The Atonement: What did it REALLY Accomplish?

[GodsGrace]

Thanks for your kind comment.

Anyway, would it be logical to say that without law there could be no judgment? That is, without law, sin wouldn't exist because for sin and judgment to be recognized and levied, there would need to be standard to assess it by? Without law, that standard wouldn't exist. Now, and I know this is going to be controversial, what if Christ took away the law (any and all of it) from over the Elect and by so doing, wouldn't sin have been removed from them too?
[Rom 7:6 KJV]
6 But now we are delivered from the law, that being dead wherein we were held; that we should serve in newness of spirit, and not [in] the oldness of the letter.
[Rom 8:2 KJV]
2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.

[Col 2:14 KJV]
14 Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross;

The above is for Fastfredy0 and you're absolutely right in your statements.

But sin is not removed from us because we are under grace and no longer under Law....
This is why Jesus said to confess our sins to one another and why He forgave the sins of the paralytic man.
(because forgiveness of sins is necessary)
Matthew 9:1-8

Jesus bought us back from satan.
He paid the price.
He paid the ransom.
We are freed from the grip of sin.
Romans 8:3
3For what the Law could not do, weak as it was through the flesh, God did: sending His own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh and as an offering for sin, He condemned sin in the flesh,

We are under the New Covenant.
We are under grace.

The Old Covenant was not effective....
persons under the Law were burdened by the Law...
Jesus tells us that God's commandments are not burdensome...
The Law of Moses was burdensome

Maybe, and good point, but consider:

[Rom 5:13 KJV] 13 (For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law.

It seems to me this verse tells us that separate and apart from Adam's and Eve's transgression, mankind in-toto has traits within ourselves, that when judged by spiritual law, would place us in violation of it. These traits were not unique to Adam and Eve nor propagated to mankind through them-- rather, we were all created with them.

This is not taught in the story of Adam and Eve.
Adam and Eve were created with qualities we no longer have because of the transgression of Adam.
Originally man was created to be:
immortal
have infused knowledge
absence of the sinful nature of man

When Adam disobeyed God he lost these gifts for all of mankind.

It is through Adam's "seed" that this sinful nature, mortality, and absence of infused knowledge, were passed on to every human being.

Sin becomes sinful relative only to spiritual law.
That, I believe, is why God warned Adam and Eve not to eat of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil -- because only spiritual law can provide the knowledge of good and evil; that is, it provides distinction between what is good and what is evil - God gave fair warning to avoid that but they chose to ignore Him.

Agreed.
Before Adam and Eve knew only the good....
now they know, and have unleashed, also the bad/evil into the world.

So, since "sin was in the world" before Adam's and Eve's transgression, their sin couldn't have been the cause of our sin, as sin was already in existence. Rather, spiritual law brought the sin (that we all have of ourselves) to light and to judgment.
There's still a lot more to say about this but I'll end it here.

You say sin was in the world before A & E.
Who was there before Adam and Eve?
They were the first humans.

I don't claim to have this all figured out- far from it and will probably have to make a lot of corrections and apologies later, but to some extent, the pieces seem to kinda fit (to me anyway)

Hope that make sense. I know it's a different way of looking at it and probably confusing

LOL
No apologies necessary later on.

 

[GodsGrace]

I'll let the Bible speak for me in regards to imputed sin ... I inserted IMPUTED where I thought relevant
Romans 5:12-21
Romans 5:12
Therefore, just as sin came into the world through one man[Adam], and death through sin, so death spread to all people [no one being able to stop it or escape its power ...we as individuals did not CAUSE it; rather, death and the sin nature where IMPUTED to all men], because they all sinned [in Adam]. 13 Sin was [committed] in the world before the Law [was given], but sin is not charged [against anyone] when there is no law [against it]. 14 Yet death ruled [over mankind] from Adam to Moses [the Lawgiver], even over those [imputation] who had not sinned as Adam did. Adam is a type of Him (Christ) who was to come [but in reverse—Adam brought destruction [by imputation], Christ brought salvation [by imputation]].

15 But the free gift [of God] is not like the trespass [because the gift of grace overwhelms the fall of man]. For if many died by one man’s trespass [Adam’s sin imputed], much more [abundantly] did God’s grace and the gift [that comes] by the grace of the one Man, Jesus Christ, overflow to [imputed benefit] the many. 16 Nor is the gift [of grace] like that which came through the one who sinned. For on the one hand the judgment [following the sin] resulted from one trespass and brought condemnation, but on the other hand the free gift resulted from many trespasses and brought justification [the release from sin’s penalty for those who believe]. 17 For if by the trespass of the one (Adam), death reigned through the one (Adam)[by imputation], much more surely will those who receive the abundance of grace and the free gift of righteousness reign in [eternal] life through the One, Jesus Christ.

