The abomination of desolation

[Shilohsfoal]

Luke 21;21-23
Then let them which are in Judea flee to the mountains;and let them which are in the midst of it depart out;and let not them that are in the countries enter thereinto.
For these be the days of vengeance,that all things which are written may be forfilled.
But woe unto them that are with child,and to them that give suck,in those days!for there shall be great distress in the land,and wrath upon this people.


Why doesnt the people who recieve God's wrath in the above verses understand the abomination of desolation?
Have they not paid attention to the prophets God had sent to them?
Have they been mislead as to what the abomination is?

The answer is both.
They have been mislead into believing the abomination of desolation had already taken place thousands of years before the time of God's vengeance.Such jewish teachers who have not been called by God to preach had taught them wrong.
They also reject the revelation of Jesus Christ that God gave to him to show unto his servants.
In rejecting Christ,they also reject the discription of the abomination of desolation that is found in the book of revelation.

 

[RaymondKroft]

I have a quote: "I have seen no greater abomination than they who would label one outcast."

 

[francisdesales]

Luke 21;21-23
Then let them which are in Judea flee to the mountains;and let them which are in the midst of it depart out;and let not them that are in the countries enter thereinto.
For these be the days of vengeance,that all things which are written may be forfilled.
But woe unto them that are with child,and to them that give suck,in those days!for there shall be great distress in the land,and wrath upon this people.


Why doesnt the people who recieve God's wrath in the above verses understand the abomination of desolation?
Have they not paid attention to the prophets God had sent to them?
Have they been mislead as to what the abomination is?

The answer is both.
They have been mislead into believing the abomination of desolation had already taken place thousands of years before the time of God's vengeance.Such jewish teachers who have not been called by God to preach had taught them wrong.
They also reject the revelation of Jesus Christ that God gave to him to show unto his servants.
In rejecting Christ,they also reject the discription of the abomination of desolation that is found in the book of revelation.

You are wrong here and on the last thread... Starting another thread won't make it more right the second time around. To flee to the hills is a warning to believers of the day, the time when Jerusalem was coming under seige by the Roman Army. "don't enter the city, God will allow it to fall".

And there will be utter desolation, as the Temple is again trodden upon by the Gentiles (Roman Army).

So simple. In this thread and the last one...

 

[KumiOri]

The only future temple I have read about is the one constructed after Messiahs return. So if there is no temple prior, what is the holy place?

When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand Mathew 24:15

Another way of interpreting "the abomination of desolation" is also known as the "overspreading of armies that cause desolation". If Jewish history is any judge that is what it will take to cause the holy place to become desolate.

What could possibly be that holy place spoken of here? I contend it is Jerusalem herself.

And when ye shall see Jerusalem compassed with armies, then know that the desolation thereof is nigh. Luke 21:20

 

[Shilohsfoal]

You are wrong here and on the last thread... Starting another thread won't make it more right the second time around. To flee to the hills is a warning to believers of the day, the time when Jerusalem was coming under seige by the Roman Army. "don't enter the city, God will allow it to fall".

And there will be utter desolation, as the Temple is again trodden upon by the Gentiles (Roman Army).

So simple. In this thread and the last one...

You were wrong in the last thread and you are wrong in this thread as well.The people who will suffer the wrath of God are taught the same thing you are teaching.

like I said in the last thread.Half of the chapter has happened in your lifetime but you have no understanding of what is happening just as those blind teachers in Judea have no clue..

Luke 21;27-28
And then shall they see the Son of man coming in a cloud with power and great glory.
And when these things begin to come to pass,then look up,and lift up your heads;for you redemption dwaweth nigh.
Jesus hasnt come and the day of redemption hasnt passed.
Those unbelievers in Judea will suffer the wrath of God because thier teachers have taught them lies.

 

[francisdesales]

What could possibly be that holy place spoken of here? I contend it is Jerusalem herself.

And when ye shall see Jerusalem compassed with armies, then know that the desolation thereof is nigh. Luke 21:20

Exactly. Encompassed by the Roman Army while Jerusalem lay under seige in 69-70 AD.

What a desolation. Parents were forced to eat their children. NOT ONE STONE was left of the Temple.

To the first century Jew, the end of the world...

Regards

 

[francisdesales]

Luke 21;27-28
And then shall they see the Son of man coming in a cloud with power and great glory.
And when these things begin to come to pass,then look up,and lift up your heads;for you redemption dwaweth nigh.
Jesus hasnt come and the day of redemption hasnt passed.
Those unbelievers in Judea will suffer the wrath of God because thier teachers have taught them lies.

