The Atonement: What did it REALLY Accomplish?

[Fastfredy0]

Really, thats a serious accusation, if its not true, that's slander ! Please prove this accusation, that they are not written of me !

Hey, you should take the unfounded accusation as a compliment. Your stuff is of a quality that she thinks it has been published.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Re: Everyone is called.

Agreed.
Premise 1: The call consists of the gospel of Christ
Premise 2: Billions have died who never heard of Christ
Conclusion: Everyone is NOT called. It is a blatant lie.

We can see from this verse that many people never hearing about Christ does not mean God did not call them, and doesn't want to call them, but rather someone needs to carry the calling to them.

"How then can they call on the One in whom they have not believed? And how can they believe in the One of whom they have not heard? And how can they hear without someone to preach?" Romans 10:14

 

[Jethro Bodine]

To say those that have not heard of Christ can be saved is to preach another gospel.

Paul explains how God saves (or condemns) those who have no knowledge of Moses nor of Jesus.

14Indeed, when Gentiles, who do not have the law, do by nature what the law requires, they are a law to themselves, even though they do not have the law. 15So they show that the work of the law is written on their hearts, their consciences also bearing witness, and their thoughts either accusing or defending them 16on the day when God will judge men’s secrets through Christ Jesus,b as proclaimed by my gospel." Romans 2:14-16

 

[Fastfredy0]

We can see from this verse that many people never hearing about Christ does not mean God did not call them

I define the "call" as the salvific gospel. What is your definition so I know we are speaking about the same thing.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

I define the "call" as the salvific gospel. What is your definition so I know we are speaking about the same thing.

The 'call' is the testimony of the Holy Spirit in a person's heart about the Son. Many receive this call from God, but few retain it in faith and are saved. Most cast it away in a decision to not believe it. Even though God has made it clear to them it is true. They simply don't want it.

 

[Fastfredy0]

Paul explains how God saves (or condemns) those who have no knowledge of Moses nor of Jesus.

O.K. ... I have another 'fish on the line' .... so to speak. No one has answered this question.

Please give the scripture of Paul explanation of how people are saved without hearing of Christ? Is this gospel more or less efficient than faith in Christ? What happens to a man saved by this 'other gospel' that later hears the gospel of Christ and believes the initial gospel and not the gospel of Christ?

What is the gospel (the call) did a1282 North American Indian hear that caused him to be saved (go to heaven) by faith in that gospel??? (Warning: Paul taught that his gospel of Christ is the only gospel and people proposing another gospel should be 'cursed')
Aside: The fact that the Indian who died never hearing of Christ should be self-evident. There are billions like him.

 

[Fastfredy0]

Paul explains how God saves (or condemns) those who have no knowledge of Moses nor of Jesus.

O.K. ... I have another 'fish on the line' .... so to speak. No one has answered this question.

Please give the scripture of Paul explanation of how people are saved without hearing of Christ? Is this gospel more or less efficient than faith in Christ? What happens to a man saved by this 'other gospel' that later hears the gospel of Christ and believes the initial gospel and not the gospel of Christ? If someone is saved by your gospel
What is the gospel (the call) did a1282 North American Indian hear that caused him to be saved (go to heaven) by faith in that gospel??? (Warning: Paul taught that his gospel of Christ is the only gospel and people proposing another gospel should be 'cursed')
Aside: The fact that the Indian who died never hearing of Christ should be self-evident. There are billions like him.

 

[Fastfredy0]

The 'call' is the testimony of the Holy Spirit in a person's heart about the Son.

What is the content of this 'call'. Faith requires content (something to believe). What must the person that never heard of Christ believe to be saved? (or is something other than faith needed to saved a person that never heard of Christ?)

 

[Jethro Bodine]

What must the person that never heard of Christ believe to be saved?

That there is a judgment of all men, and what those things are that will condemn him.

 

[Fastfredy0]

That there is a judgment of all men, and what those things are that will condemn him.

Agreed ... you didn't answer my question. I will try one more time.

What must the person that never heard of Christ believe to be saved?

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Is this gospel more or less efficient than faith in Christ?

It is limited. Limited to within the scope of knowledge the person who never heard of Moses or Jesus has.

 

[Fastfredy0]

It is limited. Limited to within the scope of knowledge the person who never heard of Moses or Jesus has.

You say "IT is limited". You have yet to define 'IT'. Again, the question I posed:
What must the person that never heard of Christ believe to be saved?

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Agreed ... you didn't answer my question. I will try one more time.

What must the person that never heard of Christ believe to be saved?

That they can not live in the limited knowledge of sin that they have received by way of conscience and nature because there is a day of judgment coming for all men in which those sins will condemn them.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

You say "IT is limited". You have yet to define 'IT'.

The knowledge of God, and of sin, and the judgment to come.

 

[Fastfredy0]

The knowledge of God, and of sin, and the judgment to come.

Interesting, this is a new gospel to me ... do you have scripture to confirm your statement that one can be saved by "knowledge of God, and of sin, and the judgment to come". Can you quote any commentator that affirms this gospel?