18 So then as through one trespass [Adam’s sin which is imputed to us] there resulted condemnation for all men [sin nature, we all die], even so through one act of righteousness there resulted [imputed] justification of life to all men. 19 For just as through one man’s disobedience [his failure to hear, his carelessness] the many were made sinners [by imputation], so through the obedience of the one Man the many will be made righteous and acceptable to God and brought into right standing with Him. 20 But the Law came to increase and expand [the awareness of] the trespass [by defining and unmasking sin]. But where sin increased, [God’s remarkable, gracious gift of] grace [His unmerited favor] has surpassed it and increased all the more, 21 so that, as sin reigned in death, so also grace would reign through righteousness which brings eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord. AMP

Further proof are the verses I referenced say we are born in sin. Sin is imputed to us we are even capable of breaking God law.

See https://www.gotquestions.org/imputed-sin.html

No one is imputed with the sin of anyone else.
Including Adam and Eve's sin.

And Psalm 51:5 does not mean what you understand it to mean.

 

[GodsGrace]

Slightly off-topic...

You wrote "When one loves their spouse, they endeavor to do what will make the spouse happy....
however, there still must be some rules they both need to follow in order to make the marriage function properly.
It's love that causes the outcome....but the rules are still there."

I have been married for 52 years and there are no rules that we need to follow in order to make the marriage function properly. Everything is motivated by love! There are nor rules, real or imagined, that make a marriage successful. Everything is motivated by love.

It's the exact same thing with the Holy Spirit! Once we have received the Holy Spirit there is no need for external rules, a.k.a., The Law. We are guided and motivated internally, eliminating an external control -- the law.

Maybe not so foo topic after all...

God said He would write the law in our hearts, in the New Covenant.
Jeremiah 31:31-33
31“Behold, days are coming,” declares the LORD, “when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah,
32not like the covenant which I made with their fathers in the day I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt, My covenant which they broke, although I was a husband to them,” declares the LORD.
33“But this is the covenant which I will make with the house of Israel after those days,” declares the LORD, “I will put My law within them and on their heart I will write it; and I will be their God, and they shall be My people.

God did said He would remove the external law,
but He did not say He would remove His commandments, but place them in our hearts.
They remain, and they will be kept by grace.
Matthew 5:19-20
19“Whoever then annuls one of the least of these commandments, and teaches others to do the same, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven; but whoever keeps and teaches them, he shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.
20“For I say to you that unless your righteousness surpasses that of the scribes and Pharisees, you will not enter the kingdom of heaven.

So, I can agree with your belief to some extent.
But many do not know what the Commandments may be - children for example.
We also cannot trust our conscience because it has been contaminated by the world system...
we can only trust it when we have learned what is expected from us by God.
How we transform our mind is by learning the word of God.
Romans 12:2
2And do not be conformed to this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind, so that you may prove what the will of God is, that which is good and acceptable and perfect.

Paul tells us that it's good to know the word of God.
and Jesus spent His time teaching the Apostles what they were supposed to pass on to us.
Paul wrote in each of his epistles what is expected of believers.

If learning was not necessary, there would be no need of Sunday School
or Adult Christian Education....

(not everyone is as lucky as you are)

 

[GodsGrace]

Subject: Was Adam's sin IMPUTED to all of mankind without exception?
(I assume we agree to this)


I suppose so (can't think why not). God makes the rules so whatever He says goes.
The "law" has to be defined. The law is defined as breaking any commandment of God IMO (if you define the law differently, we have to start over). Romans 1 says the law written on everyone's heart.
You need the law to condemn people. Adam broke the law and is judged and so are all his offspring by what is called IMPUTATION. This is the question at hand.


God makes the rules. He didn't do it the way you proposed so the question is academic.


Yeah, we are free from the penalty of the law. We are still obliged to keep it.
Before we were freed from the law, we were condemned by it. We are talking about IMPUTATION OF ADAMS SIN ... this occurs prior to being freed from the law and therefore being freed from the law is not relevant to the subject at hand. The question at hand is: Was Adam's sin IMPUTED to all of mankind without exception?



I suppose the "law" started with Adam being told to not eat of tree of knowledge.
Again, Romans 1 says the law has always been written in everyone's heart so we are all without excuse. The definition of the "law" hasn't been agreed to in the conversation. I define it as "God's commands to humans". I use Romans 1 to show the law has always existed.



Yeah, it blots out the sins of the elect. But in time God first condemned everyone (Rom 11:32). (not sure where you are going with this)


My argument in as simple logic as I can think of:
Premise 1: The fetus/new born is conceived in sin (Psalm 51:5, Psalm 58:3)
Premise 2: A fetus/new born has broken no command of God (the law)
Conclusion: Since the new born has broken no law yet is sinful I conclude the sin has another source. Romans 5:12-21 says the source is Adam and theologians use the term IMPUTED SIN to represent this concept.

My TWO questions to you

1. What is the CAUSE of everyone being conceived in sin? (I say God determined that Adam's sin would be IMPUTED to all his offspring without exception)
2. What law has a fetus committed? (I say NONE)

I think this is the crux of question: Was Adam's sin IMPUTED to all of mankind without exception?


