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The Atonement: What did it REALLY Accomplish?

Roger,
You're stating that you DID NOT state your reply of your own free will.
This is because you do not believe in your own free will.
You said you were quoting the bible.

WHICH BIBLE VERSE STATES WE DO NOT HAVE FREE WILL?

Easy....
Just answer WHERE in the bible does it state we do not have free will....
In going back over some of the older posts I noticed some I might have missed, and didn't want to leave them hanging - no need to reply unless you feel the need

Regarding your free will question above of "where", do these verses work for you?

[2Co 4:3 KJV] 3 But if our gospel be hid, it is hid to them that are lost:
[2Co 4:4 KJV] 4 In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.

If someone's mind is blind spiritually and the gospel of Christ be hid to them as 4:3- 4 informs, then how have they free will? Answer: they don't. And if being of the "believe not" group (as all who aren't born again are, and as all who are born again were), then, if spiritual sight is gained, what possibly could have caused it? Answer: the Holy Spirit through spiritual rebirth. So, we are completely dependent upon God in/for all aspects of salvation
 
I feel that its best not to accidentally blaspheme the holy spirit by way of the Atonement.

What I mean is this: I can try to make atonement for my wife's behavior last night at dinner. Which in its context would be an absolutely correct way to say such a thing. Not by blood, but by making good on a wrongful deed.

In religious context: Its through the sacrifice of Christ on the Old Rugged Cross that reconciles mankind back to God. All mankind, but it's by the spirit of God that we are drawn to Him. To deny the Atonement or the affect it has on the human race, is taking away spirit thereof.

Atonement made in Old Testament was through an annual ceremony of a sacrifice of a lamb for the sins of that tribe.

Atonemrnt in the New Testament was made by God's Sons Blood which carries forever through Jesus Christ.
Hi Atonement...
Welcome back!

Who do you believe is denying the atonement?
(I don't think anyone is)
 
Again, this teaching that we should not obey the Gospel is not from Christ.
I never said we should not obey the Gospel I said we cannot obey the Gospel because of the blindness of our minds before becoming born again
 
Can someone (example: the 1282 North American Indian) be saved without believing the gospel? If so, what must he do/believe to be saved?

I really don’t know about any 1282 Indians.


I do what the scriptures teach.


Nor is there salvation in any other, for there is no other name under heaven given among men by which we must be saved.
Acts 4:12


Jesus said to him, “I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through Me. John 14:6


Now, can the Lord reveal himself to anyone He chooses, like He did with Paul?

Yes.



JLB
 
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I never said we should not obey the Gospel I said we cannot obey the Gospel because of the blindness of our minds before becoming born again


So how does a person become born again, so that he can obey the Gospel?




JLB
 
Once again the Calvinists are tripped up because they seemingly cannot reconcile the fact that Jesus Christ is God. To follow God is to therefore follow Christ.

Let's look at what St. Paul says then we will turn to the words of our Blessed Lord Himself...

1 Corinthians 4
4My conscience is clear, but that does not make me innocent. It is the Lord who judges me. 5Therefore judge nothing before the appointed time; wait until the Lord comes. He will bring to light what is hidden in darkness and will expose the motives of the heart. At that time each will receive their praise from God.

St. Paul is clear our conscience can accuse us because God's law is written into our hearts...


Romans 2
12For as many as have sinned without law shall also perish without law: and as many as have sinned in the law shall be judged by the law; 13(For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified. 14For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves: 15Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another 16In the day when God shall judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ according to my gospel.



Now we have our Blessed Lord and the story of the Good Samaritan...

