The Catholic Church has helped save the most souls....

[Cure of Ars]

Fiat, Isaiah 22:15-25 is speaking about Christ.

Isaiah is talking about a steward office under the king in the dynasty of David. Hezekiah was king and he was replacing Shebna with Eliakim. The office of the keys was like the Prime Minister it was an office second in charge only to the king. Now how can this passage be talking about Christ if Jesus is the king or do you believe that Jesus is not king and he is second in charge the “prime minister" under another King?

And Matthew 16:18-19 speaks about the keys which Christ, Him on who's shoulders God has placed the keys, gives to Peter. These keys were concerning the kingdom of the heavens, which has to do with the church. And Peter used these keys on the day of Pentecost to allow the Jews to enter into the church, and on the day at the house of Cornelius to allow the gentiles to enter the church. So now, both Jew and Gentile have access to the Kingdom of the heavens, which is the church.

The keys are a symbol of authority with an office. The person with the keys has the final say. The other apostles were given an office and authority to bind and loose but they were never given the keys of the kingdom.

fiat wrote:
........ Since we continue to fall, daily repentance and conversion is part of our Christian life...God's glory is manifest in our weakness. However, the Church has already been made clean by Him. As we read in Ephesians, "...Christ love the Church and sacrificed himself for her to make her holy. He made her clean by washing her in water with a form of words, so that when he took her to himself she would be glorious, with no speck or wrinkle or anything like that, but holy and faultless.


Make up your mind, which is it?

You say you are a part of the church and that you still sin, and then you say that the church is sinless,...... what gives?

The Church is sinless because Christ’s body is sinless. Sin damages or even breaks communion with the body of Christ, the Church. My heart is not totally converted to Christ and because of this I am not perfectly united to the Church, Christ’s body. I can say that I am a sinner but still be apart of the Church because I have his grace (his life within me) but God has not totally completed what he has started. I am a member of the Church militant and I still wage the battle. I hope to make it to be a part of the Church triumphant. May God complete this grace within me.

Fiat, the church is Christ, and only Christ. In this sense it is sinless and perfect. But Christ desires a corporate body from among men, and therefore seeing that only He is the perfect element that this body must be made of, He needs to become us and us become Him. And this is what is being carried out by the Spirit in all those who believe

I think we agree on this point.

The church in its perfection is just Christ, not some man-made institution.

The Catholic Church is not man made, it’s Christ made. It is just not completed yet.

And even more, this perfect church is in every believer, for Christ comes to live in everyone who believes.

The body of Christ is not just a spiritual reality; it is also physical because Christ does not have a spiritual body, he was a physical body. He has a physical body so his Church must also be physical. Jesus in Matt 18:15-18 tells us to take disagreements to the Church. How can we go to the Church to resolve arguments if it is not physical? How do you find it and by what means does a decision become made? What “church†has final say? Could it be the physical Church that Christ established?

And the manifestation of this perfect church, Christ in His believing body, is just Christ lived out of His believing body, and not some man-made religious institution.

If the Catholic Church, with all the sinners that reside in its bosom, were man made then it would not have lasted this long. The Catholic Church has been given Christ’s grace through the sacraments. Because Christ has given the Catholic Church this grace it is the one holy catholic apostolic Church. Now granted, I do not now know where the Church is not but I sure know where it resides. In a spiritual sense all Christian are a part of the Catholic Church.

 

[cj]

Isaiah is talking about a steward office under the king in the dynasty of David. Hezekiah was king and he was replacing Shebna with Eliakim. The office of the keys was like the Prime Minister it was an office second in charge only to the king. Now how can this passage be talking about Christ if Jesus is the king or do you believe that Jesus is not king and he is second in charge the “prime minister" under another King?

Its wonderful that you asked. Lets take a look an find the answer.

Scripture tells us that Jesus, though one of the Three in the Godhead, is not the source of all things, but that the Father is. This is the Father/Son relationship.

