The Atonement: What did it REALLY Accomplish?

[Atonement]

God has caused me to believe salvifically.

I see... well since you believe to be a perfect male form to acquire salvation. It's not the Jehovah God whom you serve. Jesus did not come to call the righteous, but the sick (sinner) to repentance. Therefore knowing your heart, the position of doctrine that is not what we as Christians believe here. You will do well for yourself if you take knowledge of the Bible before falsely taking it out of context.

You see FastFredy, Jesus came to Paul on the road to Damascus, asking him why he was persecuting Him. This frightened him so much he fell on his face. FastFredy, Paul was killing Christians, and was trying to drive out the name of Jesus. He did Not choose God... Rather God chose him.

 

[JLB]

I see... well since you believe to be a perfect male form to acquire salvation. It's not the Jehovah God whom you serve. Jesus did not come to call the righteous, but the sick (sinner) to repentance. Therefore knowing your heart, the position of doctrine that is not what we as Christians believe here. You will do well for yourself if you take knowledge of the Bible before falsely taking it out of context.

You see FastFredy, Jesus came to Paul on the road to Damascus, asking him why he was persecuting Him. This frightened him so much he fell on his face. FastFredy, Paul was killing Christians, and was trying to drive out the name of Jesus. He did Not choose God... Rather God chose him.

Agreed, God chose Saul of Tarsus to be an Apostle to the Gentiles.


God did not choose him for salvation while rejecting others.



Hopefully you agree.





JLB

 

[Fastfredy0]

He [Paul] did Not choose God... Rather God chose him.

Agreed. All the elect are chosen by God.

I see... well since you believe to be a perfect male form to acquire salvation. It's not the Jehovah God whom you serve.

?????

Jesus did not come to call the righteous, but the sick (sinner) to repentance.

There are none that are righteous, no not one.

Therefore knowing your heart, the position of doctrine that is not what we as Christians believe here.

?????

You will do well for yourself if you take knowledge of the Bible before falsely taking it out of context.

As should we all.

 

[Atonement]

Agreed, God chose Saul of Tarsus to be an Apostle to the Gentiles.


God did not choose him for salvation while rejecting others.



Hopefully you agree.





JLB

Saul (later known as Paul) was infact given authority to be a Apostle for the gentiles. God chose Saul (Paul) in the middle of the persecuting of Christians. Saul (Paul) had instant salvation (in a sense) no need to have faith, why? Christ appeared to Him sorta like doubting Thomas, he would not believe unless he saw the marks of the nails and touch his side, then he would believe, when Christ appeared to Thomas, he fell on his knees and said "My Lord, my God"
Same like thing happened on the road to Damascus. Instant salvation, but it came at a price 3/4 of Paul's teachings were from inside a prison cell. Where later he would die for his faith. Thats how much impact it had on him.

So I agree with you JLB, but I dont believe Saul (Paul) had the traditional salvation road as we do

 

[JLB]

Agreed. All the elect are chosen by God.

Elected for purpose not salvation.

 

[rogerg]

How does a person become born again, BEFORE he hears and believes the Gospel?

IOW, according to the scriptures.

They are born again when they are indwelt by the Holy Spirit. Unless one has been given ears by God that can hear
spiritually (through becoming born again), no matter how many times they may hear the Gospel with earthly ears, they will never gain an understanding or perception of its truth. Nevertheless, for those who have received spiritual ears, when they hear, their faith will grow.

[Rom 12:2 KJV]
2 And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what [is] that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God.
[Tit 3:5 KJV] 5 Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;

[Rom 11:6-8 KJV]
6 And if by grace, then [is it] no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if [it be] of works, then is it no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.
7 What then? Israel hath not obtained that which he seeketh for; but the election hath obtained it, and the rest were blinded
8 (According as it is written, God hath given them the spirit of slumber, eyes that they should not see, and ears that they should not hear;) unto this day.

[Eph 4:21, 23-24 KJV]
21 If so be that ye have heard him, and have been taught by him, as the truth is in Jesus: ...
23 And be renewed in the spirit of your mind;
24 And that ye put on the new man, which after God is created in righteousness and true holiness.
[Col 3:10 KJV]
10 And have put on the new [man], which is renewed in knowledge after the image of him that created him:

“If God does it all” then why does He instruct us to obey the Gospel.