"Fair warning"? Sounds like 'free will'. "Free" from God? How can one be "free" from God? (we are going on a tangent here IMO)



I don't follow this logic and there is no scripture to back your conclusion up. I agree that sin existed in Satan before Adam. Satan's sin and that of fallen angels is irrelevant. In regards to relevancy, we are 'in Adam' and Adam's sin imputed to mankind. See Romans 5:12-21

Again, see my premises and conclusion and show which premise is incorrect and why?


Join the club ... lol


Yeah .. I didn't follow why the existence of sin before Adam has anything to do with this.

Perhaps you could give us your understanding of what imputed sin is?

 

[rogerg]

The above is for @Fastfredy0 and you're absolutely right in your statements.

But sin is not removed from us because we are under grace and no longer under Law....
This is why Jesus said to confess our sins to one another and why He forgave the sins of the paralytic man.
(because forgiveness of sins is necessary)
Matthew 9:1-8

Oops did I send it to you instead of fastfredy? Sorry if I did - sorry fastfredy - my bad

"But sin is not removed from us because we are under grace and no longer under Law..."

[Eph 2:8 KJV] 8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: [it is] the gift of God:

Regarding Mat 9:8, I believe regarding the paralytic man, Jesus as God could make him saved whenever He chose to. But... that paralytic man had first to have been made one of the God's Elect: elected > saved > born again

You say sin was in the world before A & E.
Who was there before Adam and Eve?
They were the first humans.

Didn't I say something along the lines of sin wasn't assessed to Adam and Eve until they brought forth the law by eating of the tree?

[Rom 5:13 KJV] 13 (For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law.

This is not taught in the story of Adam and Eve.
Adam and Eve were created with qualities we no longer have because of the transgression of Adam.
Originally man was created to be:
immortal
have infused knowledge
absence of the sinful nature of man

When Adam disobeyed God he lost these gifts for all of mankind.

It is through Adam's "seed" that this sinful nature, mortality, and absence of infused knowledge, were passed on to every human being.

Not sure about your "qualities" statement. I didn't find that in the Bible.
My thought is that until the law (see romans 5:13 above), came into being by A & E, they weren't under the law
of sin and death - but that's what their eating of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil caused - it brought forth the law which then convicted them along everyone else

[Rom 8:2 KJV] 2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.

 

[JLB]

If this is the case then where did sin come from?

Disobedience to God, even in our heart is sin.

People and angels who disobey God is where sin came from.

 

[GodsGrace]

brightfame52

In post no. 114 you stated this:

"It was for redemption from all iniquity [ to include unbelief]"


To which I replied:

If unbelief is iniquity, which is worse than committing a sin,
and God picks who will believe and who will not,
Then it is God that is making those that do not believe commit iniquity.

But, somehow, in a mysterious way we mere humans cannot possibly understand....
God creates sin and makes us sin....
but He is not responsible for sin or our sinning.
WCF
Chapter 5.4

This does not mean, however, that God is implicated in humanity's sin. God does not commit any sin; the guilt belongs only to the sinner. Here it helps to remember a distinction that was made in section two--the distinction between God as the First Cause and all the other causes that operate within his world. The will of the sinner is one of the "second causes" that accomplishes God's purposes. We cannot blame God for what we do. In choosing to sin, each of us bears moral responsibility for our own actions.

None of this completely resolves the mystery, of course.


If you're going to make incorrect statements....
you should reply to those (me) that are holding you up to your belief system.
No tangent brightfame... I've stated facts.

You cannot reply?
Perhaps you should rethink your theology?

 

[GodsGrace]

Oops did I send it to you instead of fastfredy? Sorry if I did - sorry fastfredy - my bad

No...you sent to fredy...but I wished to reply.

"But sin is not removed from us because we are under grace and no longer under Law..."

[Eph 2:8 KJV] 8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: [it is] the gift of God:

I hope you understand that in Ephesians 2:8 FAITH is not the gift...
SALVATION is the gift.

I find it difficult to speak to you...don't know why.
You seem to not reply to my statements.

YOU said in your post that Jesus' death removed sinning....please reread your post.
His death did NOT take away sinning,,,this is why confession is necessary.

You replied to this by posting Ephesians 2:8 ?????

Regarding Mat 9:8, I believe regarding the paralytic man, Jesus as God could make him saved whenever He chose to. But... that paralytic man had first to have been made one of the God's Elect: elected > saved > born again

Regarding the paralytic man, I was showing how Jesus had to forgive him.
I was showing how sins must be forgiven....Jesus said to ask for forgiveness...
John 20:23

Now you say that the paralytic man had to be made one of God's elect FIRST
THEN saved
THEN born again.

Could you please expound on that?
Are you saying one has to be saved....
before he can be born again?

So, he has to be born again
before he can be born again?

 

[GodsGrace]

Didn't I say something along the lines of sin wasn't assessed to Adam and Eve until they brought forth the law by eating of the tree?

