The Atonement: What did it REALLY Accomplish?

[rogerg]

God elects people for purpose, not for salvation.

[Eph 1:1, 4-5 KJV]
1 Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the will of God, to the saints which are at Ephesus, and to the faithful in Christ Jesus:
[Eph 1:4-5 KJV]
4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:
5 Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,

[1Pe 1:1-2 KJV]
1 Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ, to the strangers scattered throughout Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia, and Bithynia,
2 Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied.

[Rom 8:33 KJV] 33 Who shall lay any thing to the charge of God's elect? [It is] God that justifieth.

 

[JLB]

We have to be given ears to hear before we can hear. One hears and their belief grows throughout one's lifetime from that - it a continuum, not binary.

We all grow and mature in Christ, it’s a process, for sure.


Still looking for scripture that says we are born again before we hear and believe the Gospel.


Here let me lay out the road map for you, step by step.


For “whoever calls on the name of the LORD shall be saved.”

• How then shall they call on Him in whom they have not believed?
• And how shall they believe in Him of whom they have not heard?
• And how shall they hear without a preacher?
• And how shall they preach unless they are sent?

As it is written:
“How beautiful are the feet of those who preach the gospel of peace,
Who bring glad tidings of good things!”

But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Isaiah says, “LORD, who has believed our report?” So then faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the word of God. Romans 10:13-17




JLB

 

[Fastfredy0]

When you learn your theology by reading the commentaries of men, many things in the Bible wont make sense to you.

I learn from the Spirit who provided the bible and teachers God gave us so I can rightly divide the word of God. The cumulative hours and peer reviewed study of these men a are in the 1,000,000s.
You teach yourself so your cumulative hours may be in the 1000s.

I adhere for the most part to Calvinism which has been scrutinized by 1000s of men, you adhere JBLism which has been scrutinized by yourself.


Proverbs 12:15 The way of a fool is right in his own eyes, but a wise man listens to counsel.

 

[JLB]

Thief on the cross? He didn't live a Christian life being a Thief nor was he baptized, yet Jesus told him "today you will be with me in paradise"
All the thief asked Jesus was to remember him when He entered His Kingdom.

We shouldn't attempt to put God, the Eternal King in a box and shut down how He chooses to save an individual and how or why He saves them.

Over and over in the 4 Gospels we have incidents like this. One example: the woman with a 7 year blood flow problem. The woman touched the hem of his garment. He told her that her faith has made her whole. All she wanted was just to touch him. Yet He felt power being released through her faith.

I understand what you are saying and I don't disagree at all, I'm just trying to open the mind a little more on this subject matter, that's all. My intentions are from a humble heart.

He fulfilled this principle of salvation, just like the rest of us must do n order to be saved.


that if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved. For with the heart one believes unto righteousness, and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation. Romans 10:9-10

• if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved.

Then he said to Jesus, “Lord, remember me when You come into Your kingdom. Like 23:42


He recognized and confessed Jesus as Lord, and believed in his heart Jesus would indeed be raised from the dead and come into His kingdom.






JLB

 

[JLB]

The cumulative hours and peer reviewed study of these men a are in the 1,000,000s.

No less then Saul of Tarsus.

 

[Fastfredy0]

Re: The cumulative hours and peer reviewed study of these men a are in the 1,000,000s.

No less then Saul of Tarsus.

Again, the sentence does not make sense in the context of my statement that there is great benefit in using the biblical study of men.

Does anyone know what this statement means? Paul studied less than 1,000,000 hours?

Aside: You don't believe in using the biblical study of men to advice people; yet, you give your commentary on the bible. Why is this not hypocritical?????

 

[JLB]

Re: The cumulative hours and peer reviewed study of these men a are in the 1,000,000s.

Again, the sentence does not make sense in the context of my statement that there is great benefit in using the biblical study of men.

Does anyone know what this statement means? Paul studied less than 1,000,000 hours?

Aside: You don't believe in using the biblical study of men to advice people; yet, you give your commentary on the bible. Why is this not hypocritical?????

Here let me explain it.


Saul of Tarsus, a Pharisee of Pharisee’s would put anyone to shame with the way he studied the scriptures his whole life, which resulted in him persecuting the Church. Being an enemy of God, fight those who were walking in the truth.


All the study in the world won’t help you if you read everything through the eyes of a preconceived idea.




JLB

 

[Fastfredy0]

All the study in the world won’t help you if you read everything through the eyes of a preconceived idea.