John  15 : 1

"I am the true vine, and My Father is the husbandman."

The Greek word for "husbandman" means cultivator of the soil, land-worker, farmer (2 Tim. 2:6; James 5:7; Matt. 21:33).

The Father as the husbandman is the source, the author, the planner, the planter, the life, the substance, the soil, the water, the air, the sunshine, and everything to the vine. The Son as the vine is the center of God's economy and the embodiment of all the riches of the Father. The Father, by cultivating the Son, works Himself with all His riches into the vine, and eventually the vine expresses the Father in a corporate way through its branches. This is the Father's economy in the universe.

But this is not to say that the Father and the Son are not One, for they are, and this is the mystery of the triune nature of God.

Now that we have seen that scripture tells us that in their relationship, the Father can "give" something to the Son, we can now use this light to further understand the verses in question from Isaiah.

Isaiah 22:22,

"And I will set the key of the house of David upon his shoulder - When he opens, no one will shut; When he shuts, no one will open."

Revelation 3:7,

"And to the messenger of the church in Philadelphia write: These things says the Holy One, the true One,....... the One who has the key of David, the One who opens and no one will shut, and shuts and no one opens:"


And what does it mean to be one who "has the key", or has had the key to the house of David "set" upon his shoulder?

What does it mean to be given this "key", and what does "set upon his shoulder" mean?

The following verses from Isaiah pretty much tells us,...

Isaiah 9:6-7,

"For a child is born to us, A son is given to us; And the government Is upon His shoulder; And His name will be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Eternal Father, Prince of Peace.

To the increase of His government And to His peace there is no end, the throne of David And over His kingdom, To establish it And to uphold it In justice and righteousness From now to eternity. The zeal of Jehovah of hosts Will accomplish this."

Properly understood, regarding the typology of Christ in Isaiah 22:15-25, we can know that Jehovah will make Christ (typified by Jehovah's servant Eliakim) a Father to the inhabitants of Jerusalem and the house of Judah and will set the key of the house of David upon His shoulder (22:20-25). When He opens, no one will shut; when He shuts, no one will open (v. 22). And Jehovah will drive Him as a peg into a sure place, and He will become a throne of glory for His Father's house. They will hang upon Him all the glory of His Father's house, the offspring and the issue, all the smallest vessels, from the bowls to the jars.

For the sake of keeping things short, I'll respond to the rest of your post in another below.

In love,
cj

 

[cj]

The keys are a symbol of authority with an office. The person with the keys has the final say. The other apostles were given an office and authority to bind and loose but they were never given the keys of the kingdom.

They needed no keys,...... as the way to the kingdom of the heavens was now open, never again to be closed.

Or maybe you believe that a man can overide God's will that any (Jew or Gentile) who would believe and confess will be saved?

Can Peter go and take back what was done on the day of Pentecost? Can Peter go and take back what was done on the day at the house of Cornelius?

Of course not. Peter was given keys for those two specific purposes, human history testifies to this.

In later scriptures (Revelation) we see where our Lord refers to the key being with Him, so just how many keys do you think are there?

No other scriptures speak about Peter having any keys. Yet you want us to believe that the giving of the keys to Peter is for the period between the Lord's ascension and His return, but nothing in scripture points to this being true.

What for, what more is there to open or close regarding the kingdom of the heavens?

Now, what remains is the authority to bind and to loose, which all the apostles had (an belivers on a whole possess as the body).

So what good are these "keys" to Peter? This is the silliness of Rome, declaring that the Pope has the keys to the kingdom.

Wopptidoo..... hooray for the Pope. We can all tell him Bravo as we walk past him through the open door to the kingdom of heaven, a door that he can never shut because God's righteousness will not allow him to.

Yet, let me say that there will come a day that the door will be shut, that there will no longer be admitance in the sense that is now available to those who believe. But on this day it is the Bridegroom Himself who will lock the door, and not Peter.

