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The Atonement: What did it REALLY Accomplish?

brightfame52 said:
More on the accomplishment of the Atonement !

In taking on the seed of Abraham, being made sin for us, what does this mean ? Does it mean that He actually became sin , as I understand some believe ? No, not at all; but what it does mean is that He became our sin offering, by bearing our sins Isa 53:11-12

11 He shall see of the travail of his soul, and shall be satisfied: by his knowledge shall my righteous servant justify many; for he shall bear their iniquities.

12 Therefore will I divide him a portion with the great, and he shall divide the spoil with the strong; because he hath poured out his soul unto death: and he was numbered with the transgressors; and he bare the sin of many, and made intercession for the transgressors.

The word bare in this verse is the hebrew word
nasa' and means:

to cause one to bear (iniquity)

To receive the punishment of sin upon oneself for others !

Heb 9:28

28 So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation.

1 Pet 2:24

24 Who his own self bare our [seed of Abraham] sins in his own body on the tree, that we, being dead to sins, should live unto righteousness: by whose stripes ye were healed.

1 Jn 3:5

5 And ye know that he was manifested to take away our [seed of Abraham] sins; and in him is no sin.

Like the scape goat, He bare away the sins of Israel, that is took them away cp Jn 1:29

29 The next day John seeth Jesus coming unto him, and saith, Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world.

Lets not forget in this connection that it is written that he took on the seed of Abraham Heb 2:1619

16 For verily he took not on him the nature of angels; but he took on him the seed of Abraham.

For it was with this seed only He stood Identified with, in lieu of the seed of the serpent !

It was for this seed he bare their sins in His body on the tree, for it was as the seed of Abraham that he was recognized by the law and justice of God, as being responsible for their sins. So He was made a sin offering for their sins, bearing their sins in His body on the Tree.
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Have you considered that Hebrews was written to the seed of Abraham? Who then is the "us"?
 
Butch5 said:
Have you considered that Hebrews was written to the seed of Abraham? Who then is the "us"?
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Do you want to discuss the post butch ? He is writing to believers, they who belong to Christ Ga; 3:29

29 And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.
 
brightfame52 said:
Do you want to discuss the post butch ? He is writing to believers, they who belong to Christ Ga; 3:29

29 And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.
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Yes, he is. They are Jewish believers. Who is the "us"?
 
Butch5 said:
Look at the context. That passage is referring to specific people.
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Thought we discussed this before but maybe it wasn't you. Yes, He is referring a specific group of people. If we look further down to verse 17:20,we can see the complete context of who the "Father hast given" Him. These alone comprise that group of people He is praying for. As He stated in verse 17:9, it isn't this world nor everyone in this world, but specifically those the Father gave to Him

[Jhn 17:2, 9,10,20 KJV]
2 As thou hast given him power over all flesh, that he should give eternal life to as many as thou hast given him.
9 I pray for them: I pray not for the world, but for them which thou hast given me; for they are thine.
10 And all mine are thine, and thine are mine; and I am glorified in them.

20 Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word;

So, based upon 17:20, we can see that those who do not believe in Him through the word (the Gospel), are of the world, not the object of His prayer, and therefore, not of those whom the Father gave Him -- they receive no spiritual blessing from God

I might add, that since Christ refused pray for this current world, this world can't be the one in view in John 3:16 that God so loved.
 
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Calvinism makes me feel like vomiting.

It's god is a cruel Puppet-Master - it makes people into automatons - bugs for the Puppet-Master to sqush at random.
 
brightfame52 said:
I already stated that. Do you want to discuss the post points or not. If you dont I will not pay you no mine !
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You seem to pick and choose which posts you address.


I addressed. Your post and you ignored it.



24 Who his own self bare our [seed of Abraham] sins in his own body on the tree, that we, being dead to sins, should live unto righteousness: by whose stripes ye were healed.
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If everyone added whatever they decided to scripture, they could make it say whatever they wanted.



