb of God.You just cant understand how the blood of the Lamb can deliver anyone.
I dont worry about God's wrath because im not apponited to wrath.But I dont have to make up lies and fairy tales to decieve other people .You see I understand that my God is able to keep me safe without taking me out of the world.Oh yes my friend my God is powerful.Not even the 7 last plagues can touch me because it is written that my God has power over those plagues.
Even if I were in Egypt and the plagues of God's wrath were bitter upon the egyptians,I would be safe because Ive been cleaned by the blood of the Lamb of God.You just cant understand how the blood of the Lamb can deliver anyone.
Shilohsfoal said:
Does anyone question God's power? I don't think so. But, neither is God a liar. Neither is God a respector of persons. If it was His plan to remove you - and you chose, of your own will, to stay, is that His problem? Why is it you ignore what God has plainly written? What you have written is in total contradiction to what God has said:
Dan 7
21I beheld, and the same horn made war with the saints, and prevailed against them;
Does prevailing against you have any meaning to you? This is saying plainly that God is NOT GOING to protect people left behind. But, just to make it plain, God gives us more.
25And he shall speak great words against the most High, and shall wear out the saints of the most High, and think to change times and laws: and they shall be given into his hand until a time and times and the dividing of time.
Not only will you be prevailed against, you will be worn out, and God will give you into his hands. This is simple English, that a beginning reader would understand. But, God wants to make SURE you get this:
Rev 13
7And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them:
So not only does God tell you plainly that you will be prevailed against, and worn out, and given into the Beast's hands, but you will be overcome.
Where are the verses you will stand on for protection during those days of great tribulation? Can you find even one?
Coop
Shilohsfoal
Member
lecoop said:
I find it interesting that you claim the church has already been raptured while giving proof that it hasnt.Are you deaf?The saints that are being persecuted by the little horn are members of the church.
Do you not know what a saint is?
And no I dont need to worry about the little horn.I dont live in the pleasant land.I live in the USA.
Dont confuse the wrath of God with the persecution of the church.God is not the little horn .
Shilohsfoal said:
You are the one that desires to be left behind, not me. Millions will turn to God during the 70th week and they too (no suprise here ) will be called "saints." Can you PROVE they are a part of the "church?" According to the verses above, MOST of them will be put to death. No one really knows for sure (unless God has revealed it to him or her) whether remote places like the Northwest territories, places like the Yukon, other very remote places will be safe. We just don't know how far reaching the tentacles of this Beast's empire will reach. I suspect, from what God has told us, that every significant nation in the world will be working with him. Therefore, people in the US would be almost as vulnerable as people in Israel or Egypt or Jordan. We do have a few wild places where people might go and not be found. Canada has many more.
Why don't you settle this issue by the word of God, once and for all? Go back and read again, the great crowd in Rev. 7. They are the raptured church. Surely you can notice that Chapter 7 is BEFORE chapter 13, when the beast is introduced?
Search all the scriptures about the wrath of God. Determine BY THE SCRIPTURES where His wrath begins. UNDERSTAND that people with no appointment never show up. Go back and read John 14 with NO PRECONCEIVED ideas. Really, there is no reason why anyone should think God will leave us here during the 70th week of DANIEL. It is not for us, designed for us, at all. Wrath is designed for sinners. There are numerous verses that tell us this.
Coop
Shilohsfoal
Member
Lecoop,God has already revealed to me where the beast is and the bounderies of his kingdom.lecoop said:
Like I said.I live in the USA.Not Israel.
Why are you telling me to serch the scriptures about the wrath of God?Jesus has alreadsy told me where the wrath of God will take place and upon whom.Jesus also told me to stay away from there during that time.
Luke 21;21-23
Then let them which are in Judea flee to the mountains and let them which are in the midst of it depart out;and let not them which are in the countries enter thereinto.
For these be the days of vengience,that all things which are written may be forfilled.
But woe unto them that are with child and to them that give suck,in those days!for there shall be great distress in the land,and wrath upon this people.
