The Atonement: What did it REALLY Accomplish?

[GodsGrace]

Aside: You're so polite/humble. I should take lessons from you.

1 Corinthians 15:22 in Adam we all die, so also in Christ all will be made alive
Here there is a comparison of us die because Adam's sin is imputed to us as Christ's accomplishments are also imputed to Christians such that we "will be made alive". I know you don't think you did anything for our salvation so your sins have been taken away and you have be made 'alive' by imputation. This the verse saying "SO ALSO" implies the same method ... imputation.

Psalm 51:5 and 58:3 say we were born sinners. We have not broken any of God's commands/laws, yet we are "born sinners". Sinners by no other conceivable means other than imputation. (Imputation: the assignment of a value to something by inference from the value of the products or processes to which it contributes.)

https://www.gotquestions.org/imputed-sin.html discusses the subject.

For example,,,it would be polite of you to reply to my posts since I've done or said nothing to harm you...

BUT ANYWAY:

1 Cor 15:22 just states that because of Adam we all die. We were immortal before he sinned.
This does not state that we are IMPUTED with Adam's sin.
It also is addressin SPIRITUAL DEATH. In Adam we all died a spiritual death...In Christ our spirits return to the original state of friendship with God. It is comparing THIS...not imputation.

Psalm 51:5 DOES NOT state that we are born sinners. Study up on it,,,I can't get into this now. David's mother was in sin.

If we have not broken any commandment yet, as you state, and yet are born sinners....
then if a baby dies he dies a sinner? I hope you believe in infant baptism.

And perhaps your horizons could be expanded if you stopped using calvinist sites for all your information. (gotquestions).

 

[GodsGrace]

Hmmm, I didn't get that at all from brightfame52's reply. Unless I've misunderstood, I think he said in effect, that God provided the remedy. Please clarify how you came to that conclusion- thanks

I had to go back to the post anyway, so here it is....
from brightfame52 :

*************************************************
Redemption from all iniquity !

Titus 2:14

14 Who gave himself for us, that he might redeem us from all iniquity, and purify [cleanse see Eph 5:26] unto himself a peculiar people, zealous of good works.

The Atonement of Christ has been successful, and has accomplished that what God intended.

It was for redemption from all iniquity [ to include unbelief] and purification from all sin and unrighteousness. For that was the Divine Purpose for which Christ gave Himself for His People [ church], in order that they should be Holy and blameless before God in Love, unto which cause God chose and predestinated them, that they should be conformed to the Holy Image of His Son, hence it was not possible for not one sin to be committed, which was outside of the counsel and purpose of God, and for which Christ did not give Himself for as an Offering, and make a full and perfect Atonement.

*****************************************************

First of all, Christ did not redeem us from all iniquity...He redeemed us from SIN...He gave us back the opportunity to regain our relationship with God, which is different today than it was in the O.T.
He redeemed us....He bought us back. (which is what redeemed means).

Then Brightfame includes UNBELIEF as iniquity.
He states that unbelief is sinful.
He believes that God predestines everything.
If God predestines everything, then everything includes sin and evil.
But then I'll be told that, NO, God does not cause sin and man is personally responsible for
his own sins.
Calvinism changes the nature of God....
and then excuses have to be made for Him.....
the very God that they wish to glorify...
how is changing the loving, merciful and just nature of God glorifying Him?

I gave the reference from the Westminster Confession of Faith that confirms what I've said above.

 

[for_his_glory]

The verse link you quoted does not say atonement.

And not only that, but we also rejoice in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received the reconciliation.
Romans 5:11


Atonement is what the blood of bulls and goats did for the children of Israel. It ”covered” their sin, like pitch covers a roof.


The blood of Jesus removes or takes away our sin thus making a way for us to be reconciled to God; to be joined to Him as righteous.




JLB

In the KJV the word atonement is written. Rom 5:11 And not only so, but we also joy in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, by whom we have now received the atonement.

It's the peace of God through faith by God's free gift of grace to all who will believe and obey His commands that atonement is first made by the reconciliation back to God as we repent of our sin and through the redeeming power through Christ Jesus and His finished works on the cross we have then become His own through the Spiritual rebirth from above being filled with the Holy Spirit.

 

[rogerg]

Aside: You're so polite/humble. I should take lessons from you.

1 Corinthians 15:22 in Adam we all die, so also in Christ all will be made alive
Here there is a comparison of us die because Adam's sin is imputed to us as Christ's accomplishments are also imputed to Christians such that we "will be made alive". I know you don't think you did anything for our salvation so your sins have been taken away and you have be made 'alive' by imputation. This the verse saying "SO ALSO" implies the same method ... imputation.

