Bible Study The Case for the Pre Wrath Rapture

[Judy]

Re: reply

Judy, I am trying to filter it out Judy. It seems to me that Pre-wrath is in the middlle of the tribulation. I am pre-trib. For me to be pre-wrath< I would have to be a Dominionist. I have been studying end-times for about 3 years now, I like the teachings of Finis Jennings Dake, Oral Roberts, Hilton Sutton, Grant Jefferies, and other Charismatic Authors.



May God bless, Golfjack

Do yourself a favor and do this study. Put a side any position you hold and follow along in the Word of God.

 

[Judy]

B. Is Matthew Applicable to the Church?:

Those who are of the Pre-Trib persuasion understand that if the Church is raptured before Daniel's 70th week, then they must explain away two things:

• 1.Jesus was not talking to his disciples as future church fathers, but as unsaved Israel.

• 2.Verses 30,31 do not refer to the rapture, but to Armageddon.

Now what I want to do is present both sides of the argument for you. I, believe the issue is very clear if you use a normal and literal method of interpretation. This is one of the most critical aspects of our study. As I have mentioned, Matt 24 is the most critical passage in all the Bible relating to end time events, so the bottom line?: we must determine if this passage is meant for us to know and apply to our lives, or if it is not. Let's look at a few problems associated with this issue.

Issue 1: The Parousia Problem:

The question the disciples asked Jesus was "what will be the sign of your coming (or parousia)?" Jesus answers them very specifically in Matt 24. He gives them events leading up to his coming, the sign of his coming, and his actual coming. So when his disciples asked Christ about his singular coming (remember we said Parousia was singular), Christ told them exactly how and when he would return.

If, as Pre-tribbers believe, Christ was referring to the battle of Armageddon (which occurs at the end of the 70th week), then what is referred to in verses 30,31 is the 3rd coming of Christ. The secret rapture of the Church is the 2nd coming.

Nowhere in the Bible does it ever teach or infer that there is some secret coming of the Lord. The classic text pre-tribbers use to support this is:

• 1 Thess 4:15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive [and] remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
  1 Thess 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
  1 Thess 4:17 Then we which are alive [and] remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
  1 Thess 4:18 Wherefore comfort one another with these words.

Where is the mention of a secret coming in this text? The word for coming is the same exact word used in Matthew 24, parousia (singular). There is no hint of a secret or additional coming for the Church. It is simply not taught.

• Rev 19:11 And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him [was] called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war.
  Rev 19:12 His eyes [were] as a flame of fire, and on his head [were] many crowns; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself.
  Rev 19:13 And he [was] clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God.
  Rev 19:14 And the armies [which were] in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.
  Rev 19:15 And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.
  Rev 19:16 And he hath on [his] vesture and on his thigh a name written, KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS.

This is the text that all pre-tribbers believe occurs at the end of the 70th week when Jesus physically returns to the earth. It is immediately after the battle of Armageddon. Now,

• Is there any reference to the word parousia in this passage? No. [/*:m:44c57]

• Is there any mention of Christ coming in the clouds? No [/*:m:44c57]

• Is there any mention of the gathering of the elect? No [/*:m:44c57]

• Is there any mention of the blowing of a trumpet? No (Go back to 1 Thess 4:15-18)[/*:m:44c57]

• Is there any mention of the word parousia? Yes[/*:m:44c57]

• Is there any mention of Christ coming in the clouds? Yes[/*:m:44c57]

• Is there any mention of the gathering of the elect? Yes[/*:m:44c57]

• Is there any mention of the blowing of a trumpet? Yes[/*:m:44c57]

I would strongly submit to you, that when answering his disciples as to his coming, he was referring to the process of his return; beginning with the removal of the elect (Matthew 24:30,31), and culminating with his physical return to the earth (Rev 19:11-17). Remember, his disciples knew Christ was going to die (though they didn't fully understand). They wanted to know when they would see Him again? Wouldn't you?? So it is in this context, that Jesus answers their question.

Again, there is no hint in the Bible of a secret coming, and certainly the Bible does not teach three comings!!

Issue 2: The Jewish Gospel

One of the main reasons pre-tribbers don't view Matt 24 as applicable to the Church, is the fact that they say that the gospel of Matthew was written to the Jews, therefore it is a Jewish gospel. Thus, they equate the applicability of Matt 24 to unsaved Israel, not the church. This has some serious problems. While it is true that the gospel of Matthew has a particular Jewish flavor, their argument does not stand up for several reasons:

• 1.The word Church only appears once in any of the gospels. (Matt 16:18)

• 2.Matt 28:19,20 is universally accepted by evangelicals as the Great Commission of the Church, not Israel.

• 3.Matt 26:17-30 is the institution of the Lord's Supper which was an ordinance instituted for the Church, not Israel.

• 4.The Olivet discourse was not only given in Matthew (Jewish Gospel), but also in Mark and Luke (which can be argued to be for the Gentiles).

Read Matt 24:38-41. Pre-Tribbers will take verses 40 and 41 to say that the one in the field and the one in the mill who are taken, they are taken in judgment. The one remaining is the one who will be alive to go into the millennium. Thus they say that that can't be the rapture of the Church, so again, they conveniently try to remove the Church from Matthew 24. That rationale sounds valid, and I used to believe that until I did a word study of the key words in the text.
The word take in verse 39 is the Greek word airo (ahee-roe). It means literally to take away, carry, or remove.

The word for taken in verses 40,41 is the Greed word paralegomai (par-al-eg-om-ahee). It means to receive near; to associate with oneself in a familiar or intimate act.

In other words, verse 38 speaks of a removal while verse 40,41 speak of an intimate receiving to someone. This is the rapture. And if there is any doubt in your mind, look at

• John 14:3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, [there] ye may be also.

This is a verse all pre-tribbers say refers to the rapture. The word for receive is the exact word used in Matt 24:40,41. It was correctly translated in John's gospel. So while on the surface, it appears that pre-tribbers may have had a valid argument, a closer look reveals again that their argument does not hold up.

So if verses 40 and 41 are speaking of an intimate receiving (rapture), then this is a serious problem for the pre-tribbers. Why? Because the setting of this whole chapter is in the context of events that occur within the 70th week of Daniel. So they must somehow make these verses say something they do not, to try to make Matt 24 applicable to unsaved Israel, not the church. It just does not hold up.

Read Matt 24:30,31. There are alot of people who try to say this is Armageddon by suggesting that this is gathering the Jews into the Millennium. But the Greek word for "gather" is very precise. It is the word episunago (ep-ee-soon-ag-o). The little preposition, epi, before the root word sunago, gives direction. Specifically, it gives upward direction to the gathering--which is exactly what will happen when Christ will come. He will gather the elect upward.

We must be very careful not to allegorize passages or attribute them to another group simply to fit a theological view. For example, look at Matt 23. Who was Jesus talking to? The Pharisees? NO, I disagree. He was talking to the Church about their hypocrisy. Do you see what I mean? While Matt 23 probably can apply to the Church, Jesus was specifically talking to the religious leaders of his time.

There is absolutely no evidence that would suggest that Jesus does not have the Church in mind in Matt 24. The "Jewish Gospel" argument is not valid in light of the numerous other passages directed toward the Church in the same gospel.

Issue 3: The use of the personal pronoun "you"

Christ uses the personal pronoun "you" ten times in Matt 24:4-31. Again, a literal, normal interpretation of this text can only result in one thing. When Christ meant "you", he meant the Church, not unsaved Israel. In contrast, in verses 38,39 Jesus used the third person to refer to those who are not believers.

Issue 4: Violation of own rules of interpretation

The amazing thing about the interpretation of Matt 24 is that pre-tribbers are not following their own rules of interpretation. They use a literal, normal, customary approach to interpret scriptures to defend dispensationalism. But in order to justify a pre-trib rapture, the church somehow needs to be removed out of Matt 24. So on the basis of "the Jewish Gospel" argument, Matt 24 is allegorized to be for unsaved Israel, and not the Church. It is the same type of interpretation that amillenialists and postmillenialists use to support their views.

One last point. Can we set dates as to the return of Christ? NO? Why not? Because no man knows the day or hour of his return. That answer is taken from Matthew 24:36. While it is true that no man knows the day or hour, this presents a problem for Pre-tribbers. According to them, that verse applies to the battle of Armageddon, not the rapture of the Church--which they claim happened at least 7 years earlier. In other words, they are taking a passage which they say applies to an event at the end of the 70th week, and apply it the rapture which occurs before the 70th week. You can't have it both ways. It is clear that, when taken literally, Jesus was speaking to his disciples as representatives of the Church. You must decide for yourself.

