THE BAPTISM, with, of, or in, THE HOLY SPIRIT

[Mike W]

water baptism while an ordinance is only an outward sign of an inward transformation where the true baptism of salvation occurs.

I'd like to suggest that water baptism is more than just an outward sign. Baptism has three aspects to it.

1. Baptism is the initiatory sign by which we are admitted to the fellowship of the Church of Jesus Christ. We are en grafted into Jesus and may be considered "Children of God".
2. Baptism is also a sign that we have truly repented. In the early church, deacons would spend as much as 7 days explaining repentance to a seeker so that they were sure the seeker was
serious. Repentance always precedes baptism.
3. Baptism is an outward sign to all men that a person has repented, believed on Jesus, and is not ashamed of his conversion.

Might I suggest that there are two baptisms. 1. Water baptism whereby the Holy Spirit indwells us and places us in the family of God. 2. The Baptism in the Holy Spirit which is later whereby the believer is in dewed with power for witnessing and the exercise of the gifts of the Holy Spirit.

Hi
I am new here but I would like to say that according to the Apostle Paul there is only one baptism for this dispensation of grace.
Ephesians 4:5
5 One Lord, one faith, one baptism,
Water Baptism was part of the law to become a priest and since the four Gospels are about preparing the nation of Israel for Jesus's reign on earth they were to be water baptized to be eligible. Jesus came to the nation Israel to prepare them for the rule of the Kingdom but they ended up rejecting him and the Holy Spirit when they killed him on the cross and then stoned Stephen to death. God put the Kingdom program on hold and called out the Apostle Paul to be the vessel to the Gentiles. We are now in the Dispensation of Grace and water baptism is not for us. We are saved by grace and grace alone. A person today only needs to believe in the death burial and resurrection of Jesus to be saved.

thanks
Mike W

 

[TRUTH over TRADITION]

God is no respecter of persons.

What does this statement mean? Does it mean God gives everyone the same gifts, advantages, etc? Or does it mean something entirely different? In the context of Act 10:34, Peter made this statement to illustrate that God accepts all men that fear Him and works righteousness no matter therir ethnicity. To use this declaration in any other manner is adding to the Word written by Luke who quoted Peter.

 

[stovebolts]

Brother Mike and Truth over Tradition,

Let us not let the spirit of this conversation turn into a sounding board to either promote or deny the speaking in tongues as this is not the appropriate forum for debate.

Welcome [MENTION=96925]Mike W[/MENTION],
If you wish to debate your case, please put forth your argument in the Apologetic forum.

Everyone else,
Lets try to sway this discussion more toward the scriptures and perhaps even some good ole exegesis. I know, I know.. I'm guilty as well for not sticking closer to scripture. But lets see if we can't pull this thread back into the realm of a good Bible Study, and not that of debate.

Thank you!

 

[Brother Mike]

2Ch_19:7 Wherefore now let the fear of the LORD be upon you; take heed and do it: for there is no iniquity with the LORD our God, nor respect of persons, nor taking of gifts.

Pro_28:21 To have respect of persons is not good: for for a piece of bread that man will transgress.

Rom_2:11 For there is no respect of persons with God.

Sometimes You post amazing things, other times it's like you have your head stuck in a bag and can't see out. I see a lot of it is not understanding how Spiritual things work, or How God works. That seems to be your big disconnect.

I believe that my efforts are just seed planted and that by God's increase things will dawn on you that never have before. That is what will happen.

Pro_28:21 To have respect of persons is not good: for for a piece of bread that man will transgress.

If God told you that you have to roast in hell and could not accept Jesus but allow me to. It IS NOT GOOD

If Jesus said those that believe on my name shall speak in tongues but told you that believing on his name won't help you, though it helped me, IS NOT GOOD.

If Jesus said how much more shall YOUR father give the Holy Spirit to those that ask, but told you its' for everyone but YOU, It IS NOT GOOD.

If by His stripes we are healed and Long life will He satisfy us, Healing my son on the last possibly day He was suppose to be dead, but make you bury your son........ It IS NOT GOOD

If God allows me to pray in tongues for others, and move things in the natural we can't see, but tells you that your stuck with just what you can figure out on your own.......It IS NOT GOOD

If God said it in His word by example, or something He done for someone else, then YOU and I can count on that. The confidence is that God never changes, EVER!!!

