The Atonement: What did it REALLY Accomplish?

[jaybo]

I am saying the price for the sin of the world has been paid, in which no one is excluded from repenting and being saved.





JLB

It's just astonishing to me that so many people don't realize this one simple fact!!

 

[rogerg]

If you don't get it Roger,,,we'll just agree to disagree.
Faith is simply not a work...not by us and not by God.

I get it, I just think your interpretation is tortured. If it is a work of God as the verse states, then could a work of man replace it? if someone trusts their actions, they'd better the works which go with it - the same works Christ achieved. Faith without works is dead, but a dead faith is NOT faith at all. Not only is it not faith, it is nothing. However, if Christ's faith is imputed as a gift to someone, then the works of faith which He already accomplished, is imputed as they exist together.

It is impossible to please God without faith.
So to please HIMSELF, He "works" to give us faith?
Not logical.

The ONLY faith that pleases God is Christ's faith.

[2Pe 1:17 KJV]
17 For he received from God the Father honour and glory, when there came such a voice to him from the excellent glory, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased.

EVERYTHING that pleases God the Father must be through Christ.
Where in the Bible do you find that God is pleased by anyone actions (besides of Christ)? Now, Christ's faith translates into a belief in Christ, and cause the recipient to work in accordance with biblical directives, but, they do not cause salvation, nor to become born-again.

I keep referring to Calvin because you have his ideas....
and his ideas are not drawn from the N.T. automatically upon reading it.
One must already have those ideas in their head in order to READ INTO scripture.

they were drawn from the Bible (OT and NT). They're easy to find, understandable and believable. Of course one first needs spiritual eyes that see, ears that hear and a mind that thinks. I may share his ideas because, to the degree I understand them (which is minimal), they were also derived from the Bible alone.
Why do would you think God informed us of the following if not to understand the Bible?

[2Ti 3:16-17 KJV]
16 All scripture [is] given by inspiration of God, and [is] profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:
17 That the man of God may be perfect, thoroughly furnished unto all good works.

We are informed that no souce outside of the Bible is needed for a correct spiritual understanding. Should one choose to seek beyond it, then they would be in violation of those and other verses. Do you think God is wrong?

But where are the verses that state that faith IS A WORK?
There are none.

If John 6:29 is the only verse you can post, it means this doctrine cannot be true.
No doctrine is based on one verse.

Where do you find this requirement? John 6:29 explains it so succinctly that nothing else is necessary, and, the whole Bible is based upon the doctrine that Christ has done it all for the recipient. So the whole Bible itself is testimony of it. Your NLT translation says the same thing.
Also, James 2:17 & 18 informs of it. The "man" referenced in the verse 2:18 IS Christ.

[2Pe 1:1 NLT]
1 This letter is from Simon Peter, a slave and apostle of Jesus Christ. I am writing to you who share the same precious faith we have. This faith was given to you because of the justice and fairness of Jesus Christ, our God and Savior.

Please notice the "given" in your translation.
[2Pe 1:1 KJV]
1 Simon Peter, a servant and an apostle of Jesus Christ, to them that have obtained like precious faith with us through the righteousness of God and our Saviour Jesus Christ:

[Jas 2:17-18 KJV]
17 Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.
18 Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.

And you replied by saying the two are part of each other.
And if faith originated from ourselves we would have to perform the same works He did...
What does that even mean?

It means that Christ alone was faithful, bringing to fruition God the Father's promise to Abraham. His promise that through the offering of Christ He would remove sin from those chosen to salvation, to bring in an everlasting spiritual kingdom. That kingdom will be populated by Abraham's spiritual offspring.
Had Christ not achieved it, then no one could/would be saved, there would be no new heaven, earth, world, holy city, and God's promise to Abraham would have been in vain. In doing so, Christ made God faithful to His promise, unequivocally demonstrating its success to the Elect by Christ on the cross. By Christ's offering, the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus was given life which freed those so chosen from law of sin and death. Once freed, the minds of its recipients also became freed -- they spiritually are renewed, and come to a true knowledge of Christ: who He is, what He accomplished for them, how they have been blessed by Him, and gain a desire that others have it too. Until then, minds will remain blinded, their faith focused on their own actions instead of Christ's.
[Col 3:10-11 KJV]
10 And have put on the new [man], which is renewed in knowledge after the image of him that created him:
11 Where there is neither Greek nor Jew, circumcision nor uncircumcision, Barbarian, Scythian, bond [nor] free: but Christ [is] all, and in all.

