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D46
Guest
A good read, jg...do some more. 
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The apostate church QUIZ ADDED 11 7 06
- Thread starter jgredline
- Start date
S
SputnikBoy
Guest
Um ...though I might later deny ever having said this, jg, I absolutely agree with your views in your above posts concerning the so-called 'Prosperity Movement'. I'm sooooo pleased that you're pointing the finger in the right direction this time ...giving those SDAs a break for a while, eh ...? :D
reply
My input about the Church of Laodicea is the following:
Obvoiusly this church is spiritually bankrupt. They are just trusting in themselves for their riches, and not trusting in God for their riches. They cerrtainly aren't Born Again Christians. I believe what the Bible says in John 3:3 where Jesus says, I say to you, unless one is born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God. God's riches are plentiful and do enrich our walk with the Lord. Notice, Jesus is outside the door of this Church calling them to repentance. This tells me that they are not saved. You see, we can either open the door and accept Christ as our personal Lord and Savior or keep the door closed and reject Him.
Do we have churches like that today? I believe we do, and even have people in the cults who call themselves born again Christians, but are not. JW's, Mormons, Catholic's, and many others I imagine. How many churches do you know who are lukewarm? Plenty of them today. Saying that sin is something that isn't, twisting around scripture to fit their own needs. Spiritually bankrupt they are. They ordain gay ministers, say abortion is OK, persecute the jews with their words, believe in progressive govt, and finally have become very liberal in their politic's, and the things of God. In essence, we see this church coming into physical manifestation, birth pains if you will. Many Churches today will not preach a bloody cross because they don't want to offend anyone.
In the end after believers are taken out of the world, I believe you will have a one world church that is full of spiritual fornication. But, this is what must happen to fulfill scripture. I my best advice for someone who is in this condition or belongs to a church like this, get out and turn away and get yourself saved and join a Bible based church.
May God bless, golfjack
My input about the Church of Laodicea is the following:
Obvoiusly this church is spiritually bankrupt. They are just trusting in themselves for their riches, and not trusting in God for their riches. They cerrtainly aren't Born Again Christians. I believe what the Bible says in John 3:3 where Jesus says, I say to you, unless one is born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God. God's riches are plentiful and do enrich our walk with the Lord. Notice, Jesus is outside the door of this Church calling them to repentance. This tells me that they are not saved. You see, we can either open the door and accept Christ as our personal Lord and Savior or keep the door closed and reject Him.
Do we have churches like that today? I believe we do, and even have people in the cults who call themselves born again Christians, but are not. JW's, Mormons, Catholic's, and many others I imagine. How many churches do you know who are lukewarm? Plenty of them today. Saying that sin is something that isn't, twisting around scripture to fit their own needs. Spiritually bankrupt they are. They ordain gay ministers, say abortion is OK, persecute the jews with their words, believe in progressive govt, and finally have become very liberal in their politic's, and the things of God. In essence, we see this church coming into physical manifestation, birth pains if you will. Many Churches today will not preach a bloody cross because they don't want to offend anyone.
In the end after believers are taken out of the world, I believe you will have a one world church that is full of spiritual fornication. But, this is what must happen to fulfill scripture. I my best advice for someone who is in this condition or belongs to a church like this, get out and turn away and get yourself saved and join a Bible based church.
May God bless, golfjack
jgredline
Member
Jack
I agree with most if not all of it.
When I was writing about this church I got to thinking of my EX DENOMINATION that I was a member of for a long time. I used to belong to the Free Methodist denomination which as far as denominations go, they are still OK.
This denomination is based on Armenianism theology. Very missions oriented.
They were doing well until some brain child got the idea of having the churches use one of the largest apostates this world has ever know, Rick Warrens Purpose driven life CULT classic. http://www.pro4machineworks.com/purpose ... _cult.html
Anyway to give the Church denomination credit, they repented of the false teacher and his teachings. Of course much damage was done and many people left..
The very bad denominations today hands down is the
Episcopal and Presbyterian church.
We will take a brief look at where they came from and what they have become. They have become an abomination to the Lord Jesus Christ with there allowing Gay Marriage, and well, we will discuss more about these cults shortly. We will see what Church model the JW and the Mormons fit as well.
I agree with most if not all of it.
When I was writing about this church I got to thinking of my EX DENOMINATION that I was a member of for a long time. I used to belong to the Free Methodist denomination which as far as denominations go, they are still OK.
This denomination is based on Armenianism theology. Very missions oriented.
They were doing well until some brain child got the idea of having the churches use one of the largest apostates this world has ever know, Rick Warrens Purpose driven life CULT classic. http://www.pro4machineworks.com/purpose ... _cult.html
Anyway to give the Church denomination credit, they repented of the false teacher and his teachings. Of course much damage was done and many people left..
The very bad denominations today hands down is the
Episcopal and Presbyterian church.
We will take a brief look at where they came from and what they have become. They have become an abomination to the Lord Jesus Christ with there allowing Gay Marriage, and well, we will discuss more about these cults shortly. We will see what Church model the JW and the Mormons fit as well.
reply
Church of Ephesus:
This local congregation had left its first love; Christ therefore warned that He would remove its lampstand, its distinction as a local church, unless it repented ( 2:4, 5). Christ is apparently unwilling to have a church continue to exist without love. Leaving their love was fatal unless they repented. The love which they left was their first love, love for the Savior. To this assembly of believers, Christ came as the One who held the Church's life in His hand. Christ proomised, to him who overcomes I will give to eat from the tree of life, which is in the midst of the Paradise of God ( 2:7).