[Rom 5:13 KJV] 13 (For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law.

The Law began with Moses.
It's found in the first 5 books of the O.T.
The Pentateuch.
Or, The Torah.

Not sure about your "qualities" statement. I didn't find that in the Bible.
My thought is that until the law (see romans 5:13 above), came into being by A & E, they weren't under the law
of sin and death - but that's what their eating of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil caused - it brought forth the law which then convicted them along everyone else

[Rom 8:2 KJV] 2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.

Adam and Eve had qualities that we don't have because the fall caused them to be lost.
They are not specifically listed in the book of Genesis, but they had them nonetheless.

Were Adam and Eve created to be immortal? IMMORTALITY
Did they have an intimate relationship with God or did they have to be taught about Him and the world? INFUSED KNOWLEDGE
Were they created with a sinful nature or did they acquire one after disobeying God? ABSENCE OF THE SIN NATURE

 

[rogerg]

No...you sent to fredy...but I wished to reply.

Okay good - I thought that I'm getting senile, but for a second was afraid the process might be accelerating. Glad you replied.

I hope you understand that in Ephesians 2:8 FAITH is not the gift...
SALVATION is the gift.

I find it difficult to speak to you...don't know why.
You seem to not reply to my statements.

YOU said in your post that Jesus' death removed sinning....please reread your post.
His death did NOT take away sinning,,,this is why confession is necessary.

You replied to this by posting Ephesians 2:8 ?????

Yes I understand that. I believe you said at some point that we aren't saved by grace. I was trying to point out that we are.

On being difficult to communicate with: I think that we just see things totally differently -- we come from perspectives that are very difficult if not impossible to reconcile.

On my not replying, I think we'd do better if we kept the size down to one or two point per iteration until we either agree or agree to disagree on the particular issue in view, then, move on to the next one.

YOU said in your post that Jesus' death removed sinning....please reread your post.
His death did NOT take away sinning,,,this is why confession is necessary.

You replied to this by posting Ephesians 2:8 ?????

Did I say Jesus's death or Jesus's offering?

You: "But sin is not removed from us because we are under grace and no longer under Law..."

Me: "[Eph 2:8 KJV] 8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: [it is] the gift of God:"

Once someone becomes saved through grace, their sin is gone:
[Heb 7:23-25 KJV]
23 And they truly were many priests, because they were not suffered to continue by reason of death:
24 But this [man], because he continueth ever, hath an unchangeable priesthood.
25 Wherefore he is able also to save them to the uttermost that come unto God by him, seeing he ever liveth to make intercession for them.

Should we believe that we have to do with removing sin in order to be saved, we remain under the law, We cannot be saved by obedience to, or works of law.

Regarding the paralytic man, I was showing how Jesus had to forgive him.
I was showing how sins must be forgiven....Jesus said to ask for forgiveness...
John 20:23

Now you say that the paralytic man had to be made one of God's elect FIRST
THEN saved
THEN born again.

Could you please expound on that?
Are you saying one has to be saved....
before he can be born again?

So, he has to be born again
before he can be born again?

[Jhn 20:23 KJV] 23 Whose soever sins ye remit, they are remitted unto them; [and] whose soever [sins] ye retain, they are retained.

So then you're saying that after the last apostle died, no one else's sins could be forgiven?

I don't understand what you mean by "has to be born again to be born again"
Here is the process as I understand it:
God elected (chose) certain people (but not everyone) from the foundation of the world to be saved. Then, at a point in time of God's choosing, they actually become saved spiritually- their sin forgiven them. Either in conjunction with or after this, they are born again -- given a renewed mind, begin to have and grow in an understanding of things spiritual, exhibit the characteristics of a Christian(not a complete list), which they continue with and grow in throughout the remainder of their lives... but God does it all

YOU said in your post that Jesus' death removed sinning....please reread your post.
His death did NOT take away sinning,,,this is why confession is necessary.

Did I say Jesus's death, or did I say Jesus's offering (which Jesus's death was a part of)?
He takes those He saves out from under the law of sin and death. Without being under the jurisdiction of that law, no sin. It is, after all, the law of sin. What do you think that verse means?

[Rom 8:2 KJV] 2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.

 

[rogerg]

The Law began with Moses.
It's found in the first 5 books of the O.T.
The Pentateuch.
Or, The Torah.

First five books ? Genesis one of those ?

Adam and Eve had qualities that we don't have because the fall caused them to be lost.
They are not specifically listed in the book of Genesis, but they had them nonetheless.

Were Adam and Eve created to be immortal? IMMORTALITY
Did they have an intimate relationship with God or did they have to be taught about Him and the world? INFUSED KNOWLEDGE
Were they created with a sinful nature or did they acquire one after disobeying God? ABSENCE OF THE SIN NATURE

Don't understand your point

 

[GodsGrace]

Okay good - I thought that I'm getting senile, but for a second was afraid the process might be accelerating. Glad you replied.