Galatians 2:16 NLT
16Yet we know that a person is made right with God by faith in Jesus Christ, not by obeying the law. And we have believed in Christ Jesus, so that we might be made right with God because of our faith in Christ, not because we have obeyed the law. For no one will ever be made right with God by obeying the law.”

WE HAVE BELIEVED IN CHRIST JESUS....so that we might be made right with God because of our faith.

We have believed...
Not, God has made us believe. even if I agreed with your version's interpretation, and I don't, what it says above doesn't demonstrate how faith in Christ comes about. It only says that it is by faith in Christ. It does not address how (however, the KJV and NLT in 2 Peter 1:1do and do so quite clearly too.)

please explain to me that if God doesn't cause it, what in someone who may even disbelieve in the Bible or Christ causes them to come to faith?

Nowhere in the N.T. will you find it stated that we get our faith from God.

See 2 Peter 1:1 above (NLT)

Again...
Faith comes by hearing the word of God.
Romans 10:17
17So faith comes from hearing, that is, hearing the Good News about Christ.

Do you think the "hearing" of Romans 10:17 is physical hearing? A lot of people hear the Gospel, but few come to faith in it. Please observe (again using NLT):

[Rom 10:18-19 NLT]
18 But I ask, have the people of Israel actually heard the message? Yes, they have: "The message has gone throughout the earth, and the words to all the world."
19 But I ask, did the people of Israel really understand? Yes, they did, for even in the time of Moses, God said, "I will rouse your jealousy through people who are not even a nation. I will provoke your anger through the foolish Gentiles."

They heard its message, yet they did not respond to it.
So the "hearing" is not a hearing in a physical sense, it is hearing of spiritual sense, which is given when born-again. But... if someone doesn't have ears to hear, then how can they hear to come to faith?

Abraham believed God...Abraham did the believing.
For this God counted Abraham as righteous...BECAUSE of Abraham's faith.....
Those who PUT THEIR FAITH in God will be justified by God.

God does the justifying...DUE TO our faith.
Nowhere does it say that God gives us the faith.

Righteousness can only come by/through Christ
[Rom 5:17 NLT] 1
7 For the sin of this one man, Adam, caused death to rule over many. But even greater is God's wonderful grace and his gift of righteousness, for all who receive it will live in triumph over sin and death through this one man, Jesus Christ.

I've given you many verses that show that we must seek God and believe in Him.
You have not posted any verses that claim that God gives us faith IN ORDER TO justify us.
Because they simply do not exist because this is an incorrect and unbiblical doctrine.

If it's dependent upon anything we must do then we are all in a lot of trouble because we would still be spiritually blind and deaf

 

[rogerg]

The elect is Israel

God divorced the nation of Israel due to its spiritual fornication, so Israel in that context cannot be the elect. By
OT law, once divorced, a remarriage is not legally permitted:

[Jer 3:8 KJV] 8 And I saw, when for all the causes whereby backsliding Israel committed adultery I had put her away, and given her a bill of divorce; yet her treacherous sister Judah feared not, but went and played the harlot also.

 

[rogerg]

I am saying the price for the sin of the world has been paid, in which no one is excluded from repenting and being saved.





JLB

If, as you say, it's been paid, then why would repenting of it to be saved be necessary? If the sin has really, completely been paid, then it no longer exists, right?

[Heb 10:2-3 KJV]
2 For then would they not have ceased to be offered? because that the worshippers once purged should have had no more conscience of sins.
3 But in those [sacrifices there is] a remembrance again [made] of sins every year.