 

[golfjack]

reply

Judy, I have had this debate in another forum. First of all, One must know how to rightly divide the Word of God. Then, the reason church is only mentioned once in the Gospels is there was no Church established yet. The Church started in the Book of Acts. Then, when Jesus preached this sermon, the disciples were not saved yet ( no Holy Spirit yet).

I will respond to your theory when I print your post. We can take every verse one by one and figure what the right interpretation should be.


May God bless, Golfjack


P.S. You are trying to get me into the tribulation one way or another. Just a little humor.

 

[golfjack]

reply

The Greek word parousia, translated coming in James 5:7-8: the word literally means being with or presence. We see in 2 Peter 3:3-4 and 1 Thess 4:15-17, saying that the expression Paul uses, in the last days, refers to the time just before the parousia, or the coming of Christ for His saints ( the rapture).

When Christ comes for His Church, He will come in person. We must distinguish between the rapture and the second coming. They are 2 separate events. It is critical not to take Biblical texts out of context to make a point. We are dealing with 2 separate and distinct events. I believe the Bible teaches that He is first coming for His people, and then afterward, He is coming back with those people. The first event is the rapture and the second as the revelation of Christ.

We have Matt. 24:39-41 which describes the rapture. There will be men and women working together. One will be taken up in the rapture, the translation of the saints of God. The other will be left to face the tribulation.

Lets use Scripture to support these 2 events. 1. His coming for His people ( 1 Thess 4:17). 2. His coming with His people ( Deut 33:2; Rev. 19:14).


Will respond more a little later.



May God bless, golfjack

 

[Judy]

golfjack,

I would rather you hold your questions until the end...
This is what I posted at the start of this study...

I found this to be a very good study of endtime events. It is my prayer that we all would be like the bereans and search the scriptures with an open heart seeking the truth. Pre-wrath happens to be the position I hold on endtime events.
It's long so I will post a little each day. If you have any questions I would ask that you hold those until the end and then we can discuss them. Because I would not want to lose the flow of this study.

 

[golfjack]

reply

Sorry Judy, I thought you wanted me to respond. I was just trying to give you my feed back. Will wait until you are finished.



May God bless, golfjack

 

[Judy]

C. Revelation 6-8

While I believe Daniel 9 is the backbone of prophecy and Matthew 24 is the framework of end-time events, the book of Revelation gives us the specific details to help us fill in the gaps concerning Daniel's 70th week. And while I do not want to do a detailed study of the book of Revelation, I want to fill in the gaps that Matthew 24 does not delve into. I think you'll see as we get into Rev 6-8, that it perfectly parallels Matt 24 in specific chronological order.

• Rev 6:1 And I saw when the Lamb opened one of the seals, and I heard, as it were the noise of thunder, one of the four beasts saying, Come and see.
  Rev 6:2 And I saw, and behold a white horse: and he that sat on him had a bow; and a crown was given unto him: and he went forth conquering, and to conquer.
  Rev 6:3 And when he had opened the second seal, I heard the second beast say, Come and see.
  Rev 6:4 And there went out another horse [that was] red: and [power] was given to him that sat thereon to take peace from the earth, and that they should kill one another: and there was given unto him a great sword.
  Rev 6:5 And when he had opened the third seal, I heard the third beast say, Come and see. And I beheld, and lo a black horse; and he that sat on him had a pair of balances in his hand.
  Rev 6:6 And I heard a voice in the midst of the four beasts say, A measure of wheat for a penny, and three measures of barley for a penny; and [see] thou hurt not the oil and the wine.
  Rev 6:7 And when he had opened the fourth seal, I heard the voice of the fourth beast say, Come and see.
  Rev 6:8 And I looked, and behold a pale horse: and his name that sat on him was Death, and Hell followed with him. And power was given unto them over the fourth part of the earth, to kill with sword, and with hunger, and with death, and with the beasts of the earth.
  Rev 6:9 And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held:
  Rev 6:10 And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?
  Rev 6:11 And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they [were], should be fulfilled.
  Rev 6:12 And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood;
  Rev 6:13 And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind.
  Rev 6:14 And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places.
  Rev 6:15 And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains;
  Rev 6:16 And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:
  Rev 6:17 For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?

Now what I want to show you is the parallel between this passage and the passage in Matt 24.

Seal 1: Look at verse 2. Who do you think the white horse and rider are? Antichrist--this is almost universally accepted.

• Matt 24:5 For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and shall deceive many.

Although there is a similarity between the white horse and rider (antichrist) and the false Christ's presented in Matthew, the comparison would be shaky if that's all we had--but remember our rules of interpretation. Often it is the context that determines meaning. Let's go on.

Seal 2: Back to Rev 6:3,4. What does the red horse and rider represent? War.

• Matt 24:6 And ye shall hear of wars and rumours of wars: see that ye be not troubled: for all [these things] must come to pass, but the end is not yet.
  Jesus says there will be wars and rumors of wars.

Seal 3: Rev 6:5,6. What does the black horse and rider represent? Famine.

• Matt 24:7 For nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom: and there shall be famines, and pestilences, and earthquakes, in divers places.

Jesus says there will be famines. Are you starting to see a parallel here? Remember, this is all in context to the disciples question: When will be the end of the age?

Seal 4: Rev 6:7-8. Now there are differing opinions on who this fourth horse and rider represent. Some believe it is pestilence or disease while others believe this signifies the beginning of Christian persecution. I personally believe it represents Satan's wrath against the elect. Here are my reasons: first of all, authority is given to kill 25% of the earth. Statistically, those who make up Christianity in the world to include Roman Catholics, is said to be around 25%. Second, the names Death and Hades were following him. I believe that will be the choice of those who claim the name of Christ. Choose Christ and die. Choose antichrist and seal your fate in Hades. And third, the phrase "power or authority was given" in verse 8 parallels Rev 13:7.

• Rev 13:7 And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations.

In the New Revised Standard Version, it translates the word "death" in verse 8 as "pestilence". In my opinion, this is not that important. Let's look at Matt 24:7 again and I'll show you why. If you believe the fourth rider is pestilence, Jesus mentions it here, which certainly could fit. Where there is mass death associated with famine, pestilence certainly follows.

• Matt 24:9 Then shall they deliver you up to be afflicted, and shall kill you: and ye shall be hated of all nations for my name's sake.

If you believe the fourth rider represents persecution, it is also a part of the 70th week. It doesn't really matter which interpretation you take of the Fourth Seal. It does not affect the chronology of events set forth in Matt 24.

Let's continue with our comparison.

Seal 5: Rev 6:9. Here is a picture of the martyred saints under the altar of God. In Matthew 24:9, I believe both the fourth and the fifth seal are in view here. Let me read it this way: "they will deliver you up to be afflicted (4th seal), and shall kill you (5th seal)".

The fourth seal gives Satan the authority to test the whole world, in particular the professing church which represents 25 percent of the world's population, while the fifth seal pictures those who actually who murdered under the hand of antichrist. It is the actual death toll of true believers.

I want to note two very important things in this passage:

• 1.Read Rev 6:10. Those martyred saints know that their martyrdom was not at the hands of God. They want to know when their blood will be avenged.

• 2.The answer given to them is very important. (Read Rev 6:11). In other words, judgment will not be taken until the number of martyrs is complete. Remember that Jesus teaches that the Great Tribulation will be cut short in Matt 24:21,22, and then immediately cosmic disturbance will occur which will signify the beginning of God's wrath.

Seal 6: Rev 6:12

• Matt 24:29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

Can everyone see the chronological progression of the 70th week of Daniel?

• Seal 1 is opened up, certain events occur. [/*:m:14830]

• Seal 2 is opened up, certain events occur.[/*:m:14830]

• Seal 3 is opened up, certain events occur.[/*:m:14830]

• Seal 4, 5, 6...certain events occur.[/*:m:14830]

And these line up perfectly with the teaching of Jesus in Matt 24. No wonder the pre-tribbers want to get the Church out of Matt 24.

So what's next??

Back to Rev 6:12-17. The very next thing is the announcement that God's wrath is about to begin. This perfectly coincides with the scriptures we've already looked at concerning cosmic disturbance which announce the Day of the Lord. I'd like to show you one more interesting passage which coincides with verses 15-17.

• Isa 2:19 And they shall go into the holes of the rocks, and into the caves of the earth, for fear of the LORD, and for the glory of his majesty, when he ariseth to shake terribly the earth.
  Isa 2:20 In that day a man shall cast his idols of silver, and his idols of gold, which they made [each one] for himself to worship, to the moles and to the bats;
  Isa 2:21 To go into the clefts of the rocks, and into the tops of the ragged rocks, for fear of the LORD, and for the glory of his majesty, when he ariseth to shake terribly the earth.