Wow, it's pretty hard to apply this today. I will give you my opinion and don't take it to heart. I think that there will be some Born Again Christians that will not be raptured. First of all, many do not believe in the rapture. But it takes faith to be raptured? Just an opinion. Many today will not go to church for one reason or another. I guess, they don't love Jesus enough to go to church and praise and worship Him. My opinion is that many will not be raptured because they lost their first love. Welcome any other opinions.
May God bless, golfjack
Church of Ephesus:
This local congregation had left its first love; Christ therefore warned that He would remove its lampstand, its distinction as a local church, unless it repented ( 2:4, 5). Christ is apparently unwilling to have a church continue to exist without love. Leaving their love was fatal unless they repented. The love which they left was their first love, love for the Savior. To this assembly of believers, Christ came as the One who held the Church's life in His hand. Christ proomised, to him who overcomes I will give to eat from the tree of life, which is in the midst of the Paradise of God ( 2:7).
Wow, it's pretty hard to apply this today. I will give you my opinion and don't take it to heart. I think that there will be some Born Again Christians that will not be raptured. First of all, many do not believe in the rapture. But it takes faith to be raptured? Just an opinion. Many today will not go to church for one reason or another. I guess, they don't love Jesus enough to go to church and praise and worship Him. My opinion is that many will not be raptured because they lost their first love. Welcome any other opinions.
May God bless, golfjack
jgredline
Member
speaking of the apostate church
Episcopal Leader Denies Bible Condemns Gays!!!!
Woman Believes People Are Created Gay
http://www.theindychannel.com/family/10 ... etail.html
Episcopal Leader Denies Bible Condemns Gays!!!!
Woman Believes People Are Created Gay
http://www.theindychannel.com/family/10 ... etail.html
S
SputnikBoy
Guest
As has been shown time and time again on this forum alone ...no two people seem to agree on EVERY scriptural issue. Therefore, we could all point the finger at 'another Church' as being an example of an 'apostate Church'. So, WHO are the experts on this issue ...those who make the loudest noise? Or, could the apostate Church be any Church but 'my Church' ...?
jgredline
Member
SputnikBoy said:
This is why we have to look at the scriptures and be honest with ourselves. If the teaching goes against what the bible teaches, well then there is a red flag. I am not speaking of those things that we can agree to disagree on. If you go back and read my post, I have used myself and my ex church and ex denomination as an example. Now to be fair and It will all come to make sense in the next few days or weeks. Now I mentioned the episcopal church. This very liberal church is clearly a part of the apostate church. Now if the Rapture were to happen today, would this mean that the entire episcopal church would be left behind? NO. many of the episcopalians will be raptured as they have placed their faith in Jesus Christ. The female Bishop that is a lesbian liberal who says gay marriage is ok would be left behind. If she were a child of God, she would be preaching in harmony with the bible, not against it. Its that simple.
S
SputnikBoy
Guest
jgredline said:
I don't believe it's that simple at all, jg. You're playing God. How do YOU know who will be left behind? Incidentally, I have no belief in 'the rapture' (as per Baptist Church) to begin with. THAT is unscriptural. 'Rapture' as in the resurrection of the righteous at Christ's return ...yes. So, unless the latter 'rapture' is what you are referring to then I believe that YOUR preaching is not in harmony with the scriptures either. Does this mean that, according to MY theology, YOU will be left behind?
U
unred typo
Guest
SputnikBoy wrote:
I don't believe it's that simple at all, jg. You're playing God. How do YOU know who will be left behind? Incidentally, I have no belief in 'the rapture' (as per Baptist Church) to begin with. THAT is unscriptural. 'Rapture' as in the resurrection of the righteous at Christ's return ...yes. So, unless the latter 'rapture' is what you are referring to then I believe that YOUR preaching is not in harmony with the scriptures either. Does this mean that, according to MY theology, YOU will be left behind?
‘Sput’ may not be right about everything, but he is right about that, Jgredline. You shouldn’t flip out and go all red on him for simply admonishing you not to ‘judge lest you be judged.’ It’s one thing to study what Jesus said about the churches in Revelations, but it’s quite another to privately interpret it as present day organizations. You just don’t know enough about what God sees in their hearts, it’s that simple. You can call the ‘act of homosexuality’ a sin, but if you condemn her as unsaved because she s not preaching in harmony with the Bible, and you offend in your theology in the smallest point, you will be condemned by your own mouth.
I would hope someone was kind enough to correct me if I should slip up and judge another person to condemn them and hopefully, I would be thankful for the correction.
I don't believe it's that simple at all, jg. You're playing God. How do YOU know who will be left behind? Incidentally, I have no belief in 'the rapture' (as per Baptist Church) to begin with. THAT is unscriptural. 'Rapture' as in the resurrection of the righteous at Christ's return ...yes. So, unless the latter 'rapture' is what you are referring to then I believe that YOUR preaching is not in harmony with the scriptures either. Does this mean that, according to MY theology, YOU will be left behind?
‘Sput’ may not be right about everything, but he is right about that, Jgredline. You shouldn’t flip out and go all red on him for simply admonishing you not to ‘judge lest you be judged.’ It’s one thing to study what Jesus said about the churches in Revelations, but it’s quite another to privately interpret it as present day organizations. You just don’t know enough about what God sees in their hearts, it’s that simple. You can call the ‘act of homosexuality’ a sin, but if you condemn her as unsaved because she s not preaching in harmony with the Bible, and you offend in your theology in the smallest point, you will be condemned by your own mouth.