Luke 10
25And, behold, a certain lawyer stood up, and tempted him, saying, Master, what shall I do to inherit eternal life? 26He said unto him, What is written in the law? how readest thou? 27And he answering said, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy strength, and with all thy mind; and thy neighbour as thyself. 28And he said unto him, Thou hast answered right: this do, and thou shalt live. 29But he, willing to justify himself, said unto Jesus, And who is my neighbour? 30And Jesus answering said, A certain man went down from Jerusalem to Jericho, and fell among thieves, which stripped him of his raiment, and wounded him, and departed, leaving him half dead. 31And by chance there came down a certain priest that way: and when he saw him, he passed by on the other side. 32And likewise a Levite, when he was at the place, came and looked on him, and passed by on the other side. 33But a certain Samaritan, as he journeyed, came where he was: and when he saw him, he had compassion on him, 34And went to him, and bound up his wounds, pouring in oil and wine, and set him on his own beast, and brought him to an inn, and took care of him. 35And on the morrow when he departed, he took out two pence, and gave them to the host, and said unto him, Take care of him; and whatsoever thou spendest more, when I come again, I will repay thee. 36Which now of these three, thinkest thou, was neighbour unto him that fell among the thieves? 37And he said, He that shewed mercy on him. Then said Jesus unto him, Go, and do thou likewise.


Notice what the lawyer is arguing. Sound familiar? He is arguing only they can love neighbor; only they are elect. Remember the Samaritans desecrated the Temple and were despised by the Jews. They were the outsiders. But Jesus turns the tables on the lawyer and elevates the Samaritan as the exemplar of who actually loves God and neighbor.

God is going to save those who follow Him, even the Native American Indians from 1282.
 
I do what the scriptures teach.


Nor is there salvation in any other, for there is no other name under heaven given among men by which we must be saved.
Acts 4:12


Jesus said to him, “I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through Me. John 14:6
So, to be clear ... you are saying any adult (not talking about mentally disabled) that died and never heard Paul's gospel of Christ is in hell? That God loves these people and showed His love by giving them 0.00% chance of salvation?
 
Once again the Calvinists are tripped up because they seemingly cannot reconcile the fact that Jesus Christ is God. To follow God is to therefore follow Christ.
Ridiculous assertion. Where do you get your information ... atheist comic books?


God is going to save those who follow Him, even the Native American Indians from 1282.
And what did the 1282 do to be saved? Was he saved by faith and if so what did he believe? What is the saving gospel for these people according to Walpolism? I keep asking and no one can answer.
 
So, to be clear ... you are saying any adult (not talking about mentally disabled) that died and never heard Paul's gospel of Christ is in hell? That God loves these people and showed His love by giving them 0.00% chance of salvation?
Why don't you answer to JLB's entire post and stop playing games with what he posted.
Stop putting words in person's mouths.
 
Ridiculous assertion. Where do you get your information ... atheist comic books?



And what did the 1282 do to be saved? Was he saved by faith and if so what did he believe? What is the saving gospel for these people according to Walpolism? I keep asking and no one can answer.
Because YOU do not seem to understand the N.T., does not mean that others also do not.
Apparently you are unable to get around the idea that God is not in a Calvinist Box from which He cannot escape.

Here,,,
I'll post it for you again:

ROMANS 1:18-20
18For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men who suppress the truth in unrighteousness,
19because that which is known about God is evident within them; for God made it evident to them.
20For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes, His eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly seen, being understood through what has been made, so that they are without excuse.


What do your calvinist systematic theology books tell you about persons that lived BEFORE the bible was even written....
Persons that live on the other side of the earth...
Persons that have never heard of Jesus...

But that are aware of God,
Love Him,
and live for Him.....

They are saved by faith....
just like Abraham was saved by faith and there was no
gospel that he could read....
But he still heard the voice of God
and OBEYED it and was saved by his faith.

Are you aware of the fact that Jesus is God?
Are you aware that Jesus was IN GOD as THE WORD before the incarnation?
 
So, to be clear ... you are saying any adult (not talking about mentally disabled) that died and never heard Paul's gospel of Christ is in hell?

Please refer to the post number where I said this.




JLB
 
Ridiculous assertion. Where do you get your information ... atheist comic books?



