The Atonement: What did it REALLY Accomplish?

[GodsGrace]

Did you read the scriptures I posted which say otherwise? Also, to have a intelligent discussion, please provide a definition of free will so we're both talking about the same thing - thx
Please explain what you think the scriptures I posted mean

Do you also not understand what free will is, just like Fastfredy0 ?

How do YOU explain free will,,,,which is understood by everyone EXCEPT calvinists.
You must be a 5 pointer or you'd know what free will is.

This is what free will is:
Your will is free to choose between 2 alternatives (or more).
And usually, when speaking of biblical matters, it would be a moral choice.

 

[GodsGrace]

Didn't say that of my own free will I didn't think it up. I believe I quoted the Bible, didn't I ? If you disagree with it, you're disagreeing with the Bible

You quoted the bible?
Which verse?

 

[GodsGrace]

Yeah, using different Bible versions as we do, it will be difficult to find areas of agreement. As I mentioned earlier
yours seems oriented towards the communicating of the "message" based upon the translator's perspective which I think they have taken liberties with -- the words seem to get lost. The KJV, while not always perfect, is more oriented to the words themselves, which the message is built upon. So at this point I think we are chasing our tails. However, I suggest you look again at 2 Peter 1:1 in the NLT. It is telling us that faith is "given to you". Their faith was GIVEN to them. What faith? Where did it originate? Answer: from Christ - there is no other person or place from where it could have come.

Please stop worrying about the version I use.
The KJV uses the word OBTAINED for 2 Peter 1:1
To obtain something means that we get something.
In this case it's faith.
We get this faith because God is righteous...He is right.
He gifts us this faith - so that we OBTAIN it because we believe in Him and He is faithful to Himself.

It's easy Roger.
I think your reformed teaching is getting in the way of understanding faith.
You say you're not reformed...but you really do sound like it.

Don't think that I am. Righteousness comes by Christ's faith, not ours. When someone is assessed as "righteous" it can only be because Christ's faith was given to them - faith and righteousness are inseparable. Remember, we are not saved by anything we do, so we can't be saved by our faith - whatever you think our faith is.

Faith is not something we DO.
Faith is not a work.
I'm not getting into this again.
The New Testament (whatever version you care to read) pits faith with works.
FAITH IS NOT A WORK and the New Testament affirms this.
Romans 11:6
6But if it is by grace, it is no longer on the basis of works, otherwise grace is no longer grace.

[Rom 3:22 KJV] 22 Even the righteousness of God [which is] by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference:



Gal 2:16 explains:

[Gal 2:16 KJV] 16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.

Take a look at this and see what you come up with:

Galatians 2:16 Parallel: Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by

biblehub.com

We believe in Christ because we have been given the faith of Christ. A true faith in Christ is an indication of having received the faith of Christ.



It is impossible for us to have true faith in Christ of ourselves. We cannot be saved by anything we may do or not do. Salvation is a gift. By definition, a gift is given, not earned or deserved. If given on the basis of earning or deserving, then it wasn't a gift

Please read yours below carefully
Yours: [Rom 6:23 NLT] 23 For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life through Christ Jesus our Lord.

"free gift": nothing we do can earn it - it's free, to include by our supposed faith - eternal life is only given. the verse says nothing about our faith as a prerequisite to it - it is solely "through Christ Jesus".

Agreed.
I've been saying that faith is a free gift all along...

Question is: How do we get it?
If you understand how we get it,,,you'll also understand that it is OUR faith that saves us....

For we are saved BY GRACE, THROUGH FAITH,,,,

 

[rogerg]

If our faith does not save us,,,then what does?

Christ. He's the Savior, isn't He?

What does reckoned mean?
What does Christ's faith was reckoned mean?

Accounted, imputed.
The faithfulness of Christ work in satisfying God the Father's promise to Abraham.
This faithfulness removed the transgression of Adam and Eve, and hence the law of sin and
death from over the Elect.
His faith is given to those He chose to save, as though it was theirs. Included in
His faith are his works.

But we must want this gift.