I would hope someone was kind enough to correct me if I should slip up and judge another person to condemn them and hopefully, I would be thankful for the correction.
jgredline
Member
Unread Typo
Thanks for opinion. I appreciate it. It amazes me how the topic of homosexauality always brings out the worst in people. If you to have a problem with that sin, take it up with God. Don't shoot the mesenger.
Did you read all of my posts in this thread?
Did you not just judge me?
As far as what the bible says about judging lets see what the bible teaches on this.
Matthew 7:1-6 1 "Judge not, that you be not judged. 2 For with what judgment you judge, you will be judged; and with the measure you use, it will be measured back to you. 3 And why do you look at the speck in your brother's eye, but do not consider the plank in your own eye? 4 Or how can you say to your brother, 'Let me remove the speck from your eye'; and look, a plank is in your own eye? 5 Hypocrite! First remove the plank from your own eye, and then you will see clearly to remove the speck from your brother's eye. 6 Do not give what is holy to the dogs; nor cast your pearls before swine, lest they trample them under their feet, and turn and tear you in pieces.
Ok, so what does all this mean?
Matthew 7:1-6
7:1 Sometimes these words of our Lord are misconstrued by people to prohibit all forms of judgment. No matter what happens, they piously say, “Judge not, that you be not judged. But Jesus is not teaching that we are to be undiscerning Christians. He never intended that we abandon our critical faculty or discernment. The NT has many illustrations of legitimate judgment of the condition, conduct, or teaching of others. In addition, there are several areas in which the Christian is commanded to make a decision, to discriminate between good and bad or between good and best. Some of these include:
1. When disputes arise between believers, they should be settled in the church before members who can decide the matter (1 Cor. 6:18).
2. The local church is to judge serious sins of its members and take appropriate action (Matt. 18:17; 1 Cor. 5:9-13).
3. Believers are to judge the doctrinal teaching of teachers and preachers by the Word of God (Matt. 7:15-20; 1 Cor. 14:29; 1 Jn. 4:1).
4. Christians have to discern if others are believers in order to obey Pauls command in 2 Corinthians 6:14.
5. Those in the church must judge which men have the qualifications necessary for elders and deacons (1 Tim. 3:1-13).
6. We have to discern which people are unruly, faint hearted, weak, etc., and treat them according to the instructions in the Bible (e.g., 1 Thess. 5:14).
7:2 Jesus warned that unrighteous judgment would be repaid in kind: “For with what judgment you judge, you will be judged. This principle of reaping what we sow is built into all human life and affairs. Mark applies the principle to our appropriation of the Word (4:24) and Luke applies it to our liberality in giving (6:38).
7:35 Jesus exposed our tendency to see a small fault in someone else while ignoring the same fault in ourselves. He purposely exaggerated the situation (using a figure of speech known as hyperbole) to drive home the point. Someone with a plank in his eye often finds fault with the speck in the eye of another, not even noticing his own condition. It is hypocritical to suppose that we could help someone with a fault when we ourselves have a greater fault. We must remedy our own faults before criticizing them in others.
7:6 Verse 6 proves that Jesus did not intend to forbid every kind of judgment. He warned His disciples not to give holy things to dogs or to cast ... pearls before swine . Under the Mosaic Law dogs and swine were unclean animals and here the terms are used to depict wicked people. When we meet vicious people who treat divine truths with utter contempt and respond to our preaching of the claims of Christ with abuse and violence, we are not obligated to continue to share the gospel with them. To press the matter only brings increased condemnation to the offenders.
So to summarize;
What was Jesus calling for when He ordered His followers to “judge not? Did He want us to close our eyes to error and evil? Did He intend that managers forgo critical performance reviews of their employees? Or that news editors and art critics pull their punches? Or that juries refrain from judgment? Should we decline any assessment of others, since none of us is perfect?
No, those would all be mis applications of Jesus teaching. In the first place, He was not commanding blind acceptance, but grace toward others. Since all of us are sinners, we need to stop bothering with the failings of others and start attending to serious issues of our own. His words here extend His earlier expose of hypocrisy. Don't blame or put down others while excusing or exalting yourself, Jesus was saying.
Is there room, then, to assess others, especially when we know we are not perfect? Yes, but only in Jesus way: with empathy and fairness, and with a readiness to freely and fully forgive. When we are called upon to correct others, we should act like a good doctor whose purpose is to bring healing not like an enemy who attacks.
Needless to say, it requires spiritual perception to discern these people. Perhaps that is why the next verses take up the subject of prayer, by which we can ask for wisdom. I should also point out, that it is my belief that Jesus here is speaking to his church.. For the non believer, there will be the great white throne judgment seat. I will address that down below..
To read more click here.
http://www.pro4machineworks.com/Judging.html
Thanks for opinion. I appreciate it. It amazes me how the topic of homosexauality always brings out the worst in people. If you to have a problem with that sin, take it up with God. Don't shoot the mesenger.
Did you read all of my posts in this thread?
Did you not just judge me?
As far as what the bible says about judging lets see what the bible teaches on this.
Matthew 7:1-6 1 "Judge not, that you be not judged. 2 For with what judgment you judge, you will be judged; and with the measure you use, it will be measured back to you. 3 And why do you look at the speck in your brother's eye, but do not consider the plank in your own eye? 4 Or how can you say to your brother, 'Let me remove the speck from your eye'; and look, a plank is in your own eye? 5 Hypocrite! First remove the plank from your own eye, and then you will see clearly to remove the speck from your brother's eye. 6 Do not give what is holy to the dogs; nor cast your pearls before swine, lest they trample them under their feet, and turn and tear you in pieces.