I never said that the Abomination of Desolation will not occur again. You tell us all that it HAS NOT happened, EVER, when in truth, the event has happened and will once again. Jesus clearly speaks of an event that is JUST AROUND THE CORNER. No doubt, He also has in mind a more vague event, the Parousia, but to say that there was no Abomination Desolation is clearly a mistake on your part. It has happened at least several times in Jewish history, I can imagine at least three times in 300 years, if you know anything about ancient Jewish history...

 

[Shilohsfoal]

Luke 21;27-28
And then shall they see the Son of man coming in a cloud with power and great glory.
And when these things begin to come to pass,then look up,and lift up your heads;for you redemption dwaweth nigh.
Jesus hasnt come and the day of redemption hasnt passed.
Those unbelievers in Judea will suffer the wrath of God because thier teachers have taught them lies.

I never said that the Abomination of Desolation will not occur again. You tell us all that it HAS NOT happened, EVER, when in truth, the event has happened and will once again. Jesus clearly speaks of an event that is JUST AROUND THE CORNER. No doubt, He also has in mind a more vague event, the Parousia, but to say that there was no Abomination Desolation is clearly a mistake on your part. It has happened at least several times in Jewish history, I can imagine at least three times in 300 years, if you know anything about ancient Jewish history...

You are wrong.Jesus speaks on one event called the abomination of desolation .He never says there are many abominations of desolations and he says this event will take place just before his coming.

The jews of Judaism are taught this prophecy has already passed and they are not taught anything Jesus said about it being future.For this cause they dont pay any attention to current events.As Ive stated on this board before.This chapter began with the division of the last western empire and the creation of the beast that was,and then was not and now is.The same beast the unbelieving jews wonder after.The Son of perdition is about to come into his estate so you better wake up before you sleep through the entire chapter.

 

[johnny botwright]

Jesus mentioned the abomination of Desolation, surrounding Jerusalem, standing where it should not be.

Jesus referred to the abomination he was referring to, as the same one Daniel was referring to.
Daniel 12 10-13 the abomination is set up for 1.290 days?

then Jesus speaks of a tribulation, takin place, like non other or will be, and if God did not intervien, shorten those days no one would survive.

was Jesus speaking about 70ad or some time, that could be soon.
seeing that Israel has been established again, and plan to rebuild the temple?

will Jerusalem be surrounded by armies, before Jesus returns, by whom, and when, and what will be the out come.?
what role will Israel play, Jerusalem, concerning the anti christ.? the image of the beast.
idols images are an abomination to God deuteronomy 7.25.

what is happening in Jerusalem, Israel when Jesus returns in great power and glory. with the host of heaven with him. Zechariah 14 ?
what is the feast of Booths, what does it represent, the nations shall come up for the feast of booths.?
any one know?. johnny

 

[GodspromisesRyes]

but there IS a temple!

1Cr 3:13 Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is.


1Cr 3:14 If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward.


1Cr 3:15 If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.


1Cr 3:16 Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and [that] the Spirit of God dwelleth in you?


1Cr 3:17 If any man defile the temple of God, him shall God destroy; for the temple of God is holy, which [temple] ye are.

There ya go! WE are the temple of GOD because HIS Spirit lives in us and we are holy. If any man- DEFILE THE TEMPLE OF GOD< HIM SHALL GOD DESTROY!= abomination of desolation.


2Cr 6:14 Be ye not unequally yoked together with unbelievers: for what fellowship hath righteousness with unrighteousness? and what communion hath light with darkness?


2Cr 6:15 And what concord hath Christ with Belial? or what part hath he that believeth with an infidel?


2Cr 6:16 And what agreement hath the temple of God with idols? for ye are the temple of the living God; as God hath said, I will dwell in them, and walk in [them]; and I will be their God, and they shall be my people.


2Cr 6:17 Wherefore come out from among them, and be ye separate, saith the Lord, and touch not the unclean [thing]; and I will receive you,

Again WE are the temple- do not defile yourselves with idols, unbelievers, come out from amoung them.THis is the key to understanding or as Jesus said " let he who read understand". This is why Paul said there must come a FALLING AWAY first before we see this abomination of desolation. I tis those who were part of this body, this temple who will fall away because God will send them a strong delusion to destroy them because they did not love the truth but had defiled themsleves who were Gods temple.

