The apostate church QUIZ ADDED 11 7 06

[golfjack]

reply

Go for it Jg. Doesn't the Bible say something about casting down imaginations. Christians can have many problems with that. I have been to some Baptist churches and found them to be dead. Also, I have been to a Calvary Chapel Church and found that they don't like Word of Faith. I just said to the pastor, Why would you want to limit God that way. Of course we should preach sin to a unbeliever, and does not a Church have a way to admonish someone who is living in sin? That is if we can prove it by actually catching them or by Word of Knowledge like Paul did in 1 Cor. 5:5. Did you ever see a Christian Statistician who took a survey about sin, and found out that Baptists do the most sinning. What do you want to do, go back to the witch trials and burn them? My friend, it's allabout Christian balance.



May God bless, Golfjack


P.S. Let the Holy Spirit do the convicting.

 

[CP_Mike]

Re: reply

Jg, It is a proven fact that if a Preacher preaches sin to a point that the believer has a sin conscience, they probably will sin. You know I am Word of Faith, and I firmly believe what proceeds out of the mouth that is what person can be unless he is joking. Kenneth Copeland is a Proven man of God, and I really get upset with people who say that he is a false teacher. He is not. Another thing, we have way too many religious spirits in the church that to me are just busy bodies. Everyone has their own anointing, and most wouldn't understand them. Do you understand the anointing of the late Kenneth Hagin? I challenge to come up with a teaching that Kenneth Copeland has preached that is not Biblical.



May God bless, golfjack

Hi,
I could have a go at what Kenneth Copeland has said and is hard to justify what scripture teaches:

You’re all God. You don’t have a God living in you; you are one! ... When I read in the Bible where God tells Moses, ‘I AM,’ I say, ‘Yah, I am too!â€Â
( “The Force of Love,†Tape BBC-56).



"I am" is God's name (YHWH) which from Hebrew means 'The one who is'. Very dodgy claim!

 

[golfjack]

reply

What Ken was saying, believers have the nature or partake of His nature.


May God bless, golfjack

 

[jgredline]

Re: reply

Go for it Jg. Doesn't the Bible say something about casting down imaginations. Christians can have many problems with that. I have been to some Baptist churches and found them to be dead. Also, I have been to a Calvary Chapel Church and found that they don't like Word of Faith. I just said to the pastor, Why would you want to limit God that way. Of course we should preach sin to a unbeliever, and does not a Church have a way to admonish someone who is living in sin? That is if we can prove it by actually catching them or by Word of Knowledge like Paul did in 1 Cor. 5:5. Did you ever see a Christian Statistician who took a survey about sin, and found out that Baptists do the most sinning. What do you want to do, go back to the witch trials and burn them? My friend, it's allabout Christian balance.



May God bless, Golfjack




P.S. Let the Holy Spirit do the convicting.

Jack
I have no idea what you have just said here.
I would really like for you to explain this for me as well.

Jack
Please explain to me how preaching on sin leads to more sin. I have never heard of this theology. Please use bible verses to teach me this.

 

[CP_Mike]

Re: reply

What Ken was saying, believers have the nature or partake of His nature.


May God bless, golfjack

Hi Golfjack,
This cannot be, because 'In Christ" and "Co Heirs" have different meanings to 'nature' We all have God's image, but this does not make us 'Divine'. Immortality is a gift from God, but when we receive immortality does not make us God.

 

[golfjack]

reply

Jg. I challenge you to find one verse in the Bible that calls a believer a sinner.

Also, I don't agree with Calvanist thelogy, but I wouldn't call John Mcarthur a false teacher.



May God bless.

 

[jgredline]

I am still waiting jack

Jack
Please explain to me how preaching on sin leads to more sin. I have never heard of this theology. Please use bible verses to teach me this.

You made a claim that this is biblical. I am asking you to teach me.
I understand your upset because I called Ken Copeland a false teacher. CP pointed out one of his many false teachings. I could come up with bumches of them and he has lied many times as well.

I don't believe in Calvinist theology either and would not call John Mcarthur a false teacher either because he is not.