Thanks for your kind comment.

Anyway, would it be logical to say that without law there could be no judgment? That is, without law, sin wouldn't exist because for sin and judgment to be recognized and levied, there would need to be standard to assess it by? Without law, that standard wouldn't exist. Now, and I know this is going to be controversial, what if Christ took away the law (any and all of it) from over the Elect and by so doing, wouldn't sin have been removed from them too?
[Rom 7:6 KJV]
6 But now we are delivered from the law, that being dead wherein we were held; that we should serve in newness of spirit, and not [in] the oldness of the letter.
[Rom 8:2 KJV]
2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.

[Col 2:14 KJV]
14 Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross;

Psalm 51:5 and 58:3 say we were born sinners. We have not broken any of God's commands/laws, yet we are "born sinners". Sinners by no other conceivable means other than imputation. (Imputation: the assignment of a value to something by inference from the value of the products or processes to which it contributes.)

Maybe, and good point, but consider:

[Rom 5:13 KJV] 13 (For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law.

It seems to me this verse tells us that separate and apart from Adam's and Eve's transgression, mankind in-toto has traits within ourselves, that when judged by spiritual law, would place us in violation of it. These traits were not unique to Adam and Eve nor propagated to mankind through them-- rather, we were all created with them.
Sin becomes sinful relative only to spiritual law.
That, I believe, is why God warned Adam and Eve not to eat of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil -- because only spiritual law can provide the knowledge of good and evil; that is, it provides distinction between what is good and what is evil - God gave fair warning to avoid that but they chose to ignore Him.
So, since "sin was in the world" before Adam's and Eve's transgression, their sin couldn't have been the cause of our sin, as sin was already in existence. Rather, spiritual law brought the sin (that we all have of ourselves) to light and to judgment.
There's still a lot more to say about this but I'll end it here.
I don't claim to have this all figured out- far from it and will probably have to make a lot of corrections and apologies later, but to some extent, the pieces seem to kinda fit (to me anyway)

Hope that make sense. I know it's a different way of looking at it and probably confusing

 

[rogerg]

Then Brightfame includes UNBELIEF as iniquity.
He states that unbelief is sinful.

Haven't we all been commanded to believe in Christ? If so, then not believing is sinful, right?

But then I'll be told that, NO, God does not cause sin and man is personally responsible for
his own sins.

I don't think God causes sin, I think the law causes sin.

Calvinism changes the nature of God....
and then excuses have to be made for Him.....
the very God that they wish to glorify...
how is changing the loving, merciful and just nature of God glorifying Him?

Sorry, you lost me a little on this one

 

[JLB]

Wait - But His commandment first and foremost is to believe on Him; however, no one can do so unless that faith has first been given them:

Believe carries the meaning of obey.

• Biblical believing is demonstrated by obedience.

If we believe the Gospel, then we must obey the Gospel.


But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Isaiah says, “LORD, who has believed our report?” Romans 10:16

Disobedience is Unbelief.

Believe and obey are used interchangeably throughput the New Testament.


Here are some examples:


He who believes in the Son has everlasting life; and he who does not believe the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him.”
John 3:36 NKJV


He who believes in the Son has eternal life; but he who does not obey the Son will not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him.”
John 3:36 NASB



Since therefore it remains that some must enter it, and those to whom it was first preached did not enter because of disobedience.
Hebrews 4:6 NKJV


Seeing therefore it remaineth that some must enter therein, and they to whom it was first preached entered not in because of unbelief:
Hebrews 4:6 KJV


Again, biblical believing of the Gospel means obeying the Gospel.


in flaming fire taking vengeance on those who do not know God, and on those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ.
2 Thessalonians 1:8



JLB

 

[Fastfredy0]

Subject: Was Adam's sin IMPUTED to all of mankind without exception?
(I assume we agree to this)

Anyway, would it be logical to say that without law there could be no judgment?

I suppose so (can't think why not). God makes the rules so whatever He says goes.
The "law" has to be defined. The law is defined as breaking any commandment of God IMO (if you define the law differently, we have to start over). Romans 1 says the law written on everyone's heart.
You need the law to condemn people. Adam broke the law and is judged and so are all his offspring by what is called IMPUTATION. This is the question at hand.

Now, and I know this is going to be controversial, what if Christ took away the law (any and all of it) from over the Elect and by so doing, wouldn't sin have been removed from them too?
[Rom 7:6 KJV]

God makes the rules. He didn't do it the way you proposed so the question is academic.

