The Biblical case against Annihilationism

[guibox]

Firstly, it really isn't a strong argument by guibox since "soul" has at least a couple of different connotations in the OT, particularly in the Psalms. It is these nuances of different Hebrew and Greek words that continually gets overlooked by guibox.;)

Please show us where in the OT and the Hebrew knowledge of the afterlife that the term 'soul' is ever used as an immortal substance that consciously survives death?

You won't find it, Free. This is because the Hebrews believed in the wholism of man. Dualism is a Greek concept.

I encourage you to look through Bible Study (I think around the 6th or 7th page) and find 'The Soul in the Bible' thread and look at it again.

Secondly, I sure hope you're not implying that our getting the idea of an immaterial soul from the Greeks (if that is in fact where it stems from - ir is likely though not necessarily so) makes that idea false. ;)

This is exactly where Hellenistic Judaism and later early Christianity did get the concpet of the immortal soul from, Free: The Greeks. The Greeks influenced the intertestament Jews heavily and even some of the early church fathers admit their Platonic influence.

 

[SputnikBoy]

I have some questions for those who do not believe in eternal Hell.

I'll take a shot at this and be as brief as I need to be.

1. Do you believe that the beast, the antichrist, the angels that followed satan, and satan will be in eternal torment? That Hell is a place at all?

I don't believe that ANYONE will be in eternal torment. Eternal torment implies cruelty beyond reason. Even if we were to apply the absolute definition of 'justice' as in equality between crime and punishment (i.e. 20 years crime = 20 years punishment), eternal torment would be nothing short of an act of lunacy perpetrated by a sadist.

No, I don't believe in hell as being a literal 'place of torment'. Hell is 'the grave' and gehenna (the local garbage dump in Jesus' time) is used in a figurative sense to describe the grave of the unrighteous.

2. Do you believe that unbelievers will be ressurected?

Yes, for the sake of justice. They will know that eternal life is not available to them and that this was determined by their own choice.

3. Do you believe you are an eternal spirit in a body presently decaying?

I don't think so. Immortality comes at the end of time.

4. Do you believe you, as a believer, will receive a new body...immortality?

Yes.

5. Do you believe that the words 'eternal', 'life', "forever and ever' as they pertain to the state of a believer in Scripture, are literal meanings?

Yes.

6. Do you believe that Scripture teaches that the blessings of Heaven, and the torment of Hell, are the same duration?

Yes. There is eternal life and there is eternal death. Both are eternal. I have difficulty in others not being able to catch on to this fact.

If not, then why would it be different, what Scriptures indicate that?

There are many scriptures (that have been presented on this board many times) indicating that the 'heaven-bound' will live forever. Alternatively there are many scriptures (that have also been presented on this board many times) indicating that 'the lost' will be dead forever.

And why are the meanings of words like, 'eternal', 'life', and 'forever and ever' literal when describing Heaven, and the state of believers?

'Eternal', 'forever and ever' are both literal for the saved (heaven or life) AND for the unsaved (hell or death). It's the 'eternal torment' part of hell that is not literal. Those that are eternally 'perished' or eternally 'destroyed' cannot be 'eternally punished' in a literal sense. They CAN, however, be 'eternally punished' in a symbolic sense.

7. Do you believe that Matthew 10:28, where it says to fear Him who can kill the soul and destroy the body is accurate?

Yes.

And, if so, does this not correspond with the argument that satan, the deceiver, is responsible for killing souls for an eternity?

Satan doesn't have the capabilities. Only God does. Satan wouldn't be responsible for destroying us anyway. The choice between life or death is ours.

Does this verse indicate that even though a person is being killed, that they continue to exist?

Not sure what you mean but the righteous are the only ones who continue to exist. The unrighteous are destroyed.

8. Do you believe that Heaven is a literal place? An eternal place?

I believe so. And if the question that you DIDN'T ask is, "Do you believe that hell is a literal place? An eternal place?" ...I would answer "no" and "no." One who has been destroyed doesn't require a literal place in which to reside, do they?

 

[Soma-Sight]

Soma, you just quoted (well, sorta quoted LOL) a Universalist. That's a nono... besides, are you for Annihilationism or Universalism? You can't be both.

I can tell you one thing...

I am NOT for Eternal Torment for infinite time....

It makes no sense and totally contradicts the Nature of God as I know Him...

Christ even ministered to those in Hell to those that forget.....

