The Atonement: What did it REALLY Accomplish?

[rogerg]

More on remission of sins !

In rereading my reply to you from a few minutes ago I was very unhappy with the way I stated something in it.
I said that Jesus ONLY had to pay for one sin. I don't like that I used the word "only". However, I didn't mean to suggest that the severity of His sacrifice was diminished in any manner at all or that it was trivial - I most definitely do not believe that. I believe it was the same either way - one or many -and more terrible than we could ever imagine. I just meant that all of the punishment was due to one transgression but the agony of Jesus's sacrifice remains as we've always perceived it (to the degree that we are able to perceive it).

 

[brightfame52]

For whatever it's worth, this is my thought process regarding sin and its forgiveness. I'd be interested in your thoughts.

First, I believe sin began and was propagated throughout time by Adam's and Eve's transgression in the garden of Eden. I think that single event was the basis of and the reason for, the rest of the Bible. Therefore, it seems reasonable to me that any discussion of forgiveness or remission of sin needs to start with that. At the behest of Satan, Adam and Eve ate the fruit of the knowledge of good and evil. The name of that tree gives a lot of information about sin. To me, for a knowledge of good and evil, there needs to be a common controlling criteria established that separates good from evil. I believe that criteria is manifested in/by the concept of law which in itself is also a law. So, by the eating of the tree, the concept of law came to life, and (for lack of a better phrase) was ingested into the spiritual core of Adam and Eve and passed to all of their offspring. With the existence of law, sin could be assessed and judgements levied. Without it, judgment would be impossible. The tree of life, also in the garden, is the polar opposite of it. Its name tells us that it gives life unconditionally without any judgment possible. In Romans God, through Paul, substantiates this concept when he states:
[Rom 7:8 KJV]
8 But sin, taking occasion by the commandment, wrought in me all manner of concupiscence. For without the law sin [was] dead.
So, to summarize, I believe Christ came to this world to eliminate sin for those He came to save by eliminating on their behalf the law. This He did by establishing the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus. Consequently, by the removal of that one overriding law, was all sin destroyed (committed throughout time) which had been based upon it. I think where we may differ is that you believe Christ removed each individual sin but I believe He had to remove only one: the sin that brought to life the law. If I've misstated your position, please let me know

There is a lot more that can be said about this but I think I'm reaching my reply max, plus, I don't know what your interest level in it might be. To be honest, I'm not 100% sure I'm right about this, so I'd be very interested in reading your thoughts/critique.

Hi Roger, no disrespect, but I would rather spend time discussing my post you quoted from . Did you understand it ?

 

[rogerg]

Hi Roger, no disrespect, but I would rather spend time discussing my post you quoted from . Did you understand it ?

Hi brightfame,
None taken.
As far as I know I did but maybe not. It seemed to me we go off on tangents to each other because our starting points may be different. So, past a certain point they become difficult to reconcile. Correct me if I've misunderstood, but it seems you're referring to Christ suffering punishment for removal of the commission of sin. I'm saying that it was for removal of the law which is what causes sin. Did I misunderstand you?

 

[rogerg]

but I would rather spend time discussing my post you quoted from . Did you understand it ?

If you'd rather discuss your post, that's fine. No problem

 

[brightfame52]

It gives redemption cont

Christ gave Himself a ransom for many, thus effecting their redemption, these terms when used in reckoning the work of Christ are joined together, the ransom denoting the price paid [ Christ life or blood] and the redemption, the effect of the ransom, is the liberation out of a prison of a prisoner [ who had been shut up into unbelief and sin, spiritual death]. The ransom paid demands the prisoners to be set free from the captivity of Satan !

This [being set free] enables Two Things #1 The one being set free from the captivity of Satan has been granted repentance 2 Tim 2:25-26

25 In meekness instructing those that oppose themselves; if God peradventure will give them repentance to the acknowledging of the truth;

26 And that they may recover themselves out of the snare of the devil, who are taken captive by him at his will.

Yes, The redemption in Christ Christ Jesus delivers from the snare and captivity of Satan to the acknowledging of the Truth.