It's not accelerating!

Yes I understand that. I believe you said at some point that we aren't saved by grace. I was trying to point out that we are.

I NEVER say we are not saved by grace.
We are saved by God's grace no matter what denomination we are.
I believe God reveals Himself to all mankind as is stated in
Romans 1:18-20
18For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men who suppress the truth in unrighteousness,
19because that which is known about God is evident within them; for God made it evident to them.
20For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes, His eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly seen, being understood through what has been made, so that they are without excuse.

God has always revealed Himself to mankind...there was a time before the gospel was written and before the O.T. was written.
Those persons could know that God existed through His invisible attributes, through what God made...
For this reason everyone will be without excuse at judgement time.

When God reveals Himself, it is up to us to either accept His offer of believing in Him, or not accepting it.
Even when we accept it, it is through God's grace that He saves us.
We are saved BY GRACE....
THROUGH FAITH......our faith in Him.
Ephesians 2:8

On being difficult to communicate with: I think that we just see things totally differently -- we come from perspectives that are very difficult if not impossible to reconcile.

On my not replying, I think we'd do better if we kept the size down to one or two point per iteration until we either agree or agree to disagree on the particular issue in view, then, move on to the next one.

I've already started to break down our conversation if you've noticed.
I am not of the reformed faith and although we will agree on many things since we're both Christian, we will not agree on some things.
However, I think it's good to discuss our points of view.

Did I say Jesus's death or Jesus's offering?

What is the difference?
Jesus DEATH IS His OFFERING.
Otherwise, what would His offering be?

You: "But sin is not removed from us because we are under grace and no longer under Law..."

Me: "[Eph 2:8 KJV] 8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: [it is] the gift of God:"

Once someone becomes saved through grace, their sin is gone:
[Heb 7:23-25 KJV]
23 And they truly were many priests, because they were not suffered to continue by reason of death:
24 But this [man], because he continueth ever, hath an unchangeable priesthood.
25 Wherefore he is able also to save them to the uttermost that come unto God by him, seeing he ever liveth to make intercession for them.

Do you mean their SIN is gone or their SINS are gone?
Sin is the flesh, the sin nature....this is never totally gone but is put under submission to the Holy Spirit.
Our sin nature will be gone when we get our glorified bodies, or, I should say when we die and go to be with God.
SIN is what we inherited from Adam and Eve....we inherited the sin they allowed into the world....the sin nature...or flesh, some call it concupisence.

Because of the above SINS are also not totally gone.
Don't we continue to sin after we're born again?
Because we continue to sin, we are required to confess that sin and Jesus, our intercessor, will forgive them.
Romans 8:34 and Hebrews 7:25 and more...
Who is to condemn? Christ Jesus is the one who died—more than that, who was raised—who is at the right hand of God, who indeed is interceding for us.

Should we believe that we have to do with removing sin in order to be saved, we remain under the law, We cannot be saved by obedience to, or works of law.

We are not saved by doing good works.
We are saved by God's grace and our faith.
We come to have faith by believing in God.
Romans 10:17
Faith comes by hearing the word of God.
And by believing that word and accepting His forgiveness and His salvation.

[Jhn 20:23 KJV] 23 Whose soever sins ye remit, they are remitted unto them; [and] whose soever [sins] ye retain, they are retained.

So then you're saying that after the last apostle died, no one else's sins could be forgiven?

No, I'm not saying this but it's a totally different topic.
It has to do with joining the church...let's skip it for now, as you've requested that we stick to the topic.


will finish after dinner....

 

[rogerg]

When God reveals Himself, it is up to us to either accept His offer of believing in Him, or not accepting it.
Even when we accept it, it is through God's grace that He saves us.
We are saved BY GRACE....
THROUGH FAITH......our faith in Him.

If it is faith that is generated by ourselves, then it can't be by grace. Grace stands alone and is all-inclusive.
We are given faith from that grace through Christ's faithfulness in accordance with the Father's will

When God reveals Himself, it is up to us to either accept His offer of believing in Him, or not accepting it.
Even when we accept it, it is through God's grace that He saves us.
We are saved BY GRACE....
THROUGH FAITH......our faith in Him.

Faith is a by-product, not a cause. Were it to be left to us to "accept", no one would, Let me post this again:
[2Co 4:4 KJV] 4 In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.

Before becoming born again we all were of the "them which believe not" group. So, it is IMPOSSIBLE for us to believe on our own yet some eventually do. Therefore something within the recipient must have been changed to un-blind their mind in order for the "glorious gospel of Christ" to "shine unto them".

What is the difference?
Jesus DEATH IS His OFFERING.
Otherwise, what would His offering be?

