Don't know who your post is for but If I understand you correctly, I think Isiah 42:1 - 7 has Jesus in view, not Israel. If I've misunderstood you, sorry.
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The Atonement: What did it REALLY Accomplish?
- Thread starter brightfame52
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Don't know who your post is for but If I understand you correctly, I think Isiah 42:1 - 7 has Jesus in view, not Israel. If I've misunderstood you, sorry.
GodsGrace
CF Ambassador
Roger,,,
Please read the analogy again.
It is the work of mother....
WHO DOES THE WORK?
The Father
The Children
THIS IS THE WORK OF GOD...THAT WE BELIEVE IN JESUS.
WE do the believing....
It is not necessary for God to believe in Jesus....
please think about this.
not that I agree with it ,but in the first example you said that the work was the mother's work, right? Anyway,
i don't think that analogy is correct, nor does it comport what my Bible says. I think it is a waste of our time
to keep pursuing this example
Can't see how you came to this conclusion? No one said, nor can I find in your example, anything that
would lead to the analogy of God believing in Jesus.
"it is not necessary for God to believe in Jesus....
please think about this."
""What must we do to do the works of Mom?" - Mom's work, right? Sorry guess I'm just not getting it
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GodsGrace
CF Ambassador
WE have the faith...
OUR faith.
WE do the believing...
GOD does NOT believe for us.
You stated that the work of God is to believe in Jesus
John 6:29
THIS IS THE WORK OF GOD,,,THAT YOU BELIEVE IN WHOM HE HAS SENT.
I'm asking you to post another verse that states that it is GOD'S work that makes us believe in Jesus.
You cannot because this concept is just not biblical.
The first below is from the NLT - your translation, not mine (again, not that I agree with it)
[2Pe 1:1 NLT] 1 This letter is from Simon Peter, a slave and apostle of Jesus Christ. I am writing to you who share the same precious faith we have. This faith was given to you because of the justice and fairness of Jesus Christ, our God and Savior
[Phl 3:9 KJV] 9 And be found in him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith:
[Rom 4:9 KJV] 9
[Cometh] this blessedness then upon the circumcision [only], or upon the uncircumcision also? for we say that faith was reckoned to Abraham for righteousness.
Christ's faith was reckoned and he was made righteous
[2Pe 1:1 KJV] 1 Simon Peter, a servant and an apostle of Jesus Christ, to them that have obtained like precious faith with us through the righteousness of God and our Saviour Jesus Christ:
[Phl 3:9 KJV] 9 And be found in him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith:
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GodsGrace
CF Ambassador
As I said in a previous post, you seem to be conflating faith with righteousness.
I even posted Romans 5:17, which your verses above copy/duplicate in concept...
17For the sin of this one man, Adam, caused death to rule over many. But even greater is God’s wonderful grace and his gift of righteousness, for all who receive it will live in triumph over sin and death through this one man, Jesus Christ.
We are imputed righteousness through faith in Christ.
We are not imputed with faith.
Your verse Philippians 3:9 declares the same.
9and become one with him. I no longer count on my own righteousness through obeying the law; rather, I become righteous through faith in Christ. For God’s way of making us right with himself depends on faith.
We become righteous through faith in Christ....
We are imputed with righteousness.
Romans 4:9 is the same....Abraham was made righteous through faith in Christ.
It is righteousness that is imputed to Abraham.
Your using the KJV....
First you have to "translate" the KJV and then you still have to understand what it's saying spiritually.
How about getting a bible you don't have to translate first?
I think it would be really helpful.
If you read the KJV, you really need to know Christian concepts ....
like, for instance, we are saved by OUR faith...NOT by Jesus' faith.
Jesus doesn't need faith.
He's God.
God doesn't make us believe in Jesus as if it were God's work to do so....
We believe in Jesus of our own free will based on what we have heard of Him or read about Him.
Yeah, using different Bible versions as we do, it will be difficult to find areas of agreement. As I mentioned earlier
yours seems oriented towards the communicating of the "message" based upon the translator's perspective which I think they have taken liberties with -- the words seem to get lost. The KJV, while not always perfect, is more oriented to the words themselves, which the message is built upon. So at this point I think we are chasing our tails. However, I suggest you look again at 2 Peter 1:1 in the NLT. It is telling us that faith is "given to you". Their faith was GIVEN to them. What faith? Where did it originate? Answer: from Christ - there is no other person or place from where it could have come.