Now again I ask you this since you see this as an attack. I am asking you to teach me.
Jack
Please explain to me how preaching on sin leads to more sin. I have never heard of this theology. Please use bible verses to teach me this.

 

[D46]

D46
Your story sounds similar to mine. You pastors name would not happen to be AJ would it? I know its not, but it sounds so similar. Then again why would the devil change his tactics if they work.

Nope-maybe they're brothers-in law!! So, you know exactly where I 'm coming from on this.

A bit of information on these Word/Faith promoters is in order at this time.

http://www.pawcreek.org/articles/endtim ... peland.htm

http://www.rapidnet.com/~jbeard/bdm/exp ... eneral.htm

http://www.rapidnet.com/~jbeard/bdm/exp ... eneral.htm

Romans 16:17-18 (KJV) Now I beseech you, brethren, mark them which cause divisions and offences contrary to the doctrine which ye have learned; and avoid them. For they that are such serve not our Lord Jesus Christ, but their own belly; and by good words and fair speeches deceive the hearts of the simple.

 

[golfjack]

reply

Romans 3:23 says For all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God. This verse is for unbelievers. This is why we need a Savior. Many Christians seem to think that verse is for them, but how can it if you are blood washed. Your problem could be that you don't know who you are in Christ. Kenneth Copleland has a teaching on this and if you find fault with it, I don''t know what to say. Wouldn't it would be better to preach something like the Believer is dead to sin. That is our spirits that are dead. I know you have a problem with spirit, soul, and body. This is what I first teach to a Believer. Our flesh can committ an act of sin. This is why we teach that we must renew our minds, and cast off the old with the Word of God. We are new creatures in Christ Jesus. I believe the best way to preach to believers is to get them to make positive confessions about who they are in Christ, instead of going to the throne of grace like whipped puppy's.

I believe Christians beat themselves up way too much. And if a Preacher beats them up by preaching sin all the time, then they think God is throwing darts at them. What did the Father of the prodigal son do when he came back. He just welcomed him back into the family. There are so many verses in the Bible that tell us who we are in Christ, that can help a believer. My friend, wee have been forgiven of all sin ( past, present, and future). Doesn't Jesus plead the blood over us when we do sin? Besides that, a believer knows when he sins because he has a conscience. Bottom line, wouldn't it be better to have a God conscience than a sin conscience. If people have a problem with what I preach, then take it to God. Anyway, this is what I have been taught. And to complain about how one worships in Church is silly and ridiclulous.



May God bless, golfjack

 

[jgredline]

Re: reply

Jg. I challenge you to find one verse in the Bible that calls a believer a sinner.
May God bless.

Jack
I will answer your question on the hopes you will answer me. Keep in mind that the context of these scriptures is for the believer.

James 5:14-16
14 Is any sick among you? let him call for the elders of the church; and let them pray over him, anointing him with oil in the name of the Lord: 15 And the prayer of faith shall save the sick, and the Lord shall raise him up; and if he have committed sins, they shall be forgiven him. 16 Confess your faults one to another, and pray one for another, that ye may be healed. The effectual fervent prayer of a righteous man availeth much.
King James Version.


Fellowship with Him and One Another
1 John 1:5-10
5 This is the message which we have heard from Him and declare to you, that God is light and in Him is no darkness at all. 6 If we say that we have fellowship with Him, and walk in darkness, we lie and do not practice the truth. 7 But if we walk in the light as He is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus Christ His Son cleanses us from all sin.
8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. 9 If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. 10 If we say that we have not sinned, we tmake Him a liar, and His word is not in us.
The New King James Version.

fellowship with God requires that we acknowledge the truth concerning ourselves. For instance, to deny that we have a sinful nature means self-deception and untruthfulness. Notice that John makes a distinction between sin (v. 8) and sins (v. 9). Sin refers to our corrupt, evil nature. Sins refers to evils that we have done. Actually what we are is a lot worse than anything we have ever done. But, praise the Lord, Christ died for our sin and our sins.
Conversion does not mean the eradication of the sin nature. Rather it means the implanting of the new, divine nature, with power to live victoriously over indwelling sin.

