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Desire to be a vessel of honor unto the Lord Jesus Christ?
Join For His Glory for a discussion on how
https://christianforums.net/threads/a-vessel-of-honor.110278/
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Taking the time to pray? Christ is the answer in times of need
https://christianforums.net/threads/psalm-70-1-save-me-o-god-lord-help-me-now.108509/
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Depending upon the Holy Spirit for all you do?
Read through the following study by Tenchi for more on this topic
https://christianforums.net/threads/without-the-holy-spirit-we-can-do-nothing.109419/
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How are famous preachers sometimes effected by sin?
Join Sola Scriptura for a discussion on the subject
https://christianforums.net/threads/anointed-preaching-teaching.109331/#post-1912042
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The Atonement: What did it REALLY Accomplish?
- Thread starter brightfame52
- Start date
Faith is a “work” of obedience; the obedience of faith.
But now is made manifest, and by the scriptures of the prophets, according to the commandment of the everlasting God, made known to all nations for the obedience of faith: Romans 16:26
Faith without the corresponding action of obedience is dead.
- Faith “works” by love. Our love for God is expressed by obedience.
By faith Noah, being divinely warned of things not yet seen, moved with godly fear, prepared an ark for the saving of his household, by which he condemned the world and became heir of the righteousness which is according to faith. Hebrews 11:7
By faith Noah...moved with godly fear, prepared an ark for the saving of his household.
Noah received faith when God told him to build the ark.
When Noah obeyed and moved with godly fear to complete the ark, the divine result was righteousness; the righteousness according to faith, in which his family was saved, and the world of the ungodly was condemned.
JLB
Yes, grace is the God given ability to obey Him: the Spirit of grace.
- Strength and wisdom to build the Ark.
- Favor to have people help with the work.
- Endurance to continue to the end and complete.
- The knowledge and understanding to get all the animals in the Ark and provide food and water for them.
...and much more.
Grace is the divine ability to accomplish what we hear God tell us to do, which is how faith comes to us; by hearing God.
JLB
Would this make sense: for the sake of argument, regardless of how one defines the laws, their effects are what is of importance. Could their effects be that the law of sin and death itself kept Paul trapped, a prisoner until the law of the Spirit of life in Christ itself set him free from it unto becoming a prisoner of eternal life?
Not sure I completely sure I fathom that commentator's statement, but if I'm anywhere near being close, if we examine Romans 8:2, I think we can see that it is the law of the Spirit of Life in Christ Jesus itself that set Paul free and not anything that Paul did but I may have missed it.
[Rom 8:2 KJV] 2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.
Can they be saved? Guess I don't understand your question. I thought we agreed that God does the saving and whomever He so chooses to save, will become saved, regardless of what they might or might not believe beforehand. If you're asking if that means they're not saved due to having any particular belief (including that one), I really don't like to assess another's spiritual state as I have enough trouble understanding my own. I will say generally speaking, that when someone becomes born again they don't necessarily have full knowledge of all of the salvation doctrines immediately- I think they will grow into knowledge of them over time, but eventually, will come to full knowledge that Christ is Savior and apply it to all possible respects including that He alone has fully accomplished everything necessary for salvation.
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For what it's worth, I believe that true faith is a work, but a work performed by God, not ourselves:
[Jhn 6:29 KJV]
29 Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.
Works for me.
Re: Given Gal. 5:2-4 my question is: Can a person by saved if they believe 'water baptism' is needed for salvation?
I was not asking about a judgment of any individual. I was searching for your understanding and application of Gal. 5:2-4 so I gave an practical example to help clarify the issue.
So, if I asked you if a person did not believe Christ was God then his salvation is questionable, you would in a similar way answer: "I really don't like to assess another's spiritual state"? (aside: last attempt to 'pin you down' ... lol)
General agreement with this. I wouldn't say anyone 'comes to full knowledge of Christ'.
