Bible Study The Case for the Pre Wrath Rapture

[Judy]

Who is Van Kampen and Mcdonald ?

Robert Van Kampen wrote the book the Sign, and he is the one who after studing endtimes gave a name to what the early church fathers and what the bible teaches.

The Sign (Paperback)
by Robert Van Kampen
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Before God's Wrath: The Bible's Answer to the Timing of the Rapture, Revised and Expanded Edition by H. L. Nigro



Marget Mcdonald, was a young girl who had a vision and that is where the Pre-trib came form.

 

[Judy]

Here is just one of a number of sites that will tell you about Margret McDonald.

According to the best scholarship available, the pretribulation, premillennial eschatology originated among members of the Catholic Apostolic Church as a result of a so-called 'vision' or 'revelation' to Margaret MacDonald.

Now don't laff! But the truth of the matter is that this Margret McDonald, (Scotland) only began having these 'visions' after first getting hit in the head with a rock. And, another truth to the matter is that Margret was only fifteen years of age when she uttered this 'vision' of the rapture.
Absolutely true!
http://bibleforums.org/forum/showpost.p ... stcount=10

 

[golfjack]

reply

All just one man's opinion Judy. It is interesting that this man knows more than most Bible scholars. Noone will never convince me that the rapture and the Second Coming are 2 separate events. Something to ponder about. Was Jesus raptured up to heaven, just like we will be in the future?



May God bless, Golfjack

 

[Solo]

Re: reply

All just one man's opinion Judy. It is interesting that this man knows more than most Bible scholars. Noone will never convince me that the rapture and the Second Coming are 2 separate events. Something to ponder about. Was Jesus raptured up to heaven, just like we will be in the future?



May God bless, Golfjack

Please give me a list of rapture verses, GolfJack.
And please give me a list of 2nd coming verses.

Be as exhaustive as you can be.
Thanks,
Michael

 

[golfjack]

reply

Solo, thank you for your interest. Right now, I want to spend time with my6 family. Be back later.



May God bless, golfjack

 

[Solo]

Re: reply

Solo, thank you for your interest. Right now, I want to spend time with my6 family. Be back later.



May God bless, golfjack

Anytime at your convenience. Merry Christmas.
Michael

 

[Judy]

Re: reply

All just one man's opinion Judy. It is interesting that this man knows more than most Bible scholars. Noone will never convince me that the rapture and the Second Coming are 2 separate events. Something to ponder about. Was Jesus raptured up to heaven, just like we will be in the future?



May God bless, Golfjack

Dude, I never said nor did this study ever say that the rapture and the second coming are two separate events!!

If you are Pre-Trib like you say, it is the pre-trib position that believes that the rapture and the second coming are two seperate events.

 

[Vic C.]

Re: reply

All just one man's opinion Judy. It is interesting that this man knows more than most Bible scholars. Noone will never convince me that the rapture and the Second Coming are 2 separate events. Something to ponder about. Was Jesus raptured up to heaven, just like we will be in the future?



May God bless, Golfjack

Hi golfjack. Lets confine the discussion to the ekklesia, not Jesus. Theories on the harpazo are about us, not Him.

You say no one can convince you that the harpazo and Second Advent are two seperate events. Lets see what the Bible says:

1 Th 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
1 Th 4:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

If you believe this passage describes the harpazo (caught up=harpazo) where is Jesus at this time?

Do you see a difference between Tribulation (persecution) and Wrath? Do you believe the first few seals describe God's Wrath or some sort of earthy persecution against the people of God?

What does 1 Thessalonians 5:9 say to you?

You may want to read here what I posted about tribulation.
http://www.christianforums.net/viewtopi ... ht=#311704

You also may want to read here on the history of where the pretribulation view came from.
http://www.aloha.net/~mikesch/antichrist.htm

...and if you think that is just some hoax, here's the whole Google search:

Futurism

If you are really interested in discovering the truth concerning End Time, you should want to study it from all angles and not believe just one camp on End Times... or even us. 8-)

 

[jgredline]

admitingly the end times is not one of my strongest sections in the scriptures...

So in Lay Man terms, are you guys saying that the ''Church'' is going to go through the great tribulation or the tribulation...? Are you saying that Gentiles will be able to be saved during the Great tribulation or only the jews?....

The bible teaches that we are not appointed unto wrath, so where does this fit in?

 

[Solo]

admitingly the end times is not one of my strongest sections in the scriptures...