God is good, and If I felt I was wasting my time, I would not even care, nor even consider a response back, but someone that takes the word seriously is hard to find. It's hard to find someone that reads it and just believes it. Now if God would just open your eyes to the Power part of being a child of God, because it's suppose to be in Power and demonstration. If it's not, then it has to be us, not connecting to what God said.

That is the thing about faith, we can't see, or have proof but what God said, but just to step out. We understand up to the Point we have to believe to have received.

A person today only needs to believe in the death burial and resurrection of Jesus to be saved.

It's just not about Me, Me, Me.................. It's about the power to help others besides some Jesus loves you literature left on their door.

Let us not let the spirit of this conversation turn into a sounding board to either promote or deny the speaking in tongues as this is not the appropriate forum for debate.

Not debating, just getting a few things cleared up is all. I don't see a disagreement that would be considered debating, but more of a clarification of terms.

Mike.

 

[Chopper]

A person today only needs to believe in the death burial and resurrection of Jesus to be saved.

Hmmm, Thats a new perspective. You might want to do a little more study on baptism.

 

[gr8grace]

I would just like to add, that that is not a new perspective. It may be a perspective that many do not believe, but it is not new.

“Whosoever believes in me will not perish, but have everlasting life.” Jn 3:15

“For God so loved the world that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believes in him will not perish, but have everlasting life.” Jn 3:16

“He that believes on him is not condemned, but he that believes not is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.” Jn 3:18

“He that believes the Son has everlasting life, and he that believes not the Son, shall not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him.” Jn 3:36

“And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one that which sees the Son, and believes on him, will have everlasting life, and I will raise him up on the last day.”Jn 6:40

“Truly I say unto you, he that believes on me, has everlasting life.” Jn 6:47

You have never heard of this perspective?

 

[Mike S]

water baptism while an ordinance is only an outward sign of an inward transformation where the true baptism of salvation occurs.

I'd like to suggest that water baptism is more than just an outward sign. Baptism has three aspects to it.

1. Baptism is the initiatory sign by which we are admitted to the fellowship of the Church of Jesus Christ. We are en grafted into Jesus and may be considered "Children of God".
2. Baptism is also a sign that we have truly repented. In the early church, deacons would spend as much as 7 days explaining repentance to a seeker so that they were sure the seeker was
serious. Repentance always precedes baptism.
3. Baptism is an outward sign to all men that a person has repented, believed on Jesus, and is not ashamed of his conversion.

Might I suggest that there are two baptisms. 1. Water baptism whereby the Holy Spirit indwells us and places us in the family of God. 2. The Baptism in the Holy Spirit which is later whereby the believer is in dewed with power for witnessing and the exercise of the gifts of the Holy Spirit.

Hi
I am new here but I would like to say that according to the Apostle Paul there is only one baptism for this dispensation of grace.
Ephesians 4:5
5 One Lord, one faith, one baptism,
Water Baptism was part of the law to become a priest and since the four Gospels are about preparing the nation of Israel for Jesus's reign on earth they were to be water baptized to be eligible. Jesus came to the nation Israel to prepare them for the rule of the Kingdom but they ended up rejecting him and the Holy Spirit when they killed him on the cross and then stoned Stephen to death. God put the Kingdom program on hold and called out the Apostle Paul to be the vessel to the Gentiles. We are now in the Dispensation of Grace and water baptism is not for us. We are saved by grace and grace alone. A person today only needs to believe in the death burial and resurrection of Jesus to be saved.

thanks
Mike W

Welcome to CF!

I agree, salvation is by grace alone. Baptism is a sign of salvation already recieved, it's neither essential to nor sufficient for salvation, it is the "ordinary means" that God designates for applying the benefits of the work of Christ in human lives.

 

[JohnD]

indeed. Just like the Bible says. The Baptism of the Holy Spirit.

And do you think that perhaps this could occur in the water where we, as Paul would say, "die, buried and raised in His Resurrection?" Could this possibly be part of that grand and expansive "One Baptism"?

In other words, does baptism have to be an either or, or can it encompass a bigger picture?

Um, not according to John the Baptist. He contrasted water baptism to the baptism Jesus would give us the baptism of the Holy Spirit.

So, are you limiting the Holy Spirit to say that the Holy Spirit cannot be given when one is immersed in the water?

When then are you assured that you have received the Holy Spirit?

I am not limiting anything. I am simply quoting scripture, StoveBolts.

In answer to your next question when I read the scriptures about such assurance.

1 John 4:17 (NASB95)
17 By this, love is perfected with us, so that we may have confidence in the day of judgment; because as He is, so also are we in this world.

