The Atonement: What did it REALLY Accomplish?

[GodsGrace]

I'll just respond just to the last sentence you posted above: when someone becomes born-again they do not immediately embody nor receive a complete understanding or knowledge regarding things spiritual. Those who are born-again, become a partaker of the divine nature (in the earthly sense) as they are led into it over time by the Holy Spirit through the Bible.
Other than that, I'm going to make this easy, wondering. I believe everything you've posted is wrong. I believe this because you've based your faith and consequently your understanding upon the wrong foundation, which is works. And if by works it can't be by Christ.

[Rom 4:4 KJV]
4 Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt.

Where did I say salvation is by works?

This is what you understood from my post no. 291 to which you did not even reply?

I don't know ANY denomination that claims we are saved by works.
Not even Catholics believe we are saved by works. (which they are accused of).

Maybe you could answer to how you understand verses so differently than any other Christian denomination?

 

[rogerg]

Where did I say salvation is by works?

This is what you understood from my post no. 291 to which you did not even reply?

I don't know ANY denomination that claims we are saved by works.
Not even Catholics believe we are saved by works. (which they are accused of).

Maybe you could answer to how you understand verses so differently than any other Christian denomination?

Do you believe we have to do or to institute something within ourselves to become saved - an action of
some kind initiated by us? Or do you believe that God has chosen and completely does/has done everything necessary for their salvation, so they are only a recipient ?

 

[rogerg]

How else would you describe Jesus Christ being sent to die for our sins, except by His mercy?

I think the reply (following) from you is what initiated our dialogue:

"This passage refers to becoming saved, regenerated, born again through the Gospel message; the knowledge about Jesus Christ and what He did for us on the cross.
My point is: Becoming born again, regenerated, saved occurs by hearing and obeying the Gospel.
The renewing of the mind comes after this, and is accomplish by obeying the biblical Instructions."

I was trying to explain, and I think the verse demonstrates, that our "hearing and obeying" have nothing to
do with becoming saved or born-again. The full salvation process is solely the work of God with no input from us. Becoming saved and born-again happens first- as a gift - with any obeying we might do afterwards as a direct result.
The renewing comes from being indwelt by the Holy Spirit as part of the salvation process. We neither contribute to, nor initiate, any of this - we are solely the beneficiaries.

 

[GodsGrace]

Do you believe we have to do or to institute something within ourselves to become saved - an action of
some kind initiated by us? Or do you believe that God has chosen and completely does/has done everything necessary for their salvation, so they are only a recipient ?

God has not chosen who will be saved in the way that Calvinists mean this.
God does choose who will be saved, but based on HIS requirements for salvation.
BTW, my next thread will be on unconditional election so I'll keep this short.

However, God has done everything that is necessary for a person's salvation.
He knew Adam would sin because God foreknows everything.
He planned that Christ would die to buy mankind back from satan and give us, individually, the opportunity to be saved.

This is all the work of God. In Ephesians 2:8-9 the free gift is salvation....
salvation is a free gift that we receive from God.

But what are His requirements to receive it?
Belief in Him.
Faith in Him.

And, Roger, faith, as the bible teaches, is not a work.

Romans 4:5 NASB
But to the one who does not work, but believes in Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is credited as righteousness,,,

NLT
But people are counted as righteous, not because of their work, but because of their faith in God who forgives sinners.


Romans 11:6 NASB
But if it is by grace, it is no longer on the basis of works, otherwise grace is no longer grace.

NLT
And since it is through God’s kindness, then it is not by their good works. For in that case, God’s grace would not be what it really is—free and undeserved.


As you can see,,,works are the opposite of faith.
Works do not save.
Faith saves.

This is confirmed in Ephesians 2:8-9....By grace we are saved THROUGH FAITH.


And here is a verse that is very much misunderstood by calvinists that go to great lengths to change verses to suit their needs....

Romans 9:16 NASB
So then it does not depend on the man who wills or the man who runs, but on God who has mercy.


NLT
So it is God who decides to show mercy. We can neither choose it nor work for it.

All Romans 9:16 states is that we cannot work for mercy...NOT that it is not through OUR WILL that we cannot be saved.
You can just check this out in a source(s) that are not calvinist.
Do your own checking.
Get to know a loving God.