You'd probably need to tell me exactly which verses you have in mind by "obey the Gospel" for a more specific answer, but generally speaking, when someone becomes born again they're not immediately imbued with all spiritual knowledge. Through the preaching and reading of the true Gospel does spiritual knowledge grow. The overriding and unifying doctrine of which that they should obey, is that Christ is Lord, Savior and God, and that faith should be in Him and not themselves. Of course until born again, the spiritually correct understanding of that message will fall on deaf ears.

Why did Jesus Christ suffer and die an extremely excruciating death if there were some other way?

Don't know what you mean? What other way? There is no other way. What Christ had to endure to remit sin was established by the God the Father. However, theoretically speaking, if Christ did not undergo it, or was unsuccessful (which was impossible), then the Holy Spirit could not have been given, salvation would be impossible, and a new heaven, new earth and new Holy City could not have been established nor occupied.

Please share the scripture with us that says we are born again, apart from the Gospel of Jesus Christ; apart from the knowledge of Christ?

Being born again is a result of being indwelt by the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirt uses the Gospel to give a correct understanding of spiritual doctrine that it alone contains, to those who have become born again. I do not believe it happens in the reverse; that is, hearing the Gospel first, then, should the hearer come to the correct understanding of it, and faith in it, to be indwelt by the Holy Spirit - God must do it all. Please see the above verses

My reply above isn't intended to be a full and complete treatise on all aspects of salvation. only
to answer the best I can, the immediate questions you've asked above. There are many other aspects that could be discussed and debated and I don't mean to imply or suggest otherwise.

 

[rogerg]

Elected for purpose not salvation.

Huh?

 

[Fastfredy0]

Elected for purpose not salvation.

Aside: Your sentence is difficult to comprehend ...

God elects persons. Persons do not elect God. It is God who in Christ decides for us – not we who, by making a decision for Christ, decide for God. The attempt to relieve the tension between divine election and human freedom empties election of real significance, since it makes God’s choice simply an endorsement of man’s choice.

It is God who sovereignly chooses the elect, so that Paul says, "He has chosen you," and not "He has approved of your choice." If God does little more than accept our choice, then he does not choose us in any real sense of the term. But Jesus says, "You did not choose me, but I chose you" (John 15:16). Therefore, Arminianism is false. V. Cheung

1. Matthew 15:13 He answered, “Every plant which My heavenly Father did not plant [non-elect] will be torn up by the roots.
2. Matthew 20:1-16 … 16 So the last shall be first, and the first last: for many be called, but few chosen. This is in regards to the choosing of the elect to enter the kingdom of heaven
3. John 6:37 All that the Father gives Me will come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will certainly not cast out. [the action is the Father giving to the Son; believers are not involved in the transaction save their coming is the result of the Father’s action][Counter argument: Perhaps the reason for the father’s gift is the choice of men. Salvation is dependent upon giving; one does not give because one foresees faith]
4. John 6:63 It is the Spirit who gives life; the flesh is no help at all. The words that I have spoken to you are spirit and life. 64 But [still] some of you fail to believe and trust and have faith. For Jesus knew from the first who did not believe and had no faith and who would betray Him and be false to Him. 65 And he said, “This [referring to “some of you fail to believe in verse 64] is why I told you that no one can come to me unless it is granted [that is, unless he is enabled to do so] him by the Father.”
5. Seven times Jesus speaks of believers as given to Him by the Father. John 17:2; 6 twice; 9, 11, 12, 24
6. John 15:16 You did not choose me, but I [Jesus] chose you and appointed you that you should go and bear fruit and that your fruit should abide, so that whatever you ask the Father in my name, he may give it to you. … and by extension, all Christians … Arminian: "You have 'chosen' me only because you know that I would choose you, so that my will logically precedes and determines your will!" He says, "If conversion is necessary, then by my will I will turn against my wickedness, even my own evil will, by my might I will escape from Satan's hold and sin's grip, and by my power I will turn to Christ and permit him to save me, as if I need him at all." V. Cheung

It is an insolent delusion to think that depraved man can self-determine his salvation by his righteous work of believing the gospel that God himself calls foolishness in man's eyes.