Again, this is in context with the events directly associated with the Day of the Lord. It is an exact description of Rev 6:12-17!

Back to Rev 6. Now notice that at the opening of the 6th seal, God's judgment does not begin. The disciples asked the question, "what will be the sign of the end of the age (harvest)?" The opening of the 6th seal does not begin God's judgment, but is a warning to the world that it is about to commence. There are two things that must first occur before the Day of the Lord.

Read Rev 7:1-8: One thing that must occur is the sealing of the 144,000 Jewish witnesses. Who are these individuals and why are they sealed and protected? Without going into alot of detail, these are obviously Jews selected to be the first fruits of God and to the lamb. It is very clear that they are to be sealed before the Day of the Lord.

But let me say this about the 144,000. Nowhere in the Bible does it say these are evangelists proclaiming the gospel of Jesus Christ. I don't believe these individuals are saved at the start, because if they were, they would go up in the rapture. They get saved sometime later in the 70th week of Daniel.

Again you may ask, why are they sealed? The reason I believe they are sealed because a great event is about to take place.

Read Rev 7:9-12. There is one more event that must take place before the Day of the Lord. John sees a great multitude that no man could number, representing all nations, tongues, and peoples. They are arrayed in white robes. Who is this great multitude? Let's read on.

Read verses 13-17.

Who is this great multitude? It is the raptured Church! The chronological order follows perfectly with Matt 24:29-31

After the opening of the sixth seal which announces to the world that God's great judgment is about to begin, two things happen. One, the 144,000 are sealed, and two the rapture of the Church takes place. Why are these two events linked? Because I believe God is not going to rapture the Church without leaving a remnant to be his witnesses on the earth. This is the most clear example of "a handing off of the baton" that scripture speaks of.

Now, let me say, that Pre-tribbers will do everything they can to make the great multitude in Revelation 7 martyrs. But there is absolutely no evidence that even suggests such a thing. Again, let's read scripture as it was meant to be read--normal, literal, and customary. There is a definite chronological flow both to Matthew and Revelation. It coincides perfectly.

So if that's so, and the rapture takes place immediately after the opening of the 6th seal, what is the very next event that has to happen? (The Day of the Lord--remember, the removal of the elect and the judgment being on the very same day).

• Rev 8:1 And when he had opened the seventh seal, there was silence in heaven about the space of half an hour.

Why is there silence? Because God's judgment is going to be poured out in the form of the trumpet judgments. And then from this point forth, judgment after judgment is poured out--7 trumpets, and then 7 bowls. And this is the exemption that Paul talked about in 1 Thess 5 when he said that "...God has not appointed us for wrath, but to obtain deliverance (salvation) by our Lord Jesus Christ." The Church is not going to be around to see the awful Day of the Lord that will kill over half the population of the world--the day that Peter says where "the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up."

Now, at this point I want to deal with an argument that many pre-tribbers use to try to remove the Church before the 70th week of Daniel. We touched on it earlier, but let's talk about it in more detail. Most pre-tribbers say that the Day of the Lord begins at the beginning of the 70th week (although more pre-tribbers are refuting that point as we have already pointed out). They say that the entire 7 year period is the wrath of God, and since the Church is not appointed to wrath, then the Church is exempt from Daniel's 70th week.

Now, there are many problems with that.

• Number 1) We have proven exegetically that the Day of the Lord (wrath of God) begins after the opening of the 6th seal.[/*:m:14830]

• Number 2) In the first 5 seals, there is absolutely no mention of the wrath of God whatsoever. It's simply the time that Jesus calls "the beginning of sorrows". In fact, according to Pre-tribbers, it will be a time when antichrist brings temporary peace to the world. If that's so, how can you call that the wrath of God?[/*:m:14830]

• Number 3) In contrast, after the opening of the sixth seal, the word "wrath" in relation to God is mentioned 9 times, but never mentioned in the first 5 seals.[/*:m:14830]

• Number 4) If the first 5 seals are God's wrath, then God is solely responsible for bringing the antichrist to power. To attribute the emergence of the antichrist to God is ridiculous. The emergence of the antichrist will mark a movement toward the greatest rebellion against God in human history. God will allow it, but it is not God's wrath.[/*:m:14830]

• Number 5) If the first 5 seals are God's wrath, then God is solely responsible for martyring his own children. May it never be! God will allow it, as he allowed Satan to test Job, and allowed Satan to sift Peter as wheat. But God will never directly martyr his own. Remember what the martyrs cried under the altar? (When, O Lord, will you avenge our blood?)[/*:m:14830]

• Number 6) Declaring Seals 1-5 God's wrath violates what Jesus said concerning the day of his judgment. He said that when the righteous were removed, sudden destruction will come. Sure, there will be death in the first 3.5 years, but it will not be swift and sudden. According to Jesus, it will be just like the days of Noah, when they were eating and drinking and marrying. But when the trumpets and the bowls come, it will come directly from the hand of God, as 1 Thess 5:1 says, "the Day of the Lord will come like a thief in the night. For when they say peace and safety, sudden destruction shall come upon them."[/*:m:14830]

• Number 7) Antichrist will be given authority and power to cause the whole earth to worship him. If the first 5 seals were God's final wrath, would he allow antichrist to have free reign? No, when God's wrath comes, he will take power away from antichrist, and as Isaiah 13 says "he will cause the arrogancy of the proud to cease, and will lay low the haughtiness of the terrible."[/*:m:14830]

No, the first 5 seals are not God's wrath. The opening of the seals themselves in Rev 5 does not mean that God's wrath begins. It simply means that God will be in total control of what is about to occur on the earth. When the 7th seal is finally opened (silence), that will allow the scroll to open fully, thus releasing the seven trumpets of judgment, and then the seven bowls of judgment.
Again, the pre-tribber have absolutely no scriptural basis whatsoever to claim that the Day of the Lord begins at the opening of the 1st seal. But the Bible does say that the Day of the Lord does indeed begin after the opening of the 6th seal which is well inside the 70th week of Daniel.

Now let's look at another passage of scripture which we will see parallels what Christ taught.

 

[Judy]

D. 1 Thess 4-5

Now, we've already touched upon this passage, but we will see that Paul makes the same case to Gentile believers as Christ made to Jewish believers.

If, as we have already argued, the Olivet discourse refers to the rapture of the Church, then the rapture that Paul refers to should also occur in connection with the beginning of the Day of the Lord. As a matter of fact, Paul, in verse 15 says that this revelation came by "the Word of the Lord." He was taught by Christ himself! Let's begin with Chapter 4:13,14.

• 1 Thess 4:13 But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.
  1 Thess 4:14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.

First of all, the question these believers had was "what happens to their brothers who have died?" Paul reassures them that they will be taken to be with the Lord. And then he begins to give them what many consider to be the classic rapture passage.

• 1 Thess 4:15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive [and] remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
  1 Thess 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
  1 Thess 4:17 Then we which are alive [and] remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
  1 Thess 4:18 Wherefore comfort one another with these words.

Paul's instruction on the Lord's parousia is very clear. He then continues on into chapter 5, and it is very easy to follow his line of thought. Now although the question is not specifically asked, the logical question would be, when? When would this happen, Paul? So before they could ask it, Paul gives them the answer.

• 1 Thess 5:1 But of the times and the seasons, brethren, ye have no need that I write unto you.
  1 Thess 5:2 For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night.
  1 Thess 5:3 For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape.
  1 Thess 5:4 But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief.

When will the rapture occur? It will occur in conjunction with the Day of the Lord! Paul is saying look: as to the times and the seasons, you don't need me to write to you. For you know that the Day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night for unbelievers. But you are not in darkness that that Day should overtake you as a thief.

In other words, Paul is saying, the Day of the Lord will not surprise you, because you will be alert and watching for it.

• 1 Thess 5:6 Therefore let us not sleep, as [do] others; but let us watch and be sober.

It was the same exact thing Jesus was saying to his disciples.

• Matt 24:32 Now learn a parable of the fig tree; When his branch is yet tender, and putteth forth leaves, ye know that summer [is] nigh: Matt 24:33 So likewise ye, when ye shall see all these things, know that it is near, [even] at the doors.

Jesus is saying when you see these signs, know that my return is near. Paul is saying, be alert and sober, so that the Day of the Lord will not overtake you as a thief. It is obvious when reading the text in a plain sense, that Paul was linking the rapture and the Day of the Lord together. This perfectly parallels what Christ taught in Matt 24.

Some pre-tribbers will say that Paul is not linking the two, but rather describing two separate end-time events. They say that chapter 5 has no bearing to the rapture he just described in chapter 4. Again, this violates simple rules of interpretation. If the plain sense makes sense, you have the right sense.