Ok, so what does all this mean?
Matthew 7:1-6
7:1 Sometimes these words of our Lord are misconstrued by people to prohibit all forms of judgment. No matter what happens, they piously say, “Judge not, that you be not judged. But Jesus is not teaching that we are to be undiscerning Christians. He never intended that we abandon our critical faculty or discernment. The NT has many illustrations of legitimate judgment of the condition, conduct, or teaching of others. In addition, there are several areas in which the Christian is commanded to make a decision, to discriminate between good and bad or between good and best. Some of these include:
1. When disputes arise between believers, they should be settled in the church before members who can decide the matter (1 Cor. 6:18).
2. The local church is to judge serious sins of its members and take appropriate action (Matt. 18:17; 1 Cor. 5:9-13).
3. Believers are to judge the doctrinal teaching of teachers and preachers by the Word of God (Matt. 7:15-20; 1 Cor. 14:29; 1 Jn. 4:1).
4. Christians have to discern if others are believers in order to obey Pauls command in 2 Corinthians 6:14.
5. Those in the church must judge which men have the qualifications necessary for elders and deacons (1 Tim. 3:1-13).
6. We have to discern which people are unruly, faint hearted, weak, etc., and treat them according to the instructions in the Bible (e.g., 1 Thess. 5:14).
7:2 Jesus warned that unrighteous judgment would be repaid in kind: “For with what judgment you judge, you will be judged. This principle of reaping what we sow is built into all human life and affairs. Mark applies the principle to our appropriation of the Word (4:24) and Luke applies it to our liberality in giving (6:38).
7:35 Jesus exposed our tendency to see a small fault in someone else while ignoring the same fault in ourselves. He purposely exaggerated the situation (using a figure of speech known as hyperbole) to drive home the point. Someone with a plank in his eye often finds fault with the speck in the eye of another, not even noticing his own condition. It is hypocritical to suppose that we could help someone with a fault when we ourselves have a greater fault. We must remedy our own faults before criticizing them in others.
7:6 Verse 6 proves that Jesus did not intend to forbid every kind of judgment. He warned His disciples not to give holy things to dogs or to cast ... pearls before swine . Under the Mosaic Law dogs and swine were unclean animals and here the terms are used to depict wicked people. When we meet vicious people who treat divine truths with utter contempt and respond to our preaching of the claims of Christ with abuse and violence, we are not obligated to continue to share the gospel with them. To press the matter only brings increased condemnation to the offenders.
So to summarize;
What was Jesus calling for when He ordered His followers to “judge not? Did He want us to close our eyes to error and evil? Did He intend that managers forgo critical performance reviews of their employees? Or that news editors and art critics pull their punches? Or that juries refrain from judgment? Should we decline any assessment of others, since none of us is perfect?
No, those would all be mis applications of Jesus teaching. In the first place, He was not commanding blind acceptance, but grace toward others. Since all of us are sinners, we need to stop bothering with the failings of others and start attending to serious issues of our own. His words here extend His earlier expose of hypocrisy. Don't blame or put down others while excusing or exalting yourself, Jesus was saying.
Is there room, then, to assess others, especially when we know we are not perfect? Yes, but only in Jesus way: with empathy and fairness, and with a readiness to freely and fully forgive. When we are called upon to correct others, we should act like a good doctor whose purpose is to bring healing not like an enemy who attacks.
Needless to say, it requires spiritual perception to discern these people. Perhaps that is why the next verses take up the subject of prayer, by which we can ask for wisdom. I should also point out, that it is my belief that Jesus here is speaking to his church.. For the non believer, there will be the great white throne judgment seat. I will address that down below..
To read more click here.
http://www.pro4machineworks.com/Judging.html
U
unred typo
Guest
Jgredline wrote: Thanks for opinion. I appreciate it. It amazes me how the topic of homosexauality always brings out the worst in people. If you to have a problem with that sin, take it up with God. Don't shoot the mesenger.
You’re welcome.
I agree that homosexuality is one of those subjects that puts everyone on edge. I thought it best not to open that topic here in this ‘apostate churches’ thread. If you’ll notice, I didn’t target you for calling homosexuality a sin. In fact, I specifically said, “You can call the ‘act of homosexuality’ a sin, but if you condemn her as unsaved because she’s not preaching in harmony with the Bible, and you offend in your theology in the smallest point, you will be condemned by your own mouth.â€Â
Jgredline wrote: Did you read all of my posts in this thread?
Did you not just judge me?
No, I just skimmed them.
No, I just admonished you. Judging you would have been weighing you in the balance, and having found you lacking, declaring you guilty, and condemning your soul to some miserable fate like “missing the rapture†or even hell. I just warned you of what could happen if you judge another person, as I am told to do in scripture. If I don’t declare what your punishment should be according to your motives and actions, I am not judging you. As you say, we must be able to evaluate whether a brother is teaching wrong, or sinning or should be prayed for or admonished or given honor. Judgment and vengeance are God’s job, however. They involve meting out sentences and punishments. I simply warned you to consider your own actions.