 

[Fastfredy0]

Elected for purpose not salvation.

Huh?

Agreed. It makes no sense.

 

[JLB]

They are born again when they are indwelt by the Holy Spirit.

On this I agree.


But where we disagree, is you claim this takes place before a person hears and believes the Gospel, I believe it takes place when a person hears and believes and therefore obeys the Gospel, in which they receive the knowledge of Jesus Christ and what He did for us on the cross.


Regeneration, being saved, being born again, are all synonymous terms.


But when the kindness and the love of God our Savior toward man appeared, not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to His mercy He saved us, through the washing of regeneration and renewing of the Holy Spirit, whom He poured out on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Savior, that having been justified by His grace we should become heirs according to the hope of eternal life. Titus 3:4-7


Since you have purified your souls in obeying the truth through the Spirit in sincere love of the brethren, love one another fervently with a pure heart, having been born again, not of corruptible seed but incorruptible, through the word of God which lives and abides forever,
1 Peter 1:22-23




Are you saying being born again, saved, regenerated are somehow different things?




JLB

 

[JLB]

2 And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what [is] that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God.

This is something we do after we are saved.


JLB

 

[JLB]

They are born again when they are indwelt by the Holy Spirit. Unless one has been given ears by God that can hear
spiritually (through becoming born again), no matter how many times they may hear the Gospel with earthly ears, they will never gain an understanding or perception of its truth. Nevertheless, for those who have received spiritual ears, when they hear, their faith will grow.

[Rom 12:2 KJV]
2 And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what [is] that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God.
[Tit 3:5 KJV] 5 Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;

[Rom 11:6-8 KJV]
6 And if by grace, then [is it] no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if [it be] of works, then is it no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.
7 What then? Israel hath not obtained that which he seeketh for; but the election hath obtained it, and the rest were blinded
8 (According as it is written, God hath given them the spirit of slumber, eyes that they should not see, and ears that they should not hear;) unto this day.

[Eph 4:21, 23-24 KJV]
21 If so be that ye have heard him, and have been taught by him, as the truth is in Jesus: ...
23 And be renewed in the spirit of your mind;
24 And that ye put on the new man, which after God is created in righteousness and true holiness.
[Col 3:10 KJV]
10 And have put on the new [man], which is renewed in knowledge after the image of him that created him:


You'd probably need to tell me exactly which verses you have in mind by "obey the Gospel" for a more specific answer, but generally speaking, when someone becomes born again they're not immediately imbued with all spiritual knowledge. Through the preaching and reading of the true Gospel does spiritual knowledge grow. The overriding and unifying doctrine of which that they should obey, is that Christ is Lord, Savior and God, and that faith should be in Him and not themselves. Of course until born again, the spiritually correct understanding of that message will fall on deaf ears.


Don't know what you mean? What other way? There is no other way. What Christ had to endure to remit sin was established by the God the Father. However, theoretically speaking, if Christ did not undergo it, or was unsuccessful (which was impossible), then the Holy Spirit could not have been given, salvation would be impossible, and a new heaven, new earth and new Holy City could not have been established nor occupied.


Being born again is a result of being indwelt by the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirt uses the Gospel to give a correct understanding of spiritual doctrine that it alone contains, to those who have become born again. I do not believe it happens in the reverse; that is, hearing the Gospel first, then, should the hearer come to the correct understanding of it, and faith in it, to be indwelt by the Holy Spirit - God must do it all. Please see the above verses

My reply above isn't intended to be a full and complete treatise on all aspects of salvation. only
to answer the best I can, the immediate questions you've asked above. There are many other aspects that could be discussed and debated and I don't mean to imply or suggest otherwise.

I certainly don’t want “explanations“.


What is was asking for are scriptures that teach us we are “born again” before we hear and believe the Gospel.

 

[JLB]

Huh?

Elected for purpose, not elected for salvation.