. He was put to death in the body but made alive by the Spirit, 19through whom[d] also he went and preached to the spirits in prison 20who disobeyed long ago when God waited patiently in the days of Noah while the ark was being built. In it only a few people, eight in all, were saved through water, 21and this water symbolizes baptism that now saves you alsoâ€â€not the removal of dirt from the body but the pledge[e] of a good conscience toward God. It saves you by the resurrection of Jesus Christ, 22who has gone into heaven and is at God's right handâ€â€with angels, authorities and powers in submission to him.
[/b]

 

[SputnikBoy]

I responded to some questions asked by lovely several days ago. Just wondered whether I got a yay or a nay.

 

[ÃÂoppleganger]

:o

 

[CP_Mike]

Not to mention the fact that a very strong (and unrefuted as far as I know) argument has been forward by guibox (and others) that the word "soul" as used by the Hebrews generally, and in the OT in particular, has always been used to denote the "whole person", not an immaterial entity that inhabits the body. That latter idea, by the way, we apparently got from the Greeks.

Firstly, it really isn't a strong argument by guibox since "soul" has at least a couple of different connotations in the OT, particularly in the Psalms. It is these nuances of different Hebrew and Greek words that continually gets overlooked by guibox.

Secondly, I sure hope you're not implying that our getting the idea of an immaterial soul from the Greeks (if that is in fact where it stems from - ir is likely though not necessarily so) makes that idea false. ;)

Hi Free,
You are right, 'soul' in the OT and NT does have a variety of senses and meanings, but there is much evidence that Greek thinking influenced early Christian and Jewish thinking. First came Alexander the Great and the teachings of Plato came with them to Israel. In the early church, even Origen stated "I accept Plato's view that the soul is immortal" clearly shows a link.
The basic problem with taking the view that the "soul is the real self" and reading that into scripture distorts the original meanings.
Of course, "soul" is used to denote the whole person. The Hebrew idea is that people are "unities", not something like the Greeks though about splitting into parts like a neopolitan icecream. There are verses which state what the 'soul is' . Here is one..

DT 12:23 The life (nephesh, soul) is in the blood..

Now if you read the Greek idea of soul into that, then it comes up with total nonsense..

 

[ÃÂoppleganger]

:fadein:

 

[Vic C.]

Whats the millenium about then? Aren't those people to be given a chance they never received? To be disciplined in His ways? The good sower sowed seeds a parable says, and the devil came along and sowed tares in the good man's field. Tares represent evil, they will flourish till harvest time comes, when they will be gathered up and burned. A burnt weed leaves nuthing but ash. Blotting out a name from the Book of Life means, it never existed, like white out. It's gone completely! The End. God doesn't want these people in his kingdom. Satan is a terrorist and a sicko sado-masochist. God aint.

I'll give this a shot. I believe there will be two groups. Those who are in Christ Jesus and those who come out of God's Wrath, comprised of surviving (saved) Israel and those who make the sheep and goat judgement cut.

Mat 25:33 And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left.
Mat 25:34 Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:
Mat 25:35 For I was an hungered, and ye gave me meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me in:
Mat 25:36 Naked, and ye clothed me: I was sick, and ye visited me: I was in prison, and ye came unto me.
Mat 25:37 Then shall the righteous answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungered, and fed thee? or thirsty, and gave thee drink?
Mat 25:38 When saw we thee a stranger, and took thee in? or naked, and clothed thee?
Mat 25:39 Or when saw we thee sick, or in prison, and came unto thee?
Mat 25:40 And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me.

These ones will be pardoned based on how they treated the Chosen Ones in the last days of the 70th. week, (or the Wrath of God)

I also believe they will still have to face the Great White Throne Judgement. Still working out the details of all this, as I cound have some or all of it wrong, but that how I understand it.

Hope that helps.

 

[Vic C.]

ONE LAST QUESTION FROM ME!
9). The Number of Divine Manifestation
Does the clay tell the potter what it wants to be? Just Food for thought!

Ah, nice one. Clay is porous. A clay pot will loose it's water if not continually filled up with water. Eventually it will dry up and become hardened and brittle.

John 4:14 But whosoever drinketh of the water that I shall give him shall never thirst; but the water that I shall give him shall be in him a well of water springing up into everlasting life.

 

[ÃÂoppleganger]

:P

 

[Relic]

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Question 6. Do you believe that Scripture teaches that the blessings of Heaven, and the torment of Hell, are the same duration?

The spirit is not annihilated but lives outside of heaven.

Revelation 22:14-15 KJV
14 Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city. 15 For without are dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie.