1 john 5:16-17
16 If anyone sees his brother sinning a sin which does not lead to death, he will ask, and tHe will give him life for those who commit sin not leading to death. uThere is sin leading to death. vI do not say that he should pray about that. 17 wAll unrighteousness is sin, and there is sin not leading to death.
The New King James Version.

John gives an instance in which the believer can have confidence in prayer, but he also cites an example in which confidence is not possible. If anyone sees his brother sinning a sin which does not lead to death, he will ask, and He will give him life for those who commit sin not leading to death. This is a case where a Christian sees a fellow believer engaging in some sinful activity. It is not a sin of a nature as to bring death on the person committing it. In such an instance, the believer can ask for the recovery of the erring person, and God will give the petitioner life for those who do not sin unto death.
On the other hand, there is sin leading to death, and the apostle says, I do not say that he should pray about that.


OK
Here are some answers to your question.

 

[D46]

14 Is any sick among you? let him call for the elders of the church; and let them pray over him, anointing him with oil in the name of the Lord: 15 And the prayer of faith shall save the sick, and the Lord shall raise him up; and if he have committed sins, they shall be forgiven him. 16 Confess your faults one to another, and pray one for another, that ye may be healed. The effectual fervent prayer of a righteous man availeth much.
King James Version.

This is one of many reasons why I lilke the KJB. It says to confess your faults...not your sins as the NIV and others do which gives leeway for another doctrine-auricular confession.

James 5:14-16 (New International Version, ESV, and NASB)
The Amplified indicated both faults and sins.

14Is any one of you sick? He should call the elders of the church to pray over him and anoint him with oil in the name of the Lord. 15And the prayer offered in faith will make the sick person well; the Lord will raise him up. If he has sinned, he will be forgiven. 16Therefore confess your sins to each other and pray for each other so that you may be healed. The prayer of a righteous man is powerful and effective.

Jack how one worships in church or elsewhere is not silly and ridiculous.

Ezekiel 8:16-18 (KJV) And he brought me into the inner court of the LORD'S house, and, behold, at the door of the temple of the LORD, between the porch and the altar, were about five and twenty men, with their backs toward the temple of the LORD, and their faces toward the east; and they worshipped the sun toward the east. Then he said unto me, Hast thou seen this, O son of man? Is it a light thing to the house of Judah that they commit the abominations which they commit here? for they have filled the land with violence, and have returned to provoke me to anger: and, lo, they put the branch to their nose. Therefore will I also deal in fury: mine eye shall not spare, neither will I have pity: and though they cry in mine ears with a loud voice, yet will I not hear them.

 

[golfjack]

reply

All of what you say is correct. But to preach sin to a believer from the Pulpit is wrong in my opinion. This is personal, and remember you must see a sinner in the act of sinning. Yes, we are told not to pray for the sin which leads to death. This sin is the unpardonable sin, which cannot be forgiven, which iis denying Jesus Christ after they were saved. They denied that Jesus rose again, and notice they were all spirt-filled. This is what the Book of acts says. I believe we are not to lord it over people, and put them on performance. How can a Believer have a sin nature? If he does, he is not saved. God looks at the believer's heart, and the heart or spirit is perfect before God. And yes, we can lose fellowship with God, but not relationship with God. Continuous sin will lead to death ( physical). Check out Romans 3.



May God bless, golfjack

 

[D46]

Yes, we are told not to pray for the sin which leads to death. This sin is the unpardonable sin, which cannot be forgiven, which iis denying Jesus Christ after they were saved.

Wrong Jack-The unpardonable sin is blasphemy against the Holy Ghost of which there is no forgiveness.

Matthew 12:31-32 (KJV) Wherefore I say unto you, All manner of sin and blasphemy shall be forgiven unto men: but the blasphemy against the Holy Ghost shall not be forgiven unto men. And whosoever speaketh a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but whosoever speaketh against the Holy Ghost, it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this world, neither in the world to come.

Blasphemy against the Holy Ghost is attributing the power of God to that of satan.

How can a Believer have a sin nature? If he does, he is not saved.

Where are you getting your theology from? We were BORN with a sin nature, Jack...you should know this. We got our ionherited sin nature from Brother Adam...

