Bible Study The authority of the law: Romans 7

[smaller]

Could share with us, from the scriptures what the difference is between sin and "demonic sin"?


JLB

All sin is demonic. 1 John 3:8 provides no exceptions.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

you seem to say that we've been freed from sin.

...freed from the sin nature. It's power to hold you captive to do it's bidding, like a husband over a wife, has been broken. The only reason he can hold any power over us, his former wife, is because we foolishly and/or ignorantly allow him to. We catch a glimpse of an old photograph of him laying around the house and we suddenly hear his voice from the grave in our minds and old temptations get stirred up inside of us again urging us to submit in obedience to him again. But through knowledge we can learn to resist that voice and recognize it as a lying voice because husband Jesus has assured us that we are not in marital bondage to that old husband anymore, and because that's true we don't have to do listen to his voice from the grave anymore.

I still say we've been freed from the Law.

We have been freed from the law, but just not in the way you and most in the church say we have been. We have been freed from the condemnation of the law. Why? Because we've been set free from the bondage of the sin nature--the sin nature that compelled us, like a husband over a wife--to do the things that solicit the condemnation of the law:

"6 But now we have been released from the Law, having died to that by which we were bound (the sin nature), so that we serve in newness of the Spirit and not in oldness of the letter." (Romans 7:6 NASB parenthesis mine)

You say the law is only a curse in that it exposes and magnifies mankind's sin.

No, the law is not the curse in and of itself. Not obeying the law brings the curse prescribed by the law. 'Curse of the law' means the curse that will come on those who do not uphold it. But the church has been taught to hear 'curse of the law' as meaning we're under a set of rules that God expects us to obey. God still expects us to fulfill the law. And now that we're married to husband Jesus, we can do that and not come under the curse, the condemnation, of the law.

Paul "die", because the commandment, or law came. It's the law we're married to - it's the law that makes us know sin and let's us be guilty, it's the law that made Paul die.

No, the law in the analogy is the legal document that kept us in marital union with sin, like a marriage license keeps a woman in marital union with her husband. When we were married to ex-husband 'sin nature' the law acted like a legal marriage certificate that made it so we could not be with anyone else. We remained slaves to sin. The law, because it provoked and stirred up our relationship with husband sin nature, acted like a marriage certificate that keeps a woman bound to her husband, and prevented us from being joined to another, because it continually stirred up our faithfulness to obey husband sin nature.

He took all the laws upon Himself so that we would no longer be responsible for following them.

In context, what Paul is talking about is Jesus took the penalty of the law upon himself. And not so we can now 'not have to keep the law', as the church so often asserts, but so we can fulfill it. Because while we were in marital bondage to the sin nature we could not be with another husband. The law acting like a marriage certificate that legislated our continuing, mandatory relationship with 'sin nature'.

 

[GodsGrace]

Hi Jethro,

Okay. I do believe we agree on everything. Words! It's all words.

So if you say:

freed from the sin nature. It's power to hold you captive to do it's bidding,

If you're saying we have been "freed" from the sin nature in the sense of its power to hold us captive, then I agree 100%. The authority of the sin nature no longer has a hold on us.

I thought you were saying that we don't sin anymore. I've heard that here. Also, the sin nature has not been totally eradicated. We still have the sin nature - it just has no power over us, or very little power since we still sin.

In Mathew 5:17 Jesus clearly states that He has not come to abolish the law but to fulfill it. From the cross Jesus said "It is Finished." John 19:30 What is finished is the death to the old law that killed, that exposed our sins and that was impossible to keep. If something is finished, something new must be here. The new way. Trusting in Jesus. Trusting in the Holy Spirit that He sent to help us - our paraclete.

Colossians 3:3 Says we have died and our life is hidden with Christ with God.
verse 5: "Consider the members of your earthly body as dead to immorality, impurity, passion, evil desire and greed."
verse 7: "And in them you once walked, when you were living in them."

You see, it's possible that we could still fail in our effort but we are no longer "living in them." We no longer have the desire to do evil but to do good instead.

verse 11: "A renewal in which there is no Greek and Jew, circumcised and uncircumcised, b arbarian and freeman - Christ is in all."
verse 12: "and so those who have been chosen of God, holy and beloved, put on a heart of compassion, kindness,humility, gentleness and patience."

We are called to be a holy people - and now the power is given to us through Jesus who nailed the law and its power to the cross and we can now live in grace.