Just to answer my own question the application of Gal. 5:2-4 and the person that believes he must be water baptized for salvation .... I would be worried for that guy ... I want to find a way to be assured he's gets a pass, but I don't see one. I haven't seen a commentator that gives the guy a 'bye'. Sola Fide
Final Thought by someone more elegant than myself
Paul’s insistence (1) that there is only one gospel—justification by faith alone in Christ’s work alone (Romans 3:27, Romans 3:28; Romans 4:5; Romans 10:4; Galatians 2:16a, Galatians 2:16b; Galatians 3:10, Galatians 3:11, Galatians 3:26; Philippians 3:8a, Philippians 3:8b), (2) that any other “gospel” is not the gospel, (3) that those who teach any other “gospel” stand under the anathema of God (Galatians 1:8, Galatians 1:9), and (4) that those who rely to any degree on their own works for their salvation nullify the grace of God (Romans 11:5–6), make void the cross work of Christ (Galatians 2:21; Galatians 5:2), become debtors to keep the entire law (Galatians 5:3), and in becoming such “fall from grace” (Galatians 5:4), that is, place themselves again under the curse of the law. As for the four church fathers named above—and many others like them—it is neither my nor their defenders’ place to assure the Christian world that surely God justified them by faith alone even though they themselves did not hold to a sola fide view of justification. To judge an individual’s salvation is God’s province and His alone. Therefore, I will not speculate one way or the other about their salvation. But I will say that our attitude should, with Paul, ever be: “Let God’s truth be inviolate, though every man becomes thereby a liar” (Romans 3:4). What I mean by this in the present context is that the clear teaching of the Word of God should be upheld and we should not look for reasons to avoid it, even if the alternative would force us to conclude that these fathers—and all others like them—were not saved. Robert Reymond A New Systematic Theology of the Christian Faith
GodsGrace
CF Ambassador
Stop worrying about others and start worrying about yourself since your belief system is heretical.
And I'll explain why.
GodsGrace
CF Ambassador
The NT says faith is NOT a work.
Do I believe you or the bible.....
How's my bobbing and weaving doing? I think the disconnect comes down to the fact that becoming born-again as opposed to the coming to a correct understanding of spiritual doctrines do not necessarily occur at the same time. I would have to say, as I understand it anyway, that when someone's life comes to an end, if they haven't come to faith in Christ as Savior with all that implies, then I think that would be a strong sign that God has not chosen them to salvation.
[Heb 10:16 KJV] 16 This [is] the covenant that I will make with them after those days, saith the Lord, I will put my laws into their hearts, and in their minds will I write them;
The laws being (I believe), the law of sin and death and the law of the Spirit of life in Jesus Christ
Wait - didn't I include a verse from the Bible that confirms what I said? Believe the Bible.
I'll post it again. Please tell me what you think it means:
[Jhn 6:29 KJV] 29 Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.
LOL ... I can't lay a glove on you ... you won't get in the ring on Gal. 5:2-4
Ah, now this was a more elegant "bob and weave".
I'll drop the question ... was fun trying to pin you down
Of course, that way you don't get hit.
Practice, practice, practice.
GodsGrace
CF Ambassador
John 6:29
"Jesus answered and said to them, "This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He has sent."
Faith is not a work. Faith is a free gift that God happily gives to those that desire it.
John 6:29 does not state that faith is a work.
Faith, however, encompasses within it all the works that ARE required by God for continued sanctification.
Jesus had fed the people following Him the day before.
When He went back across the Lake of Galilee the next day there were
crowds of people waiting for Him because of the great miracle He had done.
They found Jesus in Capernaum and here Jesus tells them that they are following Him
because of the miracle of feeding them...not because they believe in Him.
Jesus tells them that they should not spend their time seeking perishable things (like food), but they should seek eternal life that HE gives.
They want to know what they should do to satisfy God.
Jesus tells them that the "work" of God,,,the will of God, is that they believe in the One whom God has sent.
This is the reason Father sent Son....to save the world....to preach and teach and save those that will listen.
John 5:36
36“But the testimony which I have is greater than the testimony of John; for the works which the Father has given Me to accomplish—the very works that I do—testify about Me, that the Father has sent Me.
Faith comes by hearing the world of God.
Jesus is telling them that faith (belief) saves AND NOT WORKS.
Is hearing a work?
Is accepting the gospel a work?
The bible tells us that faith is NOT a work.
Paul contrasts faith and works in
Romans 4:5
2For if Abraham was justified by works, he has something to boast about, but not before God. 3For what does the Scripture say? “ABRAHAM BELIEVED GOD, AND IT WAS CREDITED TO HIM AS RIGHTEOUSNESS.” 4Now to the one who works, his wage is not credited as a favor, but as what is due. 5But to the one who does not work, but believes in Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is credited as righteousness, 6just as David also speaks of the blessing on the man to whom God credits righteousness apart from works:
Faith makes us righteous apart from works.
Thus faith is not a work.
Ephesians 2:8-9 tells us that we are saved by faith and NOT BY WORKS so that we cannot boast.
8For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; 9not as a result of works, so that no one may boast.
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GodsGrace
CF Ambassador
Please see my post no. 184
I agree with everything you've said above.
I do believe it's confusing to call faith a work...
Calvinists are the only "denomination" that claims faith to be a work.
Every other Christian denomination understands faith to be included in the gifts in Ephesians 2:8-9
If faith were a work....we would not be justified by faith, as we are.
Justification is purely a work of God.
Romans 3:28
For we hold that one is justified by faith apart from works of the law.
Romans 5:1
Therefore, since we have been justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ.
Philippians 3:9
And be found in him, not having a righteousness of my own that comes from the law, but that which comes through faith in Christ, the righteousness from God that depends on faith
GodsGrace
CF Ambassador
Faith is something we have and that we offer to God.