I tell the truth in Christ, I am not lying, my conscience also bearing me witness in the Holy Spirit, that I have great sorrow and continual grief in my heart. For I could wish that I myself were accursed from Christ for my brethren, my countrymen according to the flesh, who are Israelites, to whom pertain the adoption, the glory, the covenants, the giving of the law, the service of God, and the promises; of whom are the fathers and from whom, according to the flesh, Christ came, who is over all, the eternally blessed God. Amen. Romans 9:1-5

• of whom are the fathers and from whom, according to the flesh, Christ came,

This is the context from which Romans 9 flows.


But it is not that the word of God has taken no effect. For they are not all Israel who are of Israel, nor are they all children because they are the seed of Abraham; but, “In Isaac your seed shall be called.”
Romans 9:6


This chapter is dealing with the concept of election for purpose;
the purpose being the lineage of Christ.


When we hear the phrase... Jacob I have loved, but Esau I have hated.” Contextually it’s referring to the purpose, of establishing the lineage of Christ.


People try to lift this verse out of its context to mean that God hated Esau so He chose to save Jacob and sent Esau to hell.



(for the children not yet being born, nor having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works but of Him who calls), Romans 9:12



Election for purpose not salvation.



Everything in the book of Romans from chapter 1 through 16 is framed in the contextually framework of faith: the obedience of faith.







JLB

 

[rogerg]

What is was asking for are scriptures that teach us we are “born again” before we hear and believe the Gospel.

We have to be given ears to hear before we can hear. One hears and their belief grows throughout one's lifetime from that - it a continuum, not binary.

I certainly don’t want “explanations“.


What is was asking for are scriptures that teach us we are “born again” before we hear and believe the Gospel.

Just curious JLB, did you research your question?

[1Co 2:10, 12 KJV]
10 But God hath revealed [them] unto us by his Spirit: for the Spirit searcheth all things, yea, the deep things of God. ... 12 Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God.

 

[JLB]

God elects persons. Persons do not elect God.

Agreed.

God elects people for purpose, not for salvation.

Each person must choose to obey the Lord.


Paul made this clear.


But I discipline my body and bring it into subjection, lest, when I have preached to others, I myself should become disqualified.
1 Corinthians 9:27



Nobody gets a free pass to live in sin, to live according to the flesh and still inherit The kingdom of God.


Now the works of the flesh are evident, which are: adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lewdness, idolatry, sorcery, hatred, contentions, jealousies, outbursts of wrath, selfish ambitions, dissensions, heresies, envy, murders, drunkenness, revelries, and the like; of which I tell you beforehand, just as I also told you in time past, that those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God.
Galatians 5:19-21





JLB

 

[JLB]

Just curious JLB, did you research your question?

[1Co 2:10, 12 KJV]
10 But God hath revealed [them] unto us by his Spirit: for the Spirit searcheth all things, yea, the deep things of God. ... 12 Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God.

Sorry nothing here about being born again before we hear and believe the Gospel.

 

[JLB]

Agreed. It makes no sense.

When you learn your theology by reading the commentaries of men, many things in the Bible wont make sense to you.



JLB

 

[GodsGrace]

Agreed. It makes no sense.

It makes sense.
You don't understand because you don't understand the N.T.

 

[rogerg]

Sorry nothing here about being born again before we hear and believe the Gospel.

to Have the Holy Spirit IS to have been born again. For something to be have been revealed, the Holy Spirit
must have first been present within them

 

[Atonement]

Sorry nothing here about being born again before we hear and believe the Gospel.

Thief on the cross? He didn't live a Christian life being a Thief nor was he baptized, yet Jesus told him "today you will be with me in paradise"
All the thief asked Jesus was to remember him when He entered His Kingdom.

We shouldn't attempt to put God, the Eternal King in a box and shut down how He chooses to save an individual and how or why He saves them.

Over and over in the 4 Gospels we have incidents like this. One example: the woman with a 7 year blood flow problem. The woman touched the hem of his garment. He told her that her faith has made her whole. All she wanted was just to touch him. Yet He felt power being released through her faith.

I understand what you are saying and I don't disagree at all, I'm just trying to open the mind a little more on this subject matter, that's all. My intentions are from a humble heart.