Romans 5:12 (KJV) Wherefore, as by one man (Adam) sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:

We ALL have the capacity to sin every minute of every day. It is only by full submission to God that we can hope to overcome this sin nature as we are by nature the children of wrath.

Ephesians 2:3 (KJV) Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others.

Isaiah 64:6 (KJV) But we are all as an unclean thing, and all our righteousnesses are as filthy rags; and we all do fade as a leaf; and our iniquities, like the wind, have taken us away.

Do you think that just because you became a believer in the Lord Jesus Christ that you are now immune from having your old Adamic nature not flare up everyday in some way or the other, either by thought, word or deed? If so, you're a saint for sure and you should not be here but walking streets of gold!

 

[jgredline]

Re: reply

Romans 3:23 says For all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God. This verse is for unbelievers. This is why we need a Savior. Many Christians seem to think that verse is for them, but how can it if you are blood washed. Your problem could be that you don't know who you are in Christ. Kenneth Copleland has a teaching on this and if you find fault with it, I don''t know what to say. Wouldn't it would be better to preach something like the Believer is dead to sin. That is our spirits that are dead. I know you have a problem with spirit, soul, and body. This is what I first teach to a Believer. Our flesh can committ an act of sin. This is why we teach that we must renew our minds, and cast off the old with the Word of God. We are new creatures in Christ Jesus. I believe the best way to preach to believers is to get them to make positive confessions about who they are in Christ, instead of going to the throne of grace like whipped puppy's.

I believe Christians beat themselves up way too much. And if a Preacher beats them up by preaching sin all the time, then they think God is throwing darts at them. What did the Father of the prodigal son do when he came back. He just welcomed him back into the family. There are so many verses in the Bible that tell us who we are in Christ, that can help a believer. My friend, wee have been forgiven of all sin ( past, present, and future). Doesn't Jesus plead the blood over us when we do sin? Besides that, a believer knows when he sins because he has a conscience. Bottom line, wouldn't it be better to have a God conscience than a sin conscience. If people have a problem with what I preach, then take it to God. Anyway, this is what I have been taught. And to complain about how one worships in Church is silly and ridiclulous.
May God bless, golfjack

Jack While I was at the Harvest Festival a couple of hours ago, I was thinking about this and was not going to say anything, but fealt I had to. I could not let it go. If I am wrong please show me so I can repent. This is the way I understand Romans. I have studied the entire book of Romans in the Greek. This book is very Rich in theology or very simple in simply reading it for what it says. Make no mistake about it, this book was written for the Christians..


Romans 1:1-7
1 Paul, a servant of Jesus Christ, called to be an apostle, separated unto the gospel of God, 2 (Which he had promised afore by his prophets in the holy scriptures,) 3 Concerning his Son Jesus Christ our Lord, which was made of the seed of David according to the flesh; 4 And declareda to be the Son of God with power, according to the spirit of holiness, by the resurrection from the dead: 5 By whom we have received grace and apostleship, for obedienceb to the faith among all nations, for his name: 6 Among whom are ye also the called of Jesus Christ: 7 To all that be in Rome, beloved of God, called to be saints: Grace to you and peace from God our Father, and the Lord Jesus Christ.
King James Version.

11 For I long to see you, that I may impart unto you some spiritual gift, to the end ye may be established; 12 That is, that I may be comforted together withd you by the mutual faith both of you and me.
King James Version.

The Letter is addressed to all believers in Rome, and not (as in other Epistles) to a single church. The final chapter of the letter indicates that there were several gatherings of believers in the city, and this salutation embraces them all.
Beloved of God, called to be saints. These two lovely names are true of all who have been redeemed by the precious blood of Christ. These favored ones are objects of divine love in a special way, and are also called to be set apart to God from the world, for that is the meaning of saints.

Paul’s characteristic greeting combines grace and peace. Grace (charis) is a Greek emphasis, and peace (shalom) is the traditional Jewish greeting. The combination is especially appropriate because Paul’s message tells how believing Jews and Gentiles are now one new man in Christ.
The grace mentioned here is not the grace that saves (Paul’s readers were already saved) but the grace that equips and empowers for Christian life and service. Peace is not so much peace with God (the saints already had that because they were justified by faith) but rather the peace of God reigning in their hearts while they were in the midst of a turbulent society.

