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The Atonement: What did it REALLY Accomplish?

JLB said:
“Through the Spirit” is a reference to: through the power or ability of the Spirit.


  • in obeying the truth through the Spirit

Since you have purified your souls in obeying the truth through the Spirit in sincere love of the brethren, love one another fervently with a pure heart, having been born again, not of corruptible seed but incorruptible, through the word of God which lives and abides forever,
1 Peter 1:22-23


The result of obeying the Gospel is being born again.


  • having been born again, not of corruptible seed but incorruptible, through the word of God which lives and abides forever,





When you are born again, the Spirit bears witness with our spirit that we are a child of God.


The Spirit Himself bears witness with our spirit that we are children of God, Romans 8:16





JLB
Click to expand...

It concerns me that so many people who identify as Christians don't understand the role of the Holy Spirit in our lives. Without the Holy Spirit a person needs an external control over their behavior. That is the function of the Old Testament law. When one has received the Holy Spirit -- born again, born from above -- then one has an internal guide to govern their behavior.

For example, take stealing. The Mosaic law commands people to not steal. There is the desire, but the law restrains the behavior. When governed by the Holy Spirit, there is no desire to steal. It's the opposite of wanting something for nothing, wanting to take from "your neighbor", greed, etc.
 
The Holy Spirit is our guide. "When the Spirit of truth comes, he will guide you into all the truth; for he will not speak on his own, but will speak whatever he hears, and he will declare to you the things that are to come." John 16:13

If it's "obedience" then it's the law, the very thing that Christ has set us free from.
 
jaybo said:
If it's "obedience" then it's the law, the very thing that Christ has set us free from.
Click to expand...

We are not under the law of Moses; under obligation to obey the law.

We are under grace; under obligation to obey grace, the Spirit of grace, which is the Spirit of truth.


For the law was given through Moses, but grace and truth came through Jesus Christ. John 1:17


Obeying His Gospel
Obeying His Commandments
Obeying His Doctrine


And having been perfected, He became the author of eternal salvation to all who obey Him, Hebrews 5:9


Obeying the Lord is how we are saved and remain “in Him”.


Now he who keeps His commandments abides in Him, and He in him. And by this we know that He abides in us, by the Spirit whom He has given us. 1 John 3:24


He who says, “I know Him,” and does not keep His commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him. 1 John 2:4






JLB
 
JLB said:
Now he who keeps His commandments abides in Him, and He in him. And by this we know that He abides in us, by the Spirit whom He has given us. 1 John 3:24
Click to expand...

Wait - But His commandment first and foremost is to believe on Him; however, no one can do so unless that faith has first been given them:

[Jhn 6:29 KJV]
29 Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.
[1Jo 3:23 KJV]

(you referenced 1 Jo 3:24, I added 1 Jo 3:23 for context)
23 And this is his commandment, That we should believe on the name of his Son Jesus Christ, and love one another, as he gave us commandment.
[1Jo 3:24 KJV]
24 And he that keepeth his commandments dwelleth in him, and he in him. And hereby we know that he abideth in us, by the Spirit which he hath given us.

JLB said:
We are under grace; under obligation to obey grace, the Spirit of grace, which is the Spirit of truth.
Click to expand...
If we're under an obligation to obey grace (a contradiction in terms), then it's not grace. Grace is given on the basis that its recipients are totally underserving/unworthy of it, unable to obey it, and usually want no part of it until they receive it. If we have to obey it, then it's a law , and if a law, obeying would be a work, but, no one is saved by works:

[Rom 4:4-5 KJV] 4 Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt.
5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.

(the "his faith" above, is Christ's faith which has been imputed)

JLB said:
Obeying the Lord is how we are saved and remain “in Him”.
Click to expand...

So, based upon what you've just said, we've come full circle back to your original statement which began our disagreement: If obeying the Lord is "how we are saved and remain "in Him"", then any requirement that demands that is actually a law (or it wouldn't be a requirement). I think that's the point jaybo was making earlier.
You said, "Please go back through my posts and copy and paste where I said I rely on works for eternal salvation."
Well, in effect, you are saying that in/by the above statement.
If you had said "we are saved and from/after that obey", I might have agreed with you, but, you've said it in the reverse.
 
rogerg said:
wondering,
Sorry but I'm having trouble understanding your post but I'm sure it's my fault.
So, to make this easy, if you agree, why don't we go through one point at a time to simplify/quicken the communication loop between us?
Click to expand...
Not your fault Roger.
I rushed through it.
I do agree that we should take one point at a time.

