The Atonement: What did it REALLY Accomplish?

[Chocolate Roadrunner]

One thing we can all be sure of, and we can all agree on is:

God loves us.

Be watchful for those who claim God only loves certain people, while hating others who He predestines for the fires of hell.


For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life.
John 3:16


We believe that God desires all men to be saved.


God bless you, and welcome.




JLB

Thank you for the welcome. I don't think I can say I believe in God and then say I don't accept certain of his words in scripture because I don't like what is written.

I don't think it is hate, as pertains to his Book of Life.
I also recognize Sheol, as described in his Old Testament.

 

[brightfame52]

more on remission of sins !

Reconciliation and Remission of sins or forgiveness of sins are connected with one another as per 2 Cor 5:19

19To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.

For that which was the ground of reconciliation [Christ death or blood]

It also was the ground for forgiveness of sins [Christ death or blood].

For certainly reconciliation implies in its nature a canceling out of the punishment of sin. Since it implies a being received into His Favor, God could receive us thusly, because our sins had been put away or remitted.

The greek word for remission aphesis means a sending away, and its also translated deliverance and liberty as in Lk 4:18

18 The Spirit of the Lord is upon me, because he hath anointed me to preach the gospel to the poor; he hath sent me to heal the brokenhearted, to preach deliverance to the captives, and recovering of sight to the blind, to set at liberty them that are bruised,

Notice by the way who this liberty / remission was preached to, " The Poor " not economically poor but the poor in spirit, the regenerated, those who had been made sensible sinners by New Birth see Matt 5:3. The word is also translated forgiveness in Acts 13:38 and Eph 1:7.

Forgiveness is another way of preaching the Truth of non imputation of sin as in 2 Cor 5:19 and Rom 4:7-8.

The remission of sins means God refuses, and will not charge sin to their account for whom Christ died and who become believers. It denotes that there has been deliverance from the curse of the law, Christ having been made a curse for them Gal 3. There are other words used in the NT that means the same thing i.e Heb 1:3

3 Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high:

They [ their sins] have removed from the face of God the Judge.

The non imputation of sin [remission] is not only the consequent result of Christ death, but was the underlying cause of His death, hence sin is not imputed to the members of His body, since they were imputed to their Head.

 

[brightfame52]

Perhaps unwittingly, but you just made the case for the Christian Eucharist as a propitiatory sacrifice. This is anathema in most Protestant denominations.

You lost me. Do you understand the post you quoted ?

 

[Walpole]

You lost me. Do you understand the post you quoted ?

You quoted Matt 26:28

"For this is my blood of the new testament, which is shed for many for the remission of sins."

You then gave an exegesis on how the blood of Christ atones. Yet when Jesus said those words in Matthew 26:28, He was not on Calvary, but instead in the Upper Room at the Last Supper.

Because most Protestants believe nothing actually was actually offered in the Upper Room on Holy Thursday, I was quite surprised to see you quote Jesus' words over the Eucharist in connection with the atonement.

 

[for_his_glory]

Thank you for catching me up.
And while I am not Calvinist I do know that all those points you reiterated from my post are able to be sustained by scripture.

Everyone has a view, a theory, but apart from the Holy Spirit man can teach us nothing. This is why it is so important to test the spirits that teach us as one is truth and the other error.

2Timothy 2:15 Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.

Study to shew yourself approved unto God, not unto man, denominations, non-denominations or the various religions that are in the world.

The topic is about atonement and what did it really accomplish. Can you tell us what the atonement accomplished?

 

[rogerg]

ou then gave an exegesis on how the blood of Christ atones. Yet when Jesus said those words in Matthew 26:28, He was not on Calvary, but instead in the Upper Room at the Last Supper.

Not sure this question is on topic and if not sorry, but I've always been extremely interested in understanding the subject of your reply. Namely, was Christ's blood actually spilled on the cross? I've tried to research it the best I could but was not able to find any mention of His blood being spilled there - spilled in the manner of a sacrifice, that is. Do you know where that might be found?
Thanks

 

[for_his_glory]

Even though God created man, yet Jesus being before the foundation of the world had His purpose in the world as God had all things planned out before hand. Do you think God would have known man would sin against Him? I would think so because of the fall of Satan before man was ever created. Like Judas, Jesus told him to go do what he needed to do as Jesus already knew Judas would sell Him out. God already knew ahead of time as Jesus is the arm of God even before the foundation of the world, Isaiah 53:1. This is why Mary, even though not born yet, was already predestined before the foundation of the world to birth the Christ child, Jeremiah 1:5.