As for your though regarding the keys being symbolic of authority with an office, this is man's vanity at work, as Christ alone is the Authority, and He alone holds the one office, for He alone is the Head.

The truth that is revealed in the scriptures shows us that after Acts chapter 15 Peter is never again mentioned in this book of the acts of the apostles. In fact, in chapter 15 we can see that Peter no longer had the lead elder position in the church in Jerusalem, but had been replaced by James.

Additionally, in the chapters that precede chapter 15, we can see that God's move among the Gentiles had nothing to do with the church in Jerusalem, but was a seperate move by God. It is clear from the early chapters of the book of Acts that Peter's ministry was to the Jews, and it is clear that Paul was God's chosen and annointed apostle to the Gentiles.

Furthermore, God also entrusted His "completing" ministry to Paul and not to Peter. It is Paul who scripture declares as being the person God chose to bring in His full gospel ministry, and thus it is Paul's ministry, and not Peter's, from which we can receive the light to go on with God and be built up as the church.

Peter in fact tells us this in his 2nd epistle to the church,...

2 Peter 3:14-18,

"Therefore, beloved, since you expect these things, be diligent to be found by Him in peace without spot and without blemish; And count the long-suffering of our Lord to be salvation,..... even as also our beloved brother Paul, according to the wisdom given to him, wrote to you, as also in all his letters, speaking in them concerning these things,..... in which some things are hard to understand, which the unlearned and unstable twist, as also the rest of the Scriptures, to their own destruction.

You therefore, beloved, since you know these things beforehand, be on your guard lest being carried away by the error of the lawless, you fall from your own steadfastness. But grow in the grace and knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. To Him be the glory both now and unto the day of eternity. Amen."

Peter was fully aware of just which apostle had been given God's completing ministry. And Peter knew it was not him, it was Paul.


Concerning the rest of your post.....

The Catholic Church is not man made, it’s Christ made. It is just not completed yet.

There is no such thing as the "Catholic" Church.

There is but one Church, and it is the corporate body of the one Christ.

The term "Catholic" means nothing, it has no value and only serves to present a false altar at which men can worship.

Why call the Church of God anything other than the Church of God?

Additionally, it is not simply the "Catholic" Church, but the "ROMAN Catholic" Church, which further serves to emphasize its deception and divisiveness in seperating men from God.

There is nothing "ROMAN" about Christ,.... and Christ is the Church.

Neither, is there anything "Eastern Orthodox" about Him who is Reality.

If the Catholic Church, with all the sinners that reside in its bosom, were man made then it would not have lasted this long.

Utter foolishness,....... the world and all of its expressed wickedness is still here. And the Roman and Eastern apostate institutions express the impure mixture of this world with the things of God, just as is revealed in the OT concerning Israel and its fallen ways.

The Catholic Church has been given Christ’s grace through the sacraments.

Utter foolishness. Christ Himself is our grace,.... and every believer has received Christ in His fulness.

Away with the lie of the "sacrements"...... wickedness perpetuated on the weaker members of the body by those who serve Satan.

Because Christ has given the Catholic Church this grace it is the one holy catholic apostolic Church.

Utter foolishness. Christ is grace, and all believers have Christ.

Away with this lie that only seeks to uplift certain men that they may lord over others to satisfy their vain ambitions.

Now granted, I do not now know where the Church is not but I sure know where it resides. In a spiritual sense all Christian are a part of the Catholic Church.

Utter foolishness. You speak in blindness the corruption you lust after.

Come down off of your Roman pedestal and give yourself to serving the living God, and not the false gods of your apostate institution.


In love,
cj

 

[Cure of Ars]

Scripture tells us that Jesus, though one of the Three in the Godhead, is not the source of all things, but that the Father is. This is the Father/Son relationship.

John 15 : 1 "I am the true vine, and My Father is the husbandman."

The Greek word for "husbandman" means cultivator of the soil, land-worker, farmer (2 Tim. 2:6; James 5:7; Matt. 21:33).

