The blasphemous view of Gods Foreknowledge !

[follower of Christ]

Re: The blasphemous views of Calvinism and Hyper-predestination

Hey, I'm not the one saying that the text says "God foreknew those who would accept Him" Which last I checked is adding to the Scripture. ;)

Youve added quite enough ;)
And you are purposefully misrpresenting what I have presented overall here.
I KNOW what Romans 8:29 SAYS, gent....lets quit acting like you are the only one with a bible here ;)

What it SAYS shows a TWO step process that is in complete AGREEMENT that man MUST react to Gods calling him....ie he is NOT assembled on a line with a big "HELL" stamped on his arm ;)

Let's look at John 6 again. Do you take vs. 37 to not be definitive?

"translation: "lets look at ONE small verse that DOESNT present the WHOLE scope of information and lets make THAT one absolute and forget ALL the rest"
;)
No thanks, Todd

They are either both definite or both not definite.

And THAT is your problem, as with others here, you take ONE verse and make it YOUR understanding of it absolute even in the face of overwhelming evidence against that view.
Again, no thanks...I'll accept what the WHOLE scope of evidence presents....some of which is presented below which destroys your understanding of your John passage.
Man DOES have a choice when the Father draws him...that is simply fact from scripture


DOES man have the CHOICE to REJECT God ?
Wm Tipton

Assertions/Conclusions of this article
Simply to show that scripture does support the idea that man does have free will to reject God both before and after having come under this covenant.

Supporting Evidence

Behold, I stand at the door and knock. If anyone hears My voice and opens the door, I will come in to him and will dine with him and he with Me.
(Revelation 3:20 MKJV)

And open the door -
This must be his own act, receiving power for this purpose from his offended Lord, who will not break open the door; he will make no forcible entry.
-Adam Clarke

And open the door -
As one would when a stranger or friend stood and knocked. The meaning here is simply, if anyone will admit me; that is, receive me as a friend. The act of receiving him is as voluntary on our part as it is when we rise and open the door to one who knocks.
-Albert Barnes

and open the door;
or show a readiness for the coming of Christ, look and wait for it, and be like such that will receive him with a welcome:
-John Gill

See that you do not refuse Him who speaks. For if they did not escape, having refused Him who warned them, how much more shall we not escape if we turn away from Him who warns from heaven; whose voice then shook the earth; but now He has promised, saying, "Yet once more I shake not only the earth, but also the heaven."
(Heb 12:25-26)

how shall we escape if we neglect so great a salvation, which at the first began to be spoken by the Lord, and was confirmed unto us by those who heard Him;
(Heb 2:3 MKJV)

For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them.
2 Peter 2:21

For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins, But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.

He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses: Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?
For we know him that hath said, Vengeance belongeth unto me, I will recompense, saith the Lord. And again, The Lord shall judge his people. It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.

But call to remembrance the former days, in which, after ye were illuminated, ye endured a great fight of afflictions; Partly, whilst ye were made a gazingstock both by reproaches and afflictions; and partly, whilst ye became companions of them that were so used. For ye had compassion of me in my bonds, and took joyfully the spoiling of your goods, knowing in yourselves that ye have in heaven a better and an enduring substance.
Cast not away therefore your confidence, which hath great recompence of reward. For ye have need of patience, that, after ye have done the will of God, ye might receive the promise. For yet a little while, and he that shall come will come, and will not tarry.
Now the just shall live by faith: but if any man draw back, my soul shall have no pleasure in him.
But we are not of them who draw back unto perdition; but of them that believe to the saving of the soul.
(Heb 10:26-39 KJV)

The statement "we are not of them who draw back unto perdition" is entirely absurd *IF* 'them' had not actually 'draw back' to perdition.
And the writers EXHORTATION TO these believing Hebrews is VOID of ANY and ALL meaning in REFERRING to these who had 'DRAWN BACK' in his warning to these believers *IF* they could not do the very same thing.

For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost, And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come, If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance;seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame . For the earth which drinketh in the rain that cometh oft upon it, and bringeth forth herbs meet for them by whom it is dressed, receiveth blessing from God: But that which beareth thorns and briers is rejected, and is nigh unto cursing; whose end is to be burned.
But, beloved, we are persuaded better things of you, and things that accompany salvation, though we thus speak.
(Heb 6:4-9 KJV)

Wherefore, holy brethren, partakers of the heavenly calling, consider the Apostle and High Priest of our profession, Christ Jesus; Who was faithful to him that appointed him, as also Moses was faithful in all his house. For this man was counted worthy of more glory than Moses, inasmuch as he who hath builded the house hath more honour than the house. For every house is builded by some man; but he that built all things is God.

And Moses verily was faithful in all his house, as a servant, for a testimony of those things which were to be spoken after; But Christ as a son over his own house; whose house are we, if we hold fast the confidence and the rejoicing of the hope firm unto the end.

Wherefore (as the Holy Ghost saith, To day if ye will hear his voice, Harden not your hearts, as in the provocation, in the day of temptation in the wilderness: When your fathers tempted me, proved me, and saw my works forty years. Wherefore I was grieved with that generation, and said, They do alway err in their heart; and they have not known my ways. So I sware in my wrath, They shall not enter into my rest.)

Take heed, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief, in departing from the living God.
But exhort one another daily, while it is called To day; lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin.