1 John 2:5 (NASB95)
5 but whoever keeps His word, in him the love of God has truly been perfected. By this we know that we are in Him:

John 3:16-18 (NASB95)
16 “For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life.
17 “For God did not send the Son into the world to judge the world, but that the world might be saved through Him.
18 “He who believes in Him is not judged; he who does not believe has been judged already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

Ephesians 2:8-10 (NASB95)
8 For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God;
9 not as a result of works, so that no one may boast.
10 For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand so that we would walk in them.

1 John 1:5-2:6 (NASB95)
5 This is the message we have heard from Him and announce to you, that God is Light, and in Him there is no darkness at all.
6 If we say that we have fellowship with Him and yet walk in the darkness, we lie and do not practice the truth;
7 but if we walk in the Light as He Himself is in the Light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus His Son cleanses us from all sin.
8 If we say that we have no sin, we are deceiving ourselves and the truth is not in us.
9 If we confess our sins, He is faithful and righteous to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
10 If we say that we have not sinned, we make Him a liar and His word is not in us.

1 My little children, I am writing these things to you so that you may not sin. And if anyone sins, we have an Advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous;
2 and He Himself is the propitiation for our sins; and not for ours only, but also for those of the whole world.
3 By this we know that we have come to know Him, if we keep His commandments.
4 The one who says, “I have come to know Him,” and does not keep His commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him;
5 but whoever keeps His word, in him the love of God has truly been perfected. By this we know that we are in Him:
6 the one who says he abides in Him ought himself to walk in the same manner as He walked.

You may want liver quivers, ruby rainbows, tongues, etc. I'd rather have God's Word for it.

 

[Brother Mike]

Now I believe that what you were driving at (correct me if I'm wrong!) is that tongues and perhaps healing were gifts to the Apostles and not necessarily designed for us. Here is your scripture requested that answers directly the question of why these gifts are for us also and not just for the Apostles.

Acts 10: 34
34 Then Peter opened his mouth, and said, Of a truth I perceive that God is no respecter of persons:/(KJV)

Well, Peter already Myth Busted the idea that all these tongues and things were done away with the Apostles.

Act 3:12 And when Peter saw it, he answered unto the people, Ye men of Israel, why marvel ye at this? or why look ye so earnestly on us, as though by our own power or holiness we had made this man to walk?

Act 3:16 And his name through faith in his name hath made this man strong, whom ye see and know: yea, the faith which is by him hath given him this perfect soundness in the presence of you all.

So any persons that believes the Acts of the Apostles have gone away, Also believes that faith in the name of Jesus is not possible either.

That should be self explanatory. If that is not, then you;ll have to change your screen name to Tradition over Truth. I'm kidding of course, good screen name.

I am believing that we won't have to change the name.

Mike.

 

[Mike W]

water baptism while an ordinance is only an outward sign of an inward transformation where the true baptism of salvation occurs.

I'd like to suggest that water baptism is more than just an outward sign. Baptism has three aspects to it.

1. Baptism is the initiatory sign by which we are admitted to the fellowship of the Church of Jesus Christ. We are en grafted into Jesus and may be considered "Children of God".
2. Baptism is also a sign that we have truly repented. In the early church, deacons would spend as much as 7 days explaining repentance to a seeker so that they were sure the seeker was
serious. Repentance always precedes baptism.
3. Baptism is an outward sign to all men that a person has repented, believed on Jesus, and is not ashamed of his conversion.

Might I suggest that there are two baptisms. 1. Water baptism whereby the Holy Spirit indwells us and places us in the family of God. 2. The Baptism in the Holy Spirit which is later whereby the believer is in dewed with power for witnessing and the exercise of the gifts of the Holy Spirit.

Hi
I am new here but I would like to say that according to the Apostle Paul there is only one baptism for this dispensation of grace.
Ephesians 4:5
5 One Lord, one faith, one baptism,
Water Baptism was part of the law to become a priest and since the four Gospels are about preparing the nation of Israel for Jesus's reign on earth they were to be water baptized to be eligible. Jesus came to the nation Israel to prepare them for the rule of the Kingdom but they ended up rejecting him and the Holy Spirit when they killed him on the cross and then stoned Stephen to death. God put the Kingdom program on hold and called out the Apostle Paul to be the vessel to the Gentiles. We are now in the Dispensation of Grace and water baptism is not for us. We are saved by grace and grace alone. A person today only needs to believe in the death burial and resurrection of Jesus to be saved.

thanks
Mike W

Welcome to CF!