6 But now we are delivered from the law, that being dead wherein we were held; that we should serve in newness of spirit, and not [in] the oldness of the letter.
[Rom 8:2 KJV]
2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.

Yeah, we are free from the penalty of the law. We are still obliged to keep it.
Before we were freed from the law, we were condemned by it. We are talking about IMPUTATION OF ADAMS SIN ... this occurs prior to being freed from the law and therefore being freed from the law is not relevant to the subject at hand. The question at hand is: Was Adam's sin IMPUTED to all of mankind without exception?

[Rom 5:13 KJV] 13 (For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law.

I suppose the "law" started with Adam being told to not eat of tree of knowledge.
Again, Romans 1 says the law has always been written in everyone's heart so we are all without excuse. The definition of the "law" hasn't been agreed to in the conversation. I define it as "God's commands to humans". I use Romans 1 to show the law has always existed.

14 Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross;

Yeah, it blots out the sins of the elect. But in time God first condemned everyone (Rom 11:32). (not sure where you are going with this)

It seems to me this verse tells us that separate and apart from Adam's and Eve's transgression, mankind in-toto has traits within ourselves, that when judged by spiritual law, would place us in violation of it. These traits were not unique to Adam and Eve nor propagated to mankind through them-- rather, we were all created with them.
Sin becomes sinful relative only to spiritual law.

My argument in as simple logic as I can think of:
Premise 1: The fetus/new born is conceived in sin (Psalm 51:5, Psalm 58:3)
Premise 2: A fetus/new born has broken no command of God (the law)
Conclusion: Since the new born has broken no law yet is sinful I conclude the sin has another source. Romans 5:12-21 says the source is Adam and theologians use the term IMPUTED SIN to represent this concept.

My TWO questions to you

1. What is the CAUSE of everyone being conceived in sin? (I say God determined that Adam's sin would be IMPUTED to all his offspring without exception)
2. What law has a fetus committed? (I say NONE)

I think this is the crux of question: Was Adam's sin IMPUTED to all of mankind without exception?

That, I believe, is why God warned Adam and Eve not to eat of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil -- because only spiritual law can provide the knowledge of good and evil; that is, it provides distinction between what is good and what is evil - God gave fair warning to avoid that but they chose to ignore Him.

"Fair warning"? Sounds like 'free will'. "Free" from God? How can one be "free" from God? (we are going on a tangent here IMO)

So, since "sin was in the world" before Adam's and Eve's transgression, their sin couldn't have been the cause of our sin, as sin was already in existence.

I don't follow this logic and there is no scripture to back your conclusion up. I agree that sin existed in Satan before Adam. Satan's sin and that of fallen angels is irrelevant. In regards to relevancy, we are 'in Adam' and Adam's sin imputed to mankind. See Romans 5:12-21

Again, see my premises and conclusion and show which premise is incorrect and why?

I don't claim to have this all figured out

Join the club ... lol

Hope that make sense. I know it's a different way of looking at it and probably confusing

Yeah .. I didn't follow why the existence of sin before Adam has anything to do with this.

 

[rogerg]

Subject: Was Adam's sin IMPUTED to all of mankind without exception?
(I assume we agree to this)

Thanks Fastfredy, I'll ponder your reply and get back to you re your questions

 

[brightfame52]

Thank you, once again, for proving beyond the shadow of a doubt that calvinists believe that God created sin.
And since everything is for the glory of God...
then surely sin must be for the glory of God too.

You stated:
It was for redemption from all iniquity [ to include unbelief]

If unbelief is iniquity, which is worse than committing a sin,
and God picks who will believe and who will not,
Then it is God that is making those that do not believe commit iniquity.

But, somehow, in a mysterious way we mere humans cannot possibly understand....
God creates sin and makes us sin....
but He is not responsible for sin or our sinning.
WCF
Chapter 5.4

This does not mean, however, that God is implicated in humanity's sin. God does not commit any sin; the guilt belongs only to the sinner. Here it helps to remember a distinction that was made in section two--the distinction between God as the First Cause and all the other causes that operate within his world. The will of the sinner is one of the "second causes" that accomplishes God's purposes. We cannot blame God for what we do. In choosing to sin, each of us bears moral responsibility for our own actions.

None of this completely resolves the mystery, of course.

OF COURSE!

You have gone off on a tangent !

 

[JLB]

In the KJV the word atonement is written. Rom 5:11 And not only so, but we also joy in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, by whom we have now received the atonement.