For we are made partakers of Christ, if we hold the beginning of our confidence stedfast unto the end; While it is said, To day if ye will hear his voice, harden not your hearts, as in the provocation. For some, when they had heard, did provoke: howbeit not all that came out of Egypt by Moses. But with whom was he grieved forty years? was it not with them that had sinned, whose carcases fell in the wilderness? And to whom sware he that they should not enter into his rest, but to them that believed not? So we see that they could not enter in because of unbelief.
(Heb 3:1-19 KJV)

 

[follower of Christ]

The blasphemous views of Calvinism and Hyper-predestination

I think we need to start understanding what 'evidence' is ;)


Presenting Evidence
WmTipton

1.0
Heres a bit of a definition of the word 'evidence' from the web

Evidence;
2. something that makes another thing evident; indication; sign
3. something that tends to prove; ground for belief

http://www.yourdictionary.com/evidence

When we read Gods word, preferably ALL of His word and not just parts that seem to back what we want to believe, there are many items throughout that word that 'tend to prove' or 'indicate' and give one 'grounds for belief' certain things.

*IF* this were a jury trial and none of the jurors were biased in one direction or another the evidence laid before them would 'tend to prove' or 'indicate' that these things are true.

Evidence is just that. It 'indicates' or gives 'signs' that something believed is the case.

In a jury trial I suppose that one could decide to ignore the clear evidence as it is presented as a whole.
It would be easy enough for a man to dismiss 99 pieces of evidence that tend to show someone as being innocent and cling to that one piece that MIGHT seem to indicate guilt, but is that actually letting the evidence speak for itself ?
No, that is someone who seems to WANT things to mean what he wants them to and doesnt really care what the evidence actually says.

2.0

Support:
6. To furnish corroborating evidence for


corroborate:
To strengthen or support with other evidence; make more certain

An example would be if I say that Gods word states that we arent to judge those outside the church but are to expel anyone professing to be a brother in Christ who is living in open sin.
The statement alone doesnt mean an single thing without SUPPORT from Gods word...it is presently UNsupported

Here is that SUPPORT;

I wrote to you in the letter not to associate intimately with fornicators; yet not altogether with the fornicators of this world, or with the covetous, or extortioners, or with idolaters; for then you must go out of the world.

But now I have written to you not to associate intimately, if any man called a brother and is either a fornicator, or covetous, or an idolater, or a reviler, or a drunkard, or an extortioner; with such a one not to eat. For what is it to me to also judge those who are outside? Do you not judge those who are inside? But God judges those who are outside. Therefore put out from you the evil one.
(1Co 5:9-13 MKJV)

That is how to properly support an assertion. Without support the assertion itself is meaningless.


.

 

[follower of Christ]

The blasphemous views of Calvinism and Hyper-predestination

Huh...

All that the Father gives Me shall come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will by no means cast out.
(John 6:37 EMTV)

I dont know...can someone show me where this presents the idea that God isnt simply giving those whom He FOREKNEW would come to the Son ?
Im not demanding it say anything at all, simply trying to see how it NULLIFIES the idea that God 'FOREKNOWS' who will repent and who wont

I see nothing here that pushes the idea that man is built in an assembly line with 'Heaven' or 'Hell' branded on his soul.....did I miss something ?
I think we're making this say something that it doesnt say.

.

 

[AnnieHere]

Re: The blasphemous views of Calvinism and Hyper-predestination

Let me ask this for those who buy this Puppet Master God nonsense.

Will God send a man to hell whom He KNOWs will repent and turn to Him when He draws him ?

The scenario you present is impossible, because God only gives repentance to,
and draws those whom He has chosen to become saved, before the foundation of the world.

Actually, you are mocking God.

Man cannot repent of his own accord; GOD IS THE ONE WHO GIVES REPENTANCE:

True repentance can only come AFTER God gives one A NEW HEART.

No one is saved by any works of their own.

"THE HEART IS DECEITFUL ABOVE ALL THINGS, AND DESPERATELY WICKED: WHO CAN KNOW IT?"
-Jeremiah 17:9

"There is none that understandeth, THERE IS NONE THAT SEEKETH AFTER GOD."
-Romans 3:11

God does all the work of salvation in a person... in those whom he has CHOSEN AND PREDESTINED (Romans 8:29-f)


REPENTING IS A WORK.


No action of man can result in his salvation.
(Ephesians 2:8-9)



GOD "GIVES" HIS CHOSEN ONES REPENTANCE.


Repentance which leads to salvation is GIVEN by God Himself:

"In meekness instructing those that oppose themselves; IF GOD
PERADVENTURE WILL GIVE THEM REPENTANCE to the acknowledging of the truth"
-2Timothy 2:26

"Him hath God exalted with his right hand to be a Prince and a Saviour,
for TO GIVE REPENTANCE TO ISRAEL, and forgiveness of sins."
-Acts 5:31

"When they heard these things, they held their peace, and glorified God,
saying, THEN HATH GOD ALSO TO THE GENTILES GRANTED REPENTANCE UNTO LIFE."
-Acts 11:18


To reiterate: True repentance can only come AFTER God gives one a new heart. No one is saved by any works of their own.!


"A NEW HEART ALSO WILL I GIVE YOU, and a new spirit will I put within you:
and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh."
-Ezekiel 36:26


Mankind CAN CHOOSE to become a child of God, but they are not capable of working out a plan
whereby they CAN become a child of God.