So in Lay Man terms, are you guys saying that the ''Church'' is going to go through the great tribulation or the tribulation...? Are you saying that Gentiles will be able to be saved during the Great tribulation or only the jews?....

The bible teaches that we are not appointed unto wrath, so where does this fit in?

Until Jesus returns in the clouds after the tribulation all who are born again will be saved, as there is no Jew or Gentile in the age of the New Covenant.

The tribulation will be such as no time prior, nor at no time after; and will be the persecution of satan against those who are born of the woman (Jews), and who hold the testimony of Jesus (Jew and Gentile believers).

 

[Vic C.]

So in Lay Man terms, are you guys saying that the ''Church'' is going to go through the great tribulation or the tribulation...? Are you saying that Gentiles will be able to be saved during the Great tribulation or only the jews?....

The bible teaches that we are not appointed unto wrath, so where does this fit in?

One of the foundations of Pre Wrath is that we see the Tribulation and the Wrath of God as two distinct events. I believe the person who wrote the study Judy posted touched on this.

Pre Wrath bases it's belief on this verse:

1 thess 5:9
9For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,

This wrath we believe is none other than the Wrath of God, which we determine to be the Day of the Lord, as laid out in the OT

So, yes, I believe the ekklesia is subject to Tribulation (persecution) but not suject to Wrath.

See the Christian Forum link I posted in my last post.

 

[golfjack]

reply

Sorry for the confusion. I meant to say that the rapture and Second Coming are 2 separate events.

I now have a little time. So, let's tie some Scriptures to prove the rapture and Second Coming. I don't have time to type out the Scriptures that I will be using, but will give my comments.

1 Thess. 4:13: The hope he referred to here is the resurrection that takes place at the time of the rapture. In Titus 2:11-13, Paul refers to it as that blesswed hope. Then in 1 Thess., Paul began to lay out God's plan for the church ( body of Christ) to escape the seven years of tribulation destined for planet earth ( 1 Thess. 4:14). This verse is in reference to the spiritual bodies of those who have died in Christ. He will bring them to be united with their physical bodies which will be resurrected from the grave, at the shout of the archangel and the trump of God.

There are some who try to relate this verse to Rev. 19:11-16, and Matt. 24:29, 30, which are passages describing the second eventy. But they do not fit in the context, for verses in 1 Thess. 4:15, 16. They clearly establish the fact that verses 13-17 are direct references to the rapture of the Church.

When Paul says, for this we say unto you by the Word of the Lord... I believe he means it came by a personal revelation from Jesus Christ Himself. Paul did receive many revelations directly from the Lord Jesus Christ ( Gal. 1:11, 12).

Many people are confused by verse 16. Take note of the fact that the trump of God in verse 16 is not the same as the trumpet of the seventh angel mentioned in Rev. 11:15, as many have supposed. If you believe that the trump of God and the trumpet of the seventh angel are the same, you will be hopelessly confused in trying to understand end-time events and the sequence in which they occur. This applies also in 1 Cor. 15:52, for they are not the same.


This should be enough to chew on for awhile.


May God bless, Golfjack

 

[Vic C.]

Then in 1 Thess., Paul began to lay out God's plan for the church ( body of Christ) to escape the seven years of tribulation destined for planet earth.

Be careful, this is just an assumption. The verse doesn't really mention a seven year Trib and neither does the Bible... anywhere.

Oh, I may be more aware than you know of what the Last Trump is.

 

[Judy]

admitingly the end times is not one of my strongest sections in the scriptures...

So in Lay Man terms, are you guys saying that the ''Church'' is going to go through the great tribulation or the tribulation...? Are you saying that Gentiles will be able to be saved during the Great tribulation or only the jews?....

The bible teaches that we are not appointed unto wrath, so where does this fit in?

The questions you are asking are also in this study.
The problem people make is trying to say that the whole 7 years are the wrath of God. But that isn't so, and we were only promised that we will not go through God's wrath. Which I believe starts with the opening of the 7th seal. If you look at Rev. 6:17 you will see that that verse states that God wrath is about to being.

• Rev 6: 17. "For the great day of His wrath has come, and who is able to stand?''[/*:m:d0287]

Then you see just what you would think you should see and that is the sealing of the 144,000 Jews (which will have to go through the whole 7 years) Then we have this great multitude that no one could number standing before the throne and we are told that them come out of the great triblation.