Remember, chapter and verse divisions did not come about until about the 14th century. There is a definite flow of continuity between these two chapters. Let me give you an example: Turn to Heb 11 and read the end of the chapter and through the beginning of chapter 12. It is obvious there is a continuity of thought here. The writer of Hebrews says that we are to mimic the faith of those before us, keeping our eyes on Jesus. Isn't it just as obvious that Paul is continuing his thought from chapter 4 to 5 in 1 Thessalonians?

Also, the first word in Chapter 5, verse 1 is the word "but". In the Greek that's the word Peri de (Perry-Day). It's a transitional phrase in the Greek which means a continuation of the same subject, but moving into a different area of the same subject.

• 1 Thess 4:13 But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.

Now, look at verse 13 of chapter 4. Paul says, "But I would not have you to be ignorant." The word ignorant doesn't mean how we would use it today. When we say someone is ignorant today, we usually mean that they are stupid or idiotic. In this particular use though, Paul is saying "but I would not have you thinking wrongly about this, and you are". It was a way of correcting someone who had wrong thinking--and they were thinking wrongly, and Paul had to correct them. Now, with that in mind,

• 1 Thess 5:1 But of the times and the seasons, brethren, ye have no need that I write unto you.
  1 Thess 5:2 For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night.

Look at verse 2: "For you yourselves know PERFECTLY...". What's this in reference to?? The Day of the Lord. And what do they know about the Day of the Lord? It comes like a thief in the night. And how well do they know it? Perfectly!

So Paul says, that you have no need for me to write to you because you know perfectly! Let me tell you what Paul is doing. Look again at 4:13. What problem is Paul addressing in chapter 4? The dead in Christ will rise. What is it he says about their thinking concerning this issue? They are ignorant. In chapter 4, they were thinking wrongly in reference to the dead in Christ. But how are they thinking about the Day of the Lord? Perfectly.

Paul is contrasting their thinking in Chapter 4 and their thinking in Chapter 5. One, they're ignorant. The other, they're thinking perfectly. This was a common writing style of Paul. He is intimately associating what is being said in Chapter 4 with Chapter 5. To try to divorce chapter 4 from chapter 5 violates the literal methodology of interpretation.

• 1 Thess 5:9 For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,
  1 Thess 5:10 Who died for us, that, whether we wake or sleep, we should live together with him.

What was Paul saying in Chapter 4? He was talking about the dead in Christ and those who are alive and remain going up in the rapture!! Here in verse 10, he's talking about the dead and alive in Christ who will be with the Lord. And he ties it all to the Day of the Lord!

This text is clearly teaching that the rapture immediately preceeds the Day of the Lord. Again, let me quote a pre-trib Greek scholar, Dr. John Sproule:

• 
  "Every Old Testament passage containing this phrase (Day of the Lord) can be linked to the final portion of Daniel's 70th week, when God's wrath is poured out upon the Gentile nations. If this is true, then Pre-Tribs must face the critical problem of 1 Thess 5:1-11, and 2 Thess 2:1-5, which seem to link the rapture with the Day of the Lord".

You cannot put the Day of the Lord out here but say that the rapture occurs 4-5 years earlier. It just doesn't hold up.

One more thing that I think you'll find interesting. I've been trying to show you that the scriptures teach that the Church will go through the 70th week of Daniel and suffer persecution by antichrist. This passage in 1 Thess 4 clearly is linked to the Day of the Lord which we've confirmed is in the second half of the 70th week.

• 1 Thess 4:15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive [and] remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
  1 Thess 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
  1 Thess 4:17 Then we which are alive [and] remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

That word remain is very interesting. To my knowledge this word is only used twice in the whole Bible, in these verses. The Greek word is perileipo (per-ee-li-po). It literally means survivor, or one who survives. We can then read the verse this way: "And we which are alive and survive or are the surviving ones...". What is Paul saying? If the rapture occurs immediately after the cutting short of the Great Tribulation (Matt 24:29), right before the Day of the Lord, then Paul is saying that those who have died in Christ, along with those who survive the Great Persecution, will be caught up in the clouds to be with the Lord forever.

So not only is the link between chapter 4 and 5 clear, but Paul is choosing his words very carefully to describe the exact timing of this event.

Let's look at another passage which also parallels Christ's teaching.

E. 2 Thess 1:4-8:

A short time after Paul wrote his first letter to the Thessalonians, a crisis arose in their Church. False teachers had come into their midst and taught them that the Day of the Lord had already begun. At that time, they were experiencing severe persecution, and were beginning to doubt Paul's words.

• 2 Thess 1:4 So that we ourselves glory in you in the churches of God for your patience and faith in all your persecutions and tribulations that ye endure:
  2 Thess 1:5 [Which is] a manifest token of the righteous judgment of God, that ye may be counted worthy of the kingdom of God, for which ye also suffer:
  2 Thess 1:6 Seeing [it is] a righteous thing with God to recompense tribulation to them that trouble you;
  2 Thess 1:7 And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,
  2 Thess 1:8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:

Let's see if we can pick up the parallel to the Olivet Discourse.

• First In verse 6, we have the persecution (affliction) [/*:m:c7fef]

• Second In verse 7, we have the cutting short of the persecution. The New International Version is much closer to the original Greek. Verse 7 is translated, "...and give relief to you who are afflicted, and to us as well."[/*:m:c7fef]

• Third The cutting short is followed by the fiery judgment of God. "This will happen when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven in blazing fire with his powerful angels."[/*:m:c7fef]

Clearly, Paul tells them precisely what he told them in his first letter. God will give them relief from their affliction, when Jesus is revealed from heaven. In other words, the faithful will be rescued from persecution before the wrath of God is poured out upon the wicked during the Day of the Lord. It's the same thing Jesus taught, and also what the book of Revelation substantiates. Finally, let's take a look at one more critical passage.

 

[Judy]

F. 2 Thess 2:1-4

Again, remember false teachers had come into the Church of Thessalonica and were teaching them that the Day of the Lord had already begun, and that Christ's coming was to occur at any moment. So, those in the church had stopped working, and were basically sitting on a hill waiting for Christ to return (2 Thess 3:10). Let's look at Paul's instruction.

• 2 Thess 2:1 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and [by] our gathering together unto him,
  2 Thess 2:2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.

In verse one the word for coming is ......? (parousia). And in verse 2, Paul refers to the Day of Christ (synonymous with the Day of the Lord--Luke 17:26). So again, Paul is linking the rapture with the Day of the Lord. He will first rescue the righteous and then judge the unrighteous.

• 2 Thess 2:3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for [that day shall not come], except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

So according to what I just read, before his coming, and before the Day of Christ, what must occur first? (the falling away) Now before we go on, we need to look at this phrase the falling away. The Greek word used here is the word apostasia. And the Greek construction gives it a definite article. Paul is saying, that first THE apostasy must come. This word is only used twice in the Bible, so how it is used is extremely important. I do not believe this is the general falling away that Paul refers to in 1 Tim 4:1. I'll show you why.

• Acts 21:21 And they are informed of thee, that thou teachest all the Jews which are among the Gentiles to forsake Moses, saying that they ought not to circumcise [their] children, neither to walk after the customs.

Paul of course was preaching the gospel of grace to the Jews. Jews, who were not willing to forsake the law, accused Paul of teaching apostasy against Moses. Look again at the verse. The word "forsake" is the word for apostasy. This is only 1 of 2 times this word is used in the Bible. And it is used in context to Paul being rebuked for teaching Jews to apostatize or renounce the law. Paul is using it in the exact same way in 2 Thessalonians.

• 2 Thess 2:3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for [that day shall not come], except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
  2 Thess 2:4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.

What is the apostasy Paul is speaking about? He is speaking of the Jews who, during the 70th week, will abandon their fathers, in favor of the antichrist. And when the antichrist desecrates the temple, he will be revealed to the Jews for who he really is. Taken in context, Paul is saying Christ's coming will not come until you see the abomination of Desolation. If you believe in a literal interpretation of the Bible, this is the only way this passage can be taken.

The general falling away spoken of in 1 Tim 4:1, does not have a definite article, it is a general departure. The word used is not the same word as used in 2 Thess 2. I believe we are seeing the fulfillment of 1 Tim 4:1 now, but it will get worse and will mark one of the signs Jesus gives us in the 70th week (Matt 24:10-12).

So Paul says, the coming of the Lord and the Day of the Lord can't come until the apostasy and the man of sin is revealed. In other words, Paul is saying look for the Abomination of Desolation. Jesus tells us in Matt 24:15 to look for the Abomination of Desolation. When we compare scripture with scripture, we get a clear, and non-contradictory picture of when the rapture of the Church begins.

