brightfame52
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Desire to be a vessel of honor unto the Lord Jesus Christ?
Join For His Glory for a discussion on how
https://christianforums.net/threads/a-vessel-of-honor.110278/
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Taking the time to pray? Christ is the answer in times of need
https://christianforums.net/threads/psalm-70-1-save-me-o-god-lord-help-me-now.108509/
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Depending upon the Holy Spirit for all you do?
Read through the following study by Tenchi for more on this topic
https://christianforums.net/threads/without-the-holy-spirit-we-can-do-nothing.109419/
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How are famous preachers sometimes effected by sin?
Join Sola Scriptura for a discussion on the subject
https://christianforums.net/threads/anointed-preaching-teaching.109331/#post-1912042
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The Atonement: What did it REALLY Accomplish?
- Thread starter brightfame52
- Start date
Sorry I didn't reply to you on this sooner, JLB. I meant to do so at the time but got diverted and then forgot. Anyway here goes
Did I say the above? If I did I don't recall doing so. My understanding is that he was saved as a result of/during his encounter with Christ (for a lack of a better way to explain it). Externally, we can't always tell what's happening to someone spiritually right away - it's God's business as to when/if someone it given spiritual life, but one's actions after the fact demonstrates it.
I should have included that I believe the falling of the scales from Paul's eyes was symbolic of becoming born-again. Again, it happened AFTER his salvation:
[Act 9:18 KJV]
18 And immediately there fell from his eyes as it had been scales: and he received sight forthwith, and arose, and was baptized.
Huh? Which doctrine would that be? The one where I state that Christ is God, Savior, Lord and King, that one?
Whoa - I never said he was saved before then. Why do you think I did? Are you confusing me with someone else?
But, are you saying that after meeting Christ as he did, he wasn't saved by God?
Did Saul (Paul) put forth any action to instigate or receive it? Nope! Saul had been as opposed to Christianity as anyone could have been - he wanted no part of it and was dedicated to imprisoning and killing Christians. The thought of coming to faith and choosing Christ was as far from him as it could be.
Yet God sought Saul out and not the reverse - as He does with everyone who becomes saved, although not in the same manner as He did with Paul. God gave Saul no choice, no other option, nor did He ask Paul to first "accept" Him or to generate faith in Him. God alone caused all of that to happen.
You better be careful or you might have to ban yourself from this site. At minimum, I think you should issue yourself a warning
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I'm not sure what you think "but he took on him the seed of Abraham" means but I suggest you read it 1) in English and 2) in context.
" Therefore, since the children share in flesh and blood, he likewise shared in their humanity, so that through death he could destroy the one who holds the power of death (that is, the devil), and set free those who were held in slavery all their lives by their fear of death. For surely his concern is not for angels, but he is concerned for Abraham’s descendants. Therefore he had to be made like his brothers and sisters in every respect, so that he could become a merciful and faithful high priest in things relating to God, to make atonement for the sins of the people. For since he himself suffered when he was tempted, he is able to help those who are tempted." Hebrews 2:14-18
Not only have you misinterpreted it but I suggest that you read a Bible written in English, not "Englyshe". That way you will learn what the Bible actually says and be able to understand it clearly.
" Therefore, since the children share in flesh and blood, he likewise shared in their humanity, so that through death he could destroy the one who holds the power of death (that is, the devil), and set free those who were held in slavery all their lives by their fear of death. For surely his concern is not for angels, but he is concerned for Abraham’s descendants. Therefore he had to be made like his brothers and sisters in every respect, so that he could become a merciful and faithful high priest in things relating to God, to make atonement for the sins of the people. For since he himself suffered when he was tempted, he is able to help those who are tempted." Hebrews 2:14-18
Not only have you misinterpreted it but I suggest that you read a Bible written in English, not "Englyshe". That way you will learn what the Bible actually says and be able to understand it clearly.
Suggest you look at this verse too:
[Gal 29 KJV]
29 And if ye [be] Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.
So, said in the reverse if I might, if someone is not Christ's then spiritually speaking, they are not
Abraham's seed or heirs
For indeed He does not give aid to angels, but He does give aid to the seed of Abraham. Therefore, in all things He had to be made like His brethren, that He might be a merciful and faithful High Priest in things pertaining to God, to make propitiation for the sins of the people. For in that He Himself has suffered, being tempted, He is able to aid those who are tempted. Hebrews 2:16-18
Again this passage is referring to Jesus becoming flesh and being tempted and therefore giving aid to those who are tempted.
JLB
Don’t ever worry about being in a hurry to respond. Please wait till you are able and at peace.
Agreed.
This is faulty logic. There is no "said in reverse". It's like saying that because the sun isn't shining then it must be night. But it might be raining or snowing!
Everyone is Abraham's descendent, both Jews and Gentiles, since he is the father of faith.
Romans 4:16-17a, "For this reason it is by faith so that it may be by grace with the result that the promise may be certain to all the descendants—not only to those who are under the law, but also to those who have the faith of Abraham, who is the father of us all (as it is written, “I have made you the father of many nations”)."
I very well could be. If so I apologize, for sure.
There are several here who are teaching that we are first saved, then later we believe the Gospel.
If that is not you, I sincerely apologize. Please forgive me.
JLB
Alright.
I’m warning myself, if I teach false doctrine I will no longer have Christ.
That goes especially for me.
Whoever transgresses and does not abide in the doctrine of Christ does not have God. He who abides in the doctrine of Christ has both the Father and the Son. 2 John 9
JLB
Not according to the verse I posted. Those who are of Christ do encompass Jews (those of the law who God saves and transformed) and gentiles, but not everyone is of Christ so not everyone in the spiritual sense is a descendant of Abraham.