 

[rogerg]

Father replying to the children:
"The works of mom is to help her".

This is a continuation (should have included it in my prior reply but ran out of room).
so in the example you've provided, it IS a work after all, and mom's work

 

[GodsGrace]

I get it, I just think your interpretation is tortured. If it is a work of God as the verse states, then could a work of man replace it? if someone trusts their actions, they'd better the works which go with it - the same works Christ achieved. Faith without works is dead, but a dead faith is NOT faith at all. Not only is it not faith, it is nothing. However, if Christ's faith is imputed as a gift to someone, then the works of faith which He already accomplished, is imputed as they exist together.

PLEASE provide a verse that states that it is Christ's faith that is imputed to us.
We cannot achieve the works Jesus achieved...we are not God's Son.
We are made righteous through the one act of Jesus.

I believe you might be getting righteousness conflated with faith.
It is God's righteousness that is imputed to us through the perfect life of Jesus.
2 Corinthians 5:21 NLT
21For God made Christ, who never sinned, to be the offering for our sin, so that we could be made right with God through Christ.

Romans 5:18-19 NLT
18Yes, Adam’s one sin brings condemnation for everyone, but Christ’s one act of righteousness brings a right relationship with God and new life for everyone. 19Because one person disobeyed God, many became sinners. But because one other person obeyed God, many will be made righteous.

The ONLY faith that pleases God is Christ's faith.

[2Pe 1:17 KJV]
17 For he received from God the Father honour and glory, when there came such a voice to him from the excellent glory, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased.

Where does 2 Peter 1:17 state that we get saved through the faith of Jesus?
It just states that God is please with His Son.

17when he received honor and glory from God the Father. The voice from the majestic glory of God said to him, “This is my dearly loved Son, who brings me great joy.”

EVERYTHING that pleases God the Father must be through Christ.
Where in the Bible do you find that God is pleased by anyone actions (besides of Christ)? Now, Christ's faith translates into a belief in Christ, and cause the recipient to work in accordance with biblical directives, but, they do not cause salvation, nor to become born-again.

God is VERY PLEASED by our actions.
The following verses prove this to be true....
and WE do these actions....AFTER we are saved...

Colossians 1:10
1 Thessalonians 2:4
1 Timothy 2:1-3
1 Timothy 5:4
Hebrews 13:16
1 John 3:22

they were drawn from the Bible (OT and NT). They're easy to find, understandable and believable. Of course one first needs spiritual eyes that see, ears that hear and a mind that thinks. I may share his ideas because, to the degree I understand them (which is minimal), they were also derived from the Bible alone.
Why do would you think God informed us of the following if not to understand the Bible?

[2Ti 3:16-17 KJV]
16 All scripture [is] given by inspiration of God, and [is] profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:
17 That the man of God may be perfect, thoroughly furnished unto all good works.

We are informed that no souce outside of the Bible is needed for a correct spiritual understanding. Should one choose to seek beyond it, then they would be in violation of those and other verses. Do you think God is wrong?

I agree with the above.
I only stated that we should go to the bible with an open mind.
I'm happy that you state that we need to do good works.
And God is never wrong...
but sometimes we are in how we misinterpret His Word.
Jesus IS His word...look at Jesus and you see God.

Where do you find this requirement? John 6:29 explains it so succinctly that nothing else is necessary, and, the whole Bible is based upon the doctrine that Christ has done it all for the recipient. So the whole Bible itself is testimony of it. Your NLT translation says the same thing.
Also, James 2:17 & 18 informs of it. The "man" referenced in the verse 2:18 IS Christ.

Again?
You repeat.
Please show how JESUS is THE MAN in James 2:18
18Now someone may argue, “Some people have faith; others have good deeds.” But I say, “How can you show me your faith if you don’t have good deeds? I will show you my faith by my good deeds.”

(And yes, I've started to quote the NLT because, apparently, some bibles are not very will understood in how they are translated. This happens to be a very good version in simple language. --- )

(the word MAN in James 2:18 in the KJV means a human being, not any one particular man)

 

[brightfame52]

More on the accomplishment of the Atonement !