We all have been given a conscience, and the Bible teaches that to some degree we are able to
become obedient to the law of God, but that will not be at all sufficient to get us saved because
to become saved means that God has to CHOOSE US. In fact, He made the decision before the
foundations of the world who He planned to save (Ephesians 1:4-11).

Our choosing Him, believing in Him (and in the work He did regarding salvation), does not mean
that we can obtain salvation. Those who God planned to saved, HE CHOOSES (John 15:16), and HE DRAWS (John 6:44).

"According as HE HAS CHOSEN US IN HIM BEFORE THE FOUNDATION OF THE WORLD ,
that we should be holy and without blame before him in love. Having predestinated
us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good
pleasure of HIS WILL."
-Ephesians 1:4-5


FREEWILL with regard to salvation is a false doctrine.
The Bible does not teach it. A person's salvation has nothing to do with his own choice;
but as the above verses declare, God's choice.


GOD IS SOVEREIGN OVER ALL.


A man really is not his own, but belongs to God's eternal purpose,
and he has no control over what HE WILL, or will not do.

"YE HAVE NOT CHOSEN ME, BUT I HAVE CHOSEN YOU, and ordained you, that ye should go and bring forth fruit, and that your fruit should remain"
-John 15"16

THERE IS NO SUCH THING AS "FREEWILL" WHEN IT COMES TO ETERNAL SALVATION.

People make choices and decisions according to what God has already determined,
though from mere appearance, it seems we are making our own decisions and choices
apart from God's Divine control, but ultimately, God is in control of ALL.

"HIM WHO WORKETH ALL THINGS AFTER THE COUNSEL OF HIS OWN WILL"
-Ephesians 1:11

"OF HIS OWN WILL begat he us with the word of truth, that we should be
a kind of firstfruits of his creatures."
-James 1:18

"And all the inhabitants of the earth are reputed as nothing: and HE DOETH ACCORDING TO HIS WILL in the army of heaven, and among the inhabitants of the earth: and
none can stay his hand, or say unto him, What doest thou?"
-Daniel 4:35

"But he is in one mind, and who can turn him? and
WHAT HIS SOUL DESIRETH, EVEN THAT HE DOETH.
For HE PERFORMETH THE THING THAT IS APPOINTED FOR ME: and many
such things are with him."
-Job 23:13-14

"I will cry unto God most high; unto GOD THAT
PERFORMETH ALL THINGS FOR ME."
-Psalm 57:2

"THE LORD WILL PERFECT THAT WHICH CONCERNETH ME:
thy mercy, O LORD, endureth for ever: forsake not the works of thine own hands."
-Psalm 138:8

"Known unto God are all his works from the beginning of the world."
-Acts 15:18
(James knew that the Gentiles seeking of God was a pre-ordained work of God,
that He Himself purposed.)

"For it is God which worketh in you
BOTH TO WILL AND TO DO of His good pleasure."
-Philippians 2:13

God has determined our destiny in life,
and He will not give us anything that is outside of HIS PURPOSE.

"There is a way which seemeth right unto a man, but the end thereof [are] the ways of death."
-Proverbs 14:12

"Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven. Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? And then will I profess unto them, I NEVER KNEW YOU: depart from me, ye that work iniquity."
-Matthew 7:21:23

 

[follower of Christ]

Re: The blasphemous views of Calvinism and Hyper-predestination

The scenario you present is impossible, because God only gives repentance to,
and draws those whom He has chosen to become saved, before the foundation of the world.

Sorry but that ISNT ALL of the data/facts ;)
Man DOES react to Gods calling...or not

Actually, you are mocking God.

Give the drama a rest...yawn...

Man cannot repent of his own accord; GOD IS THE ONE WHO GIVES REPENTANCE:

Chapter and verse, please....the one that shows us that MAN isnt the one who has to do the repenting.
Rom 10:9 that if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and you believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you shall be saved.
The false god you folks push doesnt need man at all. He simply can repent to himself and eliminate the middle man ;)

True repentance can only come AFTER God gives one A NEW HEART.
[quote:246xv6ax]

Man can only repent after God has drawn him. The

No one is saved by any works of their own.
[/quote:246xv6ax]Already covered this nonsense.....please dont come into the thread 12 pages late and make us have to REPEAT ourselves for the 17th time....READ the thread

 

[follower of Christ]

"THE HEART IS DECEITFUL ABOVE ALL THINGS, AND DESPERATELY WICKED: WHO CAN KNOW IT?"
-Jeremiah 17:9

Irrelevant to THIS discussion

"There is none that understandeth, THERE IS NONE THAT SEEKETH AFTER GOD."
-Romans 3:11

Irrelevant to THIS discussion

God does all the work of salvation in a person... in those whom he has CHOSEN AND PREDESTINED (Romans 8:29-f)

Bogus nonsense fallacy...
AGAIN...
Rom 10:9 that if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and you believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you shall be saved.

REPENTING IS A WORK.

WRong
Repentance is a REACTION to His drawing. It is no 'work'.

No action of man can result in his salvation.
(Ephesians 2:8-9)

Bogus nonsense fallacy...
AGAIN...
Rom 10:9 that if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and you believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you shall be saved.

GOD "GIVES" HIS CHOSEN ONES REPENTANCE.

And His 'chosen ones' are those whom He FOREKNEW and then predestinated...