You see ,Jesus has already given me instruction concerning the wrath of God.2000 years before the fact.
Seeing that I dont live in Judea,I dont need to worry about that little horn that dwells there.
And since Jesus already told me not to enter thereinto during that time of vengeance,I wont.
No problem.
n2thelight
Member
coop,do you understand what's going to be happening during the tribulation?If you are not already sealed with the truth you will already think Christ is here,meaning,there will not be millions turnning to God.
2 Thessalonians 2:4
Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.
Do you actually believe people will worship satan knowing that he is satan,I think not,it's all about deception...The whole world will be deceived..
Revelation 12:9
And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.
The above is when satan comes pretending to be Christ...If you don't know this, God will allow you to believe the lie
2 Thessalonians 2:11
And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:
Again,the purpose of the tribulation is deception,not to say that people won't be killed,because some will be.however it won't be at the hands of satan but rather by those who think they do God a service
John 16:2
They shall put you out of the synagogues: yea, the time cometh, that whosoever killeth you will think that he doeth God service.
Curiosity question,In the book of Matt 24th chapter,Christ told all things that would happen before He returned,where is the rapture in this chapter...
Matthew 24:3 "And as He sat upon the mount of Olives the disciples came unto Him privately, saying, "Tell us, when shall these things be and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?"
Also when,as you say,the Church is raptured,will the Holy Spirit still be here,on earth?
onelove said:
Onelove, the Holy Spirit will always be everywhere. Of course He will still be here on earth. What is removed is His ability to work through believers using their authority. Because the church, with the anointing that is upon them, will be "taken out of the way."
The rapture is not to be found in Matt 24. That is Jesus answering questions to Hebrew men still under the old Testament, for the most part speaking of the end of THEIR age, the 70th week of Daniel. Jesus does, however, precede that will many things that happen to earth during the beginings sorrows, which occur during the 2000 years or so the Jews wait for their final week. The church of which you are I are a part was still hidden in the mind of God. And Jesus, who always spoke ONLY what He heard the Father speak, did not speak of the church in this chapter: it was directed to Jews, not to us. One may find hints of the church there, but trying to fit the church into the whole chapter will lead to false doctrines, such as the angels gathering the saints - which has nothing to do with the rapture of the church.
Do we attend weekly services in a synagogue?
You say, "it won't be at the hands of satan but rather by those who think they do God a service," I guess you have perfectly described Islam. But, Satan IS behind that, and will certainly be behind the deaths during the 70th week.
Always remember, Onelove, it will be ONLY those whose names are not written in the book that will be deceived. These people, WILL BE sealed by the Holy Spirit. They will not be deceived.
Revelation 13:8
And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.
Coop
Shilohsfoal
Member
Coop
You make it sound as though God doesnt know what is going on at the time of the end.
I mean,when the scripture says holy people in the book of Daniel,I understand that it is talking about holy people.People who have been cleaned by the blood of Christ.Saints and members of the church.
But you claim that jews cant be members of the church because they are jews.Do you not understand that the saints mentioned in the book of Daniel who are killed by the beast is the church?To prove it to you I will quote hebrews,the book written to jews.
Hebrews 12;23
To the general assembly and church of the first born,which are written in heaven,and to God the judge of all,and to the spirits of just men made perfect.
Why do you say the sants are not members of the church?Is it because those saints mentioned in scripture prove the pre trib rapture theory is wrong?Why do you not believe these jewish saints are members of the church?
You make it sound as though God doesnt know what is going on at the time of the end.
I mean,when the scripture says holy people in the book of Daniel,I understand that it is talking about holy people.People who have been cleaned by the blood of Christ.Saints and members of the church.
But you claim that jews cant be members of the church because they are jews.Do you not understand that the saints mentioned in the book of Daniel who are killed by the beast is the church?To prove it to you I will quote hebrews,the book written to jews.