Heb 2:16

16 For verily he took not on him the nature of angels; but he took on him the seed of Abraham.

For it was with this seed only He stood Identified with, in lieu of the seed of the serpent !

It was for this seed he bare their sins in His body on the tree, for it was as the seed of Abraham that he was recognized by the law and justice of God, as being responsible for their sins. So He was made a sin offering for their sins, bearing their sins in His body on the Tree.

Think with me for a moment, if a crime is committed by ones hand, is it not true that the life of the body of which that hand is a member will be liable to law and justice for the crime ? For that's why it is written that Jesus is the Saviour of the body per Eph 5:23

23 For the husband is the head of the wife, even as Christ is the head of the church: and he is the Saviour of the body.

In line with this Truth and subject, the High Priest confessed the sins of Israel [ the seed of Abraham] only over the head of the scape goat, and it was said their [ Israel's] sins were laid upon the head of the scapegoat and borne away per Lev 16:20-22


20 And when he hath made an end of reconciling the holy place, and the tabernacle of the congregation, and the altar, he shall bring the live goat:

21 And Aaron shall lay both his hands upon the head of the live goat, and confess over him all the iniquities of the children of Israel, and all their transgressions in all their sins, putting them upon the head of the goat, and shall send him away by the hand of a fit man into the wilderness:

22 And the goat shall bear upon him all their iniquities unto a land not inhabited: and he shall let go the goat in the wilderness.

It is in this way Jesus was made sin for the sins of us [ The seed of Abraham] by becoming their sin bearer; for He was also made a curse for His People Gal 3:1320

13 Christ hath redeemed us [seed of Abraham] from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us [seed of Abraham]: for it is written, Cursed is every one that hangeth on a tree:

 

[brightfame52]

The elect is Israel

Yes but not ethnic national israel. That was Pauls point with Rom 9:6

6 Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel:

Israel also is the Church, the Body of Christ comprised of jews and gentiles chosen from all the world in Christ before the foundation, and has nothing to do with ethnicity being the cause !

 

[JLB]

God divorced the nation of Israel due to its spiritual fornication, so Israel in that context cannot be the elect. By
OT law, once divorced, a remarriage is not legally permitted:

There was always a remnant that was faithful. The Israel of God is Christ; the Son who was called out of Egypt.

• Those who are His, make up the true Israel of God.

On e you understand this, you will see the Church having begun with Abraham, whom the Lord made covenant with, in which we who are of faith have been grafted into that covenant; grafted into that natural Olive tree, which is supported by a common root system; and that root is Christ.


Therefore know that only those who are of faith are sons of Abraham. And the Scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the Gentiles by faith, preached the gospel to Abraham beforehand, saying, “In you all the nations shall be blessed.” So then those who are of faith are blessed with believing Abraham. Galatians 3:7-9

• And the Scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the Gentiles by faith, preached the gospel to Abraham beforehand, saying, “In you all the nations shall be blessed.

I say then, has God cast away His people? Certainly not! For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin. God has not cast away His people whom He foreknew… Romans 11:1-2



Replacement Theology is not scriptural.




JLB

 

[brightfame52]

There was always a remnant that was faithful. The Israel of God is Christ; the Son who was called out of Egypt.

• Those who are His, make up the true Israel of God.

On e you understand this, you will see the Church having begun with Abraham, whom the Lord made covenant with, in which we who are of faith have been grafted into that covenant; grafted into that natural Olive tree, which is supported by a common root system; and that root is Christ.


Therefore know that only those who are of faith are sons of Abraham. And the Scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the Gentiles by faith, preached the gospel to Abraham beforehand, saying, “In you all the nations shall be blessed.” So then those who are of faith are blessed with believing Abraham. Galatians 3:7-9

• And the Scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the Gentiles by faith, preached the gospel to Abraham beforehand, saying, “In you all the nations shall be blessed.

I say then, has God cast away His people? Certainly not! For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin. God has not cast away His people whom He foreknew… Romans 11:1-2



Replacement Theology is not scriptural.