We have finished our exegetical defense of the Pre-Wrath rapture looking at several key passages that speak very clearly of the coming of our Lord in relation to the Day of the Lord. Before we move on to look at specific arguments pre-tribbers use, I want to say one more thing.

Folks, the Bible was written for us to understand. The first coming of Christ was predicted very clearly, and so, I submit to you, was the 2nd coming. Read these passages yourself, not with a fine magnifying glass, but simply read them as if Jesus and Paul were speaking directly to you. Read it like you would a letter.

Although I have gone to some extent in detail as to the meaning of certain words in the Greek, my defense of this subject can stand without the Greek argument. When you read the scriptures the way they were meant to be read, that is normal, literal, and customary, then, in my opinion you can only come to one conclusion. Do not say that "imminence" means any moment if the Bible never says that. Do not call the 70th week of Daniel the "Tribulation Period" if the Bible never calls it that. Do not call the seals of Revelation the Wrath of God unless the Bible says so. Do not try to attribute some other meaning to Matt 24 unless the Bible specifically does that.

In other words, be very careful not to try to fit the scriptures into a theological view. But instead let's form our theological views on what the Bible says. In our conclusion we will look at why pre-tribbers are so staunch in their views, and why they won't change. Don't be like that. Be a Berean. Check these things out. Read and study the scriptures yourself. Men can be wrong. But the Bible never contradicts itself, never.

And as to the response that "Oh, we will never be able to know the truth of the timing of the 2nd coming", I say-----BUNK! The disciples asked Christ when they would see him again, and he told them exactly! There was no hidden agenda, no veiling. The Lord wants us to be ready and watching for the signs of His return. Let's not let the tradition of men or our own prejudices affect our readiness or watchfulness. OK, I'll stop preaching now. Let's move on.

 

[Judy]

VII. Arguments for Pre-Tribulation Rapturism


Let's take em one by one. As you will see, the reasons for pre-tribulation rapturism is based on weak inference, and not sound biblical interpretation.

1) The absence of the word "Church" in the book of Revelation

Pre-Tribbers say that because the word Church is not used after Revelation, Chapter 3, the Church therefore cannot be in the 70th week. It is mentioned 19 times in Chap 1-3, but never again in the book.

In response to this argument, while it is true that the word Church is not used after Chapter 3, the word saint is used numerous times throughout Revelation. This same word is used all throughout the New Testament to speak of those in the Church.

In addition, this argument does not invalidate the Pre-Wrath rapture view. On the contrary, it validates it. According to Pre-Wrath, there is a heavenly scene in Chapter 5, and then somewhere between chapter 6 and 7 the Church is raptured. After that point, the rest of Revelation deals with the judgment of God, so the Church would not be in view anyway.

2) The Rapture occurs in Rev 4:1

• Rev 4:1 After this I looked and, behold, a door was opened in heaven; and the first voice that I heard was, as it were of a trumpet talking with me; which said, Come up here, and I will show thee things which must be hereafter.

Pre-Tribbers say that since John hears a trumpet and is called up to heaven, then this represents the rapture.

Without being too harsh, this interpretation is worse than inference and totally without biblical justification. To equate Rev 4:1 to the rapture would be like adopting Oriegen's allegory method of interpretation--which pre-tribbers would normally reject. I've only brought this argument up because it is frequently used to support pre-trib. It is very, very weak.

3) "God has not appointed us to wrath"

The pre-tribber strongly believes the Church will not go through the wrath of God. The Pre-Wrath view agrees with this. The point of contention is not whether we go through God's wrath, but when does that wrath begin? Most pre-tribbers believe that God's wrath begins at the beginning of Daniel's 70th week, so the rapture must occur before the 7 year period. I think I have clearly shown from the Bible that the Wrath of God (The Day of the Lord) begins after the midway point with the opening of the 7th seal. Again, the rapture and the Day of the Lord begin on the same day. So, if the Day of the Lord begins inside the 70th week, then the rapture also must occur inside the 70th week.

4) The Gap theory.
There are some pre-tribbers who want to say that the Day of the Lord begins after the sixth seal, but still the rapture occurs 5 or 6 years earlier. I call this the Gap theory. They use the passage in Gen 7:4 to try and prove this.

• Gen 7:4 For yet seven days, and I will cause it to rain upon the earth forty days and forty nights; and every living substance that I have made will I destroy from off the face of the earth.

They explain the gap theory this way: God told Noah to gather the animals, get in the ark, and then in seven days he would send the flood. They then say that since Noah entered the ark 7 days before flood began, this represents the rapture of the Church well before the Day of the Lord begins. There are 3 major problems with that:


1.Where does it say that in verse 4? Could it mean also that God was telling Noah he had seven more days of preparation before the flood waters would come? The context just is not clear. So if the a word or verse is not clear, the next step is to look at the entire passage.

2.The passage seems to be very clear as we read further.

• Gen 7:12 And the rain was upon the earth forty days and forty nights.
  Gen 7:13 In the selfsame day entered Noah, and Shem, and Ham, and Japheth, the sons of Noah, and Noah's wife, and the three wives of his sons with them, into the ark;

It appears here to be saying that Noah entered the same day as the rains came? Is there still a doubt? Let's compare scripture with scriptrue.

3.The gap theory contradicts the words of Jesus. Jesus plainly said that on the same day that Noah entered the ark, judgment came and took them all away. How much clearer can you get? This is a perfect example of twisting scripture to fit a theological view? Remember our rules of interpretation? First look at the verse, then look at the context, then compare scripture with scripture. So when we do that, the Gap theory becomes just another view that is unsupported and without exegetical support!

5) "The Blessed Hope"
Pre-tribbers rightly say that the return of Christ is the blessed hope (Titus 2:12-13). They question, however, on how the return of Christ can be a blessed hope if the Church must first experience the wrath of the Tribulation period?

Again, there is no scriptural basis for such an argument. It is based purely on emotionalism and human reasoning. But I will use the opposite extreme. I say that the blessed hope is more blessed if we are going through difficult times than when things are going well. Persecution has always been good for the Church. And it is in difficult times, not fat times, that we experience real closeness and intimacy with the Lord. But the reality is, although the Church will go through persecution, we will not see the awesome wrath of God--we will be with Christ, and that is a blessed hope!

6) Imminence and Holiness

Pre-Tribulation rapturists contend that anything but a pre-trib rapture gives the Church a license to sin. They say that the imminent return of Christ is the single most important motivator that the Church has for holiness, and without it, the Church will simply not live the way she ought until she sees the signs of the end, and then she will repent. Although I admire the desire to preach holiness, the return of Christ is not the single most important motivator for holiness. The most important reason we should live holy simply is because we love Him. Christ said very clearly in John 14:21 that if we say we love Him, then we will keep his commandments.

While it is true, that the Bible clearly exhorts us to live holy in the light of his return, again--the Bible does not teach imminence as taught by the pre-tribbers. The Bible teaches expectancy--that is, we are to live expectantly in the light of his soon coming return. We are to be awake, sober, and watching for his return.

 

[Judy]

7) "No man knows the Day or the Hour"

Pre-Tribbers say that if you believe the Church will endure the tribulation, then you will know exactly to the day when Christ will return, thus violating the passage in Matt 24, where "no man knows the day or the hour."

This would be true for the Post-Tribulation viewpoint. But the Bible does not teach Post-Tribulation rapturism. It clearly states that the Church will be removed prior to the Day of the Lord.

The Pre-Wrath view in no way violates the passage that no man knows the day or the hour. With the Pre-Wrath view, we don't know how long the Great Tribulation will be. It could be 6 months long to 3 years--until the amputation of it. In fact, this argument, which is used to destroy the Post-Trib view, actually makes the Pre-Wrath view stronger. Although Jesus did say that we could not know the day or the hour, he did say we would know the general time frame. As we saw in Matt 24:32-34, Jesus said when you see all these things know that his return is at the door. 8. Dispensationalism

By far, the biggest argument for pre-trib rapturism is the strong belief in dispensationalism. If you remember, we defined dispensationalism as the belief in a separate Israel and a separate Church. The pre-tribber would contend that since the Church was not around during the first 69 weeks of Daniel's prophecy, it will not be in the 70th week of Daniel. In other words, pre-tribbers believe that the 70th week is the dispensation specifically for Israel. So, if the 70th week is a time when God deals with his chosen people, the Church cannot be a part of it.

In response, a fair question should be asked. On what basis can it be argued that since the Church was not in the Old Testament, it can't be in the 70th week? Certainly not on the basis of the Bible!

Again, the problem with this argument is that it has no biblical support. Sure it sound good, but that doesn't mean its true. The Church did not exist before Pentecost, so it couldn't be in the OT. The Church does exist now, however, so it can be in the 70th week. And that's exactly what the Bible teaches which I believe has been clearly shown.