Well, this could lead into another very controversial topic but, it is my understanding that Christ's offering consisted of
the following :
1) Christ, as Lamb of God sacrificed in Heaven in a manner similar to the OT Jewish slaying of the lamb. That is, its body and blood was used for heavenly sacrifice
2) Christ, as God-man, on this Earth
3) Christ as High Priest, in Heaven
4) Christ solely as a man, on the cross, forsaken of God.
5) Christ (in his soul essence) as a man but forsaken of God, in Hell.
6)Christ, (in His soul essence) as both man and God becoming the eternal mediator, in Heaven
7)Christ, as a heavenly testator dying to, bequeath the new covenant to His heirs.
A full explanation of each would be very lengthy so I decided to stop with these.

Do you mean their SIN is gone or their SINS are gone?
Sin is the flesh, the sin nature....this is never totally gone but is put under submission to the Holy Spirit.
Our sin nature will be gone when we get our glorified bodies, or, I should say when we die and go to be with God.
SIN is what we inherited from Adam and Eve....we inherited the sin they allowed into the world....the sin nature...or flesh, some call it concupisence.

Sins I guess. The sins plural because we all are guilty of the law of sin and death

Sin is the flesh, the sin nature....this is never totally gone but is put under submission to the Holy Spirit.

Guess it depends upon which sin you're thinking of when you say that. If its sin caused from the law of sin and death, then when/if one becomes truly saved, they will be removed from that law, and will never fall prey to that sin again because their eyes have been opened (so to speak).
If they do, it would mean they weren't really saved.

Because of the above SINS are also not totally gone.
Don't we continue to sin after we're born again?
Because we continue to sin, we are required to confess that sin and Jesus, our intercessor, will forgive them.

I don't think we do in the eternal spiritual sense which is really what matters regarding salvation. We it is in our earthly nature to violate earthly laws, but I think those have more to do with a standard of behavior that God want's us to follow, which we all fall short of achieving, but, which doesn't affect the state of our eternal salvation.

Because we continue to sin, we are required to confess that sin and Jesus, our intercessor, will forgive them.

No. Because by so doing is there a remembrance of sin. If Christ removed sin, then we should no longer remember it. In the below verses, it talks about sacrifices, but the logic holds true for any remembrance of sin.
By remembering it, we negate Christ's offering because we are in effect saying His sacrifice wasn't sufficient. If you think about it though, a confession in a sense is an offering of itself.

[Heb 10:1 KJV] 1 For the law having a shadow of good things to come, [and] not the very image of the things, can never with those sacrifices which they offered year by year continually make the comers thereunto perfect.
[Heb 10:2 KJV] 2 For then would they not have ceased to be offered? because that the worshippers once purged should have had no more conscience of sins.
[Heb 10:3 KJV] 3 But in those [sacrifices there is] a remembrance again [made] of sins every year.

We are saved by God's grace and our faith.

Again, if our faith plays any part in acquiring salvation, then it can't be by grace. Grace cannot be shared by any other thing.

Faith comes by hearing the word of God.

I think the "hearing" that is in view is not physical hearing, but spiritual hearing. Spiritual hearing has to be given to us as a gift from God just as "seeing" is spiritual seeing and a gift.

 

[Fastfredy0]

I think I agree with everything you said except your response to:
Because we continue to sin, we are required to confess that sin and Jesus, our intercessor, will forgive them.

No. Because by so doing is there a remembrance of sin. If Christ removed sin, then we should no longer remember it.

Are you saying you don't mentally remember sins since becoming a Christian?
Are you saying you don't sin any more and therefore don't have to confess? If so ,why does Paul say we should confess our sins?

 

[rogerg]

I think I agree with everything you said except your response to:
Because we continue to sin, we are required to confess that sin and Jesus, our intercessor, will forgive them.

Are you saying you don't mentally remember sins since becoming a Christian?
Are you saying you don't sin any more and therefore don't have to confess? If so ,why does Paul say we should confess our sins?

Regarding confession, the term can cover a lot of ground so it depends upon how one means it. If someone is given, and comes to a true faith in Christ, I believe their confession will be just that - a statement of the realization of Christ .... but, that doesn't mean doing so has any spiritual efficacy. I think instead it is a statement of the realization of Christ as Savior and of grace - recognition, not causation.

Not saying we don't mentally remember, I'm saying (if I can think of a good way to state it), that we no longer
find efficacy in it and therefore, stop considering it as being valid. Bad example: if something ends, it leaves the our conscious thoughts, especially if we realize it has been shown as no longer appropriate with no usefulness or validity to it - it's remembrance falls by the wayside.

In a salvation sense, I'd have to say that once saved I don't think that we do sin. Again, for sin to be assessed, there has to be a law that identifies its violation and what the penalty is. In my opinion, that law is the law of sin and death. When someone is taken from under that law by God and moved to under the law of the spirit of life in Christ, the law of sin and death is no longer applicable in any sense, and hence, it ceases to be in effect and sin is removed.

[1Jo 3:9 KJV] 9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.

I'm not sure I've stated everything in the best possible way but I'm hoping you can get the idea

 

[Fastfredy0]

In a salvation sense, I'd have to say that once saved I don't think that we do sin.