The only way someone will want it is if they are first born-again.
Remember, the god of this world has blinded the minds of them that believe not.
The salvation of God (by grace) is diametrically opposed to that which Satan offers(works),
So those not born again believe they must, and by their nature want, establish their own righteousness
instead of submitting themselves to the righteousness of God. Why? Because they believe that Satan is truly god

Let's do this:
Please explain how a person becomes saved.
John Smith lives down the block and is not saved.
How does he become saved??

To do that, we have to go back further. At the foundation of the world, God knew and chose
those whom He would save. At that time, he wrote their names into a book called the Lamb's book of life;
sometimes referred to as the Lamb's book of the living; sometimes referred to as the book of life
( of the world to come - but not to be confused with the book of life of this world, which instead contains the names
of everyone ever born into this world). At a time of God's choosing, Christ was sent forth to remove the transgression of Adam and Eve - which transgression caused the law, which caused sin to be imputed to mankind( without the law sin cannot be imputed) - so therefore, without the violation, no law, without the law, no sin. Then, and also at a time of God's choosing, He, through the Holy Spirit, saves those individuals whose names are in the Lamb's book of life. He does this by taking them from the law of sin and death placing them under the Law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus. Along with this, although maybe not exactly at the same time (not sure), the Holy Spirit indwells them, imputing to them on the earthly level the characteristics of Christ, to include His faithfulness, which includes His works, hence the verse that says faith without works is dead. The Holy Spirit also renews them in a multitude of ways including giving spiritual eyes that can see, ears that can hear, and a mind that can think. After that happens, they begin to exhibit the attributes of Christ along with faith in Christ. The exhibiting of these attributes is an indication of their salvation.
So, John Smith in your example, if he is not saved at some point up to the last moments of his life, didn't become saved because God didn't choose him to save him - God is the Savior.
Think this covers it. But I might may have missed something or other.

I think you mean that we will exhibit some of the traits Jesus had through the power of the Holy Spirit.
Is this what you mean?

What did I say? They seem pretty much the same to me - but maybe I missed it

Jesus is not the MAN in James, but I cannot convince you.
And I don't have a version of the bible....you do since you use only the KJV.
I use different versions, and have been using the NASB for many years.
Recently I've decided to use the NLT because it's easier to understand and I think
we should use a bible that's easy to understand.

It may be easier to understand but that doesn't mean it is a good idea. In the version you use, which I have referenced in our dialogue, I've found that it adds an unwarranted level to the Bible by interpreting the biblical verses by translators drawing their own conclusions then writing then as if them as if they were the Bible . Anything added which is over and above the direct translation of the works (as much as is possible), should be considered highly suspect and not trustworthy. I realize however, that no translation is perfect, but as much as is possible, we should look to translations that do that as little as possible.

No Roger....we would only think that it means A MAN....any man or any woman...any human being, which is how MAN is used in the bible.

Every MAN has works,,,or should have.
Jesus is not the only MAN that had works to do.
And Jesus is NEVER referred to as a man but as the Son of God, or the Son of Man.

Did you actually read what I wrote? Were it to be of any man, then verse would have no meaning for the reasons I previously stated which then begs the questions: what works are they, and how many of them are necessary- by not defining them, the verse is meaningless to us- or worse. Christ's faith and works are the only absolute standard with any meaning by which they may be assessed- anything/everything else is only conjecture and assumption and therefore does not inform. The working of any man for faith and salvation, are in violation of God's law that we not work for it. The verse HAS to have Christ in view as the man, but, if it's not Christ, then we are placed into an unsolvable/unresolvable dilemma; that is, if we believe our faith saves us but according to the verse works have to be part of faith (or its faith that is dead and useless), then how would we do one without also doing the other - having faith without works -- one violating the other, yet told BOTH are necessary? The ONLY way that dilemma can be resolved is if Christ is the man with His perfect faith and perfect works, and they become imputed to the recipient with no effort on their part: a gift in the truest sense of the word. Therefore, Christ HAS to be the man of the verse. Actually, I'm kind of surprised you even see it the way you do.

ur faith is not generated in the sense that we create it.
As I've stated, it's a gift from God.
It's just not zapped to us by God...we must want it.