I had asked if you believe we are imputed with Adam's sin.

IOW, are we individually responsible for his disobedience and thus his sin,,, or do we just suffer the consequences of it?
 
wondering said:
I had asked if you believe we are imputed with Adam's sin.
Click to expand...
Hi wondering
No problem
No, IMHO, we are NOT imputed with Adam's sin. My belief is that Adam's and Eve's transgression brought law into existence for mankind (which, prior to that, no law of any kind existed), but, by which, judgment would then be levied upon all

[Rom 7:8 KJV] 8 But sin, taking occasion by the commandment, wrought in me all manner of concupiscence. For without the law sin [was] dead.
 
rogerg said:
No, IMHO, we are NOT imputed with Adam's sin.
Click to expand...
I disagree with you for a change.

  • Psalm 51:5 But I was born a sinner, yes, from the moment my mother conceived me.
  • Psalm 58:3 The ungodly are perverse and estranged from the womb; they go astray as soon as they are born, speaking lies.
  • John 3:6a That which is born of flesh is flesh;
  • Romans 5:12 Therefore, just as sin came into the world through one man, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men because all sinned— … For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners; (Romans 5:12-21)
  • 1 Corinthians 15:22 in Adam we all die
  • 1 Corinthians 15:45 So it is written [in Scripture], “The first man, Adam, became a living soul (an individual);” the last Adam (Christ) became a life-giving spirit [restoring the dead to life]. 46 However, the spiritual [the immortal life] is not first, but the physical [the mortal life]; then the spiritual. 47 The first man [Adam] is from the earth, earthy [made of dust]; the second Man [Christ, the Lord] is from heaven. 48 As is the earthly man [the man of dust], so are those who are of earth; and as is the heavenly [Man], so are those who are of heaven.
 
brightfame52 said:
Redemption from all iniquity !

Titus 2:14

14 Who gave himself for us, that he might redeem us from all iniquity, and purify [cleanse see Eph 5:26] unto himself a peculiar people, zealous of good works.

The Atonement of Christ has been successful, and has accomplished that what God intended.

It was for redemption from all iniquity [ to include unbelief] and purification from all sin and unrighteousness. For that was the Divine Purpose for which Christ gave Himself for His People [ church], in order that they should be Holy and blameless before God in Love, unto which cause God chose and predestinated them, that they should be conformed to the Holy Image of His Son, hence it was not possible for not one sin to be committed, which was outside of the counsel and purpose of God, and for which Christ did not give Himself for as an Offering, and make a full and perfect Atonement.
Click to expand...
Thank you, once again, for proving beyond the shadow of a doubt that calvinists believe that God created sin.
And since everything is for the glory of God...
then surely sin must be for the glory of God too.

You stated:
It was for redemption from all iniquity [ to include unbelief]

If unbelief is iniquity, which is worse than committing a sin,
and God picks who will believe and who will not,
Then it is God that is making those that do not believe commit iniquity.

But, somehow, in a mysterious way we mere humans cannot possibly understand....
God creates sin and makes us sin....
but He is not responsible for sin or our sinning.
WCF
Chapter 5.4

This does not mean, however, that God is implicated in humanity's sin. God does not commit any sin; the guilt belongs only to the sinner. Here it helps to remember a distinction that was made in section two--the distinction between God as the First Cause and all the other causes that operate within his world. The will of the sinner is one of the "second causes" that accomplishes God's purposes. We cannot blame God for what we do. In choosing to sin, each of us bears moral responsibility for our own actions.

None of this completely resolves the mystery, of course.