It is US who have the sacrifices the enemy will try to cease.

Rom 12:1 ¶ I beseech you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, that ye present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable unto God, [which is] your reasonable service.

Rom 12:2 And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what [is] that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God.

Phl 2:17 Yea, and if I be offered upon the sacrifice and service of your faith, I joy, and rejoice with you all.

Hbr 13:15 By him therefore let us offer the sacrifice of praise to God continually, that is, the fruit of [our] lips giving thanks to his name.

Hbr 13:16 But to do good and to communicate forget not: for with such sacrifices God is well pleased.

 

[Shilohsfoal]

Jesus mentioned the abomination of Desolation, surrounding Jerusalem, standing where it should not be.

Jesus referred to the abomination he was referring to, as the same one Daniel was referring to.
Daniel 12 10-13 the abomination is set up for 1.290 days?

then Jesus speaks of a tribulation, takin place, like non other or will be, and if God did not intervien, shorten those days no one would survive.

was Jesus speaking about 70ad or some time, that could be soon.
seeing that Israel has been established again, and plan to rebuild the temple?

will Jerusalem be surrounded by armies, before Jesus returns, by whom, and when, and what will be the out come.?
what role will Israel play, Jerusalem, concerning the anti christ.? the image of the beast.
idols images are an abomination to God deuteronomy 7.25.

what is happening in Jerusalem, Israel when Jesus returns in great power and glory. with the host of heaven with him. Zechariah 14 ?
what is the feast of Booths, what does it represent, the nations shall come up for the feast of booths.?
any one know?. johnny

The Israeli state is represented by the little horn that settles in the pleasant land in the next verse.
Daniel 8;9
And out of one of them came forth a little horn,which waxed exceeedingly great,toward the south,and toward the east,and toward the pleasant land.

This is speaking of how the Israelis came out of Europe during WW2 and it declared independance from Great Brittian.The last king from the west and the fifth to rule in Judea.

This little horn upon the heads of the beast is said to wear out the saints for 3 1/2 years.
After these 3 1/2 years the promised land shall be taken from that little horn and given to the saints.

Daniel 7;27

And the kingdom and dominion,and the greatness of the kingdom under the whole heaven,shall be given to the people of the saints of the most High,whose kingdom ia an everlasting kingdom,and all dominions shall serve and obey him.
See also
Mathew 8;11-12
And I say unto you,That many shall come from the east and west,and shall sit down witrh Abraham,and Issac,and Jacob,in the kingdom of heaven.
But the choldren of the kingdom shall be cast out into outer darkness;there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.


The saints in Israel will be hated for Jesus names sake by all the nations that have gatherd there.Many of those saints shall die there for not worshiping the Israeli state or recieving the mark that shall be given there.Others will be scatterd and yet there are others who will not have gone over all the cities of Judea till Christ is come.

To tell you the truth ,they are hated already,.They are told they are traders of the jewish nation and that they are not jews.The rabis of judaism cause this hatred and will cause the death of those saints.
Does any of this sound familier?

Have you ever heard of the anti missionary law passed on dec 25 1977?

 

[francisdesales]

I never said that the Abomination of Desolation will not occur again. You tell us all that it HAS NOT happened, EVER, when in truth, the event has happened and will once again. Jesus clearly speaks of an event that is JUST AROUND THE CORNER. No doubt, He also has in mind a more vague event, the Parousia, but to say that there was no Abomination Desolation is clearly a mistake on your part. It has happened at least several times in Jewish history, I can imagine at least three times in 300 years, if you know anything about ancient Jewish history...

You are wrong.Jesus speaks on one event called the abomination of desolation .He never says there are many abominations of desolations and he says this event will take place just before his coming.

With all due respect, this conversation has gone as far as it can go. YOU are not providing any evidence that I should believe your point of view, merely repeating it ad nauseum...

I have amply explained the historical facts of the matter. To the Jew, the Temple being destroyed was the end of the world. They didn't consider the earth exploding as the end of the world!!! When God's Temple was destroyed, that was ample proof that God had abandoned the Jews - meaning, for them, it was the end.

Now, I don't konw about what the Jews teach, I do agree that we should look for an upcoming Abomination, but to say one has not happened is to hide the noggin in the sand. It is quite plain that Jerusalem was utterly destroyed in 70 AD. The Temple was completely dismantled. What MORE Abomination Desolation were the Jews expecting? What could be worse, TO THEM????