Wait - if it is wanted by someone, then, logically speaking, they would already have to have it, otherwise what could
cause them want it? Anyway, if we have to want it to get it, then it's not a gift. A true gift is given without any preconditions.


,

 

[rogerg]

You quoted the bible?
Which verse?

Don't know what you're referring to. Repost the original

 

[rogerg]

He gifts us this faith - so that we OBTAIN it because we believe in Him and He is faithful to Himself.

He gives us faith because we already have faith? is that what you're saying?

 

[rogerg]

Agreed.
I've been saying that faith is a free gift all along...

Question is: How do we get it?
If you understand how we get it,,,you'll also understand that it is OUR faith that saves us....

For we are saved BY GRACE, THROUGH FAITH,,,,

We have been saved by Christ's faithfulness, not ours.
If it is a free gift as you say then we cannot do anything to get it.

 

[rogerg]

Faith is not something we DO.
Faith is not a work.
I'm not getting into this again.
The New Testament (whatever version you care to read) pits faith with works.
FAITH IS NOT A WORK and the New Testament affirms this.
Romans 11:6
6But if it is by grace, it is no longer on the basis of works, otherwise grace is no longer grace.

Yes, it does, so if faith without works is dead, then that means works of some kind must be necessary, but, as you say, from the recipient's position works are in violation of God's command which they are. Consequently, faith AND works must be to be imputed to the recipient and they must be Christ's faith and works

 

[rogerg]

You must be a 5 pointer or you'd know what free will is.

Five pointer?

Agreed.
I've been saying that faith is a free gift all along...

Question is: How do we get it?
If you understand how we get it,,,you'll also understand that it is OUR faith that saves us....

For we are saved BY GRACE, THROUGH FAITH,,,,

How does someone get a "free gift"? it's given, because, well, it is given with no preconditions, isn't it?
We are saved because CHRIST was FAITHFUL. We are NOT saved by our faith otherwise we'd need to provide works too. Our faith happens solely as a result of becoming born-again

 

[rogerg]

This is what free will is:
Your will is free to choose between 2 alternatives (or more).
And usually, when speaking of biblical matters, it would be a moral choice.

How can someone have free will to chose if their mind has been blinded by Satan as the Bible tells us it has? Would you call that free will?

 

[brightfame52]

More on the accomplishment of the Atonement !

Now, regarding the substitutionary death of Christ for sinners, that in and of itself was not able to meet the righteous demands of God's Law, for to merely punish the innocent and clear the guilty was also a violation of Gods Law which Christ came to fulfill. Prov 17:15

He that justifieth the wicked, and he that condemneth the just, even they both are abomination to the LORD.

However, the Head being Identified with it's body may be charged for the crimes of the body i.e Eph 5:23,30

23 For the husband is the head of the wife, even as Christ is the head of the church: and he is the Saviour of the body.

30 For we are members of his body, of his flesh, and of his bones.

He identified with His body in taking on the seed of Abraham ! He had the redeemers right to redeem His people as the nearest of kin to them, and holding by virtue of a higher status, as the firstborn in the seed of Abraham, because they too partook of flesh and blood Heb 2:14,16b

14 Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, he also himself likewise took part of the same;

16b but he took on him the seed of Abraham.

You see, He substituted for those who were of the seed of Abraham, they all belonged to the same seed line, He and they !22

 

[GodsGrace]

Christ. He's the Savior, isn't He?

Christ saved us.
Right.
Through what means?

Jesus told the bleeding woman....
YOUR FAITH HAS SAVED YOU.
Luke 7:50
50And He said to the woman, “Your faith has saved you; go in peace.”

He didn't say:
I have saved you.

We are saved THROUGH the instrument of FAITH.
Ephesians 2:8
8For by grace you have been saved through faith;
By grace, by a gift of God...THROUGH FAITH.

Galatians 2:16
16Yet we know that a person is not justified by works of the law but through faith in Jesus Christ, so we also have believed in Christ Jesus, in order to be justified by faith in Christ...
We are justified THROUGH FAITH in Jesus...so we believe in Christ Jesus in order to be JUSTIFIED BY FAITH.