Spiritual Blessings in Christ
Eph 1:3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ:
Eph 1:4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:
Eph 1:5 Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,
Eph 1:6 To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved.
Eph 1:7 In whom we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of his grace;
Eph 1:8 Wherein he hath abounded toward us in all wisdom and prudence;
Eph 1:9 Having made known unto us the mystery of his will, according to his good pleasure which he hath purposed in himself:
Eph 1:10 That in the dispensation of the fulness of times he might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; even in him:
Eph 1:11 In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will:
Eph 1:12 That we should be to the praise of his glory, who first trusted in Christ.

Notice vs. 4-5 God has chosen us in Him before the foundation of the world that we were created to be holy and without blame before Him as that was His plan in creating man. We see that has not happened as all have sinned and fallen away from His glory through that of Satan's rebellion against God when God placed him in the garden, Ezekiel 28:11-19 (Dual reference to Satan). What God predestined before the foundation of the world was His plan of salvation through Christ Jesus, not choosing those who would be His own and rejecting others. God gives everyone a chance to repent and turn back to Him, but many continue to reject Him and His Son Christ Jesus.

John 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
John 3:17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.

 

[for_his_glory]

The free gift is indeed given, however there is a condition, and that condition is to believe.


Those who believe as saved.


For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life.
John 3:16



God is good.




JLB

Absolutely as we must believe it is free as we receive His grace which is through faith in Christ Jesus

 

[brightfame52]

walpole

Yet when Jesus said those words in Matthew 26:28, He was not on Calvary, but instead in the Upper Room at the Last Supper.

So, that doesnt change anything, the point is by the shedding of His Blood comes remission of sins. You need to read the context of the post that I used the verse along with others. You talking about an entirely different subject.

 

[Walpole]

walpole



So, that doesnt change anything, the point is by the shedding of His Blood comes remission of sins. You need to read the context of the post that I used the verse along with others. You talking about an entirely different subject.

But according to Protestant theology, the Eucharist is not a sacrifice. Hence my astonishment to see you connecting Jesus' words of institution [of the Eucharist] to the atonement.

 

[Walpole]

Not sure this question is on topic and if not sorry, but I've always been extremely interested in understanding the subject of your reply. Namely, was Christ's blood actually spilled on the cross? I've tried to research it the best I could but was not able to find any mention of His blood being spilled there - spilled in the manner of a sacrifice, that is. Do you know where that might be found?
Thanks

Great question. Remember that without the shedding of blood there is no remission of sin. (Heb 9:22)

As for whether Christ literally and actually spilled His blood at Calvary, we have the witness of the Gospels...

John 19:34 ---> "But one of the soldiers with a spear pierced his side, and forthwith came there out blood and water."

 

[rogerg]

Great question. Remember that without the shedding of blood there is no remission of sin. (Heb 9:22)

As for whether Christ literally and actually spilled His blood at Calvary, we have the witness of the Gospels...

John 19:34 ---> "But one of the soldiers with a spear pierced his side, and forthwith came there out blood and water."

Thanks and appreciate your reply. Not to be a pain in the $#**, but I thought about that aspect too - that
His side was pierced. However, if I recall correctly, that occurred after His death, but, to be a sacrifice, I think it
had to be THE method of death -- I believe it was supposed to mirror the way a lamb in OT Israel was killed for a sin offering, that is, its artery was severed and blood drained out thereby putting it to death, then, it's body was burned.
The burning part I think I figured out but can't quite get the blood part to fit, unless, it was by Christ being slayed in heaven in His role as the Lamb of God. What do you think?

 

[Walpole]

Thanks and appreciate your reply. Not to be a pain in the $#**, but I thought about that aspect too - that
His side was pierced. However, if I recall correctly, that occurred after His death, but, to be a sacrifice, I think it
had to be THE method of death -- I believe it was supposed to mirror the way a lamb in OT Israel was killed for a sin offering, that is, its artery was severed and blood drained out thereby putting it to death, then, it's body was burned.
The burning part I think I figured out but can't quite get the blood part to fit, unless, it was by Christ being slayed in heaven in His role as the Lamb of God. What do you think?