 

[rogerg]

But what are His requirements to receive it?
Belief in Him.
Faith in Him.

If we have to be the ones who satisfy those requirements (or any other requirements) to receive it, then it is NOT free and IS a work

And how do we initiate the above, or does God do it all?

Faith is given by Christ, but not through/because of ourselves

How is faith obtained?

[2Pe 1:1 KJV] 1 Simon Peter, a servant and an apostle of Jesus Christ, to them that have obtained like precious faith with us through the righteousness of God and our Saviour Jesus Christ:

"You can just check this out in a source(s) that are not calvinist.
Do your own checking."

The only source I read or place faith in is the Bible alone. I have never read anything written by Calvin

Looking forward to your thread - should be interesting

 

[JLB]

I was trying to explain, and I think the verse demonstrates, that our "hearing and obeying" have nothing to
do with becoming saved or born-again.

Ok good, let’s focus on that topic.


But when the kindness and the love of God our Savior toward man appeared, not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to His mercy He saved us, through the washing of regeneration and renewing of the Holy Spirit, whom He poured out on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Savior, that having been justified by His grace we should become heirs according to the hope of eternal life. Titus 3:4-7

• but according to His mercy He saved us, through the washing of regeneration and renewing of the Holy Spirit, whom He poured out on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Savior,

Plainly the passage says He saved us....


How was this salvation accomplished?

• through the washing of regeneration and renewing of the Holy Spirit, whom He poured out on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Savior,

If you believe we were saved before we heard the Gospel of Jesus Christ, then please explain how this type of salvation is accomplished... with scripture.



Here is how we are born again... of incorruptible seed


Since you have purified your souls in obeying the truth through the Spirit in sincere love of the brethren, love one another fervently with a pure heart, having been born again, not of corruptible seed but incorruptible, through the word of God which lives and abides forever,
1 Peter 1:22-23






JLB

 

[rogerg]

If you believe we were saved before we heard the Gospel of Jesus Christ, then please explain how this type of salvation is accomplished... with scripture.

The following is one of many verses. But basically it is saying that to save Paul, God using the law of the spirit of life in Christ Jesus, took him from being a prisoner under the jurisdiction of the law of sin and death, translating him to being a prisoner under the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus. Once under the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus, Paul was no longer under any spiritual law that could judge him and therefore, he was saved and had eternal life. Notice, Paul did NOTHING to make that happen - he was only its beneficiary.

[Rom 8:2 KJV]
2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.


Were we saved because of something (anything) we do, to include having first "heard" the Gospel, then
that would be a work of ourselves, and therefore, not of grace. By the way, the "hearing" associated to things spiritual is not physical hearing but spiritual hearing. That hearing is which comes from being given spiritual ears from God that can hear AFTER, and because of, becoming born-again. God wrote the Bible with/as parables, so until we can hear them, spiritually speaking, we're deaf.

[1Co 1:30 KJV]
30 But of him are ye in Christ Jesus, who of God is made unto us wisdom, and righteousness, and sanctification, and redemption:
[Mat 13:13-14 KJV]
13 Therefore speak I to them in parables: because they seeing see not; and hearing they hear not, neither do they understand.
14 And in them is fulfilled the prophecy of Esaias, which saith, By hearing ye shall hear, and shall not understand; and seeing ye shall see, and shall not perceive:

 

[GodsGrace]

If we have to be the ones who satisfy those requirements (or any other requirements) to receive it, then it is NOT free and IS a work

And how do we initiate the above, or does God do it all?

Faith is given by Christ, but not through/because of ourselves

How is faith obtained?

[2Pe 1:1 KJV] 1 Simon Peter, a servant and an apostle of Jesus Christ, to them that have obtained like precious faith with us through the righteousness of God and our Saviour Jesus Christ:

"You can just check this out in a source(s) that are not calvinist.
Do your own checking."

The only source I read or place faith in is the Bible alone. I have never read anything written by Calvin

Looking forward to your thread - should be interesting

We've been through 2 Peter 1:1
See post 291 ----

and have you seen
WHY CALVINISM IS NOT BIBLICAL - TOTAL DEPRAVITY
?