OF COURSE!
 
rogerg said:
Hi wondering
No problem
No, IMHO, we are NOT imputed with Adam's sin. My belief is that Adam's and Eve's transgression brought law into existence for mankind (which, prior to that, no law of any kind existed), but, by which, judgment would then be levied upon all

[Rom 7:8 KJV] 8 But sin, taking occasion by the commandment, wrought in me all manner of concupiscence. For without the law sin [was] dead.
Click to expand...
You're right and fastfredy is not right.
However, I've forgotten why we got into this.

Perhaps I was trying to show that we are responsible for only our sins, committed individually by each one of us.
And if this is so....then God does not bear the responsibility for our sinning.

I just replied to brightfame52 ... please see my post no. 131
There's a quote there from the WCF.
If only calvinism made more sense,,,,MAYBE I could respect it just a little,,,
but it makes no common sense and God has so much common sense that He did pass some of it onto us.

Augustine was wrong about the imputation of Adam's sin which brought the CC to baptize all babies born ASAP due to this new doctrine which he proposed after 400 years of Jesus' death.

Maybe he was wrong in changing his mind about free will and predestination too?
As a new Christian he believed we had a free will and he did not believe in predestination...
 
Fastfredy0 said:
I disagree with you for a change.

  • Psalm 51:5 But I was born a sinner, yes, from the moment my mother conceived me.
  • Psalm 58:3 The ungodly are perverse and estranged from the womb; they go astray as soon as they are born, speaking lies.
Click to expand...
No problem - and happy to get your point of view.

So, (and remember I can be dense), at first look I don't see how these verses apply to Adam's and Eve's transgression
in the garden. They seem to me to be the result of the existence of the law but I probably misunderstood
 
Fastfredy0 said:
I disagree with you for a change.

  • Psalm 51:5 But I was born a sinner, yes, from the moment my mother conceived me.
  • Psalm 58:3 The ungodly are perverse and estranged from the womb; they go astray as soon as they are born, speaking lies.
  • John 3:6a That which is born of flesh is flesh;
  • Romans 5:12 Therefore, just as sin came into the world through one man, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men because all sinned— … For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners; (Romans 5:12-21)
  • 1 Corinthians 15:22 in Adam we all die
  • 1 Corinthians 15:45 So it is written [in Scripture], “The first man, Adam, became a living soul (an individual);” the last Adam (Christ) became a life-giving spirit [restoring the dead to life]. 46 However, the spiritual [the immortal life] is not first, but the physical [the mortal life]; then the spiritual. 47 The first man [Adam] is from the earth, earthy [made of dust]; the second Man [Christ, the Lord] is from heaven. 48 As is the earthly man [the man of dust], so are those who are of earth; and as is the heavenly [Man], so are those who are of heaven.
Click to expand...
None of the above verses states that we are responsible for Adam's sin.
All are addressing the effects of his sin.


2 Corinthians 5:10
For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, so that each one may receive what is due for what he has done in the body, whether good or evil.

Ezekiel 18:20
The soul who sins shall die. The son shall not suffer for the iniquity of the father, nor the father suffer for the iniquity of the son. The righteousness of the righteous shall be upon himself, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon himself.

Luke 12:48
But the one who did not know, and did what deserved a beating, will receive a light beating. Everyone to whom much was given, of him much will be required, and from him to whom they entrusted much, they will demand the more.


The above verses speak to personal responsibility.
 
jaybo said:
It concerns me that so many people who identify as Christians don't understand the role of the Holy Spirit in our lives. Without the Holy Spirit a person needs an external control over their behavior. That is the function of the Old Testament law. When one has received the Holy Spirit -- born again, born from above -- then one has an internal guide to govern their behavior.

For example, take stealing. The Mosaic law commands people to not steal. There is the desire, but the law restrains the behavior. When governed by the Holy Spirit, there is no desire to steal. It's the opposite of wanting something for nothing, wanting to take from "your neighbor", greed, etc.
Click to expand...
jaybo,
We all understand this.
The point is that we STILL must not steal.

The difference between the Old Covenant (Mosaic Covenant) and the New C. is that we are not empowered to follow God's Laws....
before man was trying to follow the Mosaic Law on his own, and now we have The Helper by our side, or indwelling I should say.

When one loves their spouse, they endeavor to do what will make the spouse happy....
however, there still must be some rules they both need to follow in order to make the marriage function properly.
It's love that causes the outcome....but the rules are still there.