But let's deal with their argument:

First, with the birth of the Church (Acts 2), God did not stop his working with Israel. Bible scholars have always looked at the book of Acts to be a book of transition from Israel to the Church--from the age of law to the age of grace. The first converts were Jews (Acts 2). Early believers continued to go to the temple for worship (Acts 3:1).

Secondly, it would be impossible to defend the position that a Jewish man, who was deemed righteous and acceptable before God under the OT economy the day before Christ died, was unrighteous and rejected the day after Christ's death. The period after the death and resurrection of Christ was the passing of the old economy to the new one--but both economies co-existed for a period of time.

The 70th week will be exactly the same. It will be a transitional period, in reverse this time, from the Church to Israel. As Israel entered the Church age, the Church will enter the 70th week.

The Church will enter the 70th week and co-exist with Israel. God will have purposes for both, cleansing for the church and judgment and salvation for the Jews. Then both will live and reign with Christ forever.

The problem with this argument is the extreme that pre-tribbers go to protect dispensationalism. I am a dispensationalist, but that does not mean that dispensationalism automatically exempts the church from the 70th week. Again, we must not base our theology on what we think the Bible says, but what the Bible actually teaches. And clearly the Bible teaches that the Church will enter the 70th week.

9) Rev 2-3, Periods of Church History

The Pre-Trib argument is that the seven churches in chapters 2-3 of Revelation represent seven distinct periods of Church history. Gary Cohen outlines his view on this:

• Ephesus--The Apostolic Church (AD 30-100)[/*:m:af41e]

• Smyrna-- The Persecuted Church (AD 100-313)[/*:m:af41e]

• Pergamos--The State Church (AD 313-590)[/*:m:af41e]

• Thyatira--The Papal Church (AD 590-1517)[/*:m:af41e]

• Sardis--The Reformed Church (AD 1517-1730)[/*:m:af41e]

• Philadelphia--The Missionary Church (AD 1730-1900)[/*:m:af41e]

• Laodicea--The Apostate Church (AD 1900- )[/*:m:af41e]

Therefore, according to Cohen, when we reach Rev 4:1, church history is complete and the church is raptured before all the events in Revelation.

Well, again, this view has some serious flaws.

• First of all, there is nothing in this text that indicates these are periods of church history, nothing![/*:m:af41e]

• Secondly, this view is totally subjective. Who determines when a period begins and ends? Church history is not that clear cut.[/*:m:af41e]

• Third, the terms given to the seven churches do not fully conform to everything that is written in the letters.[/*:m:af41e]

Well, how then should these 7 churches be understood? Simply as this: Revelation is a prophetic book about end times. Everything in this book is prophetic, including the first 3 chapters. Frequently in the Bible, historical events are addressed and then linked to future events. For example: in Matt 10:1-15, Jesus sends out his disciples to minister throughout Israel. He told them what to take, what to say, and what to expect. Then without any noted interruption, he began speaking about the end of the age. He told them that in that future day, he would give them words to speak and what the results would be.
Another example: Daniel wrote about Antiochus Epiphanes who would persecute the Jews and defile their temple in 168 BC (Daniel 11:21-35). He then uses this historic event to describe the antichrist and what he will do to the temple (Daniel 11:36-45). We are to look at the seven churches in Revelation in the same exact way. These were actual historical churches which had certain strengths and weaknesses. These are the exact strengths and weaknesses the church will have as she enters the 70th week. Look at the prophetic words given to these churches:

• First, look at the promises to the overcomers: 2:7, 2:11, 2:17, 2:26, 3:5, 3:12, 3:21.[/*:m:af41e]

• Second, look at the references to Christ's near coming: 2:5, 2:16, 2:25, 3:3, 3:11, 3:20.[/*:m:af41e]

• Third, look at the references to patience (which is translated: endurance under affliction): 2:2, 2:19, 3:10 [/*:m:af41e]

• Fourth, look at the warning to the church of Sardis: 3:1,3[/*:m:af41e]

Pre-tribbers do not look at these churches as warnings to them while they are in the 70th week, but see them simply as periods of church history. They do this simply to sustain pre-tribulation rapturism.

But to do this ignores the clear and direct warnings given to the churches, and it avoids the urgent warnings to be ready, and exhortations to endure to the end.

Again, look at the scriptures literally, do not assign subjective rationales to them which have no biblical basis.

10) Rev 3:10

Second to the dispensational argument, Rev 3:10 is what pre-tribbers hang their hats on. Let's read it.

• Rev 3:10 Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth.

Pre-tribbers will say that since Jesus says that I will keep thee from the hour of testing, then we are exempt from the 70th week of Daniel.

Again, if we look at Rev 2-3 in context to the prophetic nature of the book, it is clear that Christ is warning the churches to prepare and to be overcomers during the 70th week. But what about this tough verse?

Robert Gundry, a post-tribber, says that "Rev 3:10 is the most debated verse in the rapture discussion." And many see 3:10 as the key in understanding the rapture issue. Some go far to say that this verse is the watershed verse that divides the different positions.

We need to be very careful to base a biblical viewpoint on one scripture. There are men who take one or two passages in the Bible and say that a believer can lose their salvation. But clearly, as a whole, the Bible teaches that a believer's salvation is secure. So what do we do? We take those few debatable scriptures and reconcile them to what the Bible on the whole teaches concerning eternal security. The same rule applies here. On the surface, it appears that Rev 3:10 is saying that the church is not to go through the great testing, but what about the tens of other passages (which we have looked at), that indicate otherwise. So we must therefore reconcile this one difficult passage with what we the Bible clearly says on the whole concerning the rapture of the church.

As we have seen earlier in many instances, what a text appears to be saying in English is not at always what it says in the Greek. Although not all scholars agree, I will give you a possible interpretation of Rev 3:10.

The phrase in question is the phrase "keep thee from". Pre-tribbers would say that clearly says removal from. But is there another possibility? The Greek word used is the word "tereo". It can carry the idea of protecting someone while he is in the sphere of danger. But there is a tiny word used in conjunction with this word tereo. It is the Greek work ek. This word is in direct contrast to another preposition apo. Apo means kept outside of. Ek means within the sphere. It is this preposition ek that is used in conjunction with the word tereo--so we have the word tereo ek. Alexander Reese says this about Rev 3:10:

• "the use of ek in Rev 3:10 distinctly implies that the Overcomer would be in the hour of tribulation; the promise refers either to removal from out of the midst of it, or preservation through it."

It is very interesting to note, that there is only one other time in the entire NT that tereo ek is used. And that is found in John 17:15.

• John 17:15 I pray not that thou shouldest take them out of the world, but that thou shouldest keep them from the evil.

So while Greek scholars are definitely not in agreement, there is strong evidence to suggest that Rev 3:10 is not referring to a removal from the testing, but either a removal while in it or a protection while within it. Again, any unclear verse must be compared with other passages talking on the same subject that are clear. So although, on the surface, Rev 3:10 appears to be saying one thing, it actually could mean just the opposite when considering the Greek and comparing it with John 17:15
11) Who is the restrainer spoken of in 2 Thess 2:7

• 2 Thess 2:7 For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth [will let], until he be taken out of the way.
  2 Thess 2:8 And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:

Who is the restrainer? Most pre-tribulation rapturists believe the restrainer is either the church or the Holy Spirit--with the majority leaning toward the Holy Spirit. Their explanation goes something like this: the restrainer is the Holy Spirit, and antichrist cannot be revealed until the Spirit is removed. Since the Spirit indwells all believers, then when the Holy Spirit is removed, so is the church. Well that certainly is an interesting view, there's only one problem with it. Again, this argument lacks any biblical support whatsoever. First of all, there is no verse in the Bible that calls the Holy Spirit a restrainer of sin, and certainly in this verse there is absolutely no indication of this. But there is one being in the Bible who is specifically called a restrainer.

• Daniel 10:12 Then said he unto me, Fear not, Daniel: for from the first day that thou didst set thine heart to understand, and to chasten thyself before thy God, thy words were heard, and I am come for thy words.
  Daniel 10:13 But the prince of the kingdom of Persia withstood me one and twenty days: but, lo, Michael, one of the chief princes, came to help me; and I remained there with the kings of Persia.

Scholars agree that this verse is talking about Michael the archangel. In his relationship to Israel he is called Michael your prince.

• Daniel 10:21 But I will shew thee that which is noted in the scripture of truth: and [there is] none that holdeth with me in these things, but Michael your prince.

The word holdeth there in the Hebrew can be translated restrainer. The name itself means Who is like God? And the prophet Daniel is told that Michael is the great prince who standeth for the children of thy people

• Daniel 12:1 And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation [even] to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book.