You see those who do not obey or believe the Truth or contradict it as described in 2 Thess 2:11,12

11 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:

12 That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.

Thats because they are in captivity to Satan, but if Christ died for them, they will experience redemption or liberation from Satan and His lies, that's what it means to have the Son set you free Jn 8:36

36 If the Son therefore shall make you free, ye shall be free indeed.

Jesus is referring to the redemption in His blood which will set free . liberate and deliver them He shall die for.

#2. Redemption enables and effects one to believe, because unbelief is merely a symptom of being captive and blinded by the God of this world [Satan] or the prince of this world . 2 Cor 4:3-4

3 But if our gospel be hid, it is hid to them that are lost:

4 In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.

see http://www.studylight.org/com/geb/view.cgi?book=2co&chapter=004&verse=004

It is the work of Satan to keep unbelievers minds blinded and unable to see the Truth in the Gospel, but the redemption in Christ opens up [by regeneration] blind eyes Lk 4:18

18 The Spirit of the Lord is upon me, because he hath anointed me to preach the gospel to the poor; he hath sent me to heal the brokenhearted, to preach deliverance to the captives, and recovering of sight to the blind, to set at liberty them that are bruised,

see how deliverance [redemption] is connected with recovering of sight for the blind ? Redemption therefore delivers from Satan blindness so we can see and believe. One must see the Son [spiritually] in order to believe as per Jn 6:40

40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.

He is set forth in the Gospel, for Paul says that Christ had been set before you to the Galatians Gal 3:10

1O foolish Galatians, who hath bewitched you, that ye should not obey the truth, before whose eyes[Spiritual] Jesus Christ hath been evidently set forth, crucified among you?

So redemption in Christ blood delivers from impenitence and unbelief !

None for whom Christ died can die unrepentant and in unbelief, that would defeat His blood. !

 

[JLB]

This [being set free] enables Two Things #1 The one being set free from the captivity of Satan has been granted repentance 2 Tim 2:25-26

Being set free from Satan requires that a person respond in obedience to the Gospel, which calls for a person to repent, so they can be saved.


Contextually the passage you quoted, refers to Christians, people who are already saved, who refuse to respond to Timothy‘s correction, because they are in opposition to what he is teaching, which is what Paul taught.



And a servant of the Lord must not quarrel but be gentle to all, able to teach, patient, in humility correcting those who are in opposition, if God perhaps will grant them repentance, so that they may know the truth, and that they may come to their senses and escape the snare of the devil, having been taken captive by him to do his will. 2 Timothy 2:24-26




JLB

 

[JLB]

#2. Redemption enables and effects one to believe, because unbelief is merely a symptom of being captive and blinded by the God of this world [Satan] or the prince of this world . 2 Cor 4:3-4

3 But if our gospel be hid, it is hid to them that are lost:

4 In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.

see http://www.studylight.org/com/geb/view.cgi?book=2co&chapter=004&verse=004

It is the work of Satan to keep unbelievers minds blinded and unable to see the Truth in the Gospel, but the redemption in Christ opens up [by regeneration] blind eyes Lk 4:18

No one is saved, or redeemed apart from hearing and believing the Gospel of Jesus Christ.


But even if our gospel is veiled, it is veiled to those who are perishing, whose minds the god of this age has blinded, who do not believe, lest the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine on them. 2 Corinthians 4:4-5


The Gospel message is the light that shines in their heart, to enable them to see. That’s why the Gospel is called the “power of God unto salvation”.


For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ, for it is the power of God to salvation for everyone who believes, for the Jew first and also for the Greek. Romans 1:16


There is no power to set people free from Satan apart from the Gospel of Jesus Christ.


Claiming that people are somehow “born again”, or “redeemed and set free from Satan”, before they hear and believe the Gospel of Jesus Christ, is blatantly false doctrine.