This does not mean we can sin. Mathew 5: Not one dot of the law will be abolished till the end of time.
It just means that we are under grace and the Holy Spirit is our helper
and not under the law which condemned us by exposing our sin and giving us no hope of following the law because we were trying to do this under our own works and efforts.

The Rich Young Man in Mathew 19:16-22 told Jesus he had kept all the commandments. So Jesus told him to do something He knew he wouldn't be able to. "If you want to be perfect, go and sell your possessions and give them to the poor."

If you want to be perfect... No one can be perfect. So we do our best with the help of the Holy Spirit and count on Jesus for the rest.

I do wonder though, which church says we no longer have to keep the law. I don't think any does. Not even the grace movement churches. What they're saying is the above - trouble is that many want to understand it their own way so they could do what they want to. This is not what is meant by "the law is dead." Jesus told the adultress, "Neither do I condemn you - go and SIN NO MORE."

I hope I've understood.

Wondering

 

[JLB]

All sin is demonic. 1 John 3:8 provides no exceptions.

He who sins is of the devil, for the devil has sinned from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that He might destroy the works of the devil.
1 John 3:8

This verse says, "He", (the person) who sins, is of the devil...

The person does the sinning.

James says it this way -

But each one is tempted when he is drawn away by his own desires and enticed. 15 Then, when desire has conceived, it gives birth to sin; and sin, when it is full-grown, brings forth death. James 1:14-15

Each one is tempted... By his own desires...

When that persons desire has conceived, it gives birth to sin.

This is how a born again Christian falls into sin, and consequently ends up losing their salvation if not repented of, because they do in fact have a sin nature, that desires to gratify itself.

The way we have been equipped to fight and overcome is by the divine nature within the believer, filled and empowered by the Holy Spirit, mortifying these desires and deeds by the Spirit.

Therefore, brethren, we are debtors—not to the flesh, to live according to the flesh. 13 For if you live according to the flesh you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the deeds of the body, you will live. Romans 8:12-13

This was a statement by the Apostle Paul, to Christians.

Christians have a choice to live according to the sinful desires of the flesh or to live according the Spirit.


JLB

 

[RevSRE]

There is therefore now no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus, who do not walk according to the flesh, but according to the Spirit. Romans 8:1 JLB

The last paart of that verse in not in the best manuscripts and is likely added by a scribe form the later verses. I left it off because it is not there.

 

[RevSRE]

I do wonder though, which church says we no longer have to keep the law. I don't think any does. Not even the grace movement churches. What they're saying is the above - trouble is that many want to understand it their own way so they could do what they want to. This is not what is meant by "the law is dead." Jesus told the adulteress, "Neither do I condemn you - go and SIN NO MORE."

I would like to ask, when someone says they are or are not under the law, WHAT DO THEY MEAN?
I think the Ceremonial law of Moses and the Governmental law if Israel ARE OVER AND GONE. BUT , the MORAL LAW OF GOD IS FOREVER. I think we can find all the COMMANDMENTS repeated in the NT.
We are still subject to the Moral Law.
But, Paul is saying in RO 7 The illustration here is to teach No matter who or how good you are YOU STILL Need Jesus and Gods Grace to be saved. Paul is saying "I cannot of MY own power do what is needed to be saved. Please do not get lost in the discussion of THE Law and miss Paul's point. Do not over teach the illustration and miss the point of the lesson.

Just my opinion for what it is worth!

 

[Warrior4Jesus]

It isn't that i think there is no sin in me(i do sin). But sin is not the devil. Satan himself does not dwell in me. If he did then i am not saved. And that's not your call to make. And God no longer makes that call either when Jesus intercedes on our behalf. Some sin is natural some sin is learned and others are introduced.

 

[jocor]

John 19:30 What is finished is the death to the old law that killed, that exposed our sins and that was impossible to keep.

I disagree. I believe Yeshua meant everything he had to do to save mankind and show them the way of life was finished. The work that his Father gave him to do was finished.

There is no "old law". The Torah/Law that existed in the "Old Covenant" is to be written on the hearts and minds of believers in the New Covenant (Jer 31:31-33). It certainly was possible to keep the Law since Yeshua did it. Does that mean someone else can keep it perfectly as well? I doubt it. One would have to be filled to the max with the Holy Spirit and totally in tune with the Father's will. He would need to have an intimate knowledge of the Word which I doubt anyone has to the degree that Yeshua did.