I agree, salvation is by grace alone. Baptism is a sign of salvation already recieved, it's neither essential to nor sufficient for salvation, it is the "ordinary means" that God designates for applying the benefits of the work of Christ in human lives.

Welcome to CF!

I agree, salvation is by grace alone. Baptism is a sign of salvation already recieved, it's neither essential to nor sufficient for salvation, it is the "ordinary means" that God designates for applying the benefits of the work of Christ in human lives.

Can you show me scripture where the Bible says water baptism is the "ordinary means" for applying the benefits of work. Can you answer why God sent the original Apostle's to go and baptize but yet God told the Apostle Paul he was not sent to baptize?

thanks
Mike W

 

[Mike S]

Hi
I am new here but I would like to say that according to the Apostle Paul there is only one baptism for this dispensation of grace.
Ephesians 4:5
5 One Lord, one faith, one baptism,
Water Baptism was part of the law to become a priest and since the four Gospels are about preparing the nation of Israel for Jesus's reign on earth they were to be water baptized to be eligible. Jesus came to the nation Israel to prepare them for the rule of the Kingdom but they ended up rejecting him and the Holy Spirit when they killed him on the cross and then stoned Stephen to death. God put the Kingdom program on hold and called out the Apostle Paul to be the vessel to the Gentiles. We are now in the Dispensation of Grace and water baptism is not for us. We are saved by grace and grace alone. A person today only needs to believe in the death burial and resurrection of Jesus to be saved.

thanks
Mike W

Welcome to CF!

I agree, salvation is by grace alone. Baptism is a sign of salvation already recieved, it's neither essential to nor sufficient for salvation, it is the "ordinary means" that God designates for applying the benefits of the work of Christ in human lives.

Welcome to CF!

I agree, salvation is by grace alone. Baptism is a sign of salvation already recieved, it's neither essential to nor sufficient for salvation, it is the "ordinary means" that God designates for applying the benefits of the work of Christ in human lives.

Can you show me scripture where the Bible says water baptism is the "ordinary means" for applying the benefits of work. Can you answer why God sent the original Apostle's to go and baptize but yet God told the Apostle Paul he was not sent to baptize?

thanks
Mike W

Not water baptism...baptism.

In any event, I have no intention of debating it with you. You have a different view...fine.

May Goid bless you.

 

[Mike W]

Hmmm, Thats a new perspective. You might want to do a little more study on baptism

I have studied baptism. A believer will be sealed at the time of believing the Gospel of Grace. Water Baptism was for the Gospel of the Kingdom because they are going to be priest in the coming Kingdom. This was promised to the nation of Israel all throughout the Old Testament. That program is now on hold and we are in the Dispensation of Grace. Our messenger is the Apostle Paul and he says God need NOT send him to water baptize. He was sent to preach the Gospel. That Gospel being found in Paul's letters given to him directly from God himself. We are under the "mystery" not under the prophecy program. So much confusion among Christians today because they mix the two dispensation together.

Thanks
Mike W

 

[Mike W]

Re: THE BAPTISM, with, of, or in, THE HOLY SPIRIT












You see, the Old Testament is the New Testament concealed, and the New Testament is the Old Testament revealed. If you pay close attention to the OT, you will see Jesus on just about every page if not every page

Hi Edward
I agree that the Old Testament is the New Testament concealed. The Old Testament prophecy were all about the Gospel of the Kingdom. Israel was promised to be priests and kings in the future 1,000 year reign of Christ on earth. That is one reason for water baptism because that was a requirement. Jesus was water baptized because he had to fulfill the law. That being said we are not under the Old Covenant or the New Covenant. We are under the mystery Gospel given to Paul and kept secret from any Old Testament prophets. Therefore you will find the New Covenant in the Old Testament but you will NOT find the mystery that God kept hid in himself there. The New Covenant is between God and Israel. We as believers today are part of the Body of Christ. We have a heavenly home while they have an earthly inheritance. God DOES NOT and WILL NOT break His promise to the nation of Israel.

thanks
Mike W

 

[TRUTH over TRADITION]

Now I believe that what you were driving at (correct me if I'm wrong!) is that tongues and perhaps healing were gifts to the Apostles and not necessarily designed for us.