That's a good point and it ties into where I'm trying to go with the other poster who introduced the Eucharist and connected it with the atonement. I think he unwittingly made the point I will use to address your question.

As you point out, and as the book of Hebrews does so beautifully, Christ's sacrifice fulfills the Old. And we know a covenant requires blood. But if Jesus' blood was shed after He died, how is a covenant? The answer is the passion of Christ concluded at the Cross, but actually began at the Last Supper, where he new covenant was established and instituted...

Matthew 26:28 ---> ""For this is my blood of the new testament, which is shed for many for the remission of sins."


What happened on Good Friday began on Holy Thursday. Without the context of Holy Thursday, what happened on Good Friday was nothing more than a brutal Roman execution. It is at this moment when the new Moses, Jesus Christ, fulfills the type / figure of the old covenant of Moses in Exodus with the new reality of the Eucharistic sacrifice...


Exodus 24 (The figure) ---> The hill, the altar, the twelve, the blood, Moses, the covenant, the eating the drinking and communion with God ---> Points to the reality of the new now being fulfilled by Jesus Christ ---> The Upper Room, the table, the twelve, the blood, the New Moses, the new covenant, the eating and drinking and communion with God.

Christ's words at the Last Supper affirm that Jesus’ real blood is creating the New Covenant. Christ replaced animal blood with His real blood as atonement for sins. He was uniquely able to offer Himself because He is both High Priest and Victim (cf. Hebrews 9:11-12)

The Last Supper and the Passion are thus a single event, just as the slaying and eating of the lamb constituted one Passover, and just as the slaying of the calves and goats and sprinkling of their blood was one sacrifice, not two. It is the Eucharistic sacrifice in the Upper Room where Christ gives his real blood. This sacrifice concludes on Calvary, when Jesus says, "It is finished" on the cross.

This is why the Eucharist cannot be merely a symbol. Rather, as Jesus said, it is the actual body and bloody of Christ.

 

[rogerg]

That's a good point and it ties into where I'm trying to go with the other poster who introduced the Eucharist and connected it with the atonement. I think he unwittingly made the point I will use to address your question.

Appreciate the information. You provided quite a lot so thank you for that. It will take me a while to ponder it all -
I'll get back to you after I do

 

[Walpole]

Appreciate the information. You provided quite a lot so thank you for that. It will take me a while to ponder it all -
I'll get back to you after I do

I realize Catholic Eucharistic theology versus the Protestant theology on it is too large a gulf to really have a good dialogue on it. However, I think it is helpful for posters here to understand how Catholics understand Christ's passion and why Catholics believe the Eucharist is thus a sacrifice and the actual body and blood of Christ.

 

[rogerg]

I realize Catholic Eucharistic theology versus the Protestant theology on it is too large a gulf to really have a good dialogue on it. However, I think it is helpful for posters here to understand how Catholics understand Christ's passion and why Catholics believe the Eucharist is thus a sacrifice and the actual body and blood of Christ.

Sounds like a good idea to me.

 

[Chocolate Roadrunner]

Everyone has a view, a theory, but apart from the Holy Spirit man can teach us nothing. This is why it is so important to test the spirits that teach us as one is truth and the other error.

2Timothy 2:15 Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.

Study to shew yourself approved unto God, not unto man, denominations, non-denominations or the various religions that are in the world.

The topic is about atonement and what did it really accomplish. Can you tell us what the atonement accomplished?

And yet here we are, each one sharing our perspective on the topic of atonement. All different opinions and perspectives. Arrived at from reading the Bible cobbled together over 1500 years by men.

Atonement is where Jesus sacrificed his perfect sinless self in the place of the elect to liberate us from slavery to sin. And atoned for the sins of the elect and their penalty of death.

 

[brightfame52]

More on remission of sins !

The non imputation of sin [remission] is not only the consequent result of Christ death, but was the underlying cause of His death, hence sin is not imputed to the members of His body, since they were imputed to their Head.

Trespasses are not laid to the Charge of the members of Christ body [ 2 nd Cor 5:19], because they were imputed to their Head Christ, for He was made sin for them, that is a sin offering. God the Father legally constituted Him to be an offering for sin in accordance with the agreement between them in the everlasting covenant. Made Him to be sin means that He appointed Him to be our substitute and to bare our sins, He became legally and officially liable to God's wrath and curse. see Gal 3:13.