JLB

I actually agree with this summation !

 

[rogerg]

There was always a remnant that was faithful. The Israel of God is Christ; the Son who was called out of Egypt.

Seems to me that you are saying there is an eternal spiritual Israel . I would definitely agree with that. However, I believe that spiritual Israel, spiritual Jerusalem, spiritual Holy City exist and are comprised of those people whom God has chosen for salvation throughout time from all peoples of the earth. If we think about it, we can see two sets of each : the earthly, as opposed to the heavenly (spiritual)-- Jews (people), Israel, Jerusalem, Holy City, etc. However, and again, in the the heavenly, God makes no distinction regarding (their) earthly roots. All that matters is that He had chosen them individually. All are justified through Christ.

[Rev 7:9-10 KJV]
9 After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands;
10 And cried with a loud voice, saying, Salvation to our God which sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb.

 

[rogerg]

Replacement Theology is not scriptural.

Not exactly sure what "replacement theology" consists of but again, God divorced the nation of Israel, so as a nation, or because someone is of the earthly Israel, they have no standing, spiritually speaking. Keep in mind that where you see the name Israel identified you should evaluate which Israel is in view: the earthly or the spiritual.

 

[Butch5]

Yes but not ethnic national israel. That was Pauls point with Rom 9:6

6 Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel:

Israel also is the Church, the Body of Christ comprised of jews and gentiles chosen from all the world in Christ before the foundation, and has nothing to do with ethnicity being the cause !

Israel as a nation was elect. They still are. Paul's point in the passage you quoted is that not all of the Jews will be saved. However, Paul also says that the Gentiles are grafted into the olive tree. Ultimately, Gentiles who believe will be grafted in and Jews who don't believe will be removed from Israel. But it's still Israel.

 

[rogerg]

PLEASE provide a verse that states that it is Christ's faith that is imputed to us.
We cannot achieve the works Jesus achieved...we are not God's Son.
We are made righteous through the one act of Jesus.

our faith does not/cannot save.

[Rom 4:9 KJV] 9
[Cometh] this blessedness then upon the circumcision [only], or upon the uncircumcision also? for we say that faith was reckoned to Abraham for righteousness.

Christ's faith was reckoned and he was made righteous

[2Pe 1:1 KJV] 1 Simon Peter, a servant and an apostle of Jesus Christ, to them that have obtained like precious faith with us through the righteousness of God and our Saviour Jesus Christ:

[Phl 3:9 KJV] 9 And be found in him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith:

See also see Gal 2:16 below

It is God's righteousness that is imputed to us through the perfect life of Jesus.

Lost count as to how many times I posted this. But okay, here it is again.

[Gal 2:16 KJV]
16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.

[Eph 2:8 KJV]
8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: [it is] the gift of God:

Where does 2 Peter 1:17 state that we get saved through the faith of Jesus?
It just states that God is please with His Son.

2 Peter 1:17 doesn't tell us that. It tells us that God the Father was PLEASED with Jesus. This means that which had been assigned by God the Father to Jesus Christ had been accomplish. Christ had been FAITHFUL.
This verse too:
[Mat 17:5 KJV]
5 While he yet spake, behold, a bright cloud overshadowed them: and behold a voice out of the cloud, which said, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased; hear ye him.

God is VERY PLEASED by our actions.
The following verses prove this to be true....
and WE do these actions....AFTER we are saved...

My point was in the bring of salvation, not after it. Jesus pleased God, so obviously, if those saved have been indwelt by the Holy Spirit, they will exhibit the same traits to some extent as Jesus did. But they are from Jesus, not themselves.

Again?
You repeat.
Please show how JESUS is THE MAN in James 2:18
18Now someone may argue, “Some people have faith; others have good deeds.” But I say, “How can you show me your faith if you don’t have good deeds? I will show you my faith by my good deeds.”