Can one who don't believe in Christ after hearing of Christ be saved by "knowledge of God, and of sin, and the judgment to come" or does he have to believe in both? Do you can a scripture to confirm your belief?

Is the gospel of salvation by the "knowledge of God, and of sin, and the judgment to come" more effective than salvation by faith in Christ?

What is the content of "knowledge of God" that is needed to be saved?

 

[rogerg]

The Calvinist perspective seems to be that God alone, without any effort of obedience on our part, does everything for a person from start to finish, concerning salvation; concerning eternal life.

Yes, but not the Calvinist, the Bible. That's why Jesus has the title of Savior.

Furthermore, the Calvinist believes if man exercises his will, and employs the effort of (by the Spirit) obeying God’s instructions, then he is trying to be saved by a doctrine of works;

I can't speak for Calvinists, but for myself, I believe that if someone truly comes to, or exhibits from the heart,
those characterizes of a Christian, it is probably because they HAVE already become born-again. Becoming
born-again is the prerequisite to everything else - and God alone causes that.

The truth is, only those who obey Jesus Christ, will be saved.


And having been perfected, He became the author of eternal salvation to all who obey Him, Hebrews 5:9

Only those who have become born-again will truly obey -- true obeyance is a by-product of salvation and given to those chosen to it. In its ultimate form, obeying is manifested in a knowledge of, and trusting in Christ alone as Savior and in all ways implied by that. Trusting Christ as Savior, means to trust from the heart that He has already accomplished everything needed for salvation, to include those who are to be saved - hence nothing left for us to do, otherwise, we become savior not Christ. You do believe Christ is the Savior, don't you?
Regarding your statement above, consider that if (our) obeying was a prerequisite to salvation, it would mean that should we at any time not obey, salvation would be lost -- or does it mean that should we obey only once (whatever that would entail), then we never have to obey again? Which is it?
However, if obeying was our responsibility to accomplish, then we would be under law and not grace. Observe in the verse you supplied that salvation is ETERNAL so it can never be lost once given. If eternal, exactly what actions on our part, and with what frequency, do you think would be needed satisfy it and keep it eternal? Can you list those requirements for us?

As we see from the actual scripture text, the renewing of the mind involves obedience to the Spirit’s instruction through Paul which says... you present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable to God, which is your reasonable service. And do not be conformed to this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind, that you may prove what is that good and acceptable and perfect will of God.

[Tit 3:5 KJV] 5 Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;

As with all biblical interpretation, we must look at all pertinent verses to come to a correct understanding. Please see Titus 3:5 above which provides us move information about renewing.

The transformation from not conforming to conforming doesn't happen all at once. Its application is a progressive process throughout one's life - but the basis of which is by the knowledge of Christ - which also is given. For those born-again, they have been indwelt by the Holy Spirit who leads them into truth, and of which they cannot ignore, because He has renewed their minds. To not conform to this world, their minds first would first have had to be transformed. Otherwise, why would they even care about transformation, and how would they know what it meant?
Please see below:

[Tit 3:5 KJV] 5 Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;

You yourself must apply yourself to these instructions, which means you must obey what is being instructed by the Spirit;

• you present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable to God
• do not be conformed to this world,
• but be transformed by the renewing of your mind

Well, how can someone know exactly when they've have achieved it? What do those criteria exactly mean in terms of one's actions? They provide no guidance for translating into actual personal actions. And don't forget, that if one must do them to be saved, then they have become law, yet, no one can be saved by the works of law as the Bible makes abundantly clear.

The way you are going to have your mind renewed is by continuing in the doctrine; the teachings of Christ, and studying His words, and commandments, so that you apply them to your life as truth.

Again, how would someone know when that has been achieved? To be able to know that, tangible criteria must be available to define exactly what constitutes success, can be referenced, understood, and would have been readily available to everyone to reference who was ever born. Otherwise, our personal understanding/assessment would be our only guide and therefore, not an objective measurement that could be trusted. Considering the significance of the issues at hand - eternal salvation -a lack of a standard, or lack of detail/precision in the standard, would be unacceptable and fraught with danger. So then, what do you perceive the standard to be in actionable/measurable terms.

Peter says it this way —



But also for this very reason, giving all diligence, add to your faith virtue, to virtue knowledge, to knowledge self-control, to self-control perseverance, to perseverance godliness, to godliness brotherly kindness, and to brotherly kindness love. For if these things are yours and abound, you will be neither barren nor unfruitful in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ. For he who lacks these things is shortsighted, even to blindness, and has forgotten that he was cleansed from his old sins. 2 Peter 1:5-9

What I think you're missing is that when someone becomes born-again they aren't magically imbued with perfect spiritual knowledge. Rather, they become indwelt by the Holy Spirt, who then leads them into correct understanding of spiritual doctrine over time. Think you should look at 2 Pete 1:1 - 4: too. They help establish the foundation of verses 2 Peter 2:5 - 9:
[2Pe 1:1-4 KJV]
1 Simon Peter, a servant and an apostle of Jesus Christ, to them that have obtained like precious faith with us through the righteousness of God and our Saviour Jesus Christ:
2 Grace and peace be multiplied unto you through the knowledge of God, and of Jesus our Lord,
3 According as his divine power hath given unto us all things that [pertain] unto life and godliness, through the knowledge of him that hath called us to glory and virtue:
4 Whereby are given unto us exceeding great and precious promises: that by these ye might be partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust.