This subject’s not something that I have found evangelical churches generally teach about. You have to read up about this on your own. It confused me for years and I think I have a handle on it now, but I continue to listen for a better understanding. It seems like something vital we ought to know. I like the way you put this: “When we are called upon to correct others, we should act like a good doctor whose purpose is to bring healing not like an enemy who attacks.†The difference between judging or not is our intent and if our purpose is to condemn or to lift up a brother or sister. Anytime we do sit on the judge’s chair, we should be ready to be judged as harshly or as mercifully as we judge others.
When you read Matthew 7:1-6 , notice that there are three different subjects here. First, is the act of judging and it’s consequences, verses 1-2, and then Jesus exposes the problem of hypocrisy in verses 3-5 and then you see in verse 6, he warns us to be discerning about how you handle some ungodly listeners. It's not just about judging others, but instructions for dealing with people.
You’re welcome.
I agree that homosexuality is one of those subjects that puts everyone on edge. I thought it best not to open that topic here in this ‘apostate churches’ thread. If you’ll notice, I didn’t target you for calling homosexuality a sin. In fact, I specifically said, “You can call the ‘act of homosexuality’ a sin, but if you condemn her as unsaved because she’s not preaching in harmony with the Bible, and you offend in your theology in the smallest point, you will be condemned by your own mouth.â€Â
Jgredline wrote: Did you read all of my posts in this thread?
Did you not just judge me?
No, I just skimmed them.
No, I just admonished you. Judging you would have been weighing you in the balance, and having found you lacking, declaring you guilty, and condemning your soul to some miserable fate like “missing the rapture†or even hell. I just warned you of what could happen if you judge another person, as I am told to do in scripture. If I don’t declare what your punishment should be according to your motives and actions, I am not judging you. As you say, we must be able to evaluate whether a brother is teaching wrong, or sinning or should be prayed for or admonished or given honor. Judgment and vengeance are God’s job, however. They involve meting out sentences and punishments. I simply warned you to consider your own actions.
This subject’s not something that I have found evangelical churches generally teach about. You have to read up about this on your own. It confused me for years and I think I have a handle on it now, but I continue to listen for a better understanding. It seems like something vital we ought to know. I like the way you put this: “When we are called upon to correct others, we should act like a good doctor whose purpose is to bring healing not like an enemy who attacks.†The difference between judging or not is our intent and if our purpose is to condemn or to lift up a brother or sister. Anytime we do sit on the judge’s chair, we should be ready to be judged as harshly or as mercifully as we judge others.
When you read Matthew 7:1-6 , notice that there are three different subjects here. First, is the act of judging and it’s consequences, verses 1-2, and then Jesus exposes the problem of hypocrisy in verses 3-5 and then you see in verse 6, he warns us to be discerning about how you handle some ungodly listeners. It's not just about judging others, but instructions for dealing with people.
jgredline
Member
unread
Again thank you for your response. I appreciate it and I appreciate you pointing somethings I need to work on. I will pick my words more closely next time.
I don't want to sidetrack this thread from its intended purpose, but I do feel I need to make myself clear on how I feel about homosexuality.. I have made this clear before a few months ago. I for the most part stay away from these debates because in my opinion people don't really understand what Paul is saying in Romans 1 for example.
26 For this reason God gave them up to vile passions. For even their women exchanged the natural use for what is against nature. 27 Likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust for one another, men with men committing what is shameful, and receiving in themselves the penalty of their error which was due.
28 And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a debased mind, to do those things which are not fitting; 29 being filled with all unrighteousness, sexual immorality, wickedness, covetousness, maliciousness; full of envy, murder, strife, deceit, evil-mindedness; they are whisperers, 30 backbiters, haters of God, violent, proud, boasters, inventors of evil things, disobedient to parents, 31 undiscerning, untrustworthy, unloving, unforgiving, unmerciful; 32 who, knowing the righteous judgment of God, that those who practice such things are deserving of death, not only do the same but also approve of those who practice them.
So if we look at this section of scripture, Paul doen not mean the single sin of Homosexauality here, but an assortment of sins and you search the scriptures you will see that this list is incomplete. Pauls was saying in this context that a sin is a sin and he is setting up his letter for chapters 2-8
and he will be pointing out how none of us seeks after God and how not one is riteous not one and how we are all subject to Gods wrath. How none of us deserve life but death. He then starts to point us to the cross and to Jesus.
Now if we look at 1 John 3:7-10
7 Little children, let no one deceive you. He who practices righteousness is righteous, just as He is righteous. 8 He who sins is of the devil, for the devil has sinned from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that He might destroy the works of the devil. 9 Whoever has been born of God does not sin, for His seed remains in him; and he cannot sin, because he has been born of God.
Here is what this John is saying and what it means
The Key word there is the word commit . That word in the Greek is ποιέω is a verb. It is a loaded word that our english language would require a paragraph to explian. Here are some of the meaning of the word and what the Apostle John is saying. He who lives in sin is not a child of God. In other words he who has a hibitual sin problem is not born again. He is not saying ''those who sin are not a child of God, but those who live in it. Those who try and hide their sins and do them in secret, those who plan their sins, example. A child of God would not plan a trip to the strip club after work. A child of God would not plan a robbery. This are all premeditated sins. Now if someone cuts me off in traffic and I swear under my tounge, I sinned, but it is still the carnal man in me. I commited a sin of the flesh, thus I am a sinner who is saved by grace.
These are some of the differant meanings of this word commit. Since it precedes the definate article ὁ we know it is an active verb.