Grace and peace came from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ, strongly implying the equality of the Son with the Father. I mention and say all of this because the book of Romans was clearly written for believers. Non of it was ever written for the non believer.It is the most complete exposition of biblical truths for the Christian in all the NT.

The context of this verse really starts in Verse 19, but I will start here.
Romans 3:23
23 For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God
King James Version.

3:19 Paul explains that when the law speaks, it speaks to those who are under the lawâ€â€the people of Israelâ€â€in order that every mouth, Jew and Gentile, may be stopped, and all the world be brought in guilty before God.
3:20 No one can be justified by keeping the law. The law was not given to justify people but to produce the knowledge of sinâ€â€not the knowledge of salvation, but the knowledge of sin.
We could never know what a crooked line is unless we also knew a straight line. The law is like a straight line. When men test themselves by it, they see how crooked they are.
We can use a mirror to see that our face is dirty, but the mirror is not designed to wash the dirty face. A thermometer will tell if a person has a fever, but swallowing the thermometer will not cure the fever.
The law is good when it is used to produce conviction of sin, but it is worthless as a savior from sin.
3:21 We now come to the heart of the Letter to the Romans, when Paul answers the question: According to the gospel, how can ungodly sinners be justified by a holy God?
He begins by saying that the righteousness of God has been revealed apart from the law. This means that a plan or program has been revealed by which God can righteously save unrighteous sinners, and that it is not by requiring men to keep the law. Because God is holy, He cannot condone sin or overlook it or wink at it. He must punish it. And the punishment for sin is death. Yet God loves the sinner and wants to save him; there is the dilemma. God’s righteousness demands the sinner’s death, but His love desires the sinner’s eternal happiness. The gospel reveals how God can save sinners without compromising His righteousness.
This is where this verse is misunderstood
This righteous plan is witnessed by the Law and the Prophets. It was foretold in the types and shadows of the sacrificial system that required the shedding of blood for atonement. And it was foretold by direct prophecies. If need be I can look them up for you.
3:22 Verse 21 told us that this righteous salvation is not obtained on the basis of law-keeping. Now the apostle tells us how it is obtainedâ€â€through faith in Jesus Christ. Faith here means utter reliance on the living Lord Jesus Christ as one’s only Savior from sin and one’s only hope for heaven. It is based on the revelation of the Person and work of Christ as found in the Bible.
Faith is not a leap in the dark. It demands the surest evidence, and finds it in the infallible word of God. Faith is not illogical or unreasonable. What is more reasonable than that the creature should trust his Creator?

Paul goes on to tell us that this salvation is to all and on all who believe. It is to all in the sense that it is available to all, offered to all, and sufficient for all. But it is only on those who believe; that is, it is effective only in the lives of those who accept the Lord Jesus by a definite act of faith. The pardon is for all, but it becomes valid in an individual’s life only when he accepts it.
When Paul says that salvation is available to all, he includes Gentiles as well as Jews, because now there is no difference. The Jew has no special privilege and the Gentile is at no disadvantage.
Now all this sets up the next verse.
3:23 The availability of the gospel is as universal as the need. And the need is universal because all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God. Everybody sinned in Adam; when he sinned, he acted as the representative for all his descendants. But men are not only sinners by nature; they are also sinners by practice. They fall short, in themselves, of the glory of God.
Sin is any thought, word, or deed that falls short of God’s standard of holiness and perfection. It is a missing of the mark, a coming short of the target.
Sin is lawlessness (1 Jn. 3:4), the rebellion of the creature’s will against the will of God. Sin is not only doing what is wrong but the failure to do what one knows to be right (Jas. 4:17). Whatever is not of faith is sin (Rom. 14:23). This means that it is wrong for a man to do anything about which he has a reasonable doubt. If he does not have a clear conscience about it, and yet goes ahead and does it, he is sinning.
“All unrighteousness is sin†(1 Jn. 5:17). And the thought of foolishness is sin (Prov. 24:9). Sin begins in the mind. When encouraged and entertained, it breaks forth into an act, and the act leads on to death. Sin is often attractive when first contemplated, but hideous in retrospect.
Sometimes Paul distinguishes between sins and sin. Sins refer to wrong things that we have done. Sin refers to our evil natureâ€â€that is, to what we are. What we are is a lot worse than anything we have ever done. But Christ died for our evil nature as well as for our evil deeds. God forgives our sins, but the Bible never speaks of His forgiving our sin. Instead, He condemns or judges sin in the flesh (Rom. 8:3).
There is also a difference between sin and transgression. Transgression is a violation of a known law. Stealing is basically sinful; it is wrong in itself. But stealing is also a transgression when there is a law that forbids it. “Where there is no law there is no transgression†(Rom. 4:15).
Paul has shown that all men have sinned and continually come short of God’s glory. Now he goes on to present the remedy in the following chapters. Justification and sanctification.