Christ was made sin for God's people by the reckoning of our guilt to His own account, so much so, He called them His Transgressions and foolishness see Ps 69:5 and so Divine Justice was pleased to bruise Him [in our stead] for our sins, and so by His stripes we were healed.

Now the great evidence of one having had their sins remitted or forgiven is that they all will become believers in Him Acts 13:38-39

38 Be it known unto you therefore, men and brethren, that through this man is preached unto you the forgiveness of sins:

39 And by him all that believe are justified from all things, from which ye could not be justified by the law of Moses.

And please pay attention to vs 39 whereby it states BY HIM, everyone believing is freed from the law of moses, they are believing by Him, through Him, because of the redemption in His blood. We will see later Lord willing how redemption has to do with believing in Christ.

So Christ is the instrumental means by which the elect believe.

A similar statement is found in 1 Pet 1:21

Who by him do believe in God, that raised him up from the dead, and gave him glory; that your faith and hope might be in God.

Again, Christ being the instrumental means by which men believe in God, and Christ is God as well.

 

[brightfame52]

It gives redemption !

Eph 1:7

7 In whom we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of his grace;

As we can see Redemption is connected with remission or forgiveness of sins [which is non imputation 2 Cor 5:19] for sins are forgiven by the redeeming blood of Christ.

Because Christ on behalf of the sheep, satisfied God's wrath, the redemption of the sheep is the fruit or result thereof. In Eph 1:7 we read " In whom we have redemption through His blood, the forgiveness of sins. Its noted of the preposition Paul uses here, which is not through whom, but in whom we have redemption, because redemption was a right to each one its was to be applied to by the Spirit of promise when regenerated, and because Christ died, and we were Chosen in Him before the foundation Eph 1:4. We had a right because Jesus was our near kinsmen Redeemer because of having been chosen in Him by the Father.

Now, Just like the elect had condemnation before being born into this world, likewise the elect have redemption in Christ based upon His obedience, before being born into this world. But this ensures our release from captivity of sin.

Christ gave Himself a ransom for many, thus effecting their redemption, these terms when used in reckoning the work of Christ are joined together, the ransom denoting the price paid [ Christ life or blood] and the redemption, the effect of the ransom, is the liberation out of a prison of a prisoner [ who had been shut up into unbelief and sin, spiritual death]. The ransom paid demands the prisoners to be set free from the captivity of Satan and unbelief !See 2 Cor 4:3-4

 

[rogerg]

The non imputation of sin [remission] is not only the consequent result of Christ death, but was the underlying cause of His death, hence sin is not imputed to the members of His body, since they were imputed to their Head.

For whatever it's worth, this is my thought process regarding sin and its forgiveness. I'd be interested in your thoughts.

First, I believe sin began and was propagated throughout time by Adam's and Eve's transgression in the garden of Eden. I think that single event was the basis of and the reason for, the rest of the Bible. Therefore, it seems reasonable to me that any discussion of forgiveness or remission of sin needs to start with that. At the behest of Satan, Adam and Eve ate the fruit of the knowledge of good and evil. The name of that tree gives a lot of information about sin. To me, for a knowledge of good and evil, there needs to be a common controlling criteria established that separates good from evil. I believe that criteria is manifested in/by the concept of law which in itself is also a law. So, by the eating of the tree, the concept of law came to life, and (for lack of a better phrase) was ingested into the spiritual core of Adam and Eve and passed to all of their offspring. With the existence of law, sin could be assessed and judgements levied. Without it, judgment would be impossible. The tree of life, also in the garden, is the polar opposite of it. Its name tells us that it gives life unconditionally without any judgment possible. In Romans God, through Paul, substantiates this concept when he states:
[Rom 7:8 KJV]
8 But sin, taking occasion by the commandment, wrought in me all manner of concupiscence. For without the law sin [was] dead.
So, to summarize, I believe Christ came to this world to eliminate sin for those He came to save by eliminating on their behalf the law. This He did by establishing the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus. Consequently, by the removal of that one overriding law, was all sin destroyed (committed throughout time) which had been based upon it. I think where we may differ is that you believe Christ removed each individual sin but I believe He had to remove only one: the sin that brought to life the law. If I've misstated your position, please let me know

There is a lot more that can be said about this but I think I'm reaching my reply max, plus, I don't know what your interest level in it might be. To be honest, I'm not 100% sure I'm right about this, so I'd be very interested in reading your thoughts/critique.