Not necessarily. It is the study of the truth that matters. If the preconceived idea is true then it is advantagous to study it. It is TRUTH that determines worth, not preconception.

It is of great advantage to study using the wisdom and accumulated knowledge of those that teach truth. God says as much by supplying teachers, pastors and apostles.

The idea of not teaching your children about Christ using one preconceptions is ludicrous.
Proverbs 22:6 Train up a child in the way he should go, and when he is old he will not depart from it.
Assuming you had kids, did you not teach them your preconceived theological ideas. Why do you share your preconceived theological ideas on this forum when you say "they won't help you". This is hypocritical.

 

[JLB]

It is the study of the truth that matters.

So you don’t believe the scriptures are the truth?


And having been perfected, He became the author of eternal salvation to all who obey Him, Hebrews 5:9


Those who obey Him will receive eternal salvation.


Do you believe this?


Or, do you believe those who disobey Him will receive eternal salvation?




JLB

 

[JLB]

The idea of not teaching your children about Christ using one preconceptions is ludicrous.

Back to logical fallacies are you?


Please show me where I said we are not to teach our children?




JLB

 

[JLB]

I adhere for the most part to Calvinism

Yes, and I follow the teachings of Christ.


Since John Calvin has been dead a while you get your information from the commentaries of men, as I said.


Following a man made doctrine will always lead you against the teachings of Christ; the doctrine of Christ.



JLB

 

[Fastfredy0]

So you don’t believe the scriptures are the truth?

Again, you are confused. I stated: "It is the study of the truth that matters."

What is truth?
Man must not live on bread alone
but on every word that comes
from the mouth of God.”

Those who obey Him will receive eternal salvation. Do you believe this? Or, do you believe those who disobey Him will receive eternal salvation?

Not going to waste more time with this question. You didn't understand the previous answers of rogerg

 

[Fastfredy0]

Please show me where I said we are not to teach our children?

That is the logical conclusion of your general statement about it being a bad thing to learn from the preconceived ideas of others. I taught my preconceived theology to my children. Your stated learning perconcieved ideas is bad.
You really have to think about the consequences of the general statements you make.

I have 3 cats.... Larry, Curly and Moe.

I threw my 3 cats in the water. I did not say I threw Larry in the water but I know from the general statement that I threw Larry in the water.

 

[JLB]

Not going to waste more time with this question. You didn't understand the previous answers of @rogerg

Oh I understand what rogerg is saying, that we are born again first then later on we hear the Gospel and are saved.

I’m still waiting for the scriptures I asked for that teaches us we are born again before we hear and believe the Gospel, then later on at “sometime” we hear the Gospel and then we believe and are saved.


Now back to you.


And having been perfected, He became the author of eternal salvation to all who obey Him, Hebrews 5:9


Those who obey Him will receive eternal salvation.


Do you believe this?


Or, do you believe those who disobey Him will receive eternal salvation?




JLB

 

[Fastfredy0]

So you don’t believe the scriptures are the truth?

Again, you are confused. I stated: "It is the study of the truth that matters."

What is truth?
Man must not live on bread alone
but on every word that comes
from the mouth of God.”

Those who obey Him will receive eternal salvation. Do you believe this? Or, do you believe those who disobey Him will receive eternal salvation?

Not going to waste more time with this question.

 

[JLB]

That is the logical conclusion of your general statement

No it’s certainly is not, at least not for people who actual love the truth.


Getting your theology from commentaries is not the same as teaching your child about Jesus.


God help the parent who teaches his child false man made doctrine whereby he puts a stumbling block before him for life.




JLB

 

[JLB]

Again, you are confused. I stated: "It is the study of the truth that matters."

Im not confused.

Do you believe the scriptures are the truth?


Simple question?


JLB

 

[Fastfredy0]

Yes, and I follow the teachings of Christ.


Since John Calvin has been dead a while you get your information from the commentaries of men, as I said.

We both follow the teachings of Christ. You depend upon yourself as the ultimate source of wisdom in regards to understanding the Bible. I depend upon myself and the advice of many learned men. I believe scripture to be good advice to rely on the council of many, you rely on the council of ONE. Calvinism vs. JLBism

 

[Atonement]

Is this topic now about salvation and/or truth and not the Atonement? Everyone has gone off subject. Understandably topics vere but this has almost two pages of off topic subject matter.

If your questions about the Atonement has been answered, great!

 

[JLB]

Your stated learning perconcieved ideas is bad.

I said reading the scriptures through the eyes of a preconceived idea is not going to help you; help you discover the truth.




JLB