While I am at it Romans Chapter 7 PAUL is speaking of himself as a wretched sinner. Some liberal teachers think paul is describing his pre conversion state, but this can very easaly disproved. easily

Prayfully consider what I have said here.
blessings,
Javier

 

[SputnikBoy]

I figured this is something we could discuss in a peaceful manner.

Do you think any of these as described below are on this forum?

1 This know also, that in the last days perilous times shall come. 2 For men shall be lovers of their own selves, covetous, boasters, proud, blasphemers, disobedient to parents, unthankful, unholy, 3 Without natural affection, trucebreakers, false accusers, incontinent, fierce, despisers of those that are good, 4 Traitors, heady, highminded, lovers of pleasures more than lovers of God; 5 Having a form of godliness, but denying the power thereof: from such turn away. 6 For of this sort are they which creep into houses, and lead captive silly women laden with sins, led away with divers lusts, 7 Ever learning, and never able to come to the knowledge of the truth. 8 Now as Jannes and Jambres withstood Moses, so do these also resist the truth: men of corrupt minds, reprobate F6 concerning the faith. 9 But they shall proceed no further: for their folly shall be manifest unto all men, as theirs also was. 2 Timothy 3:1-9

I agree with you. If they were born again the spirit who reveals truth would show them there apostasy. This is very true of those 6 or 7 that are frequent posters here.

I’m sure glad you wanted to discuss this topic in a peaceful manner, jg.

There is little doubt that between you and Solo you go out of your way to provoke the sensibilities of others. And, you're allowed to get away with it because you and Solo think 'mainstream'. Isn't referring to others as 'apostates' a term you sanctimoniously use to denigrate others?

At least some of the 6 or 7 ‘apostates’ you speak of display their Christianity with far less arrogance, dogma, and condemnation than do either you or Solo, jg. That alone speaks volumes as to where they are coming from and I trust that visitors to the forum will take note.

Unlike you, jg, and others who incessantly have to remind people that they are ‘BORN AGAIN Christians, I have never heard any of the ‘apostates’ refer to themselves as being anything other than ‘humble’ Christians. Furthermore, they consistently present their case not only with integrity and aplomb but also with much scriptural support.

Perhaps your halos have gotten too large and fallen over your eyes and ears.

Just a thought.

But, I’ve said my piece. Now we can go back to discussing the topic in a peaceful manner with those who happen to agree with you.

 

[golfjack]

reply

I will get back to you tomorrow. The only thing I can say and leave you with is that the Book of Romans is the most misunderstand book in the Bible. Paul always gives contrasting views. Sometimes he speaks about flesh, spirit, to the unbelievers. He is in and out. If one has a nature of sin, it was necessary to be born again, and his sin nature no longer exists. We are called Holy, priestly, kingly, righteous. What part of you is holy? It is your spirit. You see, God has done all he is going to do about saving us. The rest is up to us. Our soul, and body is not born again. You see, I believe what the Bible says about me and believe it says what I can have.