Revelation 22:14-15 NAS
14 Blessed are those who wash their robes, so that they may have the right to the tree of life, and may enter by the gates into the city.
15 Outside are the dogs and the sorcerers and the immoral persons and the murderers and the idolaters, and everyone who loves and practices lying.

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[Vic C.]

The spirit is not annihilated but lives outside of heaven.

Eccl 12:7 Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.

 

[Relic]

The spirit is not annihilated but lives outside of heaven.

Eccl 12:7 Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.

Yes, and what God does with that spirit, (as consequence of their own doing, their own choices) is the controversy. aye? :wink:


Isaiah 45:6-7
6 That they may know from the rising of the sun, and from the west, that there is none beside me. I am the LORD, and there is none else.
7 I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.



Revelation 22:14-15 KJV
14 Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city. 15 For without are dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie.


Revelation 22:14-15 NAS
14 Blessed are those who wash their robes, so that they may have the right to the tree of life, and may enter by the gates into the city.
15 Outside are the dogs and the sorcerers and the immoral persons and the murderers and the idolaters, and everyone who loves and practices lying.




Eternal torment Proved... annihilation refuted
http://www.bible.ca/su-annihilation-refuted.htm




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[cj]

Yes, and what God does with that spirit, (as consequence of their own doing, their own choices) is the controversy. aye?

A man's spirit can be likened to Jacob's ladder,... it is the connecting point between God and man in the inward parts of a man.

It is not the spirit that suffers but the soul.

In Genesis we can see where it tells us that God breathed into man and by this breath man became a living soul.

Yet, man later became dead. What happen that changed things?

Man lost the way to the tree of life,... meaning this, man lost the way to God's breath, that which causes man to become living.

And what is "living",.... knowing and reflecting God; hence the likening of the spirit to the ladder, as a ladder is something on which that which is above can be brought to that which is below, and below can be brought above.


Anyway, it is the soul of a man that will suffer in hell.


In love,
cj

 

[yesha]

The body and soul, hence the person is destroyed in hell, their spirit, which came from God, returns to God. The first death is separation of body from soul, the person from his flesh, then the flesh is destroyed because of sin. The second the spirit is what separates, and both body and soul are destroyed in hell. Hence the person is eternally destroyed. Or simply, they are dead.
That's how I understand it.

 

[Relic]

Yes, and what God does with that spirit, (as consequence of their own doing, their own choices) is the controversy. aye?

It is not the spirit that suffers but the soul.

In Genesis we can see where it tells us that God breathed into man and by this breath man became a living soul.

Yet, man later became dead. What happen that changed things?

Man lost the way to the tree of life,... meaning this, man lost the way to God's breath, that which causes man to become living.

And what is "living",.... knowing and reflecting God; hence the likening of the spirit to the ladder, as a ladder is something on which that which is above can be brought to that which is below, and below can be brought above.

Anyway, it is the soul of a man that will suffer in hell.

In love,
cj

cj, I don't disagree with you totally, but only partly.

It is not the spirit that suffers but the soul.

It is in my understanding the following (If I am in error, please do comment) :

The devil is composed only of spirit and will be cast into the Lake of Fire.

It is "that spirit" which is the influence of evil , in which, man partook of while being on earth in his fleshly body (a living soul).
The body without the spirit is just a lump fo clay. Yes, without the spirit living in it thereby makingit a living soul(body/spirit), it is just dust from which it was made, it shall return.

That imortal body, which we seek, is given to those who are IN Christ. Where in the bible does it say those who are NOT IN Christ recieve an immortal body that is made up of flesh and spirit (soul) ?

It is through Christ that we recieve the "immortal" Else, we are mortal in flesh and the soul of man is not that which lives eternal but is dead flesh without the "spirit". The spirit of man is that which is judged. Not the flesh.

The flesh is just a vehicle from which the spirit conducts it's being.

living soul. as opposed to a dead soul is what too many people are in controversy over.

God help us all come to see truth. And oh yes, we will, indeed, when we are no longer in these mortal bodies. 8-)
The truth will set you free, indeed.


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[Relic]

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It is in my understanding of the following: (If I am in error, please do comment. )

We must not forget...
'That which is unseen by the eyes of man,
is what is being tormented in that lake of fire.
It is "the spirit" that is responsible for the
embodiment of evil it acted on while in a body'.

Revelation 14:10-11
10 he will be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels and in the presence of the Lamb.
11 "And the smoke of their torment goes up forever and ever; and they have no rest day and night, those who worship the beast and his image, and whoever receives the mark of his name."

Who are those? Those are the spirits of them who died, their bodies died, their spirits live eternally.