We know that He is that man because were He not, the assessment the verse asks us to make would be a logical impossibility and God would not place us in that predicament. Of course, I use KJV because I think your version lacks precision relative to the original words. It seems to be oriented instead to communicating its perception of the lesson of the verse, not its words. Anyway without Christ being the man, the verse is useless to us.

[Jas 2:18 KJV] 18 Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.

if we look closely at the verse not knowing who the man is, for example, in order to understand it, we would have to ask what were his works and why were they significant? How many works did his faith lead him to? How would he know what, and how many works were performed by the person who says they have faith ? In other words, it provides us with no absolute standard to assess works or faith, so it would be an undefined variable being used to define an undefined variable. Those are just examples and there are many more similar questions that could also be raised.
However, were it Christ, the answers to all of those questions would immediately become obvious: Christ's works were observable, fully complete and perfectly accomplished as was His faithfulness. He provides us an absolute solid standard by which to assess what would have to be provided by ourselves should trust in our "faith" , that is, with it being a self-generated faith.
Hope that makes sense. Basically it is that Christ provides an absolute standard for assessment of works and faith that is quantifiable and that nothing else can provide.

(the word MAN in James 2:18 in the KJV means a human being, not any one particular man)

Can't be - please see the above

 

[JLB]

I actually agree with this summation !

 

[JLB]

Seems to me that you are saying there is an eternal spiritual Israel .

There is the Israel of God, then there is the natural nation of Israel.

These two may or may not be the same based on each individial person's choice to obey the Lord or not.

Just as we see in the life of Abraham.




JLB

 

[JLB]

Not exactly sure what "replacement theology" consists of but again, God divorced the nation of Israel, so as a nation, or because someone is of the earthly Israel, they have no standing, spiritually speaking. Keep in mind that where you see the name Israel identified you should evaluate which Israel is in view: the earthly or the spiritual.

Keep in mind the promise was given to Abraham and his Seed, not seeds. Christ is the Seed to whom the promise was made, and those who are in Him.


Again, Christ is the Israel of God; The Prince, God's Son.

 

[rogerg]

Keep in mind the promise was given to Abraham and his Seed, not seeds. Christ is the Seed to whom the promise was made, and those who are in Him.

[Heb 6:13 KJV]
13 For when God made promise to Abraham, because he could swear by no greater, he sware by himself,

 

[rogerg]

There is the Israel of God, then there is the natural nation of Israel.

These two may or may not be the same based on each individial person's choice to obey the Lord or not.

Just as we see in the life of Abraham.

Were that true, then could God have honestly made the promise He made to Abraham? And I don't think we can say that God made the promise because He knew in advance what would happen - that is, what people would do in the future. If He was dependent upon that, then logically speaking, all might have obeyed the Lord or none might have -- its result would have therefore been out of His hands.
For a promise, to truly be good and perfect a promise, I think the promiser has to have made a commitment, have the power to complete it, achieve what was promised, yet depend upon nothing but Himself for it.

 

[Walpole]

The election of Israel was precisely for the sake of them being an instrument of salvation for all mankind.


Isiah 42:6 ---> "I the Lord have called thee in righteousness, and will hold thine hand, and will keep thee, and give thee for a covenant of the people, for a light of the Gentiles."

Isiah 49:6 ---> "And he said, 'It is a light thing that thou shouldest be my servant to raise up the tribes of Jacob, and to restore the preserved of Israel: I will also give thee for a light to the Gentiles, that thou mayest be my salvation unto the end of the earth.'"

Isiah 60:3 ---> "And the Gentiles shall come to thy light, and kings to the brightness of thy rising."




Enter Jesus Christ. Now salvation is now offered to ALL through Jesus Christ through the gospel, which is the proclamation that Jesus was raised from the dead and is Israel's promised Messiah and the Lord of all.


Eph 3:4-6 ---> "...When you read this, you can perceive my insight into the mystery of Christ, which was not made known to the sons of men in other generations as it has now been revealed to his holy apostles and prophets by the Spirit. This mystery is that the Gentiles are fellow heirs, members of the same body, and partakers of the promise in Christ Jesus through the gospel."