You can reply and I'll read it...but I will not be replying to those threads.
T.U.L.I.P. all unbiblical.

 

[GodsGrace]

If we have to be the ones who satisfy those requirements (or any other requirements) to receive it, then it is NOT free and IS a work

And how do we initiate the above, or does God do it all?

Faith is given by Christ, but not through/because of ourselves

Do you understand that the N.T. pits works against faith?
Do you understand that faith cannot be a work because the N.T. states it is not?
Why don't you believe the N.T.?

Faith is needed for salvation.
Faith and salvation are a free gift from God to those that desire it.

See if you can understand it this way:

If I work and do good deeds all day long but do not have faith...I will be lost.
Because it is faith that saves.

Work without faith is a dead work.... (1 John 5:7) unrighteousness is not being right with God....

Just like faith without works is a dead faith. (James 2)

Galatians 2:21
I do not nullify the grace of God, for if righteousness comes through the Law, then Christ died needlessly.”


Can you post a verse that states that faith is a work?

 

[rogerg]

Do you understand that the N.T. pits works against faith?
Do you understand that faith cannot be a work because the N.T. states it is not?
Why don't you believe the N.T.?

Faith is needed for salvation.
Faith and salvation are a free gift from God to those that desire it.

See if you can understand it this way:

If I work and do good deeds all day long but do not have faith...I will be lost.
Because it is faith that saves.

Work without faith is a dead work.... (1 John 5:7) unrighteousness is not being right with God....

Just like faith without works is a dead faith. (James 2)

Galatians 2:21
I do not nullify the grace of God, for if righteousness comes through the Law, then Christ died needlessly.”


Can you post a verse that states that faith is a work?

Once again, I think everything you posted is wrong for many reasons. So, it is impossible for me to go into them them all here.
Primarily, you change the meaning of verses you don't like because they don't agree with your perceptions so they must be wrong and must be discarded from further discussion because you say so.

 

[jaybo]

The following is one of many verses. But basically it is saying that to save Paul, God using the law of the spirit of life in Christ Jesus, took him from being a prisoner under the jurisdiction of the law of sin and death, translating him to being a prisoner under the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus. Once under the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus, Paul was no longer under any spiritual law that could judge him and therefore, he was saved and had eternal life. Notice, Paul did NOTHING to make that happen - he was only its beneficiary.

[Rom 8:2 KJV]
2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.


Were we saved because of something (anything) we do, to include having first "heard" the Gospel, then
that would be a work of ourselves, and therefore, not of grace. By the way, the "hearing" associated to things spiritual is not physical hearing but spiritual hearing. That hearing is which comes from being given spiritual ears from God that can hear AFTER, and because of, becoming born-again. God wrote the Bible with/as parables, so until we can hear them, spiritually speaking, we're deaf.

[1Co 1:30 KJV]
30 But of him are ye in Christ Jesus, who of God is made unto us wisdom, and righteousness, and sanctification, and redemption:
[Mat 13:13-14 KJV]
13 Therefore speak I to them in parables: because they seeing see not; and hearing they hear not, neither do they understand.
14 And in them is fulfilled the prophecy of Esaias, which saith, By hearing ye shall hear, and shall not understand; and seeing ye shall see, and shall not perceive:

You wrote "a prisoner under the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus". If that is actually how you think then you have missed the Gospel. Nobody is a prisoner under the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus! Just one verse shows how totally wrong you are... "For freedom Christ has set us free. Stand firm, then, and do not be subject again to the yoke of slavery." Galatians 5:1

If I were you I would take a break and read the epistles until you understand and accept this basic doctrine of freedom and salvation.

 

[GodsGrace]

Once again, I think everything you posted is wrong for many reasons. So, it is impossible for me to go into them them all here.
Primarily, you change the meaning of verses you don't like because they don't agree with your perceptions so they must be wrong and must be discarded from further discussion because you say so.

What a cop out!
It seems that you and Fastfredy0 really do have a difficult time responding to my posts.

You should prove that my post is wrong.
Just stating it does not make it so.

And since I quote the N.T. constantly...you obviously do not agree with the N.T.
or what Jesus taught, but prefer to believe what Calvin taught.

