What's new
By:
Filters
Christian Forums

This is a sample guest message. Register a free account today to become a member! Once signed in, you'll be able to participate on this site by adding your own topics and posts, as well as connect with other members through your own private inbox!

The Atonement: What did it REALLY Accomplish?

jaybo said:
When are people going to stop this practice and let God speak to us in the language that we write, speak, and clearly understand? I realize this is off-topic but it's a constant source of irritation to me. Why not let God's word "speak" in the plain language that Jesus, the apostles and others spoke/wrote? How many people would have listened to the Savior if he disguised His words in a language that the people didn't use and therefore clearly understand?
Click to expand...
Have you never read these in the Bible?

[2Pe 1:20 KJV] 20 Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation.

this means that no single verse stands on it's own and must be interpreted relative the entire Bible.
"why not let God's word "speak" in plain language? " The following is why:

[Mar 4:11 KJV] 11 And he said unto them, Unto you it is given to know the mystery of the kingdom of God: but unto them that are without, all [these] things are done in parables:

[Luk 8:10 KJV] 10 And he said, Unto you it is given to know the mysteries of the kingdom of God: but to others in parables; that seeing they might not see, and hearing they might not understand.

[Mat 13:35 KJV] 35 That it might be fulfilled which was spoken by the prophet, saying, I will open my mouth in parables; I will utter things which have been kept secret from the foundation of the world.

[Gal 4:24 KJV] 24 Which things are an allegory: for these are the two covenants; the one from the mount Sinai, which gendereth to bondage, which is Agar.
 
Last edited:
wondering said:
If faith were a work....we would not be justified by faith, as we are.
Justification is purely a work of God.
Click to expand...

People are only justified by obedience; the obedience of faith.


Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered Isaac his son on the altar? James 2:21


The “work” Abraham did was to obey the word from God to offer his son Isacc on the altar.


Not good works
Not work that earns a wage
Not the works of the law.


The work or action of obedience; the obedience of faith




JLB
 
1 Pet 2:24

24 Who his own self bare our sins in his own body on the tree, that we, being dead to sins, should live unto righteousness: by whose stripes ye were healed.

The healing [ Spiritually] is the sure effect and benefit of His stripes [ or atonement], and His death in His own body on the Tree for sins of His church, His elect, His sheep, without fail secures and ensures their death to sin, and their being made alive to righteousness, even the righteousness of Faith.13

Many today really do not understand the power of Christ death and it's accomplishments.
 
Rollo Tamasi said:
Faith is not a work, it is a gift of God.
Click to expand...

No doubt faith is a gift from God.

How does faith work?

If a scripture says "by faith"...., how does something get accomplished "by faith".


How does faith work to accomplish salvation or healing or to produce righteousness in a persons life.


For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision avails anything, but faith working through love.
Galatians 5:6
 
JLB said:
If a scripture says "by faith"...., how does something get accomplished "by faith".


How does faith work to accomplish salvation or healing or to produce righteousness in a persons life.
Click to expand...

Christ was faithful to, and accomplished perfectly, the mission assigned Him by God the Father. Thereby was God the Father glorified and completely faithful to the promise (He) had made to Abraham.

(forgot to include this)

[Gal 3:18 KJV] 18 For if the inheritance [be] of the law, [it is] no more of promise: but God gave [it] to Abraham by promise.

[Jhn 6:39 KJV]
39 And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.

[Psa 40:7-10 KJV]
7 Then said I, Lo, I come: in the volume of the book [it is] written of me,
8 I delight to do thy will, O my God: yea, thy law [is] within my heart.
9 I have preached righteousness in the great congregation: lo, I have not refrained my lips, O LORD, thou knowest.
10 I have not hid thy righteousness within my heart; I have declared thy faithfulness and thy salvation: I have not concealed thy lovingkindness and thy truth from the great congregation.

[Heb 10:9-10 KJV]
9 Then said he, Lo, I come to do thy will, O God. He taketh away the first, that he may establish the second.
10 By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once [for all].

Because of, and by the faith of Christ, those who are to be saved inherit (gifted) faith in Christ.
It was His work to achieve it, but is given as a gift to its recipients

[Gal 2:16 KJV]
16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.

Notice that nothing in Gal 2:16 required work of any kind on our part: "but by the faith of Jesus Christ" "we have believed in Jesus Christ": His faith gave us our faith
 
rogerg said:
Have you never read these in the Bible?

[2Pe 1:20 KJV] 20 Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation.

this means that no single verse stands on it's own and must be interpreted relative the entire Bible.
"why not let God's word "speak" in plain language? " The following is why:

[Mar 4:11 KJV] 11 And he said unto them, Unto you it is given to know the mystery of the kingdom of God: but unto them that are without, all [these] things are done in parables:

[Luk 8:10 KJV] 10 And he said, Unto you it is given to know the mysteries of the kingdom of God: but to others in parables; that seeing they might not see, and hearing they might not understand.