The word is reconcilliation.

The blood of Jesus takes away our sin, so that we can become one spirit with the Lord: joined to Him.



JLB

 

[for_his_glory]

The word is reconcilliation.

The blood of Jesus takes away our sin, so that we can become one spirit with the Lord: joined to Him.



JLB

I agree, but was showing you the word "atonement" is in that verse in the KJV. I guess it's not in other versions, but yet it is by the grace of God through the blood sacrifice of Christ that we can be reconciled back to God by having faith in Christ. Ephesians 2:8,9.

 

[JLB]

I agree, but was showing you the word "atonement" is in that verse in the KJV.

Yes ma’am.

I know it is, but it appears only once.

 

[jaybo]

jaybo,
We all understand this.
The point is that we STILL must not steal.

The difference between the Old Covenant (Mosaic Covenant) and the New C. is that we are not empowered to follow God's Laws....
before man was trying to follow the Mosaic Law on his own, and now we have The Helper by our side, or indwelling I should say.

When one loves their spouse, they endeavor to do what will make the spouse happy....
however, there still must be some rules they both need to follow in order to make the marriage function properly.
It's love that causes the outcome....but the rules are still there.

I think it's miraculous how we do not WANT to sin.
(although I'm not one to say that we never do).

Slightly off-topic...

You wrote "When one loves their spouse, they endeavor to do what will make the spouse happy....
however, there still must be some rules they both need to follow in order to make the marriage function properly.
It's love that causes the outcome....but the rules are still there."

I have been married for 52 years and there are no rules that we need to follow in order to make the marriage function properly. Everything is motivated by love! There are nor rules, real or imagined, that make a marriage successful. Everything is motivated by love.

It's the exact same thing with the Holy Spirit! Once we have received the Holy Spirit there is no need for external rules, a.k.a., The Law. We are guided and motivated internally, eliminating an external control -- the law.

Maybe not so foo topic after all...

 

[Fastfredy0]

Everything is motivated by love!

What is the cause of love?

 

[rogerg]

I suppose so (can't think why not). God makes the rules so whatever He says goes.
The "law" has to be defined. The law is defined as breaking any commandment of God IMO (if you define the law differently, we have to start over). Romans 1 says the law written on everyone's heart.
You need the law to condemn people. Adam broke the law and is judged and so are all his offspring by what is called IMPUTATION. This is the question at hand.

Okay, I'm showing my ignorance here but what specific sin was imputed to mankind from/by Adam's and Eve's action?

 

[Fastfredy0]

Okay, I'm showing my ignorance here but what specific sin was imputed to mankind from/by Adam's and Eve's action?

I'll let the Bible speak for me in regards to imputed sin ... I inserted IMPUTED where I thought relevant
Romans 5:12-21
Romans 5:12
Therefore, just as sin came into the world through one man[Adam], and death through sin, so death spread to all people [no one being able to stop it or escape its power ...we as individuals did not CAUSE it; rather, death and the sin nature where IMPUTED to all men], because they all sinned [in Adam]. 13 Sin was [committed] in the world before the Law [was given], but sin is not charged [against anyone] when there is no law [against it]. 14 Yet death ruled [over mankind] from Adam to Moses [the Lawgiver], even over those [imputation] who had not sinned as Adam did. Adam is a type of Him (Christ) who was to come [but in reverse—Adam brought destruction [by imputation], Christ brought salvation [by imputation]].

15 But the free gift [of God] is not like the trespass [because the gift of grace overwhelms the fall of man]. For if many died by one man’s trespass [Adam’s sin imputed], much more [abundantly] did God’s grace and the gift [that comes] by the grace of the one Man, Jesus Christ, overflow to [imputed benefit] the many. 16 Nor is the gift [of grace] like that which came through the one who sinned. For on the one hand the judgment [following the sin] resulted from one trespass and brought condemnation, but on the other hand the free gift resulted from many trespasses and brought justification [the release from sin’s penalty for those who believe]. 17 For if by the trespass of the one (Adam), death reigned through the one (Adam)[by imputation], much more surely will those who receive the abundance of grace and the free gift of righteousness reign in [eternal] life through the One, Jesus Christ.