"In a salvation sense", hmmm, that is confusing for me ... I think you are saying Christians are not accountable for sin in the sense that we will not go to the Lake of Fire as opposed to the literal sense that Christians can't sin.


Re: Because we continue to sin, we are required to confess that sin and Jesus, our intercessor, will forgive them.

Regarding confession, the term can cover a lot of ground so it depends upon how one means it. If someone is given, and comes to a true faith in Christ, I believe their confession will be just that - a statement of the realization of Christ .... but, that doesn't mean doing so has any spiritual efficacy. I think instead it is a statement of the realization of Christ as Savior and of grace - recognition, not causation.

So Confession of sin to the intercessor for forgiveness is not efficacious (the ability to produce a desired or intended result) which means Paul is telling us to do something that is a waste of time so to speak. Aside: Admittedly, our sins (past and future) are forgiven even if we don't confess (or at least I hope so for I am sure I missed some).

In a salvation sense, I'd have to say that once saved I don't think that we do sin. Again, for sin to be assessed, there has to be a law that identifies its violation and what the penalty is. In my opinion, that law is the law of sin and death. When someone is taken from under that law by God and moved to under the law of the spirit of life in Christ, the law of sin and death is no longer applicable in any sense, and hence, it ceases to be in effect and sin is removed.

I think I understand your sentiment. I wouldn't agree with you when you state "the law of sin and death is no longer applicable in any sense" as the law is God's instructions as to how we are to live and therefore applicable in that sense IMO.

I'm not sure I've stated everything in the best possible way but I'm hoping you can get the idea

I think I get some of the idea.
You have a good day.

 

[rogerg]

"In a salvation sense", hmmm, that is confusing for me ... I think you are saying Christians are not accountable for sin in the sense that we will not go to the Lake of Fire as opposed to the literal sense that Christians can't sin.

I believe salvation is out of the hands of individuals. When (and if) saved, I think justification is by Christ and we are taken from the law of sin and death by it - but by His righteousness not ours. Again, I think we need to consider the sin we're discussing. If we violate the law of sin and death and don't become saved during our lifetime, then we will definitely be held accountable. The violation of the law and associated sin is demonstrated by not truly trusting in Christ but trusting in our works instead. If we've truly become saved, I think we will never/can never/would never want to trust in our works again for it, so that sin would not be committed by us. But.. the biblical verse says we're saved to the "uttermost", so where does "uttermost" start and end - I'm not exactly sure?
Otherwise, it would be a work on our part but trusting in our works is not an attribute of someone who is saved. Now, if we're talking about earthly sin, we have been directed by God to live in a way glorifying to Him (which admonition I'm absolutely sure you're familiar with). But if we fall short yet been saved from judgment, then how would we be held accountable spiritually speaking?
What I can say with a reasonable amount of certainty is that if we live in a way that God doesn't find pleasing in this life, He will definitely intervene, discipline and correct us (and it ain't pleasant) but it is for this world, not the next.

So Confession of sin to the intercessor for forgiveness is not efficacious (the ability to produce a desired or intended result) which means Paul is telling us to do something that is a waste of time so to speak. Aside: Admittedly, our sins (past and future) are forgiven even if we don't confess (or at least I hope so for I am sure I missed some).

I think confession demonstrates realization not a causation.

I think I understand your sentiment. I wouldn't agree with you when you state "the law of sin and death is no longer applicable in any sense" as the law is God's instructions as to how we are to live and therefore applicable in that sense IMO.

Appreciate your opinion and I'll think about it further.

I think I get some of the idea.
You have a good day.

Thanks and you too Fastfredy

 

[Fastfredy0]

Hey Roger:

I believe salvation is out of the hands of individuals. When (and if) saved, I think justification is by Christ and we are taken from the law of sin and death by it - but by His righteousness not ours.

Agreed...not sure what exactly you mean by "we are taken from the law of sin and death". I think I might agreed, but it would have to be defined. I would say we don't pay the penalty of the law, but we still should be obeying it.

I think we need to consider the sin we're discussing. If we violate the law of sin and death and don't become saved during our lifetime, then we will definitely be held accountable.

Agreed.

The violation of the law and associated sin is demonstrated by not truly trusting in Christ but trusting in our works instead. If we've truly become saved,

Agreed. If one relies on ones works Christ is of no value to him. Gal. 5:2-4.
So the interesting question is:
1) is the belief that ones self-determined (free will) faith a work and if so does Gal. 5:2-4 apply? (Aside: I've heard some interesting opinions from Reformers, the question is of no problem to those who self-determine their eternal fate)

If we've truly become saved, I think we will never/can never/would never want to trust in our works again for it, so that sin would not be committed by us.