Don't think that I am. Righteousness comes by Christ's faith, not ours. When someone is assessed as "righteous" it can only be because Christ's faith was given to them - faith and righteousness are inseparable. Remember, we are not saved by anything we do, so we can't be saved by our faith - whatever you think our faith is.
[Rom 3:22 KJV] 22 Even the righteousness of God [which is] by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference:
Gal 2:16 explains:
[Gal 2:16 KJV] 16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.
We believe in Christ because we have been given the faith of Christ. A true faith in Christ is an indication of having received the faith of Christ.
It is impossible for us to have true faith in Christ of ourselves. We cannot be saved by anything we may do or not do. Salvation is a gift. By definition, a gift is given, not earned or deserved. If given on the basis of earning or deserving, then it wasn't a gift
Please read yours below carefully
Yours: [Rom 6:23 NLT] 23 For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life through Christ Jesus our Lord.
"free gift": nothing we do can earn it - it's free, to include by our supposed faith - eternal life is only given. the verse says nothing about our faith as a prerequisite to it - it is solely "through Christ Jesus".
Wrong. Our free will is for sin. Spiritually speaking, we have no free will. Satan's trick is in getting us to think we do
Before becoming saved we were blinded by the god of this world
Yours: [2Co 4:4 NLT] - again, please read carefully
4 Satan, who is the god of this world, has blinded the minds of those who don't believe. They are unable to see the glorious light of the Good News. They don't understand this message about the glory of Christ, who is the exact likeness of God.
Before becoming born again, we were all part of those with blinded minds (above), weren't we? So, being blind, how could it be that we have true faith of ourselves, within ourselves? What caused that change from blindness and unbelief to sight and belief? Answer: only God alone could have renewed our minds through His faith, but it couldn't be not of ourselves. Think about it
Yours: [Eph 1:18 NLT]
18 I pray that your hearts will be flooded with light so that you can understand the confident hope he has given to those he called--his holy people who are his rich and glorious inheritance.
Until "flooded with light" there can be no understanding. How are we "flooded with light? We become born-again,
When you have a chance, read Saul's/Paul's conversion in Acts from non-believer to apostle. I think God uses it as a visible demonstration of the salvation process. First, on the road to Damascus, Saul, with no desire of his own for it, is apprehended (so to speak) by Christ - Christ chose him, he didn't choose Christ. Saul never said, "gee let me think about Christ, come to faith in Him and be saved". That was the furthest thing from his mind as his intentions at that moment were to imprison and kill Christians - he understood the doctrine of Christianity very well yet hated it. Nevertheless, God chose him. It is the same way with everyone who becomes saved, though not in so dramatic a fashion. Then, as an illustration of becoming born-again later on, the scales fell from his eyes, demonstrating that he was given eyes that were able to see spiritually. None of this was of Saul's/Paul's doing or desire. It is the same way with people who become born-again -- the scales are removed from their eyes - they are given faith, and they can start seeing and understanding spiritual truth and growing in their faith, but not until then. As you know, from that, Paul went on to become the most prolific writer in the New Testament
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Episcopius
Member
Oh, brother. One of the "there is no free will" proponents.
You say that OF YOUR OWN FREE WILL whether you know it or not.
Didn't say that of my own free will I didn't think it up. I believe I quoted the Bible, didn't I ? If you disagree with it, you're disagreeing with the Bible
Walpole
Member
Bingo!
You didn’t quote the Bible, sir.
Here is your statement that he quoted —
This is your own theory.
Where in the Bible does it say we have no freewill; no ability to choose good or evil, right or wrong?
And if it seems evil to you to serve the LORD, choose for yourselves this day whom you will serve, whether the gods which your fathers served that were on the other side of the River, or the gods of the Amorites, in whose land you dwell. But as for me and my house, we will serve the LORD.” Joshua 24:15
Adam and Eve chose to eat of the tree rather than choosing to obey God.
Each person must choose to believe the Gospel or not in order to be saved.
For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life.
John 3:16
JLB
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Walpole
Member
Philemon 1:14 —> "But I didn't want to do anything without your consent, so that your good deed might not be out of obligation, but of your own free will."
Ironically, you arguing against having free will is proof you don’t even believe your own argument.
If we don’t have free will, how can you fault those of us who believe we do possess it if we have no say whether we are able to believe it or not?
If you truly believed we don’t have free will, you would not be trying to argue with us, but instead taking it up with God to simply stuff his hand up our shirts, reprogram us, and hence for Him to reprogram our minds and change our belief.
The fact that you are here arguing to try and persuade us means you don’t really even believe your own position.
which one are you talking about where I didn't quote the Bible?