Scriptures quite clearly have prophesies meant for the reader when it was written (the Gospels were written to mid-first century Jewish Christians, many living in the environs of Jerusalem and wondering about the Roman Army) AS WELL as a foreshadowing of another event.

Consider the "virgin will bear a child" in Isaiah. A prediction meant for the then current times - as well as (according to Christians) the end time prophesy refering to the Christ. Thus, there are plenty of examples of "multiple meanings" to predictions. Jesus' prediction was one of them. He was not ONLY making a prediction of the far far away future (why would a first century Christan CARE about 2010 AD?), but also one of immediate importancy - GET OUT OF JERUSALEM when you see the signs!

If you can't accept something so obvious, there is nothing more to say...

 

[Shilohsfoal]

To the Jew, the Temple being destroyed was the end of the world. They didn't consider the earth exploding as the end of the world!!! When God's Temple was destroyed, that was ample proof that God had abandoned the Jews - meaning, for them, it was the end.

.

You keep calling it God's temple as though he lived there.You dont know the abomination that brings the wrath of God upon those people.There is only one abomination of desolation in the scripture and you dont understand it.You dont even attempt to understand it.

Rev 14;10
The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God,which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation;and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels,and in the presence of the Lamb.

Daniel 9;27
And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week;and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease,and for the overspeading of abominations he shall make it desolate,even untill the consumation,and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.


Luke 21;21-23
Then let them which are in Judea flee to the mountains;and let them which are in the midst of it depart out;and let not them that are in the countries enter thereinto.
For these be the days of vengeance,that all things which are written may be forfilled.
But woe unto them that are with child,and to them that give suck,in those days!for there shall be great distress in the land,and wrath upon this people.


Look at what is going to happen to those people and the only thing you can think is that it has already passed.You dont even consider what thier sin is.

 

[francisdesales]

You keep calling it God's temple as though he lived there.

According to Scriptures, that's why the Temple was built - it was God's presence on earth, a sign to all the people that God was amongst them. Surely, you've read the Bible??? Do I need to go further into this theme that's so obvious?

You dont know the abomination that brings the wrath of God upon those people.There is only one abomination of desolation in the scripture and you dont understand it.You dont even attempt to understand it.

whatever, dude. Like I said, this ain't going anywhere, because you are so close-minded. You are so stuck on your opinions, that you refuse to hear another that makes sense, because you think it totally overturns your "plan" for mankind. I am not saying anything about the future, just that abominations have happened to the Jewish people in the past. Anyone who denies that has lost his marbles and certainly is not worthy of hearing regarding the FUTURE!

Toodles...

 

[Shilohsfoal]

You keep calling it God's temple as though he lived there.

According to Scriptures, that's why the Temple was built - it was God's presence on earth, a sign to all the people that God was amongst them. Surely, you've read the Bible??? Do I need to go further into this theme that's so obvious?

You dont know the abomination that brings the wrath of God upon those people.There is only one abomination of desolation in the scripture and you dont understand it.You dont even attempt to understand it.

whatever, dude. Like I said, this ain't going anywhere, because you are so close-minded. You are so stuck on your opinions, that you refuse to hear another that makes sense, because you think it totally overturns your "plan" for mankind. I am not saying anything about the future, just that abominations have happened to the Jewish people in the past. Anyone who denies that has lost his marbles and certainly is not worthy of hearing regarding the FUTURE!

Toodles...

Thier abominations (plural)of the past is not the abomination(singular) that causes desolation.
Maybe someday you will understand that the things of the past might point to something of the future but they are not the same thing nor were they what was being spoken of.


And by the way.A man killing a pig inside of the temple they had built is not an abomination commited by them.

 

[veteran]

Actually, I see Shilohsfoal intepretation as pretty correct.

The "days of vengeance" refers to the last phrase of Isaiah 61:2, the part which our Lord Jesus did not read at His first coming, but closed the Book beforehand, per Luke 4.

Isa 61:1-2
1 The Spirit of the Lord GOD is upon me; because the LORD hath anointed me to preach good tidings unto the meek; He hath sent me to bind up the brokenhearted, to proclaim liberty to the captives, and the opening of the prison to them that are bound;
2 To proclaim the acceptable year of the LORD, and the day of vengeance of our God; to comfort all that mourn;(KJV)

The underlined phrase our Lord Jesus didn't read at His first coming, because, that's for His second coming. That's what Luke 21 is about, because the Luke 21 events link to the prophecy of the seven seals, likewise as Matt.24 and Mark 13 do. Further down in Luke 21:27-28 is PLAINLY written Christ's second coming and the redemption.