My little children, these things I write to you, so that you may not sin. And if anyone sins, we have an Advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous. And He Himself is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the whole world. 1 John 2:1-2


  • And He Himself is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the whole world.



Jesus Christ is the sacrifice for sin for the whole world, not just the elect.



Therefore I endure all things for the sake of the elect, that they also may obtain the salvation which is in Christ Jesus with eternal glory.
2 Timothy 2:10


Notice the elect may also obtain salvation.







JLB
 
JLB said:
  • And He Himself is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the whole world.



Jesus Christ is the sacrifice for sin for the whole world, not just the elect.
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So you are saying that the sin of everyone who has ever lived has been forgiven?
 
rogerg said:
So you are saying that the sin of everyone who has ever lived has been forgiven?
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Even though your question was for JLB, I must respond...

Yes!!! The sin of everyone who has ever lived (or will live) has been forgiven!!! That is exactly why Jesus died on the cross.

When you truly understand this you truly understand the most basic truth of Christianity!
 
jaybo said:
Even though your question was for JLB, I must respond...

Yes!!! The sin of everyone who has ever lived (or will live) has been forgiven!!! That is exactly why Jesus died on the cross.

When you truly understand this you truly understand the most basic truth of Christianity!
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No problem, thanks for the reply.

Hmmm - okay, good to know, but then what do these verses mean (partial list)?
I think there may be better examples than these but they came to mind right away. I'll try to find a few better ones

[Mat 12:32 KJV] 32
And whosoever speaketh a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but whosoever speaketh against the Holy Ghost, it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this world, neither in the [world] to come.

[Rev 13:8 KJV]
8 And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.

[Rev 20:10-15 KJV]
10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet [are], and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever. ...
11 And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.
12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is [the book] of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.
13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.
14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.
 
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brightfame52 said:
Even before the elect are born into this world as sinners, they have already [by the blood of Christ] been reconciled to God, it will now be a matter of time for it to be manifested.

The atonement accomplished the complete salvation for all whom it was offered for, that is the death of christ. It provides them Faith, repentance, sanctification, redemption, and every needful spiritual blessing to convert them to God, and remain secured forever.
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Pretty much the straight Calvinist line. The "elect" go to heaven, everybody else incinerates eternally, and nobody has any choice in the matter.
 
Butch5 said:
He's writing to Jewish believers. Who is the "us"?
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Sorry to butt-in, Butch, but I'd like to throw in my two cents if I might.
Just to clarify, I don't believe that Paul's reply is oriented towards any specific group or ethnicity. At that particular moment, he is addressing only Christians, regardless of what/where they may have come from. When someone truly becomes born-again, all prior ethnic and national associations evaporate, with Christianity coming to the forefront and completely replacing all else.

[Col 3:10-11 KJV]
10 And have put on the new [man], which is renewed in knowledge after the image of him that created him:
11 Where there is neither Greek nor Jew, circumcision nor uncircumcision, Barbarian, Scythian, bond [nor] free: but Christ [is] all, and in all.
 
rogerg said:
Wait -- the verse says "this is the work of God" (KJV). I already posted the Greek. But, even looking at your translation, we can see that Jesus was in effect telling them that there was NOTHING they could do - it is all the work of God. From your version you posted: "the work of God is to believe". In that case, those who truly do believe, do so through the work of God.
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John 6:29 modern translation.....by me.

Children to their father after he finished dusting for the wife,,,the mom:
"What must we do to do the works of Mom?"

Father replying to the children:
"The works of mom is to help her".


If you don't get it Roger,,,we'll just agree to disagree.
God gives us salvation as a gift....
But the faith we have is not a work of God....
Faith is simply not a work...not by us and not by God.

Hebrews 11:6 NASB
And without faith it is impossible to please Him, for he who comes to God must believe that He is and that He is a rewarder of those who seek Him.

NLT
And it is impossible to please God without faith. Anyone who wants to come to him must believe that God exists and that he rewards those who sincerely seek him.