This post?
4 Satan, who is the god of this world, has blinded the minds of those who don't believe. They are unable to see the glorious light of the Good News. They don't understand this message about the glory of Christ, who is the exact likeness of God.
See above, and it depends on what you call good and evil - did I use the words good and evil?. What I said was regarding faith in Christ. Based upon the above, it doesn't seem like unsaved man can choose. Did you actually read my whole post to wondering?
Please include the complete post so I can see what you're referring to
Where did I say evil?
See the above Bible quote
I don't know what you're talking about - that verse has nothing to do with salvation. It's talking about Paul using Onesimus to assist him. If it is speaking about salvation, explain it to me.
This again makes absolutely no sense - It sounds like gobbledygook to me
Who did I fault? Repost my reply so I can see what you're talking about
wondering and I were having a discussion about biblical doctrine. I pointed out from the Bible, the doctrine
that shows we're blind until born-again. I wasn't arguing with anyone. If anyone is at fault it is Satan, not God, who put mankind into the dilemma it's in. We should never hesitate to discuss the Bible openly and candidly. If you're saying parts of it should be avoided or are taboo, you're completely wrong.
Here again, your statement makes no sense. I wasn't arguing with anyone. To show what Christ accomplished, we
have to show the complete biblical picture. And I definitely do believe and am positive about my position,
Everyone who is not born-again is blind spiritually speaking. What do you think the below verses mean? explain them to me.
[Jhn 12:40 KJV]
40 He hath blinded their eyes, and hardened their heart; that they should not see with [their] eyes, nor understand with [their] heart, and be converted, and I should heal them.
[2Co 4:4 KJV]
4 In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.
brightfame52
2024 Supporter
Also made a curse !
It is in this way Jesus was made sin for the sins of us [ The seed of Abraham] by becoming their sin bearer; for He was also made a curse for His People Gal 3:13
13 Christ hath redeemed us [seed of Abraham] from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us [seed of Abraham]: for it is written, Cursed is every one that hangeth on a tree:
The first we read of any curse is Gen 3:17
17And unto Adam he said, Because thou hast hearkened unto the voice of thy wife, and hast eaten of the tree, of which I commanded thee, saying, Thou shalt not eat of it: cursed is the ground for thy sake; in sorrow shalt thou eat of it all the days of thy life;
and this curse is the result of Adam's Sin who BTW is the Forefather of Abraham see Lk 3:34 which was the breaking of the Law of God, the covenant of God, that Adam broke covenant is seen here:
Hos 6:7
But they like men [Adam] have transgressed the covenant: there have they dealt treacherously against me.
Well Christ as the substitute on the cross for the sins of the seed of Abraham, not only bore the curse for them, but became a curse for them, so that, when Christ took away their sin on the Tree, He redeemed them out of the curse of the Law and Covenant Deut 29:21
And the LORD shall separate him unto evil out of all the tribes of Israel, according to all the curses of the covenant that are written in this book of the law:
Gods people whom Christ died for can never be called cursed i.e Num 23:7-8
7 And he took up his parable, and said, Balak the king of Moab hath brought me from Aram, out of the mountains of the east, saying, Come, curse me Jacob, and come, defy Israel.
8 How shall I curse, whom God hath not cursed? or how shall I defy, whom the LORD hath not defied?
cp 2 Cor 5:19 & Rom 8:33
For Christ has become a curse for them already and has borne all their charges !
Now, it should go without saying that those who will yet hear these words from The Saviour, the Seed of Abraham Matt 25:41
41Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:
cannot be any for whom Christ died for substituted for. Those can be only cursed for this Gal 3:1021
10 For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse: for it is written, Cursed is every one that continueth not in all things which are written in the book of the law to do them.
These are born under the curse of the law and remain so, with no redemption, and so shall hear those dreadful words in the day of Judgment.
They were not of the seed of Abraham or of the woman, but of the seed of the serpent ! see Gen 3:14-15
It is in this way Jesus was made sin for the sins of us [ The seed of Abraham] by becoming their sin bearer; for He was also made a curse for His People Gal 3:13
13 Christ hath redeemed us [seed of Abraham] from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us [seed of Abraham]: for it is written, Cursed is every one that hangeth on a tree:
The first we read of any curse is Gen 3:17
17And unto Adam he said, Because thou hast hearkened unto the voice of thy wife, and hast eaten of the tree, of which I commanded thee, saying, Thou shalt not eat of it: cursed is the ground for thy sake; in sorrow shalt thou eat of it all the days of thy life;
and this curse is the result of Adam's Sin who BTW is the Forefather of Abraham see Lk 3:34 which was the breaking of the Law of God, the covenant of God, that Adam broke covenant is seen here:
Hos 6:7
But they like men [Adam] have transgressed the covenant: there have they dealt treacherously against me.