John 11: 43-44
43 And when he thus had spoken, he cried with a loud voice, Lazarus, come forth. 44 And he that was dead came forth, bound hand and foot with graveclothes: and his face was bound about with a napkin. Jesus saith unto them, Loose him, and let him go.

Lazarus heard the voice of Jesus because his body was dead, but his spirit was conscious. Jesus woke up the dead "soul" by calling out to resurrect the 'spirit' He called back to life, that dead body, making it a living soul, once again.

Genesis 2:7
7 And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.

The body is not become a soul until it is embodied with the spirit. It is nothing but a lump of clay If it is without, as it is said, "the breath", "the spirit" of life, put in them.


Revelation 20:10
And the devil who deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are also; and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.



Like I said, this whole thread is just an endless circle of two sides to an argument.

Annihilation vs. eternal torment.

Endless, just absolutely endless as long as we are on this earth in this stage of existence. :-?

The annihilist want to believe that God wipes out totally that which is the opposite of Him. When in fact, He does not wipe out evil, He puts it in it's place.
When God says without end, He means it... without end.


Yep, I have to agree with Einstein:

“Religion without science is blind, and science without religion is lame.â€Â
So I ask you this...
How can a positive exist if it's opposite is annihilated?
The laws of gravity prove there is a place for the positive and the negative in all of existence.
How can light be if it does not have an opposite to overpower?
How can there be knowledge good without knowing evil?
Good overpowers the evil, it does not annihilate it.
The force of Gods' Good Will, is what we as humans dont understand.
God's force of Good is that which rules over the evil. In other words. It is by the divine grace and Mercy of our God Father Creator of ALL that we are blessed with being in the presence of His Good Will and we seek that which is of this "heavenly" because of it's "comfort" it being a place of rest and peace away from that which we as mere humans see and know as what is termed evil, wicked, etc.

We cannot think God would Annihilate for the sake of obliterating,
We can only think in terms of a separation from that which is termed as being torment.

God created the Laws of Order in all things, and I believe they are relative to the Laws pertaining to the Spirit. Jesus called forth that which was out of the Laws of Order created by the One and only God. Breath of life spoken forth into the physical realm. Laws of order manifested in the material realm. The Heavenly(spiritual) brought to the earth (material). The spirit without the physical manifestation is in the place God set for them, heaven and the Lake of Fire. Fire which burns for purification, or fire that one is stuck in and comes not out of it because they reject the power of the Spirit of Christ Jesus' Godly righteousness, That Good Will of God the Father which is the opposite of evil will.

Heaven is the place for the righteous
The Lake of Fire is a place for the unrighteous.
While we are alive on this earth in these material bodies, we either come out of the fire by being cleansed by it, or we are stuck in it from stubborn hardheartedness of the will.
God does not take away our will to choose. He does give us over to that will "the spirit" in us that has been focused on.
It is by the "renewing of the mind" that we are made pure and holy. No other way does it come except by the mercy and grace of God "having" the Spirit OF Christ Jesus working IN and THROUGH us.
We have not because we ask not... Hence the "freedom" of choice.



see also:
http://www.christianforums.net/viewtopi ... 995#238995


Eternal torment Proved... annihilation refuted
http://www.bible.ca/su-annihilation-refuted.htm

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Job 27:1-23
Job 27:5-10
5 God forbid that I should justify you: till I die I will not remove mine integrity from me.
6 My righteousness I hold fast, and will not let it go: my heart shall not reproach me so long as I live.
7 Let mine enemy be as the wicked, and he that riseth up against me as the unrighteous.
8 For what is the hope of the hypocrite, though he hath gained, when God taketh away his soul?
9 Will God hear his cry when trouble cometh upon him?
10 Will he delight himself in the Almighty? will he always call upon God?

Job 28:1-28

Job 28:28
28 And unto man he said, Behold, the fear of the LORD, that is wisdom; and to depart from evil is understanding.


Yes, please do correct me if I am in error.

Peace.


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[guibox]

Relic,

Ultimately, your problems in understand are this:

1) Your misinterpretation of what this 'spirit' is
2) That wicked man has an immortal 'spirit' or 'soul'
3) That separation for torment instead of annihilation makes God better
4) That God's new creation where 'old things passed away and all things are new' would still have evil existing side by side with good in some cosmic dualism.

God's whole purpose in coming to earth was not to save us from Himself (i.e. the Mr. Hyde portion of Himself) but to save us from sin that man brought into the world, and also to ultimately eradicate sin that has marred the universe.