• Rev 7:1. After these things I saw four angels standing at the four corners of the earth, holding the four winds of the earth, that the wind should not blow on the earth, on the sea, or on any tree.
  2. Then I saw another angel ascending from the east, having the seal of the living God. And he cried with a loud voice to the four angels to whom it was granted to harm the earth and the sea,
  3. saying, "Do not harm the earth, the sea, or the trees till we have sealed the servants of our God on their foreheads.''
  4. And I heard the number of those who were sealed. One hundred and forty-four thousand of all the tribes of the children of Israel were sealed:
  5. of the tribe of Judah twelve thousand were sealed; of the tribe of Reuben twelve thousand were sealed; of the tribe of Gad twelve thousand were sealed;
  6. of the tribe of Asher twelve thousand were sealed; of the tribe of Naphtali twelve thousand were sealed; of the tribe of Manasseh twelve thousand were sealed;
  7. of the tribe of Simeon twelve thousand were sealed; of the tribe of Levi twelve thousand were sealed; of the tribe of Issachar twelve thousand were sealed;
  8. of the tribe of Zebulun twelve thousand were sealed; of the tribe of Joseph twelve thousand were sealed; of the tribe of Benjamin twelve thousand were sealed.
  9. After these things I looked, and behold, a great multitude which no one could number, of all nations, tribes, peoples, and tongues, standing before the throne and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, with palm branches in their hands,
  10. and crying out with a loud voice, saying, "Salvation belongs to our God who sits on the throne, and to the Lamb!''
  11. And all the angels stood around the throne and the elders and the four living creatures, and fell on their faces before the throne and worshiped God,
  12. saying: "Amen! Blessing and glory and wisdom, thanksgiving and honor and power and might, be to our God forever and ever. Amen.''
  13. Then one of the elders answered, saying to me, "Who are these arrayed in white robes, and where did they come from?''
  14. And I said to him, "Sir, you know.'' So he said to me, "These are the ones who come out of the great tribulation, and washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.
  15. "Therefore they are before the throne of God, and serve Him day and night in His temple. And He who sits on the throne will dwell among them.
  16. "They shall neither hunger anymore nor thirst anymore; the sun shall not strike them, nor any heat;
  17. "for the Lamb who is in the midst of the throne will shepherd them and lead them to living fountains of waters. And God will wipe away every tear from their eyes.''[/*:m:d0287]

We will go through the great tribulation which will be the wrath of Satan. Which starts in the middle of the 7 years with the abomination of desolation.

• Matt 24: 15. "Therefore when you see the `abomination of desolation,' spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing in the holy place'' (whoever reads, let him understand),
  16. "then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains.
  17. "Let him who is on the housetop not come down to take anything out of his house.
  18. "And let him who is in the field not go back to get his clothes.
  19. "But woe to those who are pregnant and to those with nursing babies in those days!
  20. "And pray that your flight may not be in winter or on the Sabbath.
  21. "For then there will be great tribulation, such as has not been since the beginning of the world until this time, no, nor ever shall be.
  22. "And unless those days were shortened, no flesh would be saved; but for the elect's sake those days will be shortened.[/*:m:d0287]

• Rev 12:7. And war broke out in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon and his angels fought,
  8. but they did not prevail, nor was a place found for them in heaven any longer.
  9. So the great dragon was cast out, that serpent of old, called the Devil and Satan, who deceives the whole world; he was cast to the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.
  10. Then I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, "Now salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of His Christ have come, for the accuser of our brethren, who accused them before our God day and night, has been cast down.
  11. "And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb and by the word of their testimony, and they did not love their lives to the death.
  12. "Therefore rejoice, O heavens, and you who dwell in them! Woe to the inhabitants of the earth and the sea! For the devil has come down to you, having great wrath, because he knows that he has a short time.''
  13. Now when the dragon saw that he had been cast to the earth, he persecuted the woman who gave birth to the male Child.
  14. But the woman was given two wings of a great eagle, that she might fly into the wilderness to her place, where she is nourished for a time and times and half a time, from the presence of the serpent.
  15. So the serpent spewed water out of his mouth like a flood after the woman, that he might cause her to be carried away by the flood.
  16. But the earth helped the woman, and the earth opened its mouth and swallowed up the flood which the dragon had spewed out of his mouth.
  17. And the dragon was enraged with the woman, and he went to make war with the rest of her offspring, who keep the commandments of God and have the testimony of Jesus Christ[/*:m:d0287]

 

[golfjack]

reply

Let's look at 1 Thess 5:4-9: Verse 8 in this passage is in reference to the hope of deliverence from the wrath of God that will be poured out upon the wicked during the Tribulation. That blessed hope which we call the rapture will deliver the Body of Christ from the wrath of God that is destined to come on the wicked of the earth. ( Rev. 3:10). God has reserved His wrath for His enemies, not the church ( Nahum 1:2; Rev. 16:1).


