The Atonement: What did it REALLY Accomplish?

[Douglas Summers]

Too bad you dont have a scripture that says that !

Scripture tells us that Christ came unto the lost sheep of Israel first to set up again the Kingdom of the Heavens under the Davidic Covenant (Matt. 15:21-28) Not every single Israelite, but the elect of Israel at this time (the purpose was to call out the elect to establish a priestly order and overseers of that kingdom (a government). The Constitution of that Kingdom was pronounced and explained in (Matt. 4:23-25) and (Matthews Chapters 5, 6 and 7). After His rejection from the religious leaders of Israel (Matthew chapter 12), He walks out of the House of Israel (Matt. 13:1) and begins to teach the Gentile elect to share in the administration of the Kingdom of the Heavens. Matthew 13:2 is in type, the Lord who has ascended into Heaven and is teaching from his throne to the elect upon the earth. In every order of our calling and election by Christ, Israel is first and the Gentile.

The first calling out of the Church were the Jew, (Acts Chapters 1 thru 9) was to the Jew, it is not until Acts Chapter 10 that the Gentile is called out to be part of the body of Christ (Acts 15:14-15) The Church has a specific purpose in the Kingdom of God. it will be the Priest and kings that will rule with Christ (His Body). Then The Lord will establish and restore again, Israel, with the Son of David as in the Davidic Covenant. (Acts 15:16--18) (2 Sam. 7:4-19). The Body of Christ (Church) will be complete one day, for out of the two (Jew and Gentile) He is making one new man, it is called the (fullness of the Gentiles) (Rom. 11:25). When this Church (body of Christ), we will be called out and forever be with the Lord to rule and judge with Him.. It is only after that completion and calling out that the multitude of nations and Jew will be saved, more than anyone can count. (Rev. 7:9-11) BTW, the elders in verse 11 is the Church. So yes, at this time, God is calling out His Church, He is not saving the world at this time. Some call it limited atonement, but it is the plan and purpose of God. .

 

[Jim Parker]

Too bad you dont have a scripture that says that !

JOhn 3:16

 

[dirtfarmer]

dirtfarmer here

The thing that consigns a soul to the lake of fire is unbelief. The children of Israel that didn't believe God's report in the wilderness never made it to the promised land. We are told in scripture that they were not allowed to enter the promised land because of unbelief, not because of the sins that they committed. Only Joshua and Caleb believed God and they were allowed to enter, but the rest never entered because of unbelief.

Sin is the nature that we are born with and sins are the fruit of that nature. Sins only affect the believers fellowship with the Father. The believer is judged by what they did or did not do for the glory of God. The unbeliever is judged by the number of time times they rejected God's gospel message.

It is belief in the atonement that brings justification to a believer.

 

[beloved57]

JOhn 3:16

That scripture does not state that.

 

[beloved57]

Fulfilled in us the righteousness of the law !


Rom 8:3-4

3 For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:


4 That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

For all men who were blessed to have Christ as their Surety, when He lived and died in their stead, the righteousness of the law was fulfilled in them. This is by imputation, all of the moral requirements of righteousness due unto God by man, to be summed up here Matt 22:37-39


37 Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind.


38 This is the first and great commandment.


39 And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.

40 On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.

Paul wrote in Rom 13:8-10


8 Owe no man any thing, but to love one another: for he that loveth another hath fulfilled the law.


9 For this, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not kill, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness, Thou shalt not covet; and if there be any other commandment, it is briefly comprehended in this saying, namely, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.


10 Love worketh no ill to his neighbour: therefore love is the fulfilling of the law.

The Life and death of Christ has fulfilled this love required to the law.

Rom 5:19

19 For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.

Christ's obedience to the Law of God, both active and passive is imputed to all for whom He lived and died. So He being their surety savior is the end of the law for righteousness to eveyone that believeth. He as their surety is also the author of their believing, for they first believed in and by Him, His obedience to the Law for them was also by Faith, because without Faith its impossible to please God Heb 11:6 which Christ did please God as our surety here on earth , rendering complete obedience to Gods law ! Isa 42:21

21 The Lord is well pleased for his righteousness' sake; he will magnify the law, and make it honourable.

 

[FreeGrace]

It accomplished the full salvation of all for whom it was for.

This is only a slightly veiled Calvinistic view that Christ died only for the elect. But good luck trying to find ANY verse that says so.

In fact, this is what Scripture says about the scope of Christ's death in 2 Corinthians:
14 For the love of Christ controls us, having concluded this, that one died for all, therefore all died;
15 and He died for all, so that they who live might no longer live for themselves, but for Him who died and rose again on their behalf.

And in Hebrews 2:
But we do see Him who was made for a little while lower than the angels, namely, Jesus, because of the suffering of death crowned with glory and honor, so that by the grace of God He might taste death for everyone.