Both Christian and Jewish scholars believe that Michael, the archangel has a special guardian relationship over the children of Israel.

• Jude 1:9 Yet Michael the archangel, when contending with the devil he disputed about the body of Moses, durst not bring against him a railing accusation, but said, The Lord rebuke thee.

In the Midrash, a Jewish book of interpretations, it says this about Michael,

• "The Holy One, Blessed be He, said to Michael, 'you are silent? You do not defend my children.'"

Now remember we said that at the midpoint of the 70th week, there was a war in heaven? Remember? And who did the war involve? Michael and Satan--Rev 12:7-17. And do you remember immediately what Satan did after he was thrown to the earth? He persecuted the woman, verse 13.

Go back to Daniel 12:1. The phrase "stand up" is agreed to be accurately translated "stand aside" or " to be inactive" (this according to Rashi--one of Israel's greatest scholars). Michael, in chapter 10:13,21, had earlier fought for Israel, but now is stepping aside or being inactive as a restrainer. When, according to 12:1, does this happen? At the midpoint. How do we know this? Look at what he says: "After Michael steps aside, there will be a time of trouble, such as never was..." Does this sound familiar? Look at what Jesus says after the Abomination occurs

• Matt 24:21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.

There is no doubt what is happening here. Michael, who is Israel's protector, will fight with Satan, and cast him down to the earth. He will step aside at the midpoint of the 70th week, and allow Satan to indwell the antichrist, cause him to desecrate the temple and then severely persecute Israel (and us by the way).

Now, lets go back to 2 Thess 2:7

• 2 Thess 2:7 For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth [will let], until he be taken out of the way.

The word hindereth means to hold down, and the phrase taken out of the way means to step aside. So according to Paul here, the restrainer, will continue to restrain, until he steps aside. Exactly what Daniel tells us will happen. And according to Paul, when does this happen? Well, look at the context of the chapter. It's when antichrist exalts himself in the temple, precisely in the middle of the 70th week.

No, there is no evidence that the Holy Spirit, the church, or human government is the restrainer. But as I have shown, there is strong evidence to suggest that the restrainer that Paul is speaking of, is none other than Michael, the archangel.

 

[Judy]

VIII. Conclusion
I want to take a few minutes and conclude this study with a few more points.

A. Position of the early church

As I stated earlier, the Pre-Tribulation rapture view started around 1830. It became popular under John Darby, who was a member of the Plymouth Brethren. Let me quote from S.P. Tregelles, speaking of the start of this movement:

• I am not aware that there was any definite teaching that there would be a secret rapture of the Church at a secret coming, until this was given forth as an "utterance" in Mr. Irving's church, from what was there received as being the voice of the Spirit. It came not from the Holy Scripture, but from that which falsely pretended to be the Spirit of God.

Tregelles, was a Greek scholar, also of the Plymouth Brethren, who adamantly opposed John Darby's new theology. Apparently, there was a local charismatic church where there was some sort of utterance concerning a secret rapture of the church. John Darby took it and popularized it, but not without stirring quite a controversy. In no way, did the early church teach pre-tribulation rapturism. In fact, quite the contrary. The testimony of the early church was that they would see antichrist and suffer persecution at his hands. This, as I have shown, is consistent with both Jesus and Paul. Let me give you a few quotes:

• Tertullian: "That the beast Antichrist with his false prophet may wage war on the Church of God....Since, then, the Scriptures both indicate the stages of the last times, and concentrate the harvest of the Christian hope in the very end of the world."[/*:m:9f938]

• Justin Martyr: "The man of apostasy...shall venture to do unlawful things on the earth against us, the Christians." [/*:m:9f938]

• The Pastor of Hermas: "Happy ye who endure the Great Tribulation that is coming."[/*:m:9f938]

• Iranaeus: "And the ten kings...shall give their kingdom to the beast, and put the Church to flight." [/*:m:9f938]

• Barnabas: "Take heed, lest resting at our ease, as those who are called of God, we should fall asleep in our sins, and the wicked prince, acquiring power over us, should thrust us away from the Kingdom of the Lord."[/*:m:9f938]

• Hippolytus: "Now concerning the tribulation of the persecution which is to fall upon the Church from the adversary. That refers to the 1260 days during which the tyrant is to reign and persecute the Church."[/*:m:9f938]

The persecution of the Church by antichrist was clearly the position of the early church. Pre-tribbers will take their warnings to watch and be alert, and try and build a case for imminence. They try it with the Holy Scriptures as well, but do not succeed.

I am not saying that this proves the Pre-Wrath viewpoint. For if this was all I had, my argument would be very weak. But it re-enforces what the scriptures strongly support, and adds tremendous credibility to the Pre-Wrath position.

B. Why this view now? A fair question to ask is why is this view coming out now. Isn't this just some "new revelation?" No, absolutely not.

First, as I have already showed you, the early church believed the basic premise of the Pre-Wrath view. Charles Haddon Spurgeon, the great English evangelist, although not using the term Pre-Wrath, preached a message on April 23, 1885 outlining the exact sequence that I have tried to show--that first would come great persecution, then the signs in the sky, and finally the coming of the Son of Man in the clouds with power and great glory.

So the only thing that is really new, is the title, "Pre-Wrath". The principles have been believed by the church for 2000 years.

Second, I believe, that in the last days as we get closer to Christ's return, more light will be given to the Church as it relates to prophetic events. I believe we will see a resurgence in the early church view as the Lord begins to prepare his people for the Great Tribulation that is to come. The Pre-Wrath view, without question, is the fastest growing view in America today. And it is so, because it is not based on emotionalism and inference, but sound biblical exegesis.

C. How can such Godly Men be Wrong? You may ask, how can such learned, godly men be wrong on such an important issue? This question I have wrestled with more than any other. I mean, who am I to question great men like Scofield, Ryrie, Walvoord, and Pentecost?

But that's just it. These men are human beings. And humans make mistakes. But let me give you two specific reasons why they aren't willing to change..

The first has to do with the regathering of the nation of Israel which the Bible clearly stated must occur before we would see the end. In 70 AD, the Jews were scattered all over the world, and many thought that that would be the end of Israel. And I believe even the Church asked themselves, "how would Israel ever become a nation again?" So some in the Church began to spirtualize the scriptures, and teach that the church is now Israel.

But others, wanting so much to see the return of Christ, began to invent this doctrine of imminence. These men loved the Lord Jesus, but wanted so much to see Christ, and seeing the near impossibility of Israel ever becoming a nation again, that they rationalized it with the Pre-Trib view.

Ok, but what about now? Israel is a nation. Why haven't these men renounced what the Bible clearly does not teach? Some have. But let me give a second reason why I believe these men won't change by reading a portion of a letter written by a well-known, national Bible teacher.

• "God has given to me a group of precious and wonderful people who serve alongside me...Built into the fabric of all who serve in these various ministries is a commitment to our doctrinal statement which has been historically pretrib. I don't own these ministries. They belong to the Lord and are a stewardship in the hands of God's people. They are at best fragile--even the church which is so strong spiritually and financially. People all over the world are linked to us. Our commitment to a common belief is our foundation. If I were to announce that I had become Post-Trib or Pre-Wrath, the fragile line that holds my ministries together could break. Some of the leadership would turn against me. Many others across the country that feel the kindred spirit and trust us would turn away...would go elsewhere. Even our peripheral ministries would be affected. A lot is at stake for me."

Without question, I believe the major reason why these men don't change is the fact that pre-trib has become such an important part of the Church in America, that if we go against it, people think will think we are preaching some sort of heresy. Without a doubt, if men today like John MacAuthur, James Kennedy, Chuck Swindol, and others were to announce that they now believed the Church was to go through the 70th week, it would no doubt cause major divisions within the church. They feel that this doctrine is not that major of an issue to cause division. While I certainly can understand their desire to protect division, they are doing so at the expense of the truth of God's word.

And while they may feel they are doing the church a favor by protecting her from unnecessary division, in reality they are feeding the church a lie which will have devastating consequences on those who enter the 70th week unprepared. There are warnings throughout the New Testatment, but especially in Revelation concerning those who are not prepared, and those who are not alert.

For some of these leaders, they have been ingrained in the Pre-Trib view for so long, and have taught thousands of people on it, that for them to recant and say they were wrong would be too much for them to do. But many are admitting their error, and I pray many more will do so before we enter this period.

D. Why is this important for us? So why is this important for us? Some of you still may not think this is important? You may say, it is not an essential part of the faith. Or, even if I had to go through this period, I would never take the mark.

Let me tell you something, Christianity worldwide, but in America in particular, is weak at this moment. In America, we have everything we want. We put a great emphasis on our schooling, our jobs, and our standard of living, but very little emphasis on living holy and being prepared for his return.