 

[ezrider]

Hebrews 8:7-13
For if that first covenant had been faultless, then should no place have been sought for the second. For finding fault with them, he saith, Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah: Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day when I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt; because they continued not in my covenant, and I regarded them not, saith the Lord. For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts:and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people: And they shall not teach every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord:for all shall know me, from the least to the greatest. For I will be merciful to their unrighteousness, and their sins and their iniquities will I remember no more.
In that he saith, A new covenant, he hath made the first old. Now that which decayeth and waxeth old is ready to vanish away.

The first covenant, the old covenant, the covenant of Laws was found to have a fault. The Law is certainly an authority, but it has a flaw and waxes old ready to vanish away.

What was the weakness or fault found within the covenant of Law the Lord needed a new covenant?

 

[Sinthesis]

What was the weakness or fault found within the covenant of Law the Lord needed a new covenant?

Our feeble human nature considers what it would be like to transgress a rigid boundary as soon as one is set down. Principles are better than any written laws provided the principles are a gift from God, and God is consulted to resolve any ambiguity about their application.

Basically, what is legal is not always just, and what is just is not always legal.

 

[GodsGrace]

I do wonder though, which church says we no longer have to keep the law. I don't think any does. Not even the grace movement churches. What they're saying is the above - trouble is that many want to understand it their own way so they could do what they want to. This is not what is meant by "the law is dead." Jesus told the adulteress, "Neither do I condemn you - go and SIN NO MORE."

I would like to ask, when someone says they are or are not under the law, WHAT DO THEY MEAN?
I think the Ceremonial law of Moses and the Governmental law if Israel ARE OVER AND GONE. BUT , the MORAL LAW OF GOD IS FOREVER. I think we can find all the COMMANDMENTS repeated in the NT.
We are still subject to the Moral Law.
But, Paul is saying in RO 7 The illustration here is to teach No matter who or how good you are YOU STILL Need Jesus and Gods Grace to be saved. Paul is saying "I cannot of MY own power do what is needed to be saved. Please do not get lost in the discussion of THE Law and miss Paul's point. Do not over teach the illustration and miss the point of the lesson.

Just my opinion for what it is worth!

You're first pp is my quote even though the quotes are not there and that's why I'm answering.

When people say we are no longer under the Law it could mean different things, in my opinion.
Some take it to mean, literally, that ALL the law is dead and we are not to keep it. I've never heard any church say this, I'm speaking of individual persons. Even Cheflo Dollar and Joseph Prince say that we are to keep the commandments.

So, of course, you're right. The ceremonial law is dead. The moral law is to be kept. Jesus Himself said it, what more do we need? In fact He narrowed all the law down into two commandments - which is all we need. I used to like seeing the light go off on kids' faces when they would understand that if they just followed the two laws, all the others would be automatically kept! If we love God, we won't forsake the assembling of ourselves, we won't take His name in vain, etc. If we love our neighbor we won't be jealous of his goods, we won't steal from him, etc. So the moral law is still in effect. And how could it NOT be?? God even created the natural law which even atheists follow!

What I mean by "the law is dead" is the difference between the Old or Mosaic Covenant and the New Covenant. Said quickly, The O.C. is works and the N.C. is grace. The O.C. is written on stone. God told us what we were to do but we didn't have the power to do it. 2 Corinthians 3:7

In The N.C. the law is written on the heart. Jesus is the stone tablet, He is the law written in our heart.
Jeremiah 31:33 and practically all of 2 Corinthians 3:2-6 especially.

We are not adequate in ourselves to keep the law. So how does Jesus help us? THIS is the pivotal question to be answered. Jesus came amoung us. He was here. We saw Him. His words are written down. We have known His life through the writers. He has authority, He inspires love. He went to the cross for us. He died so that we might be redeemed. How great was our debt that He paid! How thankful we should be. How much should we love one who would do this for us? This love is what inspires us to WANT to keep the law.

God said in the Old Testament that He would be our God [and we would be His people.]
Exodus 6:7
It will be completed in the New Covenant, Jeremiah 31:33

And now it could work because we have seen God. This is the difference between being under the law and being under grace.

Wondering

 

[GodsGrace]

I disagree. I believe Yeshua meant everything he had to do to save mankind and show them the way of life was finished. The work that his Father gave him to do was finished.

There is no "old law". The Torah/Law that existed in the "Old Covenant" is to be written on the hearts and minds of believers in the New Covenant (Jer 31:31-33). It certainly was possible to keep the Law since Yeshua did it. Does that mean someone else can keep it perfectly as well? I doubt it. One would have to be filled to the max with the Holy Spirit and totally in tune with the Father's will. He would need to have an intimate knowledge of the Word which I doubt anyone has to the degree that Yeshua did.