[Mat 13:35 KJV] 35 That it might be fulfilled which was spoken by the prophet, saying, I will open my mouth in parables; I will utter things which have been kept secret from the foundation of the world.

[Gal 4:24 KJV] 24 Which things are an allegory: for these are the two covenants; the one from the mount Sinai, which gendereth to bondage, which is Agar.
Click to expand...

I have read them all -- in English, not "Englyshe". I was born in the 20th Century in the US and have spoken, read, written, thought in my native language for decades. Why should I have to go through an unnecessary second translation into my native language by interpreting what was written 400+ years ago?

Your last quote is a perfect example. What in the world does "Which things are an allegory: for these are the two covenants; the one from the mount Sinai, which gendereth to bondage, which is Agar" mean?

I won't hijack this discussion debating about the KJV.
 
jaybo said:
Yes, they did. Time to buy a new Bible. Didn't you realize that the Apostle John wrote Romans under the pseudonym of "Paul"?
Click to expand...
I would love to be the apostle collecting 'royalties' on book sales. Guinness estimates 5 billion copies. Even at a penny a copy I'd have 50 million bucks. Probably have 100,000 people at book signings. :chin .... on the other hand, you usually end up murdered in that job.
 
Last edited:
rogerg said:
Have you never read these in the Bible?

[2Pe 1:20 KJV] 20 Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation.

this means that no single verse stands on it's own and must be interpreted relative the entire Bible.
"why not let God's word "speak" in plain language? " The following is why:

[Mar 4:11 KJV] 11 And he said unto them, Unto you it is given to know the mystery of the kingdom of God: but unto them that are without, all [these] things are done in parables:

[Luk 8:10 KJV] 10 And he said, Unto you it is given to know the mysteries of the kingdom of God: but to others in parables; that seeing they might not see, and hearing they might not understand.

[Mat 13:35 KJV] 35 That it might be fulfilled which was spoken by the prophet, saying, I will open my mouth in parables; I will utter things which have been kept secret from the foundation of the world.

[Gal 4:24 KJV] 24 Which things are an allegory: for these are the two covenants; the one from the mount Sinai, which gendereth to bondage, which is Agar.
Click to expand...

This is my last post on this sub-topic...

You wrote

Have you never read these in the Bible?

[2Pe 1:20 KJV] 20 Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation.

this means that no single verse stands on it's own and must be interpreted relative the entire Bible.
"why not let God's word "speak" in plain language?

Why must you explain what "this means"? Point proven! I won't discuss this any more in this thread. Period.
 
jaybo said:
Yes, they did. Time to buy a new Bible. Didn't you realize that the Apostle John wrote Romans under the pseudonym of "Paul"? :sohappy
Click to expand...

Kidding, right? You find those verses in the book of Romans and not in John? You believe that Paul and John are the same person? Please post where you read that - it's important information

This is the last verse I have in Romans 6
[Rom 6:23 KJV] 23 For the wages of sin [is] death; but the gift of God [is] eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

Please post your Romans 6:29
 
rogerg said:
Kidding, right? You find those verses in the book of Romans and not in John? You believe that Paul and John are the same person? Please post where you read that - it's important information

This is the last verse I have in Romans 6
[Rom 6:23 KJV] 23 For the wages of sin [is] death; but the gift of God [is] eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

Please post your Romans 6:29
Click to expand...

Yes, kidding.
 
JLB said:
No doubt faith is a gift from God.

How does faith work?

If a scripture says "by faith"...., how does something get accomplished "by faith".


How does faith work to accomplish salvation or healing or to produce righteousness in a persons life.


For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision avails anything, but faith working through love.
Galatians 5:6
Click to expand...
My response was to clarify to some people who may think otherwise.
Some of the posts on this thread can be confusing.
 
rogerg said:
Kidding, right? You find those verses in the book of Romans and not in John? You believe that Paul and John are the same person? Please post where you read that - it's important information

This is the last verse I have in Romans 6
[Rom 6:23 KJV] 23 For the wages of sin [is] death; but the gift of God [is] eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

Please post your Romans 6:29
Click to expand...
Oh for goodness sake roger!!!
Are YOU serious?
 
rogerg said:
Kidding, right? You find those verses in the book of Romans and not in John? You believe that Paul and John are the same person? Please post where you read that - it's important information

This is the last verse I have in Romans 6
[Rom 6:23 KJV] 23 For the wages of sin [is] death; but the gift of God [is] eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

Please post your Romans 6:29
Click to expand...
The free gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ?

Right.

And how does one achieve eternal life?

Through faith.

Thus, faith is a free gift of God and NOT a work.
 
JLB said:
People are only justified by obedience; the obedience of faith.


Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered Isaac his son on the altar? James 2:21


The “work” Abraham did was to obey the word from God to offer his son Isacc on the altar.