Repentance which leads to salvation is GIVEN by God Himself:

To which MAN REACTS

 

[follower of Christ]

"In meekness instructing those that oppose themselves; IF GOD
PERADVENTURE WILL GIVE THEM REPENTANCE to the acknowledging of the truth"
-2Timothy 2:26

"Him hath God exalted with his right hand to be a Prince and a Saviour,
for TO GIVE REPENTANCE TO ISRAEL, and forgiveness of sins."
-Acts 5:31

"When they heard these things, they held their peace, and glorified God,
saying, THEN HATH GOD ALSO TO THE GENTILES GRANTED REPENTANCE UNTO LIFE."
-Acts 11:18

AGAIN...
Rom 10:9 that if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and you believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you shall be saved.

To reiterate: True repentance can only come AFTER God gives one a new heart. No one is saved by any works of their own.!

AGAIN...
Rom 10:9 that if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and you believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you shall be saved.
No 'works' required ;)

"A NEW HEART ALSO WILL I GIVE YOU, and a new spirit will I put within you:
and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh."
-Ezekiel 36:26

And this is given TO those whom He FOREKNEW and thus PREDESTINED to be conformed to the image of His son ;)

Mankind CAN CHOOSE to become a child of God, but they are not capable of working out a plan
whereby they CAN become a child of God.

Whose side are you on here ????
Youre agreeing with me, it would seem ;)

We all have been given a conscience, and the Bible teaches that to some degree we are able to
become obedient to the law of God, but that will not be at all sufficient to get us saved because
to become saved means that God has to CHOOSE US. In fact, He made the decision before the
foundations of the world who He planned to save (Ephesians 1:4-11).

A decision made with the FOREKNOWLEDGE of WHO would repent and WHO wouldnt...or are you saying that God would send a soul into hell who would CHOOSE Him ? ;)

Our choosing Him, believing in Him (and in the work He did regarding salvation), does not mean that we can obtain salvation.

AGAIN...
Rom 10:9 that if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and you believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you shall be saved.
How is that NOT 'obtaining' salvation

Those who God planned to saved, HE CHOOSES (John 15:16), and HE DRAWS (John 6:44).

Again,...are you claiming that God would damn to hell a soul that WOULD REPENT ???
If not then you agree that He DOES foreknow who will repent and and saves those who will ;)

"According as HE HAS CHOSEN US IN HIM BEFORE THE FOUNDATION OF THE WORLD ,
that we should be holy and without blame before him in love. Having predestinated
us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good
pleasure of HIS WILL."
-Ephesians 1:4-5

G4267
??????????
progin?sk?
prog-in-oce'-ko
From G4253 and G1097; to know beforehand, that is, foresee: - foreknow (ordain), know (before).


For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.
(Rom 8:29 KJV)

Heres a couple verses where the word is used that SHOW that it DOES have a facet of 'foreknowing'...

You therefore, beloved, knowing this beforehand, be on guard, lest you also fall from your own steadfastness, being carried away by the error of the wicked;
(2 Peter 3:17 EMTV)

Which knew me from the beginning, if they would testify, that after the most straitest sect of our religion I lived a Pharisee.
(Acts 26:5 KJV)

FREEWILL with regard to salvation is a false doctrine.

Prove the statement, poster. Ive yet to see anything presented that even remotely does...

The Bible does not teach it.

Sorry but it does. With EVERY instruction to NOT turn away ;)

A person's salvation has nothing to do with his own choice;
but as the above verses declare, God's choice.

AGAIN...
Rom 10:9 that if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and you believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you shall be saved.

GOD IS SOVEREIGN OVER ALL.

Of course He is.
He is SO sovereign that despite these false 'Puppet Master' fallacies He CAN allow man FREE will and NOT be threatened by that freedom ;)

A man really is not his own, but belongs to God's eternal purpose,
and he has no control over what HE WILL, or will not do.

AGAIN...
Rom 10:9 that if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and you believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you shall be saved.

"YE HAVE NOT CHOSEN ME, BUT I HAVE CHOSEN YOU, and ordained you, that ye should go and bring forth fruit, and that your fruit should remain"
-John 15"16

AGAIN...
Rom 10:9 that if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and you believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you shall be saved.

 

[follower of Christ]

THERE IS NO SUCH THING AS "FREEWILL" WHEN IT COMES TO ETERNAL SALVATION.

Sorry but you are in error..
Rom 10:9 that if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and you believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you shall be saved.
WE confess unto salvation. God doesnt confess TO Himself THRU us....

Ohhhhh....here we go....

People make choices and decisions according to what God has already determined, though from mere appearance, it seems we are making our own decisions and choices apart from God's Divine control, but ultimately, God is in control of ALL.

So...when a man rapes a child...are you saying that he wouldnt do so if GOD were not divinely controlling him ? Please dont backpeddle on my account ;)
I'll stick on this point until you give a CLEAR response friend. Ive seen your error before.
And my guess is that most here will distance themselves from this heresy immediately.
We may disagree but we DONT put mans sin at GODS feet as this error does.



HyperCalvinism
God made me do it
By Wm Tipton

You've heard the old line that 'the devil made me do it', I’m sure, but we all know that is just silliness, the devil cant 'make' us do anything.
This group, hyper calvinists, has been around for a while, but is merely a sub-sect of the faith, thankfully.
Don’t mistake them for regular Calvinists who simply take predestination a bit too far. This particular group has removed all responsibility for their own sin from themselves, and instead of placing it where it might belong, on our sin nature, they put the guilt for OUR sin and disobedience right at Gods feet.