I think we agree.
See my post no. 111

Wondering

 

[Chopper]

He who sins is of the devil, for the devil has sinned from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that He might destroy the works of the devil.
1 John 3:8

This verse says, "He", (the person) who sins, is of the devil...

The person does the sinning.

James says it this way -

But each one is tempted when he is drawn away by his own desires and enticed. 15 Then, when desire has conceived, it gives birth to sin; and sin, when it is full-grown, brings forth death. James 1:14-15

Each one is tempted... By his own desires...

When that persons desire has conceived, it gives birth to sin.

This is how a born again Christian falls into sin, and consequently ends up losing their salvation if not repented of, because they do in fact have a sin nature, that desires to gratify itself.

The way we have been equipped to fight and overcome is by the divine nature within the believer, filled and empowered by the Holy Spirit, mortifying these desires and deeds by the Spirit.

Therefore, brethren, we are debtors—not to the flesh, to live according to the flesh. 13 For if you live according to the flesh you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the deeds of the body, you will live. Romans 8:12-13

This was a statement by the Apostle Paul, to Christians.

Christians have a choice to live according to the sinful desires of the flesh or to live according the Spirit.


JLB

Hey old friend, I'm not sure that I agree with this statement of yours without more information...."This is how a born again Christian falls into sin, and consequently ends up losing their salvation if not repented of, because they do in fact have a sin nature, that desires to gratify itself."

My goodness, this "loosing Salvation" has just about been beaten to death around here. Personally, I don't believe that un-repented sin will drive a person to the Lake of Fire. They will loose rewards, but not Salvation. There is no statement in Scripture that lists the amount of un-repented sins that might send a Christian to the LoF, therefore it's not a valid statement.

When we finally stand before our Savior Jesus the Son of God, we will be shocked by our sins that were not repented of. Our minds have a unique way of shutting out negative thoughts. It's called "denial". We sometimes forget the power that the evil one has over our minds to keep us from bringing glory to Jesus our Lord. Denial of committed sins is one of his tricks.

I think you know that I, in no way, believe that a true Believer in Jesus the Son of God, will ever loose their Salvation. So my friend, you might qualify your statement so we won't believe something that you don't really believe, or maybe you do believe it?

 

[JLB]

the MORAL LAW OF GOD IS FOREVER.

Agreed.
Law of God, not law of Moses.

Abraham walked in The laws and commandments of the Lord, 430 years before the law of Moses was added.

God's laws are eternal, the law of Moses was temporary.

The 10 commandments didn't originate with Moses, nor are they done away with, though the law of Moses has been abolished in His flesh.

The laws of Gods kingdom are eternal, as His Kingdom is Eternal.

Here how the Father says it -

But to the Son He says:

“Your throne, O God, is forever and ever;
A scepter of righteousness isthe scepter of Your kingdom.
Hebrews 1:8


JLB

 

[JLB]

Hey old friend, I'm not sure that I agree with this statement of yours without more information...."This is how a born again Christian falls into sin, and consequently ends up losing their salvation if not repented of, because they do in fact have a sin nature, that desires to gratify itself."

My goodness, this "loosing Salvation" has just about been beaten to death around here. Personally, I don't believe that un-repented sin will drive a person to the Lake of Fire. They will loose rewards, but not Salvation. There is no statement in Scripture that lists the amount of un-repented sins that might send a Christian to the LoF, therefore it's not a valid statement.

When we finally stand before our Savior Jesus the Son of God, we will be shocked by our sins that were not repented of. Our minds have a unique way of shutting out negative thoughts. It's called "denial". We sometimes forget the power that the evil one has over our minds to keep us from bringing glory to Jesus our Lord. Denial of committed sins is one of his tricks.

I think you know that I, in no way, believe that a true Believer in Jesus the Son of God, will ever loose their Salvation. So my friend, you might qualify your statement so we won't believe something that you don't really believe, or maybe you do believe it?

I will answer this extremely important question with scripture, if Jethro will allow this in his thread, if not we can open a thread.

In short, I will ask you if you think James is writing to Christians or the world in these passages?