 

[GodsGrace]

Once again, I think everything you posted is wrong for many reasons. So, it is impossible for me to go into them them all here.
Primarily, you change the meaning of verses you don't like because they don't agree with your perceptions so they must be wrong and must be discarded from further discussion because you say so.

Again....
PLEASE show us, with scripture, how faith is a work.

Thanks.

 

[rogerg]

You wrote "a prisoner under the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus". If that is actually how you think then you have missed the Gospel. Nobody is a prisoner under the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus! Just one verse shows how totally wrong you are... "For freedom Christ has set us free. Stand firm, then, and do not be subject again to the yoke of slavery." Galatians 5:1

If I were you I would take a break and read the epistles until you understand and accept this basic doctrine of freedom and salvation.

I didn't use the term slavery, you did. If you didn't mean slavery, you should probably try to be more precise with your words or select different verses. They're laws. Laws have jurisdictions. If only two laws exist, and you're taken from one, then you're become the prisoner of, or under, the other one. The law is named the law of the Spirit of Life in Jesus Christ, slavery, if that's what you're talking about, comes with the law of sin and death. Paul was taken from the law of sin and death by the law of the spirit of life in Christ and placed under it. He is its prisoner because he can no longer be returned to the jurisdiction of law of sin and death. Since he can't go elsewhere, he is its prisoner.
Look at how Paul describes himself below. He declares himself a prisoner of Christ. Jesus Christ Himself is the manifestation/personification of law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus.

[Eph 3:1 KJV]
1 For this cause I Paul, the prisoner of Jesus Christ for you Gentiles,
[Phm 1:1, 9 KJV]
1 Paul, a prisoner of Jesus Christ, and Timothy [our] brother, unto Philemon our dearly beloved, and fellowlabourer, ...
9 Yet for love's sake I rather beseech [thee], being such an one as Paul the aged, and now also a prisoner of Jesus Christ.
[Eph 4:1 KJV]
1 I therefore, the prisoner of the Lord, beseech you that ye walk worthy of the vocation wherewith ye are called,
[2Ti 1:8 KJV]
8 Be not thou therefore ashamed of the testimony of our Lord, nor of me his prisoner: but be thou partaker of the afflictions of the gospel according to the power of God;

 

[rogerg]

Again....
PLEASE show us, with scripture, how faith is a work.

Not only is it a work, but solely and explicitly God's work to accomplish. If we think we have believed because of our decision, choice or volition, then we have also performed a work necessary for it. The acquiring of faith or belief is a work

[Jhn 6:29 KJV]
29 Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.

29 611 [e] 29 Apekrithē 29 Ἀπεκρίθη 29 Answered 29 V-AIP-3S​

3588 [e] ho ‹ὁ› - Art-NMS​

2424 [e] Iēsous Ἰησοῦς Jesus N-NMS​

2532 [e] kai καὶ and Conj​

2036 [e] eipen εἶπεν said V-AIA-3S​

846 [e] autois αὐτοῖς , to them PPro-DM3P​

3778 [e] Touto Τοῦτό This DPro-NNS​

1510 [e] estin ἐστιν is V-PIA-3S​

3588 [e] to τὸ the Art-NNS​

2041 [e] ergon ἔργον work my insertion: 2041​ that which one undertakes to do, enterprise, undertaking N-NNS​

3588 [e] tou τοῦ - Art-GMS​

2316 [e] Theou Θεοῦ , of God N-GMS​

2443 [e] hina ἵνα that Conj​

4100 [e] pisteuēte πιστεύητε you should believe V-PSA-2P (my insertion: 4100: believe: to think to be true, to be persuaded of, to credit, place confidence in​

1519 [e] eis εἰς in Prep​

3739 [e] hon ὃν Him whom RelPro-AMS​

649 [e] apesteilen ἀπέστειλεν has sent V-AIA-3S​

1565 [e] ekeinos ἐκεῖνος . He DPro-NMS​

 

[JLB]

The following is one of many verses. But basically it is saying that to save Paul, God using the law of the spirit of life in Christ Jesus, took him from being a prisoner under the jurisdiction of the law of sin and death, translating him to being a prisoner under the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus. Once under the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus, Paul was no longer under any spiritual law that could judge him and therefore, he was saved and had eternal life. Notice, Paul did NOTHING to make that happen - he was only its beneficiary.