It is our BELIEF in Jesus.....which is FAITH in Jesus....
that saves us.

Accounted, imputed.
The faithfulness of Christ work in satisfying God the Father's promise to Abraham.
This faithfulness removed the transgression of Adam and Eve, and hence the law of sin and
death from over the Elect.

Agreed.

His faith is given to those He chose to save, as though it was theirs. Included in
His faith are his works.

Where does the N.T. tell us that GOD CHOSE whom to save?
Please provide some verses.

Unconditional Election is UNBIBLICAL.
God chooses who to save but based on THEIR ACCEPTING HIS CONDITIONS.
Election is not unconditional.
God is not a respecter of persons.

Romans 2:10-11
10but glory and honor and peace to everyone who does good, to the Jew first and also to the Greek.
11For there is no partiality with God.
Anyone who wishes to be saved can be,,,by following God's rules for salvation: Belief In His Son....
Obeying the commandments.

Acts 10:34
34So Peter opened his mouth and said: “Truly I understand that God shows no partiality,

The only way someone will want it is if they are first born-again.
Remember, the god of this world has blinded the minds of them that believe not.

So, according to you, someone has to be born again before they believe?
This is NOT the order of salvation.
If belief is necessary for salvation...
then a person must believe first, and then he becomes born again.

Acts 2:21
21And it shall be that everyone who calls on the name of the Lord...
shall be saved.
First we call on the name of the Lord....THEN we are saved.

Acts 2:38
17“Therefore if God gave to them the same gift as He gave to us also after believing in the Lord Jesus Christ, who was I that I could stand in God’s way?”
The gift is received AFTER believing in the Lord Jesus.

The number of verses proving this are many...
and I've posted many besides the above.
Apparently you do not trust the N.T.

The salvation of God (by grace) is diametrically opposed to that which Satan offers(works),
So those not born again believe they must, and by their nature want, establish their own righteousness
instead of submitting themselves to the righteousness of God. Why? Because they believe that Satan is truly god

Most atheists do not care about establishing "their own righteousness".
They really don't care to know about God.
Not everyone accepts God.

To do that, we have to go back further. At the foundation of the world, God knew and chose
those whom He would save.

God did NOT chose those whom He would save.
He FOREKNEW those that would choose Him.
Romans 8:29-30
29For those whom He foreknew, He also predestined to become conformed to the image of His Son, so that He would be the firstborn among many brethren;
30and these whom He predestined, He also called; and these whom He called, He also justified; and these whom He justified, He also glorified.
GOD FOREKNEW
HE PREDESTINED THEM TO BECOME CONFORMED TO THE IMAGE OF HIS SON
THOSE WHOM HE CALLED HE WOULD JUSTIFY

The above is NOT unconditional....
God foreknew those that would accept His Son....
He predestined them to become conformed to the image of Jesus.

At that time, he wrote their names into a book called the Lamb's book of life;
sometimes referred to as the Lamb's book of the living; sometimes referred to as the book of life
( of the world to come - but not to be confused with the book of life of this world, which instead contains the names
of everyone ever born into this world). At a time of God's choosing, Christ was sent forth to remove the transgression of Adam and Eve - which transgression caused the law, which caused sin to be imputed to mankind( without the law sin cannot be imputed)

If, without the law, as you say, sin cannot be imputed,,,
then why do you say that Adam's transgression was imputed to us??
You have created a conflict.



part 1 of 2

 

[GodsGrace]

rogerg

part 2 of 2

- so therefore, without the violation, no law, without the law, no sin. Then, and also at a time of God's choosing, He, through the Holy Spirit, saves those individuals whose names are in the Lamb's book of life. He does this by taking them from the law of sin and death placing them under the Law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus.

This is incorrect.
Please show with scripture how you come to t his conclusion just as I've shown you above
the process of salvation.

BTW...names can be blotted our of the BOOK OF LIFE.
Revelation.