12 Blessed is the man who endures temptation; for when he has been approved, he will receive the crown of life which the Lord has promised to those who love Him. 13 Let no one say when he is tempted, “I am tempted by God”; for God cannot be tempted by evil, nor does He Himself tempt anyone. 14 But each one is tempted when he is drawn away by his own desires and enticed. 15 Then, when desire has conceived, it gives birth to sin; and sin, when it is full-grown, brings forth death. James 1:12-15

JLB

 

[Chopper]

I will answer this extremely important question with scripture, if Jethro will allow this in his thread, if not we can open a thread.

In short, I will ask you if you think James is writing to Christians or the world in these passages?

12 Blessed is the man who endures temptation; for when he has been approved, he will receive the crown of life which the Lord has promised to those who love Him. 13 Let no one say when he is tempted, “I am tempted by God”; for God cannot be tempted by evil, nor does He Himself tempt anyone. 14 But each one is tempted when he is drawn away by his own desires and enticed. 15 Then, when desire has conceived, it gives birth to sin; and sin, when it is full-grown, brings forth death. James 1:12-15

JLB

I'm hoping that Jethro will allow this as well JLB or perhaps you could frame a new thread that would be a little different than all others that have been presented.

My answer to your Question, "In short, I will ask you if you think James is writing to Christians or the world in these passages?" is the following Scripture....
James 1:1 "James, a servant of God and of the Lord Jesus Christ, to the twelve tribes which are scattered abroad, greeting." Within these twelve Tribes, there were true believers in the promises of God thru the Prophets and examples of the Patriarchs of Israel, and some who were not.

So, V.15 would apply to those who failed to believe by faith the promises of God.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

wondering, I'm short on time to participate in the forums lately, so I'll just post these verses from the context of Paul's discourse here in Romans to show you that it is the sin nature that has died and which we were married to and which then releases us from the authority of the law to condemn us.

"17But thanks be to God that though you were slaves of sin (husband sin nature), you became obedient from the heart to that form of teaching to which you were committed, 18and having been freed from (husband) sin, you became slaves of righteousness (Jesus Christ). 19I am speaking in human terms because of the weakness of your flesh. For just as you presented your members as slaves to impurity and to lawlessness (ex-husband sin nature), resulting in further lawlessness, so now present your members as slaves to righteousness (new husband Jesus Christ), resulting in sanctification.

20For when you were slaves of (husband) sin, you were free in regard to righteousness (that is, Jesus, because you can't be married to someone else while you are presently married).
22But now having been freed from (husband) sin and enslaved to God (husband Jesus), you derive your benefit, resulting in sanctification, and the outcome, eternal life." (Romans 6:17-20,22 NASB italics in original, parenthesis mine)

"6But now we have been released from the (authority of the) Law (to keep us in bondage to husband sin nature), having died to that by which we were bound (husband sin nature), so that we serve in newness of the Spirit and not in oldness of the letter." (Romans 7:6 NASB parenthesis mine)

You can see that the key to understanding 'who' we were married to, and what has now died, is the context of the discussion that Romans 7 is in. He spells out for us 'who' it is that we were bound and enslaved to in Romans 6, then uses the analogy of wife/ husband to further illustrate it in Romans 7. Our enslavement was to the sin nature, not the law. The law acted like the certificate of marriage that kept us bound to the sin nature because it aroused and enforced our relationship with husband sin nature.


Also, I have intended all along to open up another study about the law in regard to it 'passing away' and how that affects our relationship to the law in this New Covenant. Look for it. I'll save you a seat up front.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

I'm hoping that Jethro will allow this as well JLB or perhaps you could frame a new thread that would be a little different than all others that have been presented.

Trying to get out the door this morning, so I haven't dug into it yet, but I think we should open another study to cover this.

 

[smaller]

Hebrews 8:7-13
For if that first covenant had been faultless, then should no place have been sought for the second. For finding fault with them, he saith,

The first covenant, the old covenant, the covenant of Laws was found to have a fault. The Law is certainly an authority, but it has a flaw and waxes old ready to vanish away.

What was the weakness or fault found within the covenant of Law the Lord needed a new covenant?

There is nothing wrong or faulted in the law. The fault was found with "them," the people. That fault is sin indwelling the flesh which can not follow the law, ever.

The "letter" of the law can not instill The Spirit of the Law. The Spirit of the Law is spelled out quite sufficiently in Romans 13:8-10 among other similar citings.

 

[smaller]

Christians have a choice to live according to the sinful desires of the flesh or to live according the Spirit.

JLB

No amount of choices are going to make anyone sinless.

Living according to the Spirit automatically comes with having resistance to the Spirit in the flesh. Gal. 5:17.

It is impossible to extend compliance to that which is contrary to the Spirit.