God's part is total and that is to justify the person that has believed the gospel,,,,
that has come to have faith in God.
If you want to call justification a work of God...I can live with that.
But it's not correct to call faith a work, as calvinists do.
Justification is TOTALLY by God.
However, John 6:29 does not really say what you believe it does.
Explained in my previous post to you.
As to the fact that you didn't understand what having to be born again first before being born again....
I've been reading your posts to Fastfredy0 and it's obvious that you understand much more than you let on.
Please don't play games with me since my time is very limited...
You're putting regeneration before salvation.
The N.T. tells us that one is FIRST saved....
and THEN regenerated.
Let's take the ever popular
Ephesians 2:8
8For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God;
By grace we are saved through faith.
What comes first?
Grace or faith?
(simple English, no theology necessary).
Acts 16:31
31They said, “Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved, you and your household.”
Believe and you will be saved.
What comes first?
Belief or salvation?
Romans 10:9
9that if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved;
Believe in your heart and you will be saved.
What comes first?
Belief or salvation?
There are many more.
An intelligent reply will be appreciated.
Thanks.
6:29 clearly says it's a work and God's work at that. He renews their minds and with it comes faith.
What within someone would trigger them to suddenly have a "desire" for a true faith in Jesus Christ? To even have that desire for faith in Christ, requires faith in Christ. Otherwise, they would find no value in it. In other words, they have to have it to want it. Without faith, those who are of the "believe not" group below -- which we all were at some point-- are unable to perceive the "glorious gospel of Christ", of themselves and would therefore never want any part of it -- they consider it to be folly, unless that is, a power intervened to give faith to them. That power is God.
[2Co 4:3-4 KJV] 3 But if our gospel be hid, it is hid to them that are lost:
4 In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.
1Co 1:24 reinforces this:
[1Co 1:24 NLT] 24 But to those called by God to salvation, both Jews and Gentiles, Christ is the power of God and the wisdom of God.
unless called by God to salvation, they will never be able to perceive Christ as "the power of God and the wisdom of God", so without having this perception, why would anyone desire to have faith in Christ?
So, respectfully, your statement appears, well, illogical.
Verse 6:29 in the KJV and other translations, do not include the phrase "the will of God" .
Per 2 Co 4:3 &4, above, no one of themselves are able to listen so they cannot hear
I don't find the conclusion you've reached reflected anywhere in the verse
I also don't find "faith comes by hearing the word of God" in that verse.
However I do realize that statement is in the Bible
[Rom 10:17-18 KJV]
17 So then faith [cometh] by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.
18 But I say, Have they not heard? Yes verily, their sound went into all the earth, and their words unto the ends of the world.
Interestingly, first, the hearing in view is not physical hearing, it's spiritual hearing. Only those born again have spiritual ears to hear. Second, even though their "sound went into the earth" (physical sound/ physical hearing), yet, they were still unable to hear the sound. This confirms that faith does not come through physical hearing but by spiritual hearing.
The "his faith" is Christ's faith credited to him as righteousness. God must impart faith first.
[Phl 3:9 KJV] 9 And be found in him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith:
[Gal 2:16 KJV]
16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.
I have never said anyone is saved by their works - far from it? Don't know why you would say that?
Romans 6:28-29 in the NET v2.1: "So then they said to him, “What must we do to accomplish the deeds God requires?” Jesus replied, “This is the deed God requires—to believe in the one whom he sent.” Notice that the question is about deeds (plural) and Jesus replies in the singular: deed.
2 Corinthians 4:2-6, "But we have rejected shameful hidden deeds, not behaving with deceptiveness or distorting the word of God, but by open proclamation of the truth we commend ourselves to everyone’s conscience before God. But even if our gospel is veiled, it is veiled only to those who are perishing, among whom the god of this age has blinded the minds of those who do not believe so they would not see the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God. For we do not proclaim ourselves, but Jesus Christ as Lord, and ourselves as your slaves for Jesus’ sake. For God, who said “Let light shine out of darkness,” is the one who shined in our hearts to give us the light of the glorious knowledge of God in the face of Christ."
I don't have the patience to translate the other King James verses into conventional English. It is obvious to me that people (not just rogerg) can take the English of 400+ years ago and spin it into whatever they want it to mean even though they are not qualified to do so.
When are people going to stop this practice and let God speak to us in the language that we write, speak, and clearly understand? I realize this is off-topic but it's a constant source of irritation to me. Why not let God's word "speak" in the plain language that Jesus, the apostles and others spoke/wrote? How many people would have listened to the Savior if he disguised His words in a language that the people didn't use and therefore clearly understand?
Romans 6:28 - 29? did they moved those verses to Romans 6 without telling me?