Hebrews 12;23
To the general assembly and church of the first born,which are written in heaven,and to God the judge of all,and to the spirits of just men made perfect.
Why do you say the sants are not members of the church?Is it because those saints mentioned in scripture prove the pre trib rapture theory is wrong?Why do you not believe these jewish saints are members of the church?
Shilohsfoal said:
Sorry, but Daniel was not written to you first: it was written to Jews. Hundreds of years before the Messiah even came. Why is it you have such an urge to see the church in things back then? I hope you understand that means it would be hundreds of years before Daniel's sins could be removed. As it is written, "it is not possible that the blood of bulls and of goats should take away sins." Daniel knew nothing of the blood of Christ. But, God covered their sin on credit, knowing that one day He would have a sacrifice.
The Jews living during the 70th week are in the same boat, so to speak - because they simply do not believe Jesus was their messiah. But God made promises to them that He is going to keep. There will be many Jews and Hebrews that love God as much as possible in their flesh. Some of these will be in the remnant that escapes. Some may escape elsewhere. I suspect these may be called saints.
Then, there will be gentiles that know enough right now to be born again, but are not. When they realize they have been left behind, they will turn to Jesus and be born again. They will be called saints. Then, there are still others like you, that refuse to believe in a pre-trib rapture. Since your faith is on seeing the beast before you see Christ, I believe He will honor your faith, and you too will be left behind. So, yes, SOME of the church, born again people, will be left behind. And they are saints and will be called saints. Still other born again people are living in sin, and know they are, and many will not have time to repent. They too will be left behind. I really don't believe that born again people living in sin, will be caught away.
So, yes, there will be holy people here from several different groups. But this does not mean the rapture did not happen FIRST. It most certainly will.
And you are going to prove this how? With Hebrews 12;23? These are Jews that LOST THEIR IDENTITY in the church! Did you forget this scripture?
Galatians 3:28
There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.
When a Jew is born again, he is one with Christ just as a Gentile becomes one with Christ. Yes, he or she will still have a Jewish mother, but what difference does that make? So any Jews that are born again, will go up in the rapture, and NOT BE HERE during the 70th week. They are part of the church.
Nothing can prove the pretrib rapture wrong, because it is the mind and plan of God, and will happen before the 70th week exactly as He has planned from before the earth was begun.
Because the church is GONE. It would be impossible for them to be the church.
Coop
GodspromisesRyes
Member
The idea that Daniel must be speaking to only jews, because it was the jews who first recieved it when it was written doesnt hold water. Firstly prophesy is for the future from when it was written. MANY OT prophesies given to the jews were prophesies that Now apply directly to gentiles saved in Christ Jesus.- ALL the prophesies on the new covenant for example APPEAR to be only to jews but we are shown now in the NT that they are to all who will believe.- There is only ONE God, and ONE way of salvation which is by FAITH in Christ Jesus and NOT by flesh. There are only ONE Holy People and that is those who are saved by faith in Christ Jesus having been justified and set apart to God through Christ. There are only ONE group of saints and that is beleivers in Christ Jesus regardless of their flesh. The word of God is clear that if you do not have the Son you DO NOT HAVE THE FATHER. Therefore jews who never come to faith in Jesus are not holy people, they are not saints, they have not God. However All men, jew and gentile who come to faith and are justified by faith in Jesus are Holy- and Saints.
Furthermore those saints in the tribulation have to be in the church- because it is by CHrist Jesus that they are saved and there is only ONE BODY of Christ. They have to be the church and saved by faith in Jesus because it is by the BLOOD of Jesus and the word of their testimony that they overcome.
Furthermore, Revelation keeps telling us a key phrase " the patience of the saints" . The patience of the saints is a clear teaching in the NT to the church of Jesus Christ- HIS BODY.
Furthermore those saints in the tribulation have to be in the church- because it is by CHrist Jesus that they are saved and there is only ONE BODY of Christ. They have to be the church and saved by faith in Jesus because it is by the BLOOD of Jesus and the word of their testimony that they overcome.