ποιέω poieō; a prim. word; to make, do: accomplished(1), act(4), acted(3), acting(1), acts(2), appointed(3), away*(1), bear(5), bearing(1), bears(3), become(1), bore(1), bring(1), bring...to pass(1), bring about(2), bringing(1), brings forth(1), call(1), carried(1), carries(1), carry(1), cause(3), causes(2), causing(1), commit(2), commits(2), committed(4), composed(1), consider(1), created things(1), dealt(1), did(33), did...do(2), do(170), does(16), does...do(1), doing(38), done(43), establishing(1), execute(4), exercises(1), expose*(1), formed(1), formed a conspiracy(1), forms(1), gave(4), give(4), gives(1), giving(1), have(2), have kept(1), having(1), held(1), indulging(1), keep(3), keeps(1), kept(1), made(38), make(47), makes(7), making(9), observe(2), offer(1), offering(1), perform(4), performed(8), performing(7), performs(1), practice(5), practices(11), practicing(1), present(1), proceeding(1), produce(3), produced(1), produces(2), producing(1), provide(1), put(1), satisfy*
So to go back to what I was saying about this female Homosexaul Lesbian of the episcopal church. She is not mearly a member but the head which by the way is also against the high archy that was established by God in the scriptures. But anyway. If we judge here according to the scriptures, then in reality it is God who is judging her. The very bible she is preaching from also condems her. It is not I who does, for am mearly looking at what the bible says. So who do I have to be accountable to? God or man?
This is no differant than what Ted Haggart done and the church did what is right and fired him. The board of his church had to make a descision and they did based on what the bible which is the Holy Words of God.
Any person who is in leadership must be above reproach.
Does this mean that we never sin? NO, It means we are no longer bound to sin.
So how can anychild of God promote Gay marriage and thus promoting sin?
How can a child of God definatly live in sin?
This is what the Apostle paul and john are both saying.
Again thank you for your response. I appreciate it and I appreciate you pointing somethings I need to work on. I will pick my words more closely next time.
I don't want to sidetrack this thread from its intended purpose, but I do feel I need to make myself clear on how I feel about homosexuality.. I have made this clear before a few months ago. I for the most part stay away from these debates because in my opinion people don't really understand what Paul is saying in Romans 1 for example.
26 For this reason God gave them up to vile passions. For even their women exchanged the natural use for what is against nature. 27 Likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust for one another, men with men committing what is shameful, and receiving in themselves the penalty of their error which was due.
28 And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a debased mind, to do those things which are not fitting; 29 being filled with all unrighteousness, sexual immorality, wickedness, covetousness, maliciousness; full of envy, murder, strife, deceit, evil-mindedness; they are whisperers, 30 backbiters, haters of God, violent, proud, boasters, inventors of evil things, disobedient to parents, 31 undiscerning, untrustworthy, unloving, unforgiving, unmerciful; 32 who, knowing the righteous judgment of God, that those who practice such things are deserving of death, not only do the same but also approve of those who practice them.
So if we look at this section of scripture, Paul doen not mean the single sin of Homosexauality here, but an assortment of sins and you search the scriptures you will see that this list is incomplete. Pauls was saying in this context that a sin is a sin and he is setting up his letter for chapters 2-8
and he will be pointing out how none of us seeks after God and how not one is riteous not one and how we are all subject to Gods wrath. How none of us deserve life but death. He then starts to point us to the cross and to Jesus.
Now if we look at 1 John 3:7-10
7 Little children, let no one deceive you. He who practices righteousness is righteous, just as He is righteous. 8 He who sins is of the devil, for the devil has sinned from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that He might destroy the works of the devil. 9 Whoever has been born of God does not sin, for His seed remains in him; and he cannot sin, because he has been born of God.
Here is what this John is saying and what it means
The Key word there is the word commit . That word in the Greek is ποιέω is a verb. It is a loaded word that our english language would require a paragraph to explian. Here are some of the meaning of the word and what the Apostle John is saying. He who lives in sin is not a child of God. In other words he who has a hibitual sin problem is not born again. He is not saying ''those who sin are not a child of God, but those who live in it. Those who try and hide their sins and do them in secret, those who plan their sins, example. A child of God would not plan a trip to the strip club after work. A child of God would not plan a robbery. This are all premeditated sins. Now if someone cuts me off in traffic and I swear under my tounge, I sinned, but it is still the carnal man in me. I commited a sin of the flesh, thus I am a sinner who is saved by grace.
These are some of the differant meanings of this word commit. Since it precedes the definate article ὁ we know it is an active verb.
ποιέω poieō; a prim. word; to make, do: accomplished(1), act(4), acted(3), acting(1), acts(2), appointed(3), away*(1), bear(5), bearing(1), bears(3), become(1), bore(1), bring(1), bring...to pass(1), bring about(2), bringing(1), brings forth(1), call(1), carried(1), carries(1), carry(1), cause(3), causes(2), causing(1), commit(2), commits(2), committed(4), composed(1), consider(1), created things(1), dealt(1), did(33), did...do(2), do(170), does(16), does...do(1), doing(38), done(43), establishing(1), execute(4), exercises(1), expose*(1), formed(1), formed a conspiracy(1), forms(1), gave(4), give(4), gives(1), giving(1), have(2), have kept(1), having(1), held(1), indulging(1), keep(3), keeps(1), kept(1), made(38), make(47), makes(7), making(9), observe(2), offer(1), offering(1), perform(4), performed(8), performing(7), performs(1), practice(5), practices(11), practicing(1), present(1), proceeding(1), produce(3), produced(1), produces(2), producing(1), provide(1), put(1), satisfy*
So to go back to what I was saying about this female Homosexaul Lesbian of the episcopal church. She is not mearly a member but the head which by the way is also against the high archy that was established by God in the scriptures. But anyway. If we judge here according to the scriptures, then in reality it is God who is judging her. The very bible she is preaching from also condems her. It is not I who does, for am mearly looking at what the bible says. So who do I have to be accountable to? God or man?