[Rom 8:2 KJV]
2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.

Brother can you see that Jesus Christ is involved in Paul’s salvation, and that apart from Believing in your heart and confessing with your mouth the Lord Jesus, no one is saved. Confessing Jesus as Lord is how we repent. Repenting is how we obey the Gospel. Repent is how we turn away from Satan as lord, by turning to God in submission to Jesus Christ as Lord, in which we now follow (obey) Him as our Lord.


Paul was saved in the same way.




Paul recounts his encounter with Christ. Words of Christ in red —


I will deliver you from the Jewish people, as well as from the Gentiles, to whom I now send you, to open their eyes, in order to turn them from darkness to light, and from the power of Satan to God, that they may receive forgiveness of sins and an inheritance among those who are sanctified by faith in Me.’ “Therefore, King Agrippa, I was not disobedient to the heavenly vision, but declared first to those in Damascus and in Jerusalem, and throughout all the region of Judea, and then to the Gentiles, that they should repent, turn to God, and do works befitting repentance. Acts 26:17-20



Please show me where Paul was somehow “saved” before this encounter with Christ. Here is the condition of Paul’s life before he met Christ, on the road to Damascus.


Then Saul, still breathing threats and murder against the disciples of the Lord, went to the high priest and asked letters from him to the synagogues of Damascus, so that if he found any who were of the Way, whether men or women, he might bring them bound to Jerusalem.
As he journeyed he came near Damascus, and suddenly a light shone around him from heaven. Then he fell to the ground, and heard a voice saying to him, “Saul, Saul, why are you persecuting Me?”
And he said, “Who are You, Lord?”
Then the Lord said, “I am Jesus, whom you are persecuting. It is hard for you to kick against the goads.”
So he, trembling and astonished, said, “Lord, what do You want me to do?”
Then the Lord said to him, “Arise and go into the city, and you will be told what you must do.” Acts 9:1-6


Paul acknowledged Jesus as Lord and from that point obeyed Him and the instructions He gave him. Paul would later learn his doctrine directly from Christ.


Your doctrine that you are spreading through this forum is not from God! Turn away from this false doctrine and only teach the truth.


As we all can see, Paul was certainly not saved before he met Christ, and repented and began to follow Him; to obey Him as Lord.





JLB

 

[rogerg]

What a cop out!
It seems that you and @Fastfredy0 really do have a difficult time responding to my posts.

You should prove that my post is wrong.
Just stating it does not make it so.

And since I quote the N.T. constantly...you obviously do not agree with the N.T.
or what Jesus taught, but prefer to believe what Calvin taught.

Okay wondering, I going to be honest here. I don't mean to insult you because I usually enjoy dialoguing with you, but to me, sometimes the things you post are so convoluted and fundamentally incorrect that to try to untangle them requires more time and effort than I'm willing to expend (for many of your posts). Additionally, I though we had agreed to limit your questions/issues to one per iteration, which, for the most part, you haven't adhered to. Also, from my perspective, you seem to raise the same points repeatedly even after we've already discussed them yet you continue to raise them. Lastly, you seem to have placed yourself in the position of sole authority to determine which verses and which Bible version are acceptable and which aren't - but doesn't the person who controls the source of the facts also control the outcome? Again, not to be rude, but its hard for me to see how expending a lot of additional effort for things that we've already discussed would make sense for either of us

 

[rogerg]

Brother can you see that Jesus Christ is involved in Paul’s salvation, and that apart from Believing in your heart and confessing with your mouth the Lord Jesus, no one is saved. Confessing Jesus as Lord is how we repent. Repenting is how we obey the Gospel. Repent is how we turn away from Satan as lord, by turning to God in submission to Jesus Christ as Lord, in which we now follow (obey) Him as our Lord.

No one can truly confess Jesus and believe in their heart UNTIL they have become born-again through God's work, not ours. It is a by-product, not a cause.

 

[Fastfredy0]

29 Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent

Get get much explicit than that ...

 

[rogerg]

Get get much explicit than that ...

Thanks. One would think but oddly enough, wondering didn't accept that verse in prior posts.