Well Christ as the substitute on the cross for the sins of the seed of Abraham, not only bore the curse for them, but became a curse for them, so that, when Christ took away their sin on the Tree, He redeemed them out of the curse of the Law and Covenant Deut 29:21
And the LORD shall separate him unto evil out of all the tribes of Israel, according to all the curses of the covenant that are written in this book of the law:
Gods people whom Christ died for can never be called cursed i.e Num 23:7-8
7 And he took up his parable, and said, Balak the king of Moab hath brought me from Aram, out of the mountains of the east, saying, Come, curse me Jacob, and come, defy Israel.
8 How shall I curse, whom God hath not cursed? or how shall I defy, whom the LORD hath not defied?
cp 2 Cor 5:19 & Rom 8:33
For Christ has become a curse for them already and has borne all their charges !
Now, it should go without saying that those who will yet hear these words from The Saviour, the Seed of Abraham Matt 25:41
41Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:
cannot be any for whom Christ died for substituted for. Those can be only cursed for this Gal 3:1021
10 For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse: for it is written, Cursed is every one that continueth not in all things which are written in the book of the law to do them.
These are born under the curse of the law and remain so, with no redemption, and so shall hear those dreadful words in the day of Judgment.
They were not of the seed of Abraham or of the woman, but of the seed of the serpent ! see Gen 3:14-15
The scripture that proves we have a freewill, a choice; the ability to choose, right or wrong, good or evil, is what mentions evil.
JLB
GodsGrace
CF Ambassador
If our faith does not save us,,,then what does?
What does reckoned mean?
What does Christ's faith was reckoned mean?
I think the problem between us might be this:
Faith comes from God...it is a gift of God, included in the whole package of salvation as is stated
in Ephesians 2:8-9 NASB
7so that in the ages to come He might show the surpassing riches of His grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus.
8For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God;
9not as a result of works, so that no one may boast.
I added verse 7 because it tells why God has given us the gift of salvation....
Because He is just and righteous and kind...rich in mercy and full of great love (verse 4).
Faith and salvation are a gift...
But we must want this gift.
Let's do this:
Please explain how a person becomes saved.
John Smith lives down the block and is not saved.
How does he become saved??
Roger, we're using the same verses to support different views.
There's a misunderstanding here.
I agree.
I think you mean that we will exhibit some of the traits Jesus had through the power of the Holy Spirit.
Is this what you mean?
Jesus is not the MAN in James, but I cannot convince you.
And I don't have a version of the bible....you do since you use only the KJV.
I use different versions, and have been using the NASB for many years.
Recently I've decided to use the NLT because it's easier to understand and I think
we should use a bible that's easy to understand.
No Roger....we would only think that it means A MAN....any man or any woman...any human being, which is how MAN is used in the bible.
Every MAN has works,,,or should have.
Jesus is not the only MAN that had works to do.
And Jesus is NEVER referred to as a man but as the Son of God, or the Son of Man.
Our faith is not generated in the sense that we create it.
As I've stated, it's a gift from God.
It's just not zapped to us by God...we must want it.
As to the standard of works....
I surely hope we will not be judged by Jesus' standard of works.
He fulfilled His works perfectly,,,I doubt any of us can or will.
Please explain to me how John Smith was saved.
That might clear up some ideas.
GodsGrace
CF Ambassador
God gifts us with faith when we believe the gospel and believe in our Lord Jesus.
Faith is given to us once we believe because God is a just God, a fair God, a merciful God, a loving God.
We may hear the gospel....come to believe...and receive faith.
Faith comes by hearing....Romans 10:17
We may see something....
John believed Jesus had risen from the dead because he SAW that the tomb was empty and the linens were folded.
John 20:8 We might witness a miracle, or see something that makes us believe.
We come to believe in God and so we receive faith.
We can choose whether or not to believe that God exists...
and to believe IN God.
You keep posting these verses....
we all agree that we are not saved by works or the law but by faith in Christ.
Romans 5:1
Therefore having been justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ.
1. We have faith and so are justified - declared right with God.
2. We then have peace with God THROUGH Jesus our Savior.
We believe.
We have faith.
We get peace through Jesus.