You are mixing metaphors. Just because in the Trinity there is a relationship of father and son or that in some metaphors it speaks of the Father giving something to Jesus does not mean that this applies to the position of king in Isaiah 22:22. Nowhere in the context of Isaiah does it suggest that the king is the Father and not the Son. In Old Testament typology the Messiah of the throne of David is fulfilled in Jesus Christ, not God the Father. The metaphor that you site does not apply to Isaiah because ultimately Jesus is not the steward to the kingdom of God. He is the KING and equal to God the Father (Phil 2:5-8). The only rational reason that I can see of demoting Jesus in this metaphor and placing God the Father in the position of king and Jesus as the royal steward is because you do not like the implications when applied to Matt 16:19. You completely passed over this passage in your explanation although it speaks of a Messiah (king), keys of the kingdom, and binding a loosing. Jesus is paraphrasing Isaiah 22 in Matt 16 and in this context it is not reasonable to think that the Father is the king. Peter pronounced by the Holy Spirit in Matt 16:16 that Jesus is the king. This is the proper context of understanding the meaning. Not by forcing it into some unrelated metaphor or relationship withing the Trinity.

In Revelation 3:7, it is speaking about Jesus having the keys of the kingdom at the end of time. In the office of royal steward in Isaiah 22 the keys of the kingdom does not belong to the holder of the office but the King. He is just the steward of the keys until Jesus returns. The one who owns the keys is Jesus the king. This passage is talking about when Jesus returns he will have the keys again (Rev 3:11). But until then, the royal steward, the successors the office of Peter, has the authority of the keys to bind and loose.

 

[Soma-Sight]

cj,

Do you believe you would have your KJV Bile without the RCC preserving the scriptures in libraries and such?

I am curious what denomination you speak from?

Thx.....

 

[Cure of Ars]

They needed no keys,...... as the way to the kingdom of the heavens was now open, never again to be closed.

Scripture does not just say loose but also “bindâ€Â. And it does not say specifically to Jews and gentiles but “whateverâ€Â. “Whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven; and whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven." (Matt 16:19) I guess you would have us cross out the word “bind†and “whateverâ€Â.

Or maybe you believe that a man can overide God's will that any (Jew or Gentile) who would believe and confess will be saved?

Where does it say in scripture that the binding and loosing only refers to Jews and Gentiles? Binding and loosing was a rabbinic term meaning governance.

No other scriptures speak about Peter having any keys. Yet you want us to believe that the giving of the keys to Peter is for the period between the Lord's ascension and His return, but nothing in scripture points to this being true.

I just love arguments from silence. Why would you have us restrict the ownership of the office or the keys to only between the Lord's ascension and His return? What Jesus has set in place, in regards to the Church, which is placed on the rock, will not change until Jesus returns. Jesus established offices that even had successors even within the Biblical times (see Acts 1:20).

What for, what more is there to open or close regarding the kingdom of the heavens?

There is a lot of stuff to “bind†and “loose†when having to fulfill what Jesus asks us to do in Matt 18:15-18. Trying to keep the Church in one piece with all the disagreements between Christians it takes a lot of binding and loosing and when Christians do not listen to Jesus or the authorities that he established there is no real hope for unity, hence Protestant chaos.

Wopptidoo..... hooray for the Pope. We can all tell him Bravo as we walk past him through the open door to the kingdom of heaven, a door that he can never shut because God's righteousness will not allow him to.

No need to be bitter about it.

As for your though regarding the keys being symbolic of authority with an office, this is man's vanity at work, as Christ alone is the Authority, and He alone holds the one office, for He alone is the Head.

Yes Jesus is the head but the Bibles also says there is offices within God’s kingdom.