It is impossible to please God without faith.
So to please HIMSELF, He "works" to give us faith?
Not logical.

rogerg said:
I don't care what John Calvin, or anyone else for that matter, says regarding biblical interpretation, and I appreciate it if you'd stop implying that I do.
I am able to (and do) read it on my own
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I keep referring to Calvin because you have his ideas....
and his ideas are not drawn from the N.T. automatically upon reading it.
One must already have those ideas in their head in order to READ INTO scripture.

However, if you don't know calvin, I will stop referring to him.

rogerg said:
What does "faith without works is dead " mean? The two are part of each other
There isn't just one verse. If we were to believe the acquiring of faith originates from within ourselves, then we would have to perform the same works He did too.
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Faith is not a work.
Not by God and not by man.

I posted this:
But where are the verses that state that faith IS A WORK?
There are none.

If John 6:29 is the only verse you can post, it means this doctrine cannot be true.
No doctrine is based on one verse.

And you replied by saying the two are part of each other.
And if faith originated from ourselves we would have to perform the same works He did...
What does that even mean?

Galatians 2:16 NLT
16Yet we know that a person is made right with God by faith in Jesus Christ, not by obeying the law. And we have believed in Christ Jesus, so that we might be made right with God because of our faith in Christ, not because we have obeyed the law. For no one will ever be made right with God by obeying the law.”

WE HAVE BELIEVED IN CHRIST JESUS....so that we might be made right with God because of our faith.

We have believed...
Not, God has made us believe.

Nowhere in the N.T. will you find it stated that we get our faith from God.

Again...
Faith comes by hearing the word of God.
Romans 10:17
17So faith comes from hearing, that is, hearing the Good News about Christ.

rogerg said:
I don't understand your point. That Bible verse is not proving that Christ had faith, it is demonstrating the two (faith and works) are one. God ,through James, is illuminating a spiritual point: that Christ, and Christ alone, was the only person ever in mankind, to have perfect faith which His works were a part of - perfect to the degree that God the Father accepted and was pleased by it. If we want to boast that our faith is from ourselves, then we'd better have the necessary works to go along with it - which of course, would be completely impossible.
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We're not supposed to boast about our faith BECAUSE it is not a work.
Galatians 3:6-7
6In the same way, “Abraham believed God, and God counted him as righteous because of his faith.”
7The real children of Abraham, then, are those who put their faith in God.

Abraham believed God...Abraham did the believing.
For this God counted Abraham as righteous...BECAUSE of Abraham's faith.....
Those who PUT THEIR FAITH in God will be justified by God.

God does the justifying...DUE TO our faith.
Nowhere does it say that God gives us the faith.
rogerg said:
Did I ever say anything about us keeping the requirements of law? Far from it. I have only said (repeatedly) that Christ is the Savior and He has done everything necessary for salvation on behalf of the Elect. There is nothing left for anyone to do or be able contribute to it, including the supposed self-generation of one's faith.
Once again, I don't know where you get this from?.
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I've given you many verses that show that we must seek God and believe in Him.
You have not posted any verses that claim that God gives us faith IN ORDER TO justify us.
Because they simply do not exist because this is an incorrect and unbiblical doctrine.

Faith comes by hearing the word of God.
Faith comes by hearing the good news....the gospel.
 
Butch5 said:
The elect is Israel
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Sorry Butch, I haven't been following along really well.

However, you're right that elect could mean Israel ....
Elect just means chosen...
God did choose Israel as the nation to which to reveal Himself...
and, to the Hebrew people - which became the nation of Israel.

I couldn't find the verse being spoken of so my statement is general....
 
wondering said:
Sorry Butch, I haven't been following along really well.

However, you're right that elect could mean Israel ....
Elect just means chosen...
God did choose Israel as the nation to which to reveal Himself...
and, to the Hebrew people - which became the nation of Israel.

I couldn't find the verse being spoken of so my statement is general....
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Calvinists refer to the elect as something extra Biblical. I was pointing out that the elect is Isrsel.
 
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