Simply put, this doctrine focuses on Gods sovereignty so greatly as to remove mans responsibility completely for his own sin..."GOD made me do it", so to speak.

What they do is use the fact that God is 'sovereign', a fact that we all acknowledge, to say that God has 'ordained' every act you and I will ever commit. They believe that it was not only Gods 'choice' that Adam sinned and man fell, but that God was in control of the whole thing, meaning that He 'forced' Adam to fall, for all intents and purposes. Now, they wont word it quite as directly as I do.

This group believes, from my understanding, that their spirits 'cannot' sin, thus thier spirits are not accountable for the sins that their flesh commits. If you ask them they will get into long-winded explainations trying to smokescreen what they believe in all of this, but the bottom line is that they believe that 'God made them do it' in regard to sin and disobedience.

What it breaks down to with these is that man has no real 'free will' and is only acting on what God has ordained. Man can do nothing that he isn't being made to by Gods sovereignty, and thus man is not actually guilty of the sin, but God must be as HE would be the one forcing man to commit it. They believe that every act you ever commit, whether good or evil, was set into motion by God Himself, and they will distort whatever scriptures they need to to make this lie seem palatable.

Here are some warning signs to look for, dear brethren.

- God, not man, is the 'source' of sin and evil (because God has supposedly 'ordained' our sin, even our fall) and man has no actual choice or will in the matter. God not only chose for man to fall, but literally is causing YOU to commit every sin you ever have and will. It isn’t our fault that we sin, but God’s.

Only Calvinists are supposedly the 'elect' and only they are 'christian'.

Here is a quote from a forum poster...

“...I am proposing that God purposed and decreed sin and Adams fall ...â€

This is the nonsense that these folks push. Instead of God foreknowing that Adam would sin, and therefore working out a plan of salvation for Adam, these folks say GOD is the origin of sin and disobedience. Of course, getting them to say it like that would probably be close to impossible, but it is factual.

And here another:

“God ordained every sin you and I will ever committ. The level of sin you would fall into, if you would be a rapest, a homosexual, a child molestor, or a mureder, God ordained everything, and then blames you for the sin in your life. God is Sovereign over and controls everything and everybody and every place, anything that has the least existence, God created and controls....â€

Here is our response to the quote above:

For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.
(Rom 8:29 KJV)

foreknow
G4267
From G4253 and G1097; to know beforehand, that is, foresee: - foreknow (ordain), know (before).

Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ, to the strangers scattered throughout Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia, and Bithynia, Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied.
(1Pe 1:1-2 KJV)

foreknowledge
G4268
prog'-no-sis
From G4267; forethought: - foreknowledge.

Those people He FOREKNEW, He PREDESTINATED to be conformed to the image of His Son.
It is a two step proceedure, not one.
God ‘foreknows’ from the foundation of the world, He then predestinates those whom He foreknows to be conformed to the image of His Son. If it were as these folks assert, there is no need in there being the foreknowing step...only predestinating would be mentioned or necessary.

So instead of God foreknowing Adams sin, and then putting a method of salvation into place for those whom He foreknows, hypercalvinists say that GOD is the one who made Adam sin and fall.
One problem with this nonsense, and there are many, is that this means that fully and finally GOD has sinned against Himself thru man. Preposterous.

Heres yet another, more obscene statement by another person of this horrid fallacy;

beloved57:
"God ordains everything, including sin, anyone blaspheming the Holy Ghost, God ordained it, thats simple.. anyone doing anything, God ordained it.."

God’s word also says this;

Let no one say when he is tempted, "I am tempted by God"; for God cannot be tempted by evil, nor does He Himself tempt anyone. But each one is tempted by his own lusts, being drawn away and being seduced by them. Then lust, when it conceives, gives birth to sin; and sin, when it is full-grown, brings forth death.
(Jas 1:13-15 EMTV)

It seems pretty clear from God’s word that He will not cause anyone to sin or ‘tempt’ with evil. This scripture is very clear that it is WE who sin...who choose to sin...and it is not God who causes us to do so. But of course, expect the hypercalvinist to simply explain this passage away.

This group is quite dangerous in that their views must remove YOUR responsibility for YOUR sin. God would be the one making you sin from eternity past and as such you cannot be held accountable in that as the ‘elect’ you cannot ever go to hell, even if you were to blaspheme His Holy Spirit.
Again, they probably wont admit most of this, but it is only logical based on what they believe.

Currently this writing is just to warn against this heresy so that the brethren might be aware of the danger of this “christian†cult who blames God sovereigness for their own failings and sin.


2.0

This is a comment from a group of 'hyper' predestination types that believe that God ordains and controls EVERY act, thought, breath, etc that every man and woman will ever take part of in their lives.

“God ordained every sin you and I will ever committ. The level of sin you would fall into, if you would be a rapest, a homosexual, a child molestor, or a mureder, God ordained everything, and then blames you for the sin in your life. God is Sovereign over and controls everything and everybody and every place, anything that has the least existence, God created and controls....â€

What this also means is that that unforgivable sin we all know about, whether we believe it can be committed by Christians or not isnt the issue, blasphemy of His precious Holy Spirit....would ACTUALLY be GOD doing so THRU man.