I think it's miraculous how we do not WANT to sin.
(although I'm not one to say that we never do).
 
wondering said:
I had asked if you believe we are imputed with Adam's sin.
Click to expand...
By the way, I think there is much more to your question about Adam's and Eve's transgression (and my reply) than we covered. We can explore further if you wish, but may not be appropriate for this thread and I'm sure it will generate tons of disagreement from everyone.
 
rogerg said:
No problem - and happy to get your point of view.

So, (and remember I can be dense), at first look I don't see how these verses apply to Adam's and Eve's transgression
in the garden. They seem to me to be the result of the existence of the law but I probably misunderstood
Click to expand...
Aside: You're so polite/humble. I should take lessons from you.

1 Corinthians 15:22 in Adam we all die, so also in Christ all will be made alive
Here there is a comparison of us die because Adam's sin is imputed to us as Christ's accomplishments are also imputed to Christians such that we "will be made alive". I know you don't think you did anything for our salvation so your sins have been taken away and you have be made 'alive' by imputation. This the verse saying "SO ALSO" implies the same method ... imputation.

Psalm 51:5 and 58:3 say we were born sinners. We have not broken any of God's commands/laws, yet we are "born sinners". Sinners by no other conceivable means other than imputation. (Imputation: the assignment of a value to something by inference from the value of the products or processes to which it contributes.)

https://www.gotquestions.org/imputed-sin.html discusses the subject.
 
wondering said:
Thank you, once again, for proving beyond the shadow of a doubt that calvinists believe that God created sin.
And since everything is for the glory of God...
then surely sin must be for the glory of God too.
Click to expand...
Hmmm, I didn't get that at all from brightfame52's reply. Unless I've misunderstood, I think he said in effect, that God provided the remedy. Please clarify how you came to that conclusion- thanks
 
rogerg said:
Wait - But His commandment first and foremost is to believe on Him; however, no one can do so unless that faith has first been given them:

[Jhn 6:29 KJV]
29 Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.
[1Jo 3:23 KJV]

(you referenced 1 Jo 3:24, I added 1 Jo 3:23 for context)
23 And this is his commandment, That we should believe on the name of his Son Jesus Christ, and love one another, as he gave us commandment.
[1Jo 3:24 KJV]
24 And he that keepeth his commandments dwelleth in him, and he in him. And hereby we know that he abideth in us, by the Spirit which he hath given us.


If we're under an obligation to obey grace (a contradiction in terms), then it's not grace. Grace is given on the basis that its recipients are totally underserving/unworthy of it, unable to obey it, and usually want no part of it until they receive it. If we have to obey it, then it's a law , and if a law, obeying would be a work, but, no one is saved by works:

[Rom 4:4-5 KJV] 4 Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt.
5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.

(the "his faith" above, is Christ's faith which has been imputed)



So, based upon what you've just said, we've come full circle back to your original statement which began our disagreement: If obeying the Lord is "how we are saved and remain "in Him"", then any requirement that demands that is actually a law (or it wouldn't be a requirement). I think that's the point jaybo was making earlier.
You said, "Please go back through my posts and copy and paste where I said I rely on works for eternal salvation."
Well, in effect, you are saying that in/by the above statement.
If you had said "we are saved and from/after that obey", I might have agreed with you, but, you've said it in the reverse.
Click to expand...
OK
We are saved and THEN we are required to obey.

Believing that God must give us faith is causing the misunderstanding here.
Believing that it is faith that saves and that if we have faith it is a work is causing the misunderstanding here.

The N.T. clearly teaches that faith is not a work.
Romans 10:17 states that faith comes by hearing the Word of God.
It tells us that to be saved we must believe that God exists and that we want to worship Him and follow His commandments.
We then have faith in God and believe that Jesus is His Son that has died for our sins.
We are saved BY GRACE, through the instrument of FAITH...and not of ourselves....we cannot save ourselves, only God can save us.
So when we come to have faith, we receive the free gift of salvation which is for all men that want it, and through the grace of God, we become saved.

We might say that by obeying God and believing we become saved through obedience.
It's a thin red line.
 
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