Clear as crystal: Jesus Christ died for everyone. Which proves that His death doesn't, as the OP claims, provide salvation.

Those who will try to argue that the context means that "all" refers ONLY to the elect. Well, reading the context of these verses does NOT lead to that conclusion. So the claim is false.

The Bible teaches that salvation is provided on the basis of faith in Jesus Christ, through grace.
Eph 2:8 - For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God;

And consider what these verses say and therefore mean:

For whom did Jesus come to save? The sick, the lost, the poor, the unrighteous, the ungodly, and sinners.

Matt 9:12
On hearing this, Jesus said, it is not the healthy who need a doctor, but the sick. Are just the elect “sick”?

Luke 19:10
For the Son of Man came to seek and to save what was lost. Are just the elect “lost”?

Luke 4:18
The Spirit of the Lord is upon Me, because He has anointed Me to preach good news to the poor. Are just the elect poor?

1 Peter 3:18
For Christ died for sins once FOR ALL, the righteous (Christ) for the unrighteous (humanity, all of them), to bring you to God. Are just the elect unrighteous?

Rom 5:6
You see, just at the right time, when we were still powerless, Christ died for the ungodly. Are just the elect ungodly?

Mark 2:17
On hearing this, Jesus said to them, it is not the healthy who need a doctor, but the sick. I have not come to call the righteous, but sinners. Are just the elect sinners?

Isa 61:1
The Spirit of the Lord God is upon me; because the Lord hath anointed me to preach good tidings unto the meek; he hath sent me to bind up the brokenhearted, to proclaim liberty to the captives, and the opening of the prison to them that are bound;

We know full well that the entire human race, not just the "elect" is described as sick, lost, poor, unrighteous, ungodly, and sinners. Every single one of us.

If Christ died for just the elect, then his theology leads to universalism, because of these verses. That means the non elect are neither sick, lost, poor, unrighteous, ungodly, or sinners. So they don’t need salvation. And Christ wouldn’t need to die for any of them.

Jesus said in His expiring moments these words Jn 19:30

When Jesus therefore had received the vinegar, he said, It is finished: and he bowed his head, and gave up the ghost.

And this verse has been misunderstood. His statement, equivalent to "paid in full" in the original Greek, means that His death on the cross actually and literally paid for all sins of humanity. Thus, the sin barrier between God and man has been destroyed.

This is referred to as reconciliation between God and man in 2 Cor 5:
18 Now all these things are from God, who reconciled us to Himself through Christ and gave us the ministry of reconciliation,
19 namely, that God was in Christ reconciling the world to Himself, not counting their trespasses against them, and He has committed to us the word of reconciliation.

By paying the debt for all sin, Jesus Christ purchased (agarazo) the gift of eternal life for everyone. All one can do to receive this gift is to believe in Jesus Christ for it. John 3:16

In other words, something was finished, accomplished, performed. What exactly was it ? It was the saving of His People from their sins as predicted here Matt 1:21

21 And she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name Jesus: for he shall save his people from their sins.

His death of atonement actually saved His People from their sins! None for whom He died can be lost !

In the actual context, "His people" refers to Jews. So, to take this verse literally, He only saves Jews. But we know better.

He actually removed the sin barrier between God and all humanity. So that God could show mercy to everyone.

Rom 11:32 - For God has shut up all in disobedience so that He may show mercy to all.

Not "to all the elect".
Not "to all believers".
It clearly says "to ALL".

 

[FreeGrace]

Do you have a scripture that says this ?

Interesting question, since your own views cannot be supported from Scripture.

Why insist others provide Scripture that says what they believe when you're not able to do it?

 

[FreeGrace]

Christ's death produces life, salvation as an accomplishment !

Do you have any Scripture that says this?

In fact, Scripture refutes this idea and teaches that it is Christ's LIFE, not death, that produces salvation.

Rom 5:10
For if while we were enemies we were reconciled to God through the death of His Son, much more, having been reconciled, we shall be saved by His life.

Note that the verse does NOT say:
"we shall be saved by His death". That is what the OP claims. Unbiblical.

 

[beloved57]

This is only a slightly veiled Calvinistic view that Christ died only for the elect. But good luck trying to find ANY verse that says so.

In fact, this is what Scripture says about the scope of Christ's death in 2 Corinthians:
14 For the love of Christ controls us, having concluded this, that one died for all, therefore all died;
15 and He died for all, so that they who live might no longer live for themselves, but for Him who died and rose again on their behalf.

And in Hebrews 2:
But we do see Him who was made for a little while lower than the angels, namely, Jesus, because of the suffering of death crowned with glory and honor, so that by the grace of God He might taste death for everyone.

Clear as crystal: Jesus Christ died for everyone. Which proves that His death doesn't, as the OP claims, provide salvation.