JLB

 

[brightfame52]

Being set free from Satan requires that a person respond in obedience to the Gospel, which calls for a person to repent, so they can be saved.


Contextually the passage you quoted, refers to Christians, people who are already saved, who refuse to respond to Timothy‘s correction, because they are in opposition to what he is teaching, which is what Paul taught.



And a servant of the Lord must not quarrel but be gentle to all, able to teach, patient, in humility correcting those who are in opposition, if God perhaps will grant them repentance, so that they may know the truth, and that they may come to their senses and escape the snare of the devil, having been taken captive by him to do his will. 2 Timothy 2:24-26




JLB

You dont get it, Christs redeeming death gives release from the captivity to satan !

 

[brightfame52]

No one is saved, or redeemed apart from hearing and believing the Gospel of Jesus Christ.


But even if our gospel is veiled, it is veiled to those who are perishing, whose minds the god of this age has blinded, who do not believe, lest the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine on them. 2 Corinthians 4:4-5


The Gospel message is the light that shines in their heart, to enable them to see. That’s why the Gospel is called the “power of God unto salvation”.


For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ, for it is the power of God to salvation for everyone who believes, for the Jew first and also for the Greek. Romans 1:16


There is no power to set people free from Satan apart from the Gospel of Jesus Christ.


Claiming that people are somehow “born again”, or “redeemed and set free from Satan”, before they hear and believe the Gospel of Jesus Christ, is blatantly false doctrine.






JLB

Redemption by Christ releases from satans blindness, if not, our minds are blinded and we believe not. I explained that to you. You cant believe whats concealed from you friend !

 

[rogerg]

Redemption by Christ releases from satans blindness, if not, our minds are blinded and we believe not. I explained that to you. You cant believe whats concealed from you friend !

Absolutely true, brightfame. In addition, respectfully, don't forget the changing of the heart - that must happen too but, (and as with spiritual "hearing" and "seeing") only the Holy Spirit can do that. And until He does, no matter how often one may hear (with physical ears) the Gospel, they will never be able to understand nor come to true faith in it: the Holy Spirit must FIRST intervene.

[Jer 17:9 KJV] 9 The heart [is] deceitful above all [things], and desperately wicked: who can know it?


[Heb 8:11 KJV]
11 And they shall not teach every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for all shall know me, from the least to the greatest.
[Heb 10:15-17 KJV]
15 [Whereof] the Holy Ghost also is a witness to us: for after that he had said before,
16 This [is] the covenant that I will make with them after those days, saith the Lord, I will put my laws into their hearts, and in their minds will I write them;
17 And their sins and iniquities will I remember no more.



[2Co 3:3 KJV] 3 [Forasmuch as ye are] manifestly declared to be the epistle of Christ ministered by us, written not with ink, but with the Spirit of the living God; not in tables of stone, but in fleshy tables of the heart.


[2Co 1:21-22 KJV]
21 Now he which stablisheth us with you in Christ, and hath anointed us, [is] God;
22 Who hath also sealed us, and given the earnest of the Spirit in our hearts.


[Rom 10:10 KJV] 10
For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.

 

[JLB]

You dont get it, Christs redeeming death gives release from the captivity to satan !

The redemption is applied to those who hear and repent.

To those who hear the Gospel and repent.


Not before they hear and believe the Gospel.


I will deliver you from the Jewish people, as well as from the Gentiles, to whom I now send you, to open their eyes, in order to turn them from darkness to light, and from the power of Satan to God, that they may receive forgiveness of sins and an inheritance among those who are sanctified by faith in Me.’ “Therefore, King Agrippa, I was not disobedient to the heavenly vision, but declared first to those in Damascus and in Jerusalem, and throughout all the region of Judea, and then to the Gentiles, that they should repent, turn to God, and do works befitting repentance. Acts 26:17-20




JLB

 

[JLB]

Redemption by Christ releases from satans blindness, if not, our minds are blinded and we believe not. I explained that to you. You cant believe whats concealed from you friend !