I think their meaning is obvious, but I can provide greater explanation of the above if you'd like.

 

[GodsGrace]

Really, thats a serious accusation, if its not true, that's slander ! Please prove this accusation, that they are not written of me !

Slander!
Are you going to sue me?
You just wrote:
"They are not written of me."

Let's just say that I know your speech pattern and your posts (in this thread) do NOT follow it.

Fastfredy0 also did not post sources when he was a new member. But he does so after being told the forum rules.

No harm in copying work of others,,,but the source must be noted.

Thanks.

 

[rogerg]

You must post the source of these posts.
They are not written by you.

This help any?

[Gal 4:5 KJV] 5 To redeem them that were under the law, that we might receive the adoption of sons.
[Eph 1:5 KJV] 5 Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,

 

[GodsGrace]

This help any?

[Gal 4:5 KJV] 5 To redeem them that were under the law, that we might receive the adoption of sons.
[Eph 1:5 KJV] 5 Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,

No. It does not help.
YOU are not doing the posts pertaining to the thread and continuing the O.P.
Brightfame is.

What is predestined?
What is the good will of God?

Those colored glasses must look good on you.

Later.

 

[GodsGrace]

Yes, but not the Calvinist, the Bible. That's why Jesus has the title of Savior.

I can't speak for Calvinists, but for myself, I believe that if someone truly comes to, or exhibits from the heart,
those characterizes of a Christian, it is probably because they HAVE already become born-again. Becoming
born-again is the prerequisite to everything else - and God alone causes that.



Only those who have become born-again will truly obey -- true obeyance is a by-product of salvation and given to those chosen to it. In its ultimate form, obeying is manifested in a knowledge of, and trusting in Christ alone as Savior and in all ways implied by that. Trusting Christ as Savior, means to trust from the heart that He has already accomplished everything needed for salvation, to include those who are to be saved - hence nothing left for us to do, otherwise, we become savior not Christ. You do believe Christ is the Savior, don't you?
Regarding your statement above, consider that if (our) obeying was a prerequisite to salvation, it would mean that should we at any time not obey, salvation would be lost -- or does it mean that should we obey only once (whatever that would entail), then we never have to obey again? Which is it?
However, if obeying was our responsibility to accomplish, then we would be under law and not grace. Observe in the verse you supplied that salvation is ETERNAL so it can never be lost once given. If eternal, exactly what actions on our part, and with what frequency, do you think would be needed satisfy it and keep it eternal? Can you list those requirements for us?




[Tit 3:5 KJV] 5 Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;

As with all biblical interpretation, we must look at all pertinent verses to come to a correct understanding. Please see Titus 3:5 above which provides us move information about renewing.

The transformation from not conforming to conforming doesn't happen all at once. Its application is a progressive process throughout one's life - but the basis of which is by the knowledge of Christ - which also is given. For those born-again, they have been indwelt by the Holy Spirit who leads them into truth, and of which they cannot ignore, because He has renewed their minds. To not conform to this world, their minds first would first have had to be transformed. Otherwise, why would they even care about transformation, and how would they know what it meant?
Please see below:

[Tit 3:5 KJV] 5 Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;


Well, how can someone know exactly when they've have achieved it? What do those criteria exactly mean in terms of one's actions? They provide no guidance for translating into actual personal actions. And don't forget, that if one must do them to be saved, then they have become law, yet, no one can be saved by the works of law as the Bible makes abundantly clear.



Again, how would someone know when that has been achieved? To be able to know that, tangible criteria must be available to define exactly what constitutes success, can be referenced, understood, and would have been readily available to everyone to reference who was ever born. Otherwise, our personal understanding/assessment would be our only guide and therefore, not an objective measurement that could be trusted. Considering the significance of the issues at hand - eternal salvation -a lack of a standard, or lack of detail/precision in the standard, would be unacceptable and fraught with danger. So then, what do you perceive the standard to be in actionable/measurable terms.


What I think you're missing is that when someone becomes born-again they aren't magically imbued with perfect spiritual knowledge. Rather, they become indwelt by the Holy Spirt, who then leads them into correct understanding of spiritual doctrine over time. Think you should look at 2 Pete 1:1 - 4: too. They help establish the foundation of verses 2 Peter 2:5 - 9:
[2Pe 1:1-4 KJV]
1 Simon Peter, a servant and an apostle of Jesus Christ, to them that have obtained like precious faith with us through the righteousness of God and our Saviour Jesus Christ:
2 Grace and peace be multiplied unto you through the knowledge of God, and of Jesus our Lord,
3 According as his divine power hath given unto us all things that [pertain] unto life and godliness, through the knowledge of him that hath called us to glory and virtue:
4 Whereby are given unto us exceeding great and precious promises: that by these ye might be partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust.

I think their meaning is obvious, but I can provide greater explanation of the above if you'd like.

Yes.
Please provide a greater explanation.
We here are in dire need of learning about Christianity as per your understanding of it.