Not good works
Not work that earns a wage
Not the works of the law.


The work or action of obedience; the obedience of faith




JLB
Click to expand...
The obedience of faith.
Not the obedience because we follow a set of rules with no faith.
We do good deeds/works because we have faith,
we obey out of faith.
We practice the obedience of faith.
Romans 1:5
We believe and so we obey.

5through whom we have received grace and apostleship to bring about the obedience of faith among all the Gentiles for His name’s sake...

I think we agree.
 
Last edited:
Fastfredy0 said:
I would love to be the apostle collecting 'royalties' on book sales. Guinness estimates 5 billion copies. Even at a penny a copy I'd have 50 million bucks. Probably have 100,000 people at book signings. :chin .... on the other hand, you usually end up murdered in that job.
Click to expand...
No Apostle would be collecting royalties.
The Church Fathers that put the N.T. together would collecting the royalties.

The same church fathers that believed in free will....
did NOT believe in predestination....
and believed in doing good deeds/works.

If, on the other hand, he would turn to the things of death, disobeying God, he would himself be the cause of death to h imself. For God made man free, and with power of himself.
Theophilus 180AD

But man, being fendowed with reason, and in this respect similar to God, having b een made free in his will, and with power over himself, is himself his own cause that sometimes he becomes wheat and sometimes chaff.
Irenareus 180AD

God's will is especially obeyed by the free will of good men.
Clement of Alexandria 195AD

When you are desirous to do well, God is also ready to assist you.
Ignatius of Antioch 105AD
 
rogerg said:
6:29 clearly says it's a work and God's work at that. He renews their minds and with it comes faith.
What within someone would trigger them to suddenly have a "desire" for a true faith in Jesus Christ? To even have that desire for faith in Christ, requires faith in Christ. Otherwise, they would find no value in it. In other words, they have to have it to want it. Without faith, those who are of the "believe not" group below -- which we all were at some point-- are unable to perceive the "glorious gospel of Christ", of themselves and would therefore never want any part of it -- they consider it to be folly, unless that is, a power intervened to give faith to them. That power is God.
Click to expand...

Where is the verse that states that God renews your mind?
Please list them.

Romans 12:1-2
1I appeal to you therefore, brothers, by the mercies of God, to present your bodies as a living sacrifice, holy and acceptable to God, which is your spiritual worship.
2Do not be conformed to this world, but be transformed by the renewal of your mind, that by testing you may discern what is the will of God, what is good and acceptable and perfect.

Philippians 4:8
8Finally, brothers, whatever is true, whatever is honorable, whatever is just, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is commendable, if there is any excellence, if there is anything worthy of praise, think about these things.

Colossians 3:2
2Set your minds on things that are above, not on things that are on earth.


Above are some ways that we renew our minds.
Notice Romans where we are exhorted to present ourselves a living sacrifice to God, and to not be conformed to this world.

Those are commands.
Commands would not be necessary if it was God renewing our mind.
The Holy Spirit assists us in pleasing God...but it is WE that DO.
And all the glory goes to God for His loving Grace toward we humans.

And where are the verses that state that we FIRST have our mind renewed
and THEN get faith?

You are not properly interpreting scripture.
You never answered to the verses I posted regarding this.

First we come to believe THEN we receive faith and salvation.
Regeneration does not come before salvation.

please reply to the following which was originally in my post no. 196 and to which you did not reply:

Ephesians 2:8
8For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God;

By grace we are saved through faith.
What comes first?
Grace or faith?
(simple English, no theology necessary).

Acts 16:31
31They said, “Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved, you and your household.”

Believe and you will be saved.
What comes first?
Belief or salvation?

Romans 10:9
9that if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved;

Believe in your heart and you will be saved.
What comes first?
Belief or salvation?

There are many more.
An intelligent reply will be appreciated.
Thanks.
 
Purpose and accomplishment of Christ death

2 Cor 5:15

15 And that he died for all, that they which live should not henceforth live unto themselves, but unto him which died for them, and rose again.

Paul here in this context gives us another purpose and accomplishment of Christ death for sinners.

He died for all [ the called or chosen or church] that [in order that] they which live [ spiritually] should henceforth [ no longer, no more] live unto themselves, but [ nevertheless , rather] unto Him which died for them, and rose again.

So the very death of Christ, produces in them He died for, a life of self sacrifice, and living unto Him, the crucified life.

This is why Paul boasted in the power of the cross in his own life writing Gal 6:14

14But God forbid that I should glory, save in the cross of our Lord Jesus Christ, by whom the world is crucified unto me, and I unto the world.

The cross effects each life of those Christ died for to one degree or another, but it produces results, it bears fruit. Jn 12:2414

24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except a corn of wheat fall into the ground and die, it abideth alone: but if it die, it bringeth forth much fruit.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top