Those who will try to argue that the context means that "all" refers ONLY to the elect. Well, reading the context of these verses does NOT lead to that conclusion. So the claim is false.

The Bible teaches that salvation is provided on the basis of faith in Jesus Christ, through grace.
Eph 2:8 - For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God;

And consider what these verses say and therefore mean:

For whom did Jesus come to save? The sick, the lost, the poor, the unrighteous, the ungodly, and sinners.

Matt 9:12
On hearing this, Jesus said, it is not the healthy who need a doctor, but the sick. Are just the elect “sick”?

Luke 19:10
For the Son of Man came to seek and to save what was lost. Are just the elect “lost”?

Luke 4:18
The Spirit of the Lord is upon Me, because He has anointed Me to preach good news to the poor. Are just the elect poor?

1 Peter 3:18
For Christ died for sins once FOR ALL, the righteous (Christ) for the unrighteous (humanity, all of them), to bring you to God. Are just the elect unrighteous?

Rom 5:6
You see, just at the right time, when we were still powerless, Christ died for the ungodly. Are just the elect ungodly?

Mark 2:17
On hearing this, Jesus said to them, it is not the healthy who need a doctor, but the sick. I have not come to call the righteous, but sinners. Are just the elect sinners?

Isa 61:1
The Spirit of the Lord God is upon me; because the Lord hath anointed me to preach good tidings unto the meek; he hath sent me to bind up the brokenhearted, to proclaim liberty to the captives, and the opening of the prison to them that are bound;

We know full well that the entire human race, not just the "elect" is described as sick, lost, poor, unrighteous, ungodly, and sinners. Every single one of us.

If Christ died for just the elect, then his theology leads to universalism, because of these verses. That means the non elect are neither sick, lost, poor, unrighteous, ungodly, or sinners. So they don’t need salvation. And Christ wouldn’t need to die for any of them.


And this verse has been misunderstood. His statement, equivalent to "paid in full" in the original Greek, means that His death on the cross actually and literally paid for all sins of humanity. Thus, the sin barrier between God and man has been destroyed.

This is referred to as reconciliation between God and man in 2 Cor 5:
18 Now all these things are from God, who reconciled us to Himself through Christ and gave us the ministry of reconciliation,
19 namely, that God was in Christ reconciling the world to Himself, not counting their trespasses against them, and He has committed to us the word of reconciliation.

By paying the debt for all sin, Jesus Christ purchased (agarazo) the gift of eternal life for everyone. All one can do to receive this gift is to believe in Jesus Christ for it. John 3:16


In the actual context, "His people" refers to Jews. So, to take this verse literally, He only saves Jews. But we know better.

He actually removed the sin barrier between God and all humanity. So that God could show mercy to everyone.

Rom 11:32 - For God has shut up all in disobedience so that He may show mercy to all.

Not "to all the elect".
Not "to all believers".
It clearly says "to ALL".

I have no problem with all those scriptures you quoted, however you evade my points made with scripture. Also you are responsible for explaining all those scriptures you quoted since you posted them.

 

[FreeGrace]

I have no problem with all those scriptures you quoted

Actually, you do have a problem. A very big problem. Because they all have refuted your claim.

however you evade my points made with scripture.

There was no evasion of points. I provided Scripture that refuted your points.

Also you are responsible for explaining all those scriptures you quoted since you posted them.

I believe they speak for themselves. They clearly STATED that we are saved by grace through faith, and that our salvation is through His LIFE, not death, as you have claimed.

I tried to be as helpful as possible by putting the key words and thoughts from each verse in bolded RED. To make it clear.

Bottom line: there are NO verses that teach that anyone is saved by His death. None.

So, unless there is such a verse, there is no reason to respond to my post here. The only thing I'm interested in is any verse that says that salvation is through His death.

So if you can't provide such a verse, there is nothing to be gained from further dialogue.

Thank you.

 

[beloved57]

Fg,

Bottom line: there are NO verses that teach that anyone is saved by His death. None.

Yes there is. Those Christ died for are reconciled to God by His Death Rom 5:10

For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life.

 

[FreeGrace]

Fg,

Yes there is. Those Christ died for are reconciled to God by His Death Rom 5:10

For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life.

Please note the LAST 7 words in that verse:
WE SHALL BE SAVED BY HIS LIFE

That statement refutes your claim that any one is saved by His death.

SAVED BY HIS LIFE is the WAY we are saved.

iow, if He wasn't resurrected, we couldn't be saved.

So said Paul:
"and if Christ has not been raised, then our preaching is vain, your faith also is vain. "

 

[beloved57]

Please note the LAST 7 words in that verse:
WE SHALL BE SAVED BY HIS LIFE

That statement refutes your claim that any one is saved by His death.

SAVED BY HIS LIFE is the WAY we are saved.

iow, if He wasn't resurrected, we couldn't be saved.