And what did the 1282 do to be saved? Was he saved by faith and if so what did he believe? What is the saving gospel for these people according to Walpolism? I keep asking and no one can answer.
The above is for Walpole.

You have a difficult time understanding the One, True God.

Let's try again:
This is what Walpole stated:

Once again the Calvinists are tripped up because they seemingly cannot reconcile the fact that Jesus Christ is God. To follow God is to therefore follow Christ.


To follow God
is to follow Christ.
 
God does it all: some He chose for it, some He didn't. That's makes Him the Savior and us not

How does a person become born again, BEFORE he hears and believes the Gospel?

IOW, according to the scriptures.

“If God does it all” then why does He instruct us to obey the Gospel.

Why did Jesus Christ suffer and die an extremely excruciating death if there were some other way?


Please share the scripture with us that says we are born again, apart from the Gospel of Jesus Christ; apart from the knowledge of Christ?





JLB
 
Ridiculous assertion. Where do you get your information ... atheist comic books?



And what did the 1282 do to be saved? Was he saved by faith and if so what did he believe? What is the saving gospel for these people according to Walpolism? I keep asking and no one can answer.
We have all answered you Fred.
Just because you don't agree does not mean we have not answered you.

Here's what John Macarthur believes on the subject:

The following is an excerpt from The MacArthur New Testament Commentary on Romans 1.

For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes, His eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly seen, being understood through what has been made, so that they are without excuse. (1:20)

Paul specifies the content of the revelation of Himself that God makes known to all mankind. Since the creation of the world, he declares, God has made His invisible attributes visible. The particular attributes that man can perceive in part through his natural senses are God’s eternal power and His divine nature. God’s eternal power refers to His never-failing omnipotence, which is reflected in the awesome creation which that power both brought into being and sustains. God’s divine nature of kindness and graciousness is reflected, as Paul told the Lystrans, in the "rains from heaven and fruitful seasons, satisfying your hearts with food and gladness" (Acts 14:17).

God’s natural revelation of Himself is not obscure or selective, observable only by a few perceptive souls who are specially gifted. His revelation of Himself through creation can be clearly seen by everyone, being understood through what has been made.
con't....

source: https://www.gty.org/library/bibleqn...who-never-hear-the-gospel-be-held-accountable
 
Never mind. Communication is to laborious/frustrating. I withdraw my questions.

Communication is too frustrating for you?


I think you mean honest and respectful communication is too frustrating for you, because you are used to misrepresenting what people say, thus making up what they didn’t say, then proceeding with presumptuous “premises” as if they did.


This type of dialog, which are nothing more than logical fallacies, only create strife and division among the people here.


Please cease from this behavior.





JLB
 
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God only "willed" Paul because Paul willed God. That self-determination (free will)


God only choses us because we chose Him.

For God so loved the world that He gave His only Begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish but shall have eternal life... John 3:16

God loved you FastFredy, so much that He sent His son to die on a rugged cross. At least at minimum, honor that when speaking out about Jehovah.

Other gods of this world (I won't mention cause I don't want to be banned) will ask that you die for them, or do deeds to be accepted.

All you have to do is believe and accept His eternal gift.

Do you accept the eternal gift of God Almighty the Eternal King?
 
Communication is too frustrating for you?
No, communication is frustrating WITH you.

I think you mean honest and respectful communication is too frustrating for you, because you are used to misrepresenting what people say
No, I mean that what you say and what you mean to say are often 2 different things. You meant to say "X"; but you often say "Y". Simple concepts and the English language are hurdles you cannot successfully ascend.

thus making up what they didn’t say, then proceeding with presumptuous “premises” as if they did.
... ah, my point is made. You say "X" when you mean "Y". Then when someone talks about "Y" you are confused and wrongly come to the conclusion that the other person has manipulated what you said. For example, rogerg said that only the disobedient can be saved. I still don't think you understand what he was talking about.
 
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