This is no differant than what Ted Haggart done and the church did what is right and fired him. The board of his church had to make a descision and they did based on what the bible which is the Holy Words of God.
Any person who is in leadership must be above reproach.
Does this mean that we never sin? NO, It means we are no longer bound to sin.
So how can anychild of God promote Gay marriage and thus promoting sin?
How can a child of God definatly live in sin?
This is what the Apostle paul and john are both saying.
U
unred typo
Guest
Jgredline wrote: “Any person who is in leadership must be above reproach.
Does this mean that we never sin? NO, It means we are no longer bound to sin.
So how can anychild of God promote Gay marriage and thus promoting sin?
How can a child of God definatly live in sin?â€Â
I do agree with much of what you wrote. The church involved is responsible to remove her from leadership and preaching error, but to name her as not suitable to be ‘raptured’ is a judgment of her motives and intents. We can’t see her heart, and she may be somewhere in God’s process of conviction and repentance of this sin privately between herself and God and has not made it public yet. The spirit may be willing and the flesh weak. While we may find this sin particularly disgusting, the Bible says God finds 6-7 other things as abominations, not even naming homosexuality:
16These six things doth the LORD hate: yea, seven are an abomination unto him:
17A proud look, a lying tongue, and hands that shed innocent blood,
18An heart that devises wicked imaginations, feet that be swift in running to mischief,
19A false witness that speaks lies, and he that sows discord among brethren.
A gaggle of Christian women or men sitting around gossiping and falsely accusing other church members could display four of those in an afternoon Bible study or prayer meeting. The sad thing is that no one seems to mind these sins that destroy the fellowship (and lives) of other believers.
If we look carefully at this section, we can see that God is using the homosexuality as a punishment to those who worship idols. We think of it as a sin, which it is, but it is a sin against one’s own body foremost. It is also a shameful lust that Satan uses to humiliate and degrade the one enticed. It creates an unhealthy passion that leads to guilt and diseases. We need to encourage those caught in this sin to repent and be healed. Is there a doctor in the house of God?
26 For this reason (idolatry) God gave them up to vile passions. For even their women exchanged the natural use for what is against nature. 27 Likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust for one another, men with men committing what is shameful, and receiving in themselves the penalty of their error which was due.
28 And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a debased mind, to do those things which are not fitting;
Does this mean that we never sin? NO, It means we are no longer bound to sin.
So how can anychild of God promote Gay marriage and thus promoting sin?
How can a child of God definatly live in sin?â€Â
I do agree with much of what you wrote. The church involved is responsible to remove her from leadership and preaching error, but to name her as not suitable to be ‘raptured’ is a judgment of her motives and intents. We can’t see her heart, and she may be somewhere in God’s process of conviction and repentance of this sin privately between herself and God and has not made it public yet. The spirit may be willing and the flesh weak. While we may find this sin particularly disgusting, the Bible says God finds 6-7 other things as abominations, not even naming homosexuality:
16These six things doth the LORD hate: yea, seven are an abomination unto him:
17A proud look, a lying tongue, and hands that shed innocent blood,
18An heart that devises wicked imaginations, feet that be swift in running to mischief,
19A false witness that speaks lies, and he that sows discord among brethren.
A gaggle of Christian women or men sitting around gossiping and falsely accusing other church members could display four of those in an afternoon Bible study or prayer meeting. The sad thing is that no one seems to mind these sins that destroy the fellowship (and lives) of other believers.
If we look carefully at this section, we can see that God is using the homosexuality as a punishment to those who worship idols. We think of it as a sin, which it is, but it is a sin against one’s own body foremost. It is also a shameful lust that Satan uses to humiliate and degrade the one enticed. It creates an unhealthy passion that leads to guilt and diseases. We need to encourage those caught in this sin to repent and be healed. Is there a doctor in the house of God?
26 For this reason (idolatry) God gave them up to vile passions. For even their women exchanged the natural use for what is against nature. 27 Likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust for one another, men with men committing what is shameful, and receiving in themselves the penalty of their error which was due.
28 And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a debased mind, to do those things which are not fitting;
jgredline
Member
Unread
I still stand by what I have said. If this Bishop of the episcopal church was born again, she would be preaching repentance in harmony with the word of God. Instead she is clearly teaching another gospel.
1 TIM 3:1-6
3 This is a faithful saying: If a man desires the position of a bishop, he desires a good work. 2 A bishop then must be blameless, the husband of one wife(Not the husband of one husband or the wife of one wife, I will not even get into the fact that women should not be bishops to beging with), temperate, sober-minded, of good behavior, hospitable, able to teach (She is clearly not a teacher. If she were a teacher of the Gospel of Jesus Christ, she would not teach against the word of God, but for it... By saying that GAY marriage is good and doing it herself SHE IS teaching against the word of God); 3 not given to wine, not violent, not greedy for money, but gentle, not quarrelsome, not covetous; 4 one who rules his own house well, having his children in submission with all reverence(so how is a gay couple supposed to have kids? ) 5 (for if a man does not know how to rule his own house, how will he take care of the church of God?); 6 not a novice, lest being puffed up with pride he fall into the same condemnation as the devil. 7 Moreover he must have a good testimony among those who are outside, lest he fall into reproach and the snare of the devil. NKJV (This has clearly happend in this case. She fell into reproach and the snare of the devil.)