You would have God continue to allow sin to flourish in some form in His new world. This is false and a complete misunderstanding of the character of God, and His ultimate purpose in the plan of salvation.

God brings down fire to cleanse and eradicate the earth and the heavens.

'And all the works (read sin) therin shall be burnt up'. 'Behold I make a new heaven and a new earth, for the old heaven and earth are passed away. Behold I make all things new. And there shall be no more suffering, nor death nor crying for the former things are passed away.'

This is God's ultimate goal for His new Kingdom. Such things cannot happen when somewhere in His kingdom, suffering, sin crying and torture of His children still exist.

The new perfect kingdom is marred from day one.

 

[Relic]

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guibox,

you misrepresent my message an put words where they shouldn't be.

I haven't the time right now. I will reply later.



guibox, In the meantime, please do be so kind as to tell me

how you interpret this scripture.


Isaiah 45:6-7
6 That they may know from the rising of the sun, and from the west, that there is none beside me. I am the LORD, and there is none else.
7 I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.


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[Relic]

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I couldn't turn my computer off. I had to respond. :-?

Relic,

Ultimately, your problems in understand are this:

1) Your misinterpretation of what this 'spirit' is

I Don't agree with you.

2) That wicked man has an immortal 'spirit' or 'soul'

God does not annihilate the spirit. He puts it in its' rightful place.

And that place is in the same place Satan resides. The lake of Fire.

forever and ever. no rest. without end.

3) That separation for torment instead of annihilation makes God better

I never said it makes God better, please don't put false testimony into what I wrote.
I said it is a place in which God assigned for those who are followers of Satan/Devil.

4) That God's new creation where 'old things passed away and all things are new' would still have evil existing side by side with good in some cosmic dualism.

No not side by side. I said separate from. not side by side. passed away meaning left behind. they are behind not next to or not in front of, they are behind. passed, in the past.

guibox, Now stop that please. :-? :roll: You make suppositions out of what I wrote. You are writing as if these things are IN the Kingdom of Heaven or along side to the Kingdom of "Heaven" .

God's whole purpose in coming to earth was not to save us from Himself (i.e. the Mr. Hyde portion of Himself) but to save us from sin that man brought into the world, and also to ultimately eradicate sin that has marred the universe.

Marred the universe? :o There you go again, putting words where they belong not.

God created ALL things in the universe, therefore it is not marred.
And he gave us free choice, He gave us a WILL to server that which we choose to focus on.
It is a will that is outside of our innate instincts of knowing what is good and not good. Even Jesus grew in wisdom and knowledge showing that man can become perfected IN following the Spirit that IS IN Christ Jesus. He gave us freedom of will to choose between the good the bad and the ugly. (Pun, intended)

From is the key word. We are put in a place away from, out from, that which is evil.

And the sin is from? a focus on a "spirit" of evil. That spirit being.....Satan/Devil

God created evil..... remember?

Isaiah 45:6-7
6 That they may know from the rising of the sun, and from the west, that there is none beside me. I am the LORD, and there is none else.
7 I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.

You would have God continue to allow sin to flourish in some form in His new world. This is false and a complete misunderstanding of the character of God, and His ultimate purpose in the plan of salvation.

Again, it is separate FROM ,

NOT IN the Kingdom of Heaven.

God brings down fire to cleanse and eradicate the earth and the heavens.

eradicate? :-? If you mean ahhihilate, then No, I don't agree. If you mean to remove from earth, then yes, I agree.

God transforms that which was into that which will be.

God purifies, that which was into that which will be.

Thos who reject that process will be put in a place OUTSIDE of that Heavenly Place called the Kingdom of God in which His peace and rest and praise and worship, and the glory is found.

'And all the works (read sin) therin shall be burnt up'. 'Behold I make a new heaven and a new earth, for the old heaven and earth are passed away. Behold I make all things new. And there shall be no more suffering, nor death nor crying for the former things are passed away.'

passed away. and your interpretation of passed away can be interpreted in many ways. as in in the past. Hence, the former things are passed away. Not IN the Heavenly place. They are past, on the OUTSIDE of Heaven.

Revelation 22:14-15
14 Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city. 15 For without are dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie.

This is God's ultimate goal for His new Kingdom. Such things cannot happen when somewhere in His kingdom, suffering, sin crying and torture of His children still exist.

there is none of that IN His New Kingdom. It is separate FROM His Kingdom. It is OUTSIDE of that Kingdom. In it's place "outside of", not inside.

The new perfect kingdom is marred from day one.

Nope not what I relayed in the messages I posted.





Peace.
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