Interesting conclusion and not without some foundation. I've pondered that conclusion for a while. Got several opinions like:

• R.C. Sproul: “If you trust upon anything else than Jesus Christ in addition to Jesus Christ you lose Christ, all or nothing at all. Christ does not become of less effect; he becomes of no effect if you try to
  add something to Him.” Sproul goes on to say that he thought Arminians are saved, but barely by which he meant “as long as they don’t take their theology to its logic conclusion. They would not be Christians if they put their trust in their own righteousness”. When Sproul came to faith he thought it was his choice; he didn’t know of scripture that described the process.
• One who preaches righteousness through the law is compelled to deny the sufficiency and necessity of Christ's redemptive work. And by definition, to deny the sufficiency and necessity of Christ makes one a non-Christian. Vincent Cheung
• several others I won't quote

... so you believe if one believes he must be water baptized (a work) to be saved then that person is not saved? (dirty question)

Now, if we're talking about earthly sin, we have been directed by God to live in a way glorifying to Him (which admonition I'm absolutely sure you're familiar with). But if we fall short yet been saved from judgment, then how would we be held accountable spiritually speaking?

I would say Christians are not held accountable for sin unless possibly their reward is not as great. 1 Corinthians 3:10-15

What I can say with a reasonable amount of certainty is that if we live in a way that God doesn't find pleasing in this life, He will definitely intervene, discipline and correct us (and it ain't pleasant) but it is for this world, not the next.

Agreed (looks over his shoulder for possible lightning bolts coming his way)

General statement: I hope you're correct, because I tend to agree with you.
Have a good one.

 

[rogerg]

Agreed...not sure what exactly you mean by "we are taken from the law of sin and death". I think I might agreed, but it would have to be defined. I would say we don't pay the penalty of the law, but we still should be obeying it.

I think that those who become saved are taken from the jurisdiction of the law of sin and death and translated to the jurisdiction of law of the spirit of life in Christ. I see them as being the apex of God's law (not sure that's the best way to state it though). These laws pertain to eternal judgment and/or to eternal salvation. They are not the moral laws of everyday life. Obviously, there's so much more that can be said about them, How would you interpret Rom 8:2, Fastfredy?

[Rom 8:2 KJV] 2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.

Agreed. If one relies on ones works Christ is of no value to him. Gal. 5:2-4.
So the interesting question is:
1) is the belief that ones self-determined (free will) faith a work and if so does Gal. 5:2-4 apply? (Aside: I've heard some interesting opinions from Reformers, the question is of no problem to those who self-determine their eternal fate)

I believe faith is a work and therefore I think Gal 5:2- 4 most definitely applies. Interestingly, not only is faith a work but it also has substance and is evidentiary

[Heb 11:1 KJV] 1 Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.

R.C. Sproul: “If you trust upon anything else than Jesus Christ in addition to Jesus Christ you lose Christ, all or nothing at all. Christ does not become of less effect; he becomes of no effect if you try to

Yeah I would very much have to agree with him. Bottom line: we're saved when God saves us if He saves us and that's all it takes.

so you believe if one believes he must be water baptized (a work) to be saved then that person is not saved? (dirty question)

No I don't believe water baptism has any spiritual efficacy. Baptism of the Holy Spirit is all that matters.
Water baptism is like circumcision, it is a symbol of salvation

I would say Christians are not held accountable for sin unless possibly their reward is not as great. 1 Corinthians 3:10-15

Don't think those verses are referring to an additional spiritual blessing. I think they're taking about finding reward in the salvation of others, or loss for those who aren't saved. Our whole reward is that Christ saved us, and all that goes along with that which is far beyond our ability to perceive it now - but I could be wrong.

Agreed (looks over his shoulder for possible lightning bolts coming his way)

General statement: I hope you're correct, because I tend to agree with you.
Have a good one.

Yeah, I've been zapped a few times myself and I learned fast to listen. Each zap gets exponentially worse so they're attention getters

I hope so too but logically speaking I can't see how it could be any other way. If you do, please let me know

 

[Fastfredy0]

I think that those who become saved are taken from the jurisdiction of the law of sin and death and translated to the jurisdiction of law of the spirit of life in Christ. I see them as being the apex of God's law (not sure that's the best way to state it though). These laws pertain to eternal judgment and/or to eternal salvation. They are not the moral laws of everyday life.

Well, as I stated in a previous post ... one would have to define what they meant by LAW. It gets confusing for me as it seems to me people use LAW in many ways.

How would you interpret Rom 8:2, Fastfredy?

[Rom 8:2 KJV] 2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.

Off the top of my head I would say Christians are free from 'spiritual death' (separation from God) for they will not be judged for their sins. Let's me see if I can find some egg-head that agrees ...
Some commentator says: "That the triumph of believers over their inward corruption, through the power of Christ's Spirit in them, proves them to be in Christ Jesus, and as such absolved from condemnation." Robert Jamieson; A. R. Fausset; David Brown

No I don't believe water baptism has any spiritual efficacy. Baptism of the Holy Spirit is all that matters.
Water baptism is like circumcision, it is a symbol of salvation

Agreed, but you avoided my question. Given Gal. 5:2-4 my question is: Can a person by saved if they believe 'water baptism' is needed for salvation?