May God bless, golfjack

 

[jgredline]

Re: reply

I will get back to you tomorrow. The only thing I can say and leave you with is that the Book of Romans is the most misunderstand book in the Bible. Paul always gives contrasting views. Sometimes he speaks about flesh, spirit, to the unbelievers. He is in and out. If one has a nature of sin, it was necessary to be born again, and his sin nature no longer exists. We are called Holy, priestly, kingly, righteous. What part of you is holy? It is your spirit. You see, God has done all he is going to do about saving us. The rest is up to us. Our soul, and body is not born again. You see, I believe what the Bible says about me and believe it says what I can have.



May God bless, golfjack

OK Jack
Sounds good. Have a good night,
javier

 

[jgredline]

I found this short commentary on the web.

Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference:
For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God [Rom. 3:22–23].

Let me give you a free rendering of these verses: Even the righteousness from God which is obtained by faith in Jesus Christ unto all and upon all that believe: for there is no distinction: for all have sinned and fall short of the glory [approval] of God. That this righteousness is by faith, not by works, the Lord Jesus made clear when they asked Him, “… What shall we do, that we might work the works of God?†Jesus answered and said unto them, “This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent†(John 6:28–29). And the important thing about securing this righteousness of God is not that there’s any merit in your faith or that there’s merit in just believing. Because, actually, faith is not a work on your part. The object of faith is the important thing. Spurgeon put it like this: “It’s not thy hope in Christ which saves you. It’s Christ. It’s not thy joy in Christ that saves you. It is Christ. And it is not thy faith in Christ that saves you, though that be the instrument, it is Christ’s blood and merit.†Now, friend, that’s very important to nail in our thinking.
And that righteousness is like a garment. It is available to all, but it only comes upon all that believe. And then he says that it’s needed by everyone: “For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God.†Now that doesn’t mean that there is not a difference in sinners. Let me illustrate this with a very homely illustration. Let’s suppose that we folk here in California play a game called “Jumping to Catalina.†Catalina Island is out in the Pacific Ocean at least fifteen or twenty miles from the shore of California. We will go down to the pier in Santa Monica, and we will take a big running jump, and we’ll see who can jump to Catalina. Somebody’s going to say, “That’s an impossible jump!†Frankly, no one has jumped it, but it’s a lot of fun playing the game. Suppose you and I play the game. You may be able to jump farther than I can jump, but you will miss Catalina. And the fellow who jumps the farthest gets the wettest and has to swim farther back to shore. Of course, nobody could jump to Catalina. Some are better than others, but it’s rather childish to play a game like that and say, “I jumped farther than you did. I’m better than you are, and I’m betteran half the church members.†Suppose you areâ€â€and you may well beâ€â€but what difference does that make? You have not come up to the glory of God.
McGee, J. V. (1997, c1981). Thru the Bible commentary.

It is speaking of the believer.

 

[golfjack]

reply

Let's keep this debate in it's proper persceptive. Yes, All have sinned ( past tense). All are born in sin because of Adam's fall ( the first sin) in the Garden of Eden.Therefore, just as through one man sin entered the world, and death through sin, and thus death spread to all men, because all sinned ( Rom. 5:12). The solution is to be born again, and declared not quilty before the eyes of God. I admit that you are right when you say that Paul is talking to all believers and unbelievers, but for a believer, it's past, and we are not to look at our past sins. We do have 1 John 1:9 to confess our sins, but this verse is for us and if we don't we either condemn ourselves or the enemy condemns us. There is no condemnation in the Lord. Therefore, I don't call myself a sinner no more because I have the righteousness of Christ.



May God bless, golfjack

 

[jgredline]

Jack
You are right in that through the shedding of the blood of Christ, we are made riteous and can approach God, but to say we are not sinners, I disagree with that. I know that I am a sinner and will be a sinner until I am physically dead.
The Apostle paul called himself the chief of sinners.
1 Tim 1:15 This is a faithful saying, and worthy of all acceptation, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners; of whom I am chief. KJV


Now if you believe differently, thats OK, by me. we can agree to disagree.


I am still curious about this though.
PostPosted: Sun Oct 29, 2006 3:52 pm Post subject:
Jack
Please explain to me how preaching on sin leads to more sin. I have never heard of this theology. Please use bible verses to teach me this.