Along with this, although maybe not exactly at the same time (not sure), the Holy Spirit indwells them, imputing to them on the earthly level the characteristics of Christ, to include His faithfulness, which includes His works, hence the verse that says faith without works is dead. The Holy Spirit also renews them in a multitude of ways including giving spiritual eyes that can see, ears that can hear, and a mind that can think.

I agree with most...but are y ou saying that unsaved persons cannot THINK?

After that happens, they begin to exhibit the attributes of Christ along with faith in Christ. The exhibiting of these attributes is an indication of their salvation.

Agreed.

So, John Smith in your example, if he is not saved at some point up to the last moments of his life, didn't become saved because God didn't choose him to save him - God is the Savior.
Think this covers it. But I might may have missed something or other.

You missed that GOD does NOT choose who will be saved based on NOTHING.
He chooses those that wish to be saved.

I've provided many verses.
Please provide some that state unconditional election to be true.

It may be easier to understand but that doesn't mean it is a good idea. In the version you use, which I have referenced in our dialogue, I've found that it adds an unwarranted level to the Bible by interpreting the biblical verses by translators drawing their own conclusions then writing then as if them as if they were the Bible . Anything added which is over and above the direct translation of the works (as much as is possible), should be considered highly suspect and not trustworthy. I realize however, that no translation is perfect, but as much as is possible, we should look to translations that do that as little as possible.

This is incredible....
You and those that believe as you do,,,add to scripture always...
and thus read into it what it does not say.

Did you actually read what I wrote? Were it to be of any man, then verse would have no meaning for the reasons I previously stated which then begs the questions: what works are they, and how many of them are necessary- by not defining them, the verse is meaningless to us- or worse. Christ's faith and works are the only absolute standard with any meaning by which they may be assessed- anything/everything else is only conjecture and assumption and therefore does not inform. The working of any man for faith and salvation, are in violation of God's law that we not work for it.

I'm happy to hear that you agree that faith is not a work by saying that the working of any man for faith is in violation of God's law.

The verse HAS to have Christ in view as the man, but, if it's not Christ, then we are placed into an unsolvable/unresolvable dilemma; that is, if we believe our faith saves us but according to the verse works have to be part of faith (or its faith that is dead and useless), then how would we do one without also doing the other - having faith without works -- one violating the other, yet told BOTH are necessary? The ONLY way that dilemma can be resolved is if Christ is the man with His perfect faith and perfect works, and they become imputed to the recipient with no effort on their part: a gift in the truest sense of the word. Therefore, Christ HAS to be the man of the verse. Actually, I'm kind of surprised you even see it the way you do.

James, who knew Jesus, is making a statement.
YOU are adding to the verse by putting Jesus' name into it.
You are doing exactly what you said we cannot do just above.
You cannot add to a verse.
Every Christian, except the reformed, know that MAN means ANY MAN...ANY HUMAN.

Wait - if it is wanted by someone, then, logically speaking, they would already have to have it, otherwise what could
cause them want it? Anyway, if we have to want it to get it, then it's not a gift. A true gift is given without any preconditions.

A gift is a gift.
God OFFERS you the gift....
You have to reach out and take it.
It's free....but you have to want it.
If you don't TAKE IT...you cannot utilize that gift.

 

[Fastfredy0]

How does someone get a "free gift"? it's given, because, well, it is given with no preconditions, isn't it?

It a catch phrase those that save themselves use to distance themselves from having to do something to be saved as that would be a work which would contradict scripture.
Basically, it is a contradiction in the final analysis.

Premise 1: We are not saved by works (works is a mental of physical effort to achieve a purpose) 2 Timothy 1:9; many others
Premise 2: I am the cause (self-determination, free will) of believing. Believing what: that for the only time among billions of people one person raised himself from the dead and that can cause me to go to heaven (work: mental effort to achieve purpose/salvation)
Conclusion: One premise must be wrong, so I will hide the contradiction by the motto: Salvation is a gift and I don't have to do anything to get it but accept it and we won't delve into the necessity of premise 2 as then we have a contradiction and I would have to rewrite a major portion of my doctrine.

"I have faith that Jesus created the conditions by which I could save myself" Arminian author unknown.