God supposedly 'controls' man, meaning his mouth as well as his body and mind, so that we must conclude that, even if they dismiss it somehow, that these heretics are actually claiming that GOD not only rapes children thru man since man doesnt control his own actions and sins, but also BLASPHEMES His own Holy Spirit by ordaining and controlling man to do so.
I actually got one to admit he believes just this..

beloved57:
"God ordains everything, including sin, anyone blaspheming the Holy Ghost, God ordained it, thats simple.. anyone doing anything, God ordained it.."

That particular person lays out very clearly what this error believes

beloved57:
"You dont have a freewill, in fact your a robot, a human robot, your whole life has been scripted for you by God.. "

Supposedly man has no will at all to even commit sin. Apparently we can ONLY do what has been 'scripted' for us, therefore GOD is ultimately the one who causes us to sin....'God made me do it"

unbelievable...

 

[follower of Christ]

Actually, Im beginning to enjoy this discussion.

 

[AnnieHere]

Re: The blasphemous views of Calvinism and Hyper-predestination

Man cannot repent of his own accord; GOD IS THE ONE WHO GIVES REPENTANCE:

Chapter and verse, please....the one that shows us that MAN isnt the one who has to do the repenting.
Rom 10:9 that if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and you believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you shall be saved.
The false god you folks push doesnt need man at all. He simply can repent to himself and eliminate the middle man ;)



Re-read my post. All the pertinent scriptures are there for anyone to see.

Regarding Romans 10:9:

To CONFESS Christ means to be at one mind with Him.
We cannot be of one mind with Christ until He saves us; gives us a new heart.
Because, before then, we have a a heart that is desperately wicked;
we are at enmity with God.
(Jeremiah 17:9)

"STUDY TO SHEW THYSELF APPROVED UNTO GOD, a workman that needeth
not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth."
-2 Timothy 2:15

 

[follower of Christ]

Re: The blasphemous views of Calvinism and Hyper-predestination

Re-read my post. All the pertinent scriptures are there for anyone to see.

I DID read your post, friend, and all I saw was a huge patchwork of irrelevance and denial of actual scriptural fact. ;)

Regarding Romans 10:9:

To CONFESS Christ means to be at one mind with Him.
We cannot be of one mind with Christ until He saves us; gives us a new heart.

Still have yet to provide single WORD of scripture that nullifies mans RESPONSE to GODS DRAWING ;)

"STUDY TO SHEW THYSELF APPROVED UNTO GOD, a workman that needeth
not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth."
-2 Timothy 2:15

Go and do likewise....

.

 

[follower of Christ]

Re: The blasphemous views of Calvinism and Hyper-predestination

AnnieHere, I asked you a VERY direct question....can you at least respect the membership here to GIVE a RESPONSE ?????

YOU said the following;

People make choices and decisions according to what God has already determined, though from mere appearance, it seems we are making our own decisions and choices apart from God's Divine control, but ultimately, God is in control of ALL.

ARE you claiming that when a man rapes a child that the mans choice was made "according to what God has already determined"
Please dont start retracting now...you SAID..."it seems we are making our own decisions and choices apart from God's Divine control, but ultimately, God is in control of ALL.

So does GOD 'divinely control' the man who rapes and murders a child or not, poster ?
If no, then explain your statement above as it certainly sounds like you are saying God controls these monsters.
If so....well, dont expect US here to worship such a god....

.

 

[savedbygrace57]

foc says:

ARE you claiming that when a man rapes a child that the mans choice was made "according to what God has already determined"

Yes..

Just like when men murdered His beloved Son, it was according to what God had already determined..

acts 4:

27For of a truth against thy holy child Jesus, whom thou hast anointed, both Herod, and Pontius Pilate, with the Gentiles, and the people of Israel, were gathered together,

28For to do whatsoever thy hand and thy counsel determined before to be done.

Now whats more important and more of a crime before God, the rape of a child or the murder of His Son ?

Either way, God determined the evil to be done to both victims..now go a head and reject scripture as you normally do..

 

[follower of Christ]

Re: The The blasphemous views of Calview of Gods Foreknowledge !

.
READERS
The previous post and the following is what you get when we twist and distort Gods word into something that its not.
Remove mans FREE WILL to CHOOSE and what does that say about SIN ?
What it says is that ultimately sin is laid at GODS feet, tho WE are supposedly responsible for it, HE is the one who ultimately sins against HIMSELF thru man.
Even if its denied by the proponents of these doctrines in the end this is the inevitable result if they actually take things to their only logical conclusion.

If man has NO free will then GOD is made the sinner.

foc says:

ARE you claiming that when a man rapes a child that the mans choice was made "according to what God has already determined"

Yes..

Oh, thank you SO much for answering this
I'll be sure to add this to my archives for the brethren to see and see again for a very long time so they KNOW what sort of demented teachings are out there.

Just like when men murdered His beloved Son, it was according to what God had already determined..

oh gee...I didnt know innocent little children were sent down here with a specific mission that THEY CHOSE to come and carry out like Jesus did
Thanks for clearing that up for us, S..

Now whats more important and more of a crime before God, the rape of a child or the murder of His Son ?

not even remotely related or connected, poster.

JESUS who EXISTED from the foundation of the world CLEARLY KNEW His mission, poster...
Women and little innocent children DONT DECIDE to be raped and murdered.

It was inevitable that this all come out. It always does.
Disgusting...

Either way, God determined the evil to be done to both victims..now go a head and reject scripture as you normally do..

Wrong.
I reject your godless, satanic perversion of the scriptures, poster....THAT is what I reject.