In the Matt.24 and Mark 13 version, Christ's second coming with His angels to gather His elect from the four winds is written.

Some schools of Preterism have tried to change the meaning of all those events, even espousing that there is no literal second coming of Christ Jesus, when God's Word plainly shows the opposite. That's not a doctrine I'd want to be found in when Christ does return.

Antiochus Epiphanes in 170 B.C. served as a previous example of the "abomination of desolation" our Lord Jesus quoted from the Book of Daniel. It involves the desecration of the inner holy of holies of the temple, which is what Antiochus did, sacrificing swine upon the altar and spreading its broth around inside the temple. And our Lord Jesus and His disciples were looking directly at the existing 2nd temple when He mentioned that. The Romans didn't do what Antiochus did, because the temple caught fire before they could get control it. Titus had intended to perserve it, to do false worship no doubt. Josephus shows the Jews inside may have accidently or intentionally set the fire.

Time for many to update their understanding of this prophecy, for today in Jerusalem the orthodox Jews have the materials ready to build another temple, and start up Old Covenant worship again. And some of the Islamic clerics are getting on board by allowing it, as long as it doesn't conflict with their Dome of The Rock.

In 2 Thess.2, Paul warned of a false one who is to come and sit in the temple to proclaim himself as God, all prior to Christ's second coming and our gathering. We know the Romans did not fulfill that, and that no one has come close to doing that since Antiochus Epiphanes in 170 B.C. And that temple Paul mentions is not the temple of Christ's Body, because the true Temple of Christ's Body cannot be corrupted, since its foundation is Christ Himself, the prophets and the Apostles. One who falls away from His true spiritual Temple is cut off, for it cannot be corrupted. If it could be corrupted, it would mean Christ Jesus wouldn't be our Lord and Savior.

 

[lecoop]

What could possibly be that holy place spoken of here? I contend it is Jerusalem herself.

And when ye shall see Jerusalem compassed with armies, then know that the desolation thereof is nigh. Luke 21:20

Exactly. Encompassed by the Roman Army while Jerusalem lay under seige in 69-70 AD.

What a desolation. Parents were forced to eat their children. NOT ONE STONE was left of the Temple.

To the first century Jew, the end of the world...

Regards

WRONG! That was only the first fulfilment. The Holy Spirit included that part in Luke, about the armies, so Christians would flee the city - which they did. But in Matthew and Mark, Jesus is speaking of the time of the end. Sorry, but 70 AD does not fulfill that or any of what we read in Revelation after about chapter 7. There is coming a new temple, and John was told to measure that new temple, where there is an alter and people worshipping. Just because you can't see it now, does not mean it will not be built.
And in THAT NEW temple is where the man of sin will decare that HE IS GOD.

It is impossible to make very much of Revelation into history.

Coop

 

[KumiOri]

You have to read further in Mathew I think to get the picture when the walls fell or will fall. He was also asked when these shall be? He said there would tribulation, the likes of which has neer been seen before. Going just that far one could say a Roman seige. But he also goes on to say that imediately after the tribulation of those days we shall see His return. If it was a Roman seige being spoken of here where is our King then? As that particular tribulation is over yet the moon still shines and the sun still gives her light.

 

[Sinthesis]

It is impossible to make very much of Revelation into history.

Coop

Actually it is quite possible to interpret nearly all of Revelation as history. Doing so has the added benefit of freeing you from the belief that you are the center of the universe.

Oh, and the unrepentant apostate Jews of the first century themselves committed the "abomination of desolation". ...yet that does not mean we can't personally commit the same abomination to our own doom.

 

[lecoop]

It is impossible to make very much of Revelation into history.

Coop

Actually it is quite possible to interpret nearly all of Revelation as history. Doing so has the added benefit of freeing you from the belief that you are the center of the universe.

Oh, and the unrepentant apostate Jews of the first century themselves committed the "abomination of desolation". ...yet that does not mean we can't personally commit the same abomination to our own doom.

Sorry, let me rephrase: It is impossible to make very much of Revelation into history, and STAY TRUE to the word of God, and the intended meaning by the author. Yes, you are right, many have their own personal interpretation, and that is possible, for it has happened a LOT. But that does not make it the truth nor the intent of the author.

Coop