The redemption is in context with the Gospel Message of Jesus Christ, not apart from it.

The light that shines into the minds of those whom Satan has blinded is the Gospel.



But even if our gospel is veiled, it is veiled to those who are perishing, whose minds the god of this age has blinded, who do not believe, lest the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine on them. For we do not preach ourselves, but Christ Jesus the Lord, and ourselves your bondservants for Jesus’ sake. 2 Corinthians 4:3-5




JLB

 

[brightfame52]

His Death / Blood actually Redeems !

That Christ by His death, the ransom paid, actually redeems from Satan the strong man is set forth here Jer 31:11

11 For the LORD hath redeemed Jacob, and ransomed him from the hand of him that was stronger than he.

Does not that text remind us of what Jesus said here Matt 12:28-29

28 but if I cast out devils by the Spirit of God, then the kingdom of God is come unto you.

29 Or else how can one enter into a strong man's house, and spoil his goods, except he first bind the strong man? and then he will spoil his house.

And let it be noted who it is God ransoms and redeems " Jacob " the Chosen of God , Israel, the seed of Abraham.

Also lets look at Hos 13:14

14 I will ransom them from the power of the grave; I will redeem them from death: O death, I will be thy plagues; O grave, I will be thy destruction: repentance shall be hid from mine eyes.

The redemption Christ effects will deliver from the power of the Grave, which will be more evident at the Second Coming see Jn 5:28-29, but it also delivers from death, which is to include Spiritual death, because it delivers out from the one who had the power of death Heb 2:14

Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, he also himself likewise took part of the same; that through death he might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil;

He delivers by His redeeming blood, those He died for from being dead in sin Eph 2:5

5 Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened[delivered] us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved )

All for whom Christ died and redeemed, must be quickened out of spiritual death and given life, spiritual life. So redemption secures for God's people regeneration, or Justification unto Life !

Rom 5:18

18 Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.

Life here is that quickening we receive in Eph 2: 5

So redemption is the payment of a ransom and the liberation of the ransomed, the giving of life from the dead, a quickening out of trespasses and sins. It must be added that its limited to the elect of God, His Chosen, His Israel, His Jacob out of mankind Lk 1:6840

68 Blessed be the Lord God of Israel; for he hath visited and redeemed his people,

He redeems His Chosen, Those Chosen in their Kinsmen Redeemer, Christ Jesus before the world began !

So Redemption gives Life from the dead.

 

[brightfame52]

The redemption is applied to those who hear and repent.

To those who hear the Gospel and repent.


Not before they hear and believe the Gospel.


I will deliver you from the Jewish people, as well as from the Gentiles, to whom I now send you, to open their eyes, in order to turn them from darkness to light, and from the power of Satan to God, that they may receive forgiveness of sins and an inheritance among those who are sanctified by faith in Me.’ “Therefore, King Agrippa, I was not disobedient to the heavenly vision, but declared first to those in Damascus and in Jerusalem, and throughout all the region of Judea, and then to the Gentiles, that they should repent, turn to God, and do works befitting repentance. Acts 26:17-20




JLB

You have it backwards, cant repent if in captivity, thats why Christ redeems ! You taking credit away from Christ redemptive work !

 

[brightfame52]

The redemption is in context with the Gospel Message of Jesus Christ, not apart from it.

The light that shines into the minds of those whom Satan has blinded is the Gospel.



But even if our gospel is veiled, it is veiled to those who are perishing, whose minds the god of this age has blinded, who do not believe, lest the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine on them. For we do not preach ourselves, but Christ Jesus the Lord, and ourselves your bondservants for Jesus’ sake. 2 Corinthians 4:3-5




JLB

The Gospel is hidden to them that are lost, because satan has blinded their minds so that they cant believe 2 Cor 4:3-4. One must first be released from satans blindness, Christ does that, not the Gospel. You must believe man first overcomes satans power over him so he can no longer be blinded and so believe. Thats taking credit from Christ and giving it to the spiritually dead and satan blinded sinner !