I will say this though, When one does sin against his own body and this person is a Christian, this person is sinning against God so this sin does not only affect oneself..
1 cor 3:16-17
16 Do you not know that you are the temple of God and that the Spirit of God dwells in you? 17 If anyone defiles the temple of God, God will destroy him. For the temple of God is holy, which temple you are. NKJV
I still stand by what I have said. If this Bishop of the episcopal church was born again, she would be preaching repentance in harmony with the word of God. Instead she is clearly teaching another gospel.
1 TIM 3:1-6
3 This is a faithful saying: If a man desires the position of a bishop, he desires a good work. 2 A bishop then must be blameless, the husband of one wife(Not the husband of one husband or the wife of one wife, I will not even get into the fact that women should not be bishops to beging with), temperate, sober-minded, of good behavior, hospitable, able to teach (She is clearly not a teacher. If she were a teacher of the Gospel of Jesus Christ, she would not teach against the word of God, but for it... By saying that GAY marriage is good and doing it herself SHE IS teaching against the word of God); 3 not given to wine, not violent, not greedy for money, but gentle, not quarrelsome, not covetous; 4 one who rules his own house well, having his children in submission with all reverence(so how is a gay couple supposed to have kids? ) 5 (for if a man does not know how to rule his own house, how will he take care of the church of God?); 6 not a novice, lest being puffed up with pride he fall into the same condemnation as the devil. 7 Moreover he must have a good testimony among those who are outside, lest he fall into reproach and the snare of the devil. NKJV (This has clearly happend in this case. She fell into reproach and the snare of the devil.)
I will say this though, When one does sin against his own body and this person is a Christian, this person is sinning against God so this sin does not only affect oneself..
1 cor 3:16-17
16 Do you not know that you are the temple of God and that the Spirit of God dwells in you? 17 If anyone defiles the temple of God, God will destroy him. For the temple of God is holy, which temple you are. NKJV
reply
Jg. I agree that this Bishop is not born again, and I don't know if this church believes in the new birth anyway. People in that church must open the doors and repent and accept Christ. God is not in a church like that. Homosexuality is an abomination to God with no spin on it.
May God bless, golfjack
Jg. I agree that this Bishop is not born again, and I don't know if this church believes in the new birth anyway. People in that church must open the doors and repent and accept Christ. God is not in a church like that. Homosexuality is an abomination to God with no spin on it.
May God bless, golfjack
U
unred typo
Guest
Jgredline wrote: I still stand by what I have said. If this Bishop of the episcopal church was born again, she would be preaching repentance in harmony with the word of God. Instead she is clearly teaching another gospel.
That’s why I said, “The church involved is responsible to remove her from leadership and preaching error†if she is and not that she would be still qualified to lead. I don’t know if the things reported about her are true, and it is not my job to correct her or her church. I’d rather torment you. :wink: If she should come to our forum preaching errors, I would probably consider it my duty to admonish her.
I’m not particularly fond of the gospel you preach either since it appears to short circuit the teachings of Christ, but then, I’ve tried to warn you. I believe that if you live according to what Jesus taught and unknowingly teach errors, you will suffer loss of rewards, but still be saved, so as by fire. If you teach errors for monetary gain or the esteem of men, you may even suffer punishment for the harm you caused to the body of Christ.
Jgredline wrote: I will say this though, When one does sin against his own body and this person is a Christian, this person is sinning against God so this sin does not only affect oneself..
That’s why I said, “We think of it as a sin, which it is, but it is a sin against one’s own body foremost.†and not, only. Of course there are others who are hurt, including family members, those who are enticed to join that lifestlye and the morals of society in general.
Jgredline quoted: 16 Do you not know that you are the temple of God and that the Spirit of God dwells in you? 17 If anyone defiles the temple of God, God will destroy him. For the temple of God is holy, which temple you are. NKJV
That’swhy I said, “it is a sin against one’s own body foremost.â€Â
That’s why I said, “The church involved is responsible to remove her from leadership and preaching error†if she is and not that she would be still qualified to lead. I don’t know if the things reported about her are true, and it is not my job to correct her or her church. I’d rather torment you. :wink: If she should come to our forum preaching errors, I would probably consider it my duty to admonish her.
I’m not particularly fond of the gospel you preach either since it appears to short circuit the teachings of Christ, but then, I’ve tried to warn you. I believe that if you live according to what Jesus taught and unknowingly teach errors, you will suffer loss of rewards, but still be saved, so as by fire. If you teach errors for monetary gain or the esteem of men, you may even suffer punishment for the harm you caused to the body of Christ.
Jgredline wrote: I will say this though, When one does sin against his own body and this person is a Christian, this person is sinning against God so this sin does not only affect oneself..
That’s why I said, “We think of it as a sin, which it is, but it is a sin against one’s own body foremost.†and not, only. Of course there are others who are hurt, including family members, those who are enticed to join that lifestlye and the morals of society in general.
Jgredline quoted: 16 Do you not know that you are the temple of God and that the Spirit of God dwells in you? 17 If anyone defiles the temple of God, God will destroy him. For the temple of God is holy, which temple you are. NKJV
That’swhy I said, “it is a sin against one’s own body foremost.â€Â