It is you who have stood by me in my trials; and I confer a kingdom on you, just as my Father has conferred one on me, that you may eat and drink at my table in my kingdom; and you will sit on thrones judging the twelve tribes of Israel. "Simon, Simon, behold Satan has demanded to sift all of you like wheat, but I have prayed that your own faith may not fail; and once you have turned back, you must strengthen your brothers." (Luke 22:28-32)

The truth that is revealed in the scriptures shows us that after Acts chapter 15 Peter is never again mentioned in this book of the acts of the apostles. In fact, in chapter 15 we can see that Peter no longer had the lead elder position in the church in Jerusalem, but had been replaced by James.

Another argument from silence. Peter went to Rome to make this the center of Christianity. This is why the pope is the Bishop of Rome.


I did not find much edifying with the rest of your remarks. So I will not respond. I am not in the mood to give a rational response to what basically amounts to name calling. I did notice though that you did not respond to my question on Matt 18.

 

[cj]

I did not find much edifying with the rest of your remarks.

You're not seeking edification, you are seeking to rule. Thus the eyes of your heart can see nothing other than that which you believe will help you accomplish your ambition.

It is not unexpected that you would say what you did above. Darkness lusts only after more darkness.

So I will not respond.

This is a blessing for all who read these forums.

Understand this, I don't really write with a hope for response. I'm not debating with you or anyone else here. The things you speak contain no truth, therefore what profit can there be in your words.

I am not in the mood to give a rational response to what basically amounts to name calling.

There ya go, falling back on the age-old excuse of one who is confronted by truth.

Seen it before, and know I'; be confronted with it again.

Means nothing.

I did notice though that you did not respond to my question on Matt 18.

In time, and as the Spirit leads.

There is no rush with the things of God.


In love,
cj

 

[cj]

cj,

Do you believe you would have your KJV Bile without the RCC preserving the scriptures in libraries and such?

And God, where does His "preserving" power fit into your equation?

Or maybe you simply want me to answer you without considering that He alone in who preserves all things.

Soma, your question lacks depth, it is superficial, asked from a point of view that can see nothing of the truth.

And this is the truth,... just as God allowed the Babylonian kingdom to bring Israel into captivity, for its own salvation's sake, so too has God allowed the apostate institutions to be raised up for the believers sake.

But there is nothing positive about this. The principle is the same as seen in God's leaving the decaying flesh of the old Soma, with the new saved Soma.

The truth be told, the time will come where all who believe will look upon the apostate institutions and cring at the thought that it ever existed. This sense of disgust will be used by God to drive believers into the arms of the Son.

am curious what denomination you speak from?

cj.

I am what I am by the mercy and grace of God.

Thx.....

You're welcome.


In love,
cj

 

[cj]

You are mixing metaphors. Just because in the Trinity there is a relationship of father and son or that in some metaphors it speaks of the Father giving something to Jesus does not mean that this applies to the position of king in Isaiah 22:22. Nowhere in the context of Isaiah does it suggest that the king is the Father and not the Son.

"Nowhere in the context of Isaiah does it suggest that the king is the Father and not the Son."


This is wonderful insight, but seemingly useless in your mind.


Ever notice the phrase "Son of David"? Yet we know that Christ was, long before David ever was.

Who does David typify? And yet who does Solomon, David's son, typify?

Christ.

So here we have both the father, David, and the son, Solomon, both typifying Christ.

And even more,..... Abraham, his son Issac, and his son Jacob, who do they all typify?

Again, Christ.

Furthermore, scripture declares the Father is the Son and the Son is the Father in the oneness of the Godhead.

Both the "giver" of the key and the "recipient" of the key are One and the Same.

Unfortunately, believing the lie that you do, it is almost impossible for you to have any understanding of the oneness of God. And your comment above shows us this.


But even more, in a following post lets take a closer look at these verses from Isaiah, it will be a useful study.

In Old Testament typology the Messiah of the throne of David is fulfilled in Jesus Christ, not God the Father.

It is funny that you should say this, because we are discussing the matter of the "keys" of the kingdom of the heavens and not the throne of David.

So lets follow along the lines of this "kingdom of the heavens" though shall we....