I am going to make a statement that will be very strong, but also very biblical. Here it is:

The amount of persecution we receive in the 70th week will be in direct proportion to the degree of our faithfulness to God right now!

I firmly believe that most Christians, especially those in our own country, will enter the 70th week totally unaware and unprepared. Most Christians do not put a high priority on holiness in their lives.

I believe the 7 churches in Revelation can be characterized in 3 categories:

• 1. The faithful Church (Philadelphia)

• 2. The compromising Church (Thyatira)

• 3. The dead Church (Sardis)

Very few believers are like Philadelphia and Sardis. But most are like those found in Thyatira.

What are the warnings and promises to these 3 categories?:

• 1.Sardis (dead church): Rev 3:1-3

• 2.Thyatira (compromising church): Rev 2:18-22

• 3.Philadelphia (faithful church): Rev 3:10

Remember, each of these churches have strengths and weaknesses which, I believe, will mark believers who enter Daniel's 70th week. Those who are faithful, who are living holy, will be protected during this time of testing. Those who are dead, who are not believers, the Day of the Lord will come as a thief. But for the majority of compromising Christians, they will take the heat of the fire. And I believe it will be this group that will have the greatest number of martyrs. I believe the Great Thlipsis is to separate true Christians from the dead ones, and when given a choice of taking the mark and living, or refusing the mark and dying, only true believers will refuse the mark but at the expense of their very life.

You have a right to disagree with how I see these passages, but again, you must see the messages to the 7 churches in light of what Jesus and Paul says concerning the 70th week. These messages are urgent. They are strong. There are promises to overcomers. There are warnings to those who are unfaithful.

Yes, it is important to us! This is a litmus test for all of us. What is your commitment level to the Lord Jesus Christ? Salvation is free, but rewards are not. Are you prepared to give your life, right now, for Jesus Christ?

I want to say one more time this information is very important. Although it is not critical as it relates to the Doctrine of Christ and salvation, Paul was very clear on how one receive this particular doctrine.

Remember, Paul was writing to the Thessalonians in his 2nd epistle concerning the false teaching that the Day of the Lord had already come, And he was trying to show what must first occur before that Day would occur. Listen to what Paul says concerning the importance of this doctrine.

• 2 Thess 3:14 And if any man obey not our word by this epistle, note that man, and have no company with him, that he may be ashamed.
  2 Thess 3:15 Yet count [him] not as an enemy, but admonish [him] as a brother.

What Paul is saying is this: This is important. Don't let men (even fellow believers) deceive you. The Day of the Lord cannot come until certain things happen. And if anyone teaches you otherwise, admonish him, and even keep no company with him. Those are pretty harsh words for a doctrine we say is not that important. I say to you it is important and as the Church of Christ, we better wake up to that fact.

I have shared this information with you because it is what God has laid on my heart to do. You are now accountable before God to live in light of what the Scriptures teach.

"Let him who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the Churches."

E. How soon and What should we do? How soon will this be? I don't know. Jesus said that no one would know the day or the hour of his return. But I'll tell you this: we are the first generation since before 70 AD, that legitimately can say, right now, the next event on the prophetic timetable is the covenant between antichrist and Israel. No one has been able to say it because Israel did not become a nation again until 1948, and did not recapture Jerusalem until 1967--and those two things had to happen.

No other event need occur until that confirming covenant.

So, in the light of this, what should we do to prepare?

• 1. Be faithful to God. If there are secret sins in your life, repent. Study the Word, meditate in the Word. Cultivate a close relationship with the Saviour. Stop living for the world, and start living for Christ. Live holy. Watch, eagerly wait, and prepare for his coming.

• 2. Don't do anything else until you see the confirming of the covenant. When you see that, if you are watching, you will have 3.5 years in which to prepare in an orderly manner. In that time, the saints of God will need to band together. Try to get involved in a church that believes the way you believe. And if you can't find one, get with some believers who will encourage you. Remember, most pre-tribbers are counting on an escape from persecution. Don't fall in the same trap.

Let me share one more quote with you on the credibility of this view and a parable, and then we'll be done. This quote is from Dr Walter Kaiser, former dean at Trinity Seminary. He is considered one of the finest OT scholars of our day.

• The Pre-Wrath position is the prophetic position that best understands and properly applies OT prophecy concerning the Day of the Lord as it relates to the 2nd coming of Christ. If the fathers of dispensationalism had been able to choose between the pretribulation and the pre-wrath views, the pre-wrath position would have received their vote, hands down
  Let me end with a parable.

• Matt 24:32 Now learn a parable of the fig tree; When his branch is yet tender, and putteth forth leaves, ye know that summer [is] nigh:
  Matt 24:33 So likewise ye, when ye shall see all these things, know that it is near, [even] at the doors.
  Matt 24:34 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled.

Be ready, be watchful, and be prepared!!

Information compiled and quotations taken from the following sources:
The PreWrath Rapture of the Church" by Marvin Rosenthal
"The Sign" by Robert Van Kampen
"The Rapture Question" by Robert Van Kampen
"The New Scofield Reference Bible"
"The Rapture Question" by John Walvoord

 

[Judy]

Thats the end of this study.. Now if you have any question please ask and I will try to answer them. Maybe I can also get help form Vic and Solo who I know also hold this view.

Thank you for your patients with the long posts. I am sure if you really take the time to read and follow along with this study you will be blessed.

Be ready, be watchful, and be prepared!!

 

[golfjack]

reply

Judy, I must disagree with your premise. I do have a couple of questions?

1. Is there a distinction between the rapture and the Second Coming?

2. Are you basing your position on one womans vision about what you believe?

Do you believe that Pre-trib is from Satan?


May God bless, golfjack

 

[Judy]

Re: reply

Judy, I must disagree with your premise. I do have a couple of questions?

1. Is there a distinction between the rapture and the Second Coming?

2. Are you basing your position on one womans vision about what you believe?

3. Do you believe that Pre-trib is from Satan?


May God bless, golfjack

1. The same day that Jesus comes is the same time that the rapture will happen..... they will not be 3 second comings.

2. I have not idea what woman you are talking about????? I base my opinion on what the bible says. And I believe that we will go through the tribulation and will be raptured with the opening of the 7th seal. Rev. 7:9-17

3. No, I just believe that most christians really don't know what the bible teaches about endtime events and only go by what their pastors have taught them, I also believe it is wishful thinking, No one wants to go throught the tribulation so if they could some how escape it then they are all for it.

I would say just by the questions you have asked you in no way read what I have posted.
So, after you have taken the time to read this study, and you still have questions, I will be glad to answer them.

 

[golfjack]

reply

You know very well what I am talking about. The woman I mentioned I believe was Mcdonald, where this guy Van Kampen seemed to have gotten his information. I will be posting my view about End-times after Christmas. And I don't appreciate you saying this tribble comes from the Word of God. Apparently, you don't know what the Second Coming means. When Jesus comes with His Church, He will place both of His feet just where He was ascended. By the way, what are Tribulation saints to you? What are saints? What are Old Testament Saints? As I am concerned, the information you gave me is false teaching. And I guess these 2 guys are false teachers.



May God bless, Golfjack

 

[Judy]

Re: reply

You know very well what I am talking about. The woman I mentioned I believe was Mcdonald, where this guy Van Kampen seemed to have gotten his information. I will be posting my view about End-times after Christmas. And I don't appreciate you saying this tribble comes from the Word of God. Apparently, you don't know what the Second Coming means. When Jesus comes with His Church, He will place both of His feet just where He was ascended. By the way, what are Tribulation saints to you? What are saints? What are Old Testament Saints? As I am concerned, the information you gave me is false teaching. And I guess these 2 guys are false teachers.



May God bless, Golfjack

LOL!!! Van Kampen didn't get his view from Mcdonald... that is where the Pre-trib got their view.

Listen, if you want to give your opinion thats fine. However you may want to tone your attitude down just a bit.
Before you say I am spreading false teaching why don't you try reading what I posted.

 

[jgredline]

Who is Van Kampen and Mcdonald ?

 

[golfjack]

reply

Jg. They are Pre-wrath. You can find them on the net. When I have time, I can give you all kinds of Scripture that supports Pre-trib. With some of these scriptures, you will have to put your Prophetic eye on. Throughout Scripture, certainly God wants us to know about the future.



May God bless, Golfjack

 

[Judy]

Re: reply

Jg. They are Pre-wrath. You can find them on the net. When I have time, I can give you all kinds of Scripture that supports Pre-trib. With some of these scriptures, you will have to put your Prophetic eye on. Throughout Scripture, certainly God wants us to know about the future.



May God bless, Golfjack

You need to get your facts right.... Robert Van Kampen is pre-wrath

Margret McDonald is Pre-trib!!