 

[JLB]

It a catch phrase those that save themselves use to distance themselves from having to do something to be saved as that would be a work which would contradict scripture.
Basically, it is a contradiction in the final analysis.

Premise 1: We are not saved by works (works is a mental of physical effort to achieve a purpose) 2 Timothy 1:9; many others
Premise 2: I am the cause (self-determination, free will) of believing. Believing what: that for the only time among billions of people one person raised himself from the dead and that can cause me to go to heaven (work: mental effort to achieve purpose/salvation)
Conclusion: One premise must be wrong, so I will hide the contradiction by the motto: Salvation is a gift and I don't have to do anything to get it but accept it and we won't delve into the necessity of premise 2 as then we have a contradiction and I would have to rewrite a major portion of my doctrine.

"I have faith that Jesus created the conditions by which I could save myself" Arminian author unknown.

We are saved by obeying the Lord, by obeying Him through the power of His Spirit; His grace.


Since you have purified your souls in obeying the truth through the Spirit in sincere love of the brethren, love one another fervently with a pure heart, having been born again, not of corruptible seed but incorruptible, through the word of God which lives and abides forever,
1 Peter 1:22-23


Do you believe a person is saved apart from believing the Gospel of Jesus Christ?




God does not do the believing or obeying for us, rather He gives us the enabling grace to believe and therefore obey the Gospel truth.


After we are born again, the obeying continues, as we are required to obey His commandments and doctrine.


Whoever transgresses and does not abide in the doctrine of Christ does not have God. He who abides in the doctrine of Christ has both the Father and the Son. 2 John 9


Those who stray from the truth, and teach another doctrine, outside of the doctrine of Christ, no longer have God.


He who says, “I know Him,” and does not keep His commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him. 1 John 2:4



Here’s is an admonition directly from Paul to Timothy about the doctrine.


Take heed to yourself and to the doctrine. Continue in them, for in doing this you will save both yourself and those who hear you.
1 Timothy 4:16



Can you see we must continue to walk in obedience to the Lord, even after we are saved, obeying His Commandments as well as His teaching; His doctrine.


If the Lord throws you a life preserver as a free gift and you must grab ahold of it and not let go.

 

[Fastfredy0]

We are saved by obeying the Lord, by obeying Him through the power of His Spirit; His grace.

Ah, now this is REFORMED theology. We obey God (believe in the death and resurrection of Christ - faith) by the power of the Spirit by grace alone.

Sweet, you've come over to my side of the argument.

 

[JLB]

Ah, now this is REFORMED theology. We obey God (believe in the death and resurrection of Christ - faith) by the power of the Spirit by grace alone.

Sweet, you've come over to my side of the argument.

We must obey the Gospel command REPENT, in order to be saved.


Then Peter said to them, “Repent, and let every one of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins; and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. Acts 2:38


Turning to God in submission to Him as Lord, means just that; Jesus Christ is now your Lord; Your Master in whom you obey.


And having been perfected, He became the author of eternal salvation to all who obey Him, Hebrews 5:9


Those who don’t obey Him as their Lord, will not receive eternal salvation.


But why do you call Me ‘Lord, Lord,’ and not do the things which I say? Whoever comes to Me, and hears My sayings and does them, I will show you whom he is like: He is like a man building a house, who dug deep and laid the foundation on the rock. And when the flood arose, the stream beat vehemently against that house, and could not shake it, for it was founded on the rock. But he who heard and did nothing is like a man who built a house on the earth without a foundation, against which the stream beat vehemently; and immediately it fell. And the ruin of that house was great.”
Luke 6:46-49

• But he who heard and did nothing is like a man who built a house on the earth without a foundation, against which the stream beat vehemently; and immediately it fell. And the ruin of that house was great.

….And the ruin of that house was great.





JLB

 

[rogerg]

Christ saved us.

I'm done

 

[rogerg]

It a catch phrase those that save themselves use to distance themselves from having to do something to be saved as that would be a work which would contradict scripture.
Basically, it is a contradiction in the final analysis.

Yup, I agree

 

[JLB]

Yup, I agree

Do you believe a person can be saved by his disobedience?