Therefore, beloved, looking forward to these things, be diligent to be found by Him in peace, without spot or blemish; and consider that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation--just as also our beloved brother Paul, according to the wisdom given to him, wrote to you, as also in all his letters, speaking in them about these things, in which are some things hard to understand, which the unlearned and unstable twist to their own destruction, as they do also the rest of the Scriptures.
(2 Peter 3:14-16 EMTV)

WE know that God simply FOREKNEW the actions of this freak of a man who sins against the child and against God. God in NO WAY 'determined' that this man should commit the sin he commits.

.

 

[follower of Christ]

The blasphemous views of Calvinism and Hyper-predestination

I find myself sitting here hoping that savedbygrace makes the mistake of bringing the 'God murders' of the OT into this discussion to somehow evidence the case against our God.

God had the NATION of Israel KILL entire nations of men, women, children and livestock WHEN it suited His will.
What God DIDNT do was have INDIVIDUAL men go around randomly raping children and nothing like that would EVER have fulfilled His plan for them.

On the NATIONAL level for Israel we see laws such as 'Eye for an eye'...for judges to dispense justice with.
On an INDIVIDUAL level they perverted the intent of that precept into an allowance to exact personal vengeance, but Jesus told them to turn the other cheek and to not seek revenge as they were.

Lets see if someone has so twisted Gods word here that they actually think His instruction to the NATION of Israel somehow is connected to some demonic individual raping a child....

Isnt it a bit of an irony that the thread is titled;
"The blasphemous view of Gods Foreknowledge ! "
Then the person who created that thread title is sitting here putting MANS sin on GOD ?

Which do you believe is blasphemy...simply believing that God FOREKNOWS and predestinates in the case of those who will come to Him as scripture SAYS...or claiming that GOD rapes a child THRU a will-less man ???

WE know that God simply FOREKNEW the actions of this freak of a man who sins against the child and against God. God in NO WAY 'determined' that this man should commit the sin he commits.
.

 

[(THE)]

Rom 11:

2God hath not cast away his people which he foreknew. Wot ye not what the scripture saith of Elias? how he maketh intercession to God against Israel saying,

The False teachers of the antichrist, and his followers, have taken one of Gods eternal precious truthes of scripture, that of Gods foreknowledge, and have wrested it to mean, that God uses His foreknowledge in order to see or have seen how someone will respond in any given situation.

This concept is extremely dishonoring to the God who created the heavens and the earth, and all therein, simply because it leaves Gods acquisition of knowledge at mans whim and mercy..Instead of the Great God Eternal knowing all things by reason of His Divine decree, that He purposed..God recieves knowledge of ones reponses only after having observed what the person has done..hence God was enlighten by His creature..

This is in direct conflict with job 21:

22 Shall any teach God knowledge? seeing he judgeth those that are high.

These wicked false teachers say God foreknows people and things because He looked down before time and saw them coming or acting, So Gods creatures give Him knowledge and increases His understanding; open theism is really at fault in this regards, one of the most blasphemous cults in the world today, with their ungodly view of God..but they are not alone by a long shot..there are many other false religons as the freewillers who teach this blasphemy..and though hand join in hand, they shall not go unpunished.prov 11:

21Though hand join in hand, the wicked shall not be unpunished: but the seed of the righteous shall be delivered.

jude:

14And Enoch also, the seventh from Adam, prophesied of these, saying, Behold, the Lord cometh with ten thousands of his saints,

15To execute judgment upon all, and to convince all that are ungodly among them of all their ungodly deeds which they have ungodly committed, and of all their hard speeches which ungodly sinners have spoken against him.

These wicked false teachers say God foreknows people and things because He looked down before time and saw them coming or acting, So Gods creatures give Him knowledge and increases His understanding; open theism is really at fault in this regards, one of the most blasphemous cults in the world today, with their ungodly view of God..but they are not alone by a long shot..there are many other false religons as the freewillers who teach this blasphemy..and though hand join in hand, they shall not go unpunished.prov 11:

What wicked teacher????????? I mean GOd knew us in the first earth age,,,of course....But some of the other stuff im not sure.....

 

[toddm]

I think I'm done w/ this conversation for several reasons:

1) You automatically dismiss ALL the verses other posters have shown and continue to fall back on your 3-4 passages that you've posted over and over again...all while repeatedly claiming to take ALL of Scripture into account.

2) You continue to misrepresent man's free will and Calvinism.

3) You question the sovereignty of God by implying that God does not ALLOW (not cause) sin to happen. You misrepresent our view of a sovereign God by saying that God causes us to sin. God DOES allow sin, and He DOES hold people accountable for their sin. It's all over the Bible w/ Pharaoah, Nebuchadnezzer, Cephas, Judas, etc.

4) I do not see how further discussion will be fruitful to either side. You are not here to learn a position, but rather accuse the rest of us (and sadly many great Christian leaders) of worshiping a false God.

5) You assume that we dismiss Romans 10:9, where we fully affirm a confession with the mouth is required. However, you dismiss the fact that a totally depraved sinful human being can't do this aside from the Holy Spirit intervening. Is man good or not? If not, then how would mankind ever choose to follow a holy and righteous God? I guess (from your perspective), man is good enough to want to follow God (all you have to do though is ignore what Scripture says about the condition of man). People make choices to follow Jesus all the time, but it's only after they've been given a new nature.