So said Paul:
"and if Christ has not been raised, then our preaching is vain, your faith also is vain. "

Sure they will be saved by His Life, that's promising a future salvation , however they are still saved by reconciliation prior to that. Being reconciled to God is also salvation.

 

[dirtfarmer]

dirtfarmer here

If Christ had not resurrected, we would have had a martyr not a savior. Therefore there would have been no salvation. By his resurrection we have salvation.

 

[beloved57]

fg

In the actual context, "His people" refers to Jews.

Thats not what it says. Thats what you say ! Christ's People are His Sheep, His Church !

 

[beloved57]

dirtfarmer here

If Christ had not resurrected, we would have had a martyr not a savior. Therefore there would have been no salvation. By his resurrection we have salvation.

Does Rom 5:10 say that we were reconciled to God by Christ's Death or Resurrection ?

 

[FreeGrace]

Sure they will be saved by His Life, that's promising a future salvation , however they are still saved by reconciliation prior to that. Being reconciled to God is also salvation.

No one is saved by reconciliation, according to the Bible:

First, Paul tells us who Christ died for in 2 Cor 5:
14 For the love of Christ controls us, having concluded this, that one died for all, therefore all died;
15 and He died for all, so that they who live might no longer live for themselves, but for Him who died and rose again on their behalf.

Then, he tells us who was reconciled by Christ's death:
19 namely, that God was in Christ reconciling the world to Himself, not counting their trespasses against them, and He has committed to us the word of reconciliation.

There is no way to try to force "the world" to mean only the 'elect' or believers. Esp since Paul preceded v.19 with v.14 and 15 about Christ dying for all.

Again, you've not provided ANY verse that says that salvation is by the death of Christ. Yes, He had to die for everyone. But that doesn't save everyone.

We are saved by grace through faith. Eph 2:8

And don't forget Paul's words:
and if Christ has not been raised, then our preaching is vain, your faith also is vain. 1 Cor 15:14

The power of God wasn't in the death of Christ, but in the resurrection of Christ.

Paul said this:
For I am not ashamed of the gospel, for it is the power of God for salvation to everyone who believes, to the Jew first and also to the Greek. Rom 1:16

That's why, for Paul, this is what is of FIRST IMPORTANCE to him in 1 Cor 15:
3 For I delivered to you as of first importance what I also received, that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures,
4 and that He was buried, and that He was raised on the third day according to the Scriptures

 

[FreeGrace]

I said this:
"In the actual context, "His people" refers to Jews."

fg
Thats not what it says. Thats what you say !

That's EXACTLY !!!! what it says.

Christ's People are His Sheep, His Church !

Please prove that from the actual context. Keeping in mind that the church age had not begun yet.

And also keep in mind what Jesus told the Syro-Phoenician woman:
Mark 7:27 - And He was saying to her, “Let the children be satisfied first, for it is not good to take the children’s bread and throw it to the dogs.”

 

[FreeGrace]

This is ALL that I said:
"No one is saved by reconciliation, according to the Bible:

First, Paul tells us who Christ died for in 2 Cor 5:
14 For the love of Christ controls us, having concluded this, that one died for all, therefore all died;
15 and He died for all, so that they who live might no longer live for themselves, but for Him who died and rose again on their behalf.

Then, he tells us who was reconciled by Christ's death:
19 namely, that God was in Christ reconciling the world to Himself, not counting their trespasses against them, and He has committed to us the word of reconciliation.

There is no way to try to force "the world" to mean only the 'elect' or believers. Esp since Paul preceded v.19 with v.14 and 15 about Christ dying for all."

[edited, staff]

fg
The bible doesn't say that.

It sure does. It is clear that no one is saved by reconciliation.

But, since there is disagreement, please provide any verse that actually says that reconciliation is salvation, or that through reconciliation, one is saved.

But note that I've already proven from Scripture that the world has been reconciled through Christ. So if reconciliation means salvation, then your view is clearly that of a universalist.

 

[Jim Parker]

The thing that consigns a soul to the lake of fire is unbelief.

According to Mat 25:31-46, where Jesus describes how He will judge mankind, His judgment will be based on what people did or did not do. There is no mention by Jesus that belief is a consideration.

Jesus also said that people will be judged according to their works at John 5:28-29. (No mention of belief)

Paul said the same thing at Romans 6:2-10 (no mention of belief)

Sins only affect the believers fellowship with the Father.

There are two possible outcomes for man; (1) eternal life united to God in Christ and (2) eternal death separated from God.
Sin separates us from God.
God alone has life by nature. Anyone who has no fellowship with God is dead in his sins and will find himself in hell.
If anyone, believer or not, does not repent and confess his sins, he will remain separated from God and if he continues in his sins and dies in that state his estate will be eternal separation from God in hell.

To believe and to continued to sin without repentance is worse than not believing.

iakov the fool