Furthermore, Revelation keeps telling us a key phrase " the patience of the saints" . The patience of the saints is a clear teaching in the NT to the church of Jesus Christ- HIS BODY.
GodspromisesRyes said:
How strange that you forget the OLD Testament. Did you forget?
Deuteronomy 7:6
For thou art an holy people unto the LORD thy God: the LORD thy God hath chosen thee to be a special people unto himself, above all people that are upon the face of the earth.
God made them holy "on credit," knowing that He had a sacrifice coming.
How many places do we find reference to a remnant that will survive the next holocaust?
Zechariah 8:12
For the seed shall be prosperous; the vine shall give her fruit, and the ground shall give her increase, and the heavens shall give their dew; and I will cause the remnant of this people to possess all these things.
Zephaniah 3:13
The remnant of Israel shall not do iniquity, nor speak lies; neither shall a deceitful tongue be found in their mouth: for they shall feed and lie down, and none shall make them afraid.
Matt 25
40And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me.
Who is Jesus referring to here? Who are Jesus' "brethern?"
Zechariah 12:10
And I will pour upon the house of David, and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the spirit of grace and of supplications: and they shall look upon me whom they have pierced, and they shall mourn for him, as one mourneth for his only son, and shall be in bitterness for him, as one that is in bitterness for his firstborn.
WHO is this speaking to? "The House of David!!" So it is pointed to Hebrews, not Gentiles. We don't live in Jerusalem.
Revelation 1:7
Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen.
WHEN will they look upon Him and see that He is the one they pierced? Not before He returns on the white horse! It seems the remnant will NOT believe that Jesus is their Messiah, UNTIL they see that He is the one they pierced. But THEN, when they see Him, they do believe in Him.
So, will the millions born during the Millinnium be a part of the church too?
Will the remnant that turns to Christ when they SEE the One they pierced - - will THEY be a part of the church? I suspect you have forgotten:
Romans 11:25
For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.
There will be a day, when the "fulness" will have come in. That day ENDS the church age; anyone turning to God after that day will NOT be a part of the church. WHEN will that time be? John tells us:
Rev 6: 11And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled.
Therefore, there WILL BE "saints" during the 70th week that will NOT be a part of the church or the body of Christ. Yes, they will love Jesus. Yes, their sins will be forgiven. IF they survive those days of great tribulation, and pass the Sheep and Goat judement, they will be allowed to enter the Millennial Kingdom.
Coop
Shilohsfoal
Member
lecoop said:
Nothing can prove the pretrib rapture wrong, because it is the mind and plan of God, and will happen before the 70th week exactly as He has planned from before the earth was begun.
Because the church is GONE. It would be impossible for them to be the church.
Coop[/quote:28yxxtws]
Well,the beast is here and the king of the north will soon enter his esatate and you still havnt gone anywhere.Half of Daniel chapter 11 has taken place in your lifetime and there is nothing about a pre trib rapture in there.
And just to let you know.Everyone who is left behind are saints.Those who are taken are destroyed and burned in the fire.
n2thelight
Member
The rapture is not found there because it will not happen...You say it was written for their age,so do tell when did the following take place?
Matthew 24:15 "When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place (whoso readeth, let him understand
"Matthew 24:21 "For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be."
Matthew 24:22 "And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened."
Matthew 24:27 "For as the lightning cometh our to the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be."
Matthew 24:29 "Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not have her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:"
Matthew 24:30 "And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory."
Matthew 24:31 "And He shall send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other."
Matthew 24:34 "Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled."
Do you know what generation is being spoken of here?
Matthew 24:36 "But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but My Father only."
What day is this,or will you continue to say it was for their time?
Matthew 24:40 "Then shall two be in the field; the one shall be taken and the other left."
Now,if you think this chapter was written to hebrew men, for their time,I can see why you are sooooo confused...
In the mean time,please tell me when the above scripture's took place.....