[Rom 9:6-8 KJV]
6 Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they [are] not all Israel, which are of Israel:
7 Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, [are they] all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called.
8 That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these [are] not the children of God: but
I dunno, I think the logic was pretty good
No need to apologize that is what I believe... but I thought you had said, that I had said, that he was saved BEFORE his encounter with Jesus. That I never said. Instead, what I said was, and believe that, he was saved during that encounter with Jesus. As I mentioned earlier, right up to his encounter Saul hated Christianity and everything Christianity implies so he couldn't have been saved prior to his encounter but it all changed afterwards, just as with anyone who becomes saved.
brightfame52
2024 Supporter
This passage is referring to the seed of Abraham, which contextually refers to Jews, “His brethren”. The author is writing to Hebrews.
Whats your point?
- For indeed He does not give aid to angels, but He does give aid to the seed of Abraham. Therefore, in all things He had to be made like His brethren, that He might be a merciful and faithful High Priest in things pertaining to God, to make propitiation for the sins of the people.
Inasmuch then as the children have partaken of flesh and blood, He Himself likewise shared in the same, that through death He might destroy him who had the power of death, that is, the devil, and release those who through fear of death were all their lifetime subject to bondage. For indeed He does not give aid to angels, but He does give aid to the seed of Abraham. Therefore, in all things He had to be made like His brethren, that He might be a merciful and faithful High Priest in things pertaining to God, to make propitiation for the sins of the people. For in that He Himself has suffered, being tempted, He is able to aid those who are tempted. Hebrews 2:14-18
JLB
brightfame52
2024 Supporter
More on the accomplishment of the Atonement !
In taking on the seed of Abraham, being made sin for us, what does this mean ? Does it mean that He actually became sin , as I understand some believe ? No, not at all; but what it does mean is that He became our sin offering, by bearing our sins Isa 53:11-12
11 He shall see of the travail of his soul, and shall be satisfied: by his knowledge shall my righteous servant justify many; for he shall bear their iniquities.
12 Therefore will I divide him a portion with the great, and he shall divide the spoil with the strong; because he hath poured out his soul unto death: and he was numbered with the transgressors; and he bare the sin of many, and made intercession for the transgressors.
The word bare in this verse is the hebrew word
nasa' and means:
to cause one to bear (iniquity)
To receive the punishment of sin upon oneself for others !
Heb 9:28
28 So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation.
1 Pet 2:24
24 Who his own self bare our [seed of Abraham] sins in his own body on the tree, that we, being dead to sins, should live unto righteousness: by whose stripes ye were healed.
1 Jn 3:5
5 And ye know that he was manifested to take away our [seed of Abraham] sins; and in him is no sin.
Like the scape goat, He bare away the sins of Israel, that is took them away cp Jn 1:29
29 The next day John seeth Jesus coming unto him, and saith, Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world.
Lets not forget in this connection that it is written that he took on the seed of Abraham Heb 2:1619
16 For verily he took not on him the nature of angels; but he took on him the seed of Abraham.
For it was with this seed only He stood Identified with, in lieu of the seed of the serpent !
It was for this seed he bare their sins in His body on the tree, for it was as the seed of Abraham that he was recognized by the law and justice of God, as being responsible for their sins. So He was made a sin offering for their sins, bearing their sins in His body on the Tree.
In taking on the seed of Abraham, being made sin for us, what does this mean ? Does it mean that He actually became sin , as I understand some believe ? No, not at all; but what it does mean is that He became our sin offering, by bearing our sins Isa 53:11-12
11 He shall see of the travail of his soul, and shall be satisfied: by his knowledge shall my righteous servant justify many; for he shall bear their iniquities.
12 Therefore will I divide him a portion with the great, and he shall divide the spoil with the strong; because he hath poured out his soul unto death: and he was numbered with the transgressors; and he bare the sin of many, and made intercession for the transgressors.
The word bare in this verse is the hebrew word
nasa' and means:
to cause one to bear (iniquity)
To receive the punishment of sin upon oneself for others !
Heb 9:28
28 So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation.
1 Pet 2:24
24 Who his own self bare our [seed of Abraham] sins in his own body on the tree, that we, being dead to sins, should live unto righteousness: by whose stripes ye were healed.
1 Jn 3:5
5 And ye know that he was manifested to take away our [seed of Abraham] sins; and in him is no sin.
Like the scape goat, He bare away the sins of Israel, that is took them away cp Jn 1:29
29 The next day John seeth Jesus coming unto him, and saith, Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world.
Lets not forget in this connection that it is written that he took on the seed of Abraham Heb 2:1619
16 For verily he took not on him the nature of angels; but he took on him the seed of Abraham.
For it was with this seed only He stood Identified with, in lieu of the seed of the serpent !
It was for this seed he bare their sins in His body on the tree, for it was as the seed of Abraham that he was recognized by the law and justice of God, as being responsible for their sins. So He was made a sin offering for their sins, bearing their sins in His body on the Tree.
If everyone added whatever they decided to scripture, they could make it say whatever they wanted.
My little children, these things I write to you, so that you may not sin. And if anyone sins, we have an Advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous. And He Himself is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the whole world. 1 John 2:1-2
- And He Himself is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the whole world.
Jesus Christ is the sacrifice for sin for the whole world, not just the elect.
Therefore I endure all things for the sake of the elect, that they also may obtain the salvation which is in Christ Jesus with eternal glory.
2 Timothy 2:10
JLB