18 So then as through one trespass [Adam’s sin which is imputed to us] there resulted condemnation for all men [sin nature, we all die], even so through one act of righteousness there resulted [imputed] justification of life to all men. 19 For just as through one man’s disobedience [his failure to hear, his carelessness] the many were made sinners [by imputation], so through the obedience of the one Man the many will be made righteous and acceptable to God and brought into right standing with Him. 20 But the Law came to increase and expand [the awareness of] the trespass [by defining and unmasking sin]. But where sin increased, [God’s remarkable, gracious gift of] grace [His unmerited favor] has surpassed it and increased all the more, 21 so that, as sin reigned in death, so also grace would reign through righteousness which brings eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord. AMP

Further proof are the verses I referenced say we are born in sin. Sin is imputed to us we are even capable of breaking God law.

See https://www.gotquestions.org/imputed-sin.html

 

[JLB]

What is the CAUSE of everyone being conceived in sin? (

Adam’s sin.

I say God determined that Adam's sin would be IMPUTED to all his offspring without exception)

False! This ”belief” lends to the idea that God was the author of sin in mankind.

God determined than man would be fruitful and multiply, thus creating the ability for mankind to reproduce after its own kind.



Then God said, “Let Us make man in Our image, according to Our likeness; let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, over the birds of the air, and over the cattle, over all the earth and over every creeping thing that creeps on the earth.” So God created man in His own image; in the image of God He created him; male and female He created them. Then God blessed them, and God said to them, “Be fruitful and multiply; fill the earth and subdue it; have dominion over the fish of the sea, over the birds of the air, and over every living thing that moves on the earth.” Genesis 1:26-28




God’s will was for Adam and Eve to reproduce the image of God for which He blessed them.



JLB

 

[jaybo]

Adam’s sin.




False! This ”belief” lends to the idea that God was the author of sin in mankind.

God determined than man would be fruitful and multiply, thus creating the ability for mankind to reproduce after its own kind.



Then God said, “Let Us make man in Our image, according to Our likeness; let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, over the birds of the air, and over the cattle, over all the earth and over every creeping thing that creeps on the earth.” So God created man in His own image; in the image of God He created him; male and female He created them. Then God blessed them, and God said to them, “Be fruitful and multiply; fill the earth and subdue it; have dominion over the fish of the sea, over the birds of the air, and over every living thing that moves on the earth.” Genesis 1:26-28




God’s will was for Adam and Eve to reproduce the image of God for which He blessed them.



JLB

If this is the case then where did sin come from?

 

[GodsGrace]

Haven't we all been commanded to believe in Christ? If so, then not believing is sinful, right?

Not believing is more than sinful...
If we do not believe we are lost.
Whether or not the lost sin is irrelevant...one cannot be worse off than lost.

However, you're right. Not believing grieves the Holy Spirit.
Not believing is sin and to remove that sin the only way is to accept the gospel and become a believer.
John 3:18
Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only Son of God.

Hebrews 11:6
And without faith it is impossible to please Him, for whoever would draw near to God must believe that he exists and that he rewards those who seek him.


By the grace of God we are saved through our faith.
We receive our faith when we seek God.
Those who seek God have already replied to God's revelation of Himself with YES.
Ephesians 2:8-9
Romans 5:1
1Therefore, having been justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ,

I don't think God causes sin, I think the law causes sin.

The law makes us aware of our sin.
Romans 7:7
What then shall we say? That the law is sin? By no means! Yet if it had not been for the law, I would not have known sin. For I would not have known what it is to covet if the law had not said, “You shall not covet.”

Man has sinned from Adam but God did not impute sins to persons because there was not yet any law...they were not responsible for any of their own sins,,,,but death came upon them as an effect of the sin of Adam.
Romans 5:12-13
13for until the Law sin was in the world, but sin is not imputed when there is no law.
14Nevertheless death reigned from Adam until Moses, even over those who had not sinned in the likeness of the offense of Adam,,,

Sorry, you lost me a little on this one

I was quoting the WCF because you say that faith must be given to us by God.
This is a calvinistic belief (which is not correct).
Since you spoke like a calvinist, I gave you an answer as one.

You stated that you didn't understand my reply to brightfame52 when he stated that unbelief is a sin.
Since calvinists believe God predestines EVERYTHING, then they must by necessity also have to believe that
God causes sin and evil.

But then they flip and say that God does not cause sin and evil (even though He predestines EVERYTHING).
This is not logical and I was just commenting on this.

Basically, I was answering to your query about my reply to Brightfame.

 

[GodsGrace]

You have gone off on a tangent !

I know.
When presented with facts...it's difficult for you to reply.
Other calvinists have acted in this way.

You are unable to provide sense to theories that make no sense.

It would be nice if you replied to my post.
What about it do you not agree with?
Could you show your disagreement from scripture, or even the WCF
or even Calvin's writings?