 

[follower of Christ]

The blasphemous views of Calvinism and Hyper-predestination

I think I'm done w/ this conversation for several reasons:

And hopefully you are wise enough to distance yourself from Savebygrace's statements above, Todd.
Id hate to think that you believe in such a diabolic god.

1) You

I assume "you" means me ;)

automatically dismiss ALL the verses other posters have shown and continue to fall back on your 3-4 passages that you've posted over and over again...all while repeatedly claiming to take ALL of Scripture into account.

As stated previously, and regardless of your understanding the fact, INSTRUCTION BY ITS VERY NATURE PRESUMES THE FREE WILL and ABILITY of those instructed TO CHOOSE to obey.
EVERY LAW and EVERY single word of INSTRUCTION in the ENTIRE BIBLE PRESUMES FREE WILL.

Im not sure what it will take to get that fact across to you, Todd.
EVERY law and instruction in the whole bible PROVES free will exists.

2) You continue to misrepresent man's free will and Calvinism.

Really ?
Did you READ the statement provided by the last two posters ?
DID I misrepresent their doctrinal views, Todd ?

3) You question the sovereignty of God by implying that God does not ALLOW (not cause) sin to happen.

What in the world are you even talking about, Todd "
I KNOW GOD ALLOWS sin to happen, gent....READ my posts rather than doing what you do with scriptures and INSERTING YOUR thought into them

You misrepresent our view of a sovereign God by saying that God causes us to sin.

Did you bother to READ the last two posters, chap?
Do I need to QUOTE them for you ?

God DOES allow sin, and He DOES hold people accountable for their sin.

Uh...yeah....I know

 

[follower of Christ]

The blasphemous views of Calvinism and Hyper-predestination

4) I do not see how further discussion will be fruitful to either side. You are not here to learn a position,

Im sorry, todd....but WHEN did *I* say I was here to learn something ?
The OP is a direct ASSAULT on free will and Gods foreknowledge and ALL who believe in it...*I* responded TO that assault.
I did NOT ask YOU to teach me in the matter, brother...NO one here did

but rather accuse the rest of us (and sadly many great Christian leaders) of worshiping a false God.

If you worship a God who ISNT presented in the scriptures as a whole then it ISNT the true God being worshiped, now is it ?

5) You assume that we dismiss Romans 10:9, where we fully affirm a confession with the mouth is required.

I assume that persons who have made it clear that the DO dismiss Romans actually do ;)
If you havent done so then dont include yourself in that group.

However, you dismiss the fact that a totally depraved sinful human being can't do this aside from the Holy Spirit intervening.

Dead wrong, chap, and your saying this PROVES that you ARENT reading a single thing here.
*I* have stated over and again that the FATHER MUST DRAW a man BEFORE the man can RESPOND to that drawing.
Why are you purposefully MISrepresenting what I have presented here, Todd ? I expected more than dishonesty from you, brother.

Is man good or not?

for whenever Gentiles, who do not have the law, by nature do the things of the law, these, not having the law, are a law unto themselves, who show the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience witnessing with them, and among themselves their thoughts accuse or even defend them),
(Romans 2:14-15 EMTV)

nuff said...
Even the gentiles who didnt have the law apparently had Gods law in their hearts.
Something is terribly amiss with YOUR understanding of it all, Todd.

 

[toddm]

Dead wrong, chap, and your saying this PROVES that you ARENT reading a single thing here.
*I* have stated over and again that the FATHER MUST DRAW a man BEFORE the man can RESPOND to that drawing.

Do you see the inconsistency in this logic? Lets diagram this process out, and help me understand you if I'm not getting your position:

1) Man cannot make a decision to follow Christ because God hasn't drawn him.

2) God draws him, which means he can now make a decision.

3) Man makes or does not make a decision to follow Christ.

How is 1 & 3 different? If you say #2 is what makes the difference, then God's grace is efficacious! How would a drawing give man any more ability to choose God than without a drawing? Why even have a drawing? The entire premise makes no sense. Is God's drawing effectual or not? If not, then why even draw because man is perfectly capable of choosing God on his own. If it's still up to man, then it should be irrelevant whether God draws him or not, right? Therefore, why not just make premise #1 - man is fully capable of choosing God without any prompting whatsoever. Why would a drawing make any difference one way or the other?

So, what then is your logical conclusion? Man doesn't need God in order to choose Him, or man does need God in order to choose Him? The former contradicts your above post; the latter agrees w/ my view.

I expected more than dishonesty from you, brother.

To misunderstand someone due to the ambiguous nature of forum boards and accusing someone of being blatantly dishonest are very different things, and I personally do not care for your accusations. You've thrown "stones" at my integrity, my intelligence, my love for God, and my theological intellect. I would think that from having seen some of my previous posts in different discussions (where we were in agreement) that I would have at least earned SOME respect from someone as passionate about the Word as yourself. I never assumed that you were in here to learn something, but shouldn't all students of the Word always be teachable and trying to learn from others who are passionate about the Word too? Instead, you have positioned yourself as the scholar in theology and anyone who disagrees with you is "following a false God". No, brother, it is I who expected more from you.

BTW, Making subtle attacks on people and their intellect and then posting a behind it doesn't it make it more "Christian" or less offensive. If I can give you any encouragement as one Christian brother to another, it is to add more grace to your posts and in dealing with others on this board.

With that being said, I hope that our future discussions will be more fruitful.