Not exactly Ed. What I am implying is that the promise of being filled with God's Holy Spirit was a promise that was to be fulfilled in the generation that lived in the "last days" (Hebrews 1:2, Acts 2:16-17). The promise of the Spirit was extended to all that lived at that time, not just the apostles. Nowhere do we read of this same promise of the gift of the Spirit being made to those not a part of the generation of the "last days" other than perhaps after the resurrection. (For more on the subject of the Last Days see: http://www.christianforums.net/showthread.php?t=33316&highlight=).

Here is your scripture requested that answers directly the question of why these gifts are for us also and not just for the Apostles. Acts 10: 34 34 Then Peter opened his mouth, and said, Of a truth I perceive that God is no respecter of persons:/(KJV) That should be self explanatory. If that is not, then you;ll have to change your screen name to Tradition over Truth. I'm kidding of course, good screen name.

The subject of the Acts 10 text is not about spiritual gifts, it's about what Peter said in verse 35 and that is God accepting any and all who fear Him and practices righteousness no matter the person's ethnicity. Remember, the Jews, Peter included, had some difficulty with fully accepting and embracing gentile believers and needed to be given visions, reprimanded, and reminded that God was not of the same mindset as those who made distinctions based on race. That's a lot of what Acts 10 is about.

 

[Chopper]

I am new here but I would like to say that according to the Apostle Paul there is only one baptism for this dispensation of grace.
Ephesians 4:5

Hi Mike W, welcome to the Forum....I answered your statement about "one baptism" in post #19. I hope you were not thinking that I believe in "Baptismal regeneration" because I don't. I totally disagree with your statement that "baptism is not for us" in the dispensation of grace.

 

[TRUTH over TRADITION]

Acts 10:34, God is no respecter of persons. This means that no one is special, that all of us humans have the same promises, advantages, and opportunity within the body of Christ. Anything given to one man is available for all. Anything less is a lie.

What I'm saying is that it is quite a stretch to take Acts 10:34 from its context and use it to make the claim above. Peter explains clearly and succinctly exactly what he meant about God's impartiality mentioned in verse 34 in the very next verse. Why not accept what he said and not read additional things into it? We know that God the statement about God dolling out the same advantages and promises to all is not accurate by simply looking at the inequality from person to person living in this world as well as the fact that in scripture God has always made distinctions from the one between Adam and Eve, to Jacob and Esau, to Judah having the kingship and his brothers descendant not, to Levi's seed having exclusivity to the old priesthood, to the apostles' promises of sitting on 12 thrones, etc.

Then where is the qualifying statements regarding that?

There's no need for a qualifying statement because the text gives us so much more. Readers are given Peter's full vision which shows us what affected his line of thinking and led him to a better understanding. His vision and his explanation of it lays the groundwork upon which the statement he made in verse 34 is to be understood.

If what you say is true, then the bible is a liar. It says that "ask and you shall receive." There's no ifs ands or buts.

How do my statements on this topic make the Bible out to be a liar in what it says in Luke 11 and Matthew 7 about asking and receiving from God? In those texts Jesus told his contemporaries that their persistance would pay off and that God would not only answer their requests, but answer in the affirmative by giving them what they asked for, revealing what they searched for, and opening things up to them. Joel said God would pour out His Spirit on all flesh in the last days, Jesus said if his contemporaries asked for it they'd receeve it, and Acts confirms that they did in fact receive God's Spirit.

The problem here is not with the bible being called a liar, but rather with the idea that the bible writers were applying these words to us as opposed to those of Jesus' generation. There's only a problem with the Bible when we read ourselves into those promises. Apply the words to the 'last day' audience and we have no such problems.

 

[Chopper]

we are not under the Old Covenant or the New Covenant.

Not under the new covenant?? 1 Cor. 11:23-26. We have NT disciples, Jesus, and the new covenant. Thanks but I'll stay with the Church age being in the new covenant.

 

[TRUTH over TRADITION]

So how does that exclude us? You're being too legalistic. Are we not grafted into the vine? Is there not one body? Even if what you say is true (which I disagree with)...what makes you think that we're not in the last days?

Great thought provoking questions!!

I'd add this question as well; Where do we post-last day peoples fit into the plan of God according to the scriptures? That is the big question for us that can help us understand whether or not we are heirs according to the promise, as well as whether or not we are part of the body of Christ, and whether we live in the last days?

 

[Chopper]

totopic If we are through with my thread on the words , of, with and in as it relates to the Holy Spirit's baptism, I suggest someone starting a new thread. A lot of posts are not centered on that original thread.

 

[stovebolts]

Thread moved to the Ye Olde Aplogetics forum