 

[JLB]

You have it backwards, cant repent if in captivity, thats why Christ redeems !

Christ did the work of redeeming the world on the cross.

Those who believe the Gospel, benefit from Christ’s redeeming sacrifice.

People who do not believe, the Gospel, do not receive the benefit of His sacrifice.

• No one can take away, or add to what Christ Jesus our Lord did on the cross; we either believe the Gospel and are saved, or reject the Gospel and are damned.

For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life.
John 3:16



Your ”theory” of being born again, saved, regenerated BEFORE we hear and believe the Gospel, is not biblical.


JLB

 

[JLB]

The Gospel is hidden to them that are lost, because satan has blinded their minds so that they cant believe 2 Cor 4:3-4. One must first be released from satans blindness, Christ does that, not the Gospel.

As we see from the actual scripture itself, the truth is the Gospel of Jesus Christ is the light, that shines forth on them.

The Gospel of Jesus Christ is the power of God unto salvation.

• lest the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine on them.

But even if our gospel is veiled, it is veiled to those who are perishing, whose minds the god of this age has blinded, who do not believe, lest the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine on them. 2 Corinthians 4:3-4



People are set free from the bondage of Satan by hearing and believing the Gospel.


We are not saved, before we hear and believe the Gospel.




JLB

 

[rogerg]

As we see from the actual scripture itself, the truth is the Gospel of Jesus Christ is the light, that shines forth on them.

Please provide us with your definition of what a Gospel is - not in spiritual terms but rather, what do you consider
a gospel to be?

Christ Himself is the light of the Gospel of Christ. So what you're saying in effect is, that you have to have Christ in order to be able to get Christ.

[Jhn 14:6 KJV]
6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.

[2Co 4:4 KJV] 4
In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.

[2Co 4:6 KJV] 6 For God, who commanded the light to shine out of darkness, hath shined in our hearts, to [give] the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ.

[Jhn 1:7-10 KJV]
7 The same came for a witness, to bear witness of the Light, that all [men] through him might believe.
8 He was not that Light, but [was sent] to bear witness of that Light.
9 [That] was the true Light, which lighteth every man that cometh into the world.
10 He was in the world, and the world was made by him, and the world knew him not.
[Jhn 8:12 KJV]
12 Then spake Jesus again unto them, saying, I am the light of the world: he that followeth me shall not walk in darkness, but shall have the light of life.

 

[JLB]

Please provide us with your definition of what a Gospel is - not in spiritual terms but rather, what do you consider
a gospel to be?

Christ Himself is the light of the Gospel of Christ. So what you're saying in effect is, that you have to have Christ in order to be able to get Christ.

That's not what Im saying, nor did I imply such utter nonsense.


The Gospel of Jesus Christ as preached on the day of Pentecost by Peter --


Then Peter said to them, “Repent, and let every one of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins; and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.
Acts 2:38



The Gospel of Jesus Christ that He commished Paul to preach to the Gentiles --

Words of Christ in red:

I will deliver you from the Jewish people, as well as from the Gentiles, to whom I now send you, to open their eyes, in order to turn them from darkness to light, and from the power of Satan to God, that they may receive forgiveness of sins and an inheritance among those who are sanctified by faith in Me.’
“Therefore, King Agrippa, I was not disobedient to the heavenly vision, but declared first to those in Damascus and in Jerusalem, and throughout all the region of Judea, and then to the Gentiles, that they should repent, turn to God, and do works befitting repentance.
Acts 26:17-20



JLB

 

[JLB]

You have it backwards, cant repent if in captivity, thats why Christ redeems ! You taking credit away from Christ redemptive work !

This nothing more than attempt to discredit me by saying “I’m taking away from Christ’s redemptive work” by believing the Gospel.

This is nothing more than a malicious attempt to smear or paint me in a negative light, to discredit me, because his argument is unscriptural.

Only those who believe (and therefore obey) the Gospel are saved; born again, regenerated.






JLB