May God bless, Golfjack

 

[golfjack]

reply

I have never heard of such ridiclous interpretations in all my life as a Christian. Certainly, my Bible school has never taught this and I doubt if many other Evengelical schools have taught this either.

The interpretation of Rev. 7 sure takes the cake. Chapter 7 is an interlude between the sixth and seventh seals, and reveals those who believed and were faithful to Christ during the the Great tribulation. These people were not saved until the Tribulation. They are both Jews and non-Jew. They finally accepted the Gospel message. I am cerrtainly not an unbeliever or Jew. I am blood bought. Satan for a believer is a defeated foe.



May God bless, Golfjack

 

[Judy]

Re: reply

Let's look at 1 Thess 5:4-9: Verse 8 in this passage is in reference to the hope of deliverence from the wrath of God that will be poured out upon the wicked during the Tribulation. That blessed hope which we call the rapture will deliver the Body of Christ from the wrath of God that is destined to come on the wicked of the earth. ( Rev. 3:10). God has reserved His wrath for His enemies, not the church ( Nahum 1:2; Rev. 16:1).


May God bless, Golfjack

Can you please show me in the bible where the wrath of God starts??

 

[Judy]

Re: reply

I have never heard of such ridiclous interpretations in all my life as a Christian. Certainly, my Bible school has never taught this and I doubt if many other Evengelical schools have taught this either.

The interpretation of Rev. 7 sure takes the cake. Chapter 7 is an interlude between the sixth and seventh seals, and reveals those who believed and were faithful to Christ during the the Great tribulation. These people were not saved until the Tribulation. They are both Jews and non-Jew. They finally accepted the Gospel message. I am cerrtainly not an unbeliever or Jew. I am blood bought. Satan for a believer is a defeated foe.



May God bless, Golfjack

Listen, I have ask you once before to stop with the attitude. I don't mind that we disagree but I really don't think you need to take such a condescending attitude with me.

 

[Vic C.]

Re: reply

Let's look at 1 Thess 5:4-9: Verse 8 in this passage is in reference to the hope of deliverence from the wrath of God that will be poured out upon the wicked during the Tribulation. That blessed hope which we call the rapture will deliver the Body of Christ from the wrath of God that is destined to come on the wicked of the earth. ( Rev. 3:10). God has reserved His wrath for His enemies, not the church ( Nahum 1:2; Rev. 16:1).


May God bless, Golfjack

I'm not quite sure if you actually read what I said or just don't understand it. We are basically saying the same thing. The difference is we seperate Tribulation from Wrath and see it as two seperate events. The OT outlines for us what God's wrath is and it's the Day of the Lord. Nowhere in scripture is the ekklesia told they would ever escape Tribulation. As a matter of fact, we have been in Tribulation for two thousand years. The only difference is the magnitude of Tribulation. The Adversary will be attacking us in a manner never witnessed in history. I see it happening all throughout the world as we speak.

I will repeat what I posted above:

One of the foundations of Pre Wrath is that we see the Tribulation and the Wrath of God as two distinct events. I believe the person who wrote the study Judy posted touched on this.

Pre Wrath bases it's belief on this verse:

1 thess 5:9
9For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,

This wrath we believe is none other than the Wrath of God, which we determine to be the Day of the Lord, as laid out in the OT

So, yes, I believe the ekklesia is subject to Tribulation (persecution) but not suject to Wrath.

See the Christian Forum link I posted in my last post.

This form of exegesis of scripture is alien to you because you have been taught by a certain mindset of teachers who read Scripture, but teach what they think it means. I believe they are in err for teaching this way. They just can't see the ekklesia suffering Tribulation, when all along, we've been subjected to it gor hundreds of years, from Jesus on up to the present.

With all due respect, you should really look into the history of what is being taught by many evangelical teachers. It's not pretty and was originally an attempt to exclude the RCC from End Times events.

Peace,
Vic

 

[golfjack]

reply

You did the same thing to me Judy. I won't allow anyone to bully me.



May God bless, golfjack