The keys being those to the kingdom of the heavens (the Church), must mean that the position of Stewardship is one of stewardship of this heavenly kingdom (the stewardship of the Church). Additionally, the throne must be the throne of He who is over the Kingdom of the heavens (the Church).

So lets take a look at Who all scripture declares is the true Steward of this kingdom, and then, take a look at Who all scripture declares is the one true King of this kingdom.

By doing this, we will be able to get a clear view of what is found in these verses of Isaiah.

Lets start with these words from John 14:2,.....

It is Christ Jesus who declares that, "In My Father's..... house..... are many abodes; if it were not so, I would have told you; for I go to prepare a place for you."

Regarding the word "house", according to the interpretation in John 2:16 and 21, "My Father's house" refers to the temple, the body of Christ, as God's dwelling place.

At first the body of Christ was only His individual body. But through Christ's death and resurrection, the body of Christ has increased to be His corporate Body, which is the church, including all His believers, who have been regenerated through His resurrection (1 Pet. 1:3). In Christ's resurrection the church is the Body of Christ, which is the house of God (1 Tim. 3:15; 1 Pet. 2:5; Heb. 3:6), God's habitation (Eph. 2:21-22), God's temple (1 Cor. 3:16-17).

Truth be told Cure, this verse from John, alone rejects your presented position. For if the Son declares that the "house" belongs to His Father, then what can we believe the "office" of the Son to be?

The "office of Stewardship" maybe? Let's allow scripture to answer.....

Micah 5:2,
“(But you, O Bethlehem Ephrathah, So little to be among the thousands of Judah, From you there will come forth to Me He who is to be Ruler in Israel; And His goings forth are from ancient times, From the days of eternity.)

And in the NT, the above is presented as….

Matthew 2:6
“And you, Bethlehem, land of Judah, by no means are you the least among the princes of Judah; out of you shall come forth a Ruler, One who will shepherd My people Israel.''

So here we can understand that the “Ruler†(King), came forth from one who refers to Himself as “Meâ€Â, who we can know from scripture is Jehovah, and who, according to the NT representation of the OT scripture, will be the “shepherd†of Jehovah’s people.

And scripture tells us that Jehovah’s people are the Church.

So here we can know that the King is also the Shepherd,… and what is a “shepherd� A shepherd is simply a steward, a keeper of the sheep, the one who can open the gate and lock the gate.

Now knowing that Christ in his “office†as the Shepherd of Jehovah’s people (the Church), Christ is not only the Ruler/King but also the Shepherd/Steward, lets see where scripture declares that this Ruler/King, Shepherd/Steward of the Church of Jehovah, has never given up this “office†to a another, and in truth, as the ruling Shepherd/Steward, has simply given authority to whomever He desires, as scripture tells us.


But we’ll do this in a following post as I don’t want to allow this one to become long.


In love,
cj

PS – Based on the truth in the scriptures, I found this thought of yours quite sadâ₦.

“…… because ultimately Jesus is not the steward to the kingdom of God. He is the KING and equal to God the Father (Phil 2:5-8.â€Â

 

[John the Baptist]

[quote="Soma-Sight":df644]The Catholic and OC Churches were pretty much the exclusive Christian churches up to 1500 AD. They are the foundation of Christianity today and if you think about it probably have been directly responsible for spreading the message of Jesus Christ to more people than any other denomination in history!

And for all you protestants out there..... Just remember who solidified the books in your Bible!

Then why don't you join them and truly learn some Christian principles?[/quote:df644]

****
John here: :wink: Good post! He sounds like an Adventist in good standing with the professed 3 Angels Messages of Revelation 14:6-10?
What/ever?? :

 

[John the Baptist]

Why the Virgin Shaking?

John here: The Great Falling Away is caused by Adventist joining hands with Rome!
Remember ALL the world 'wondered after the beast'! See Revelation 13:3-8 Soma.
Remember Isaiah 65:15 finds that just before the Lord cones again (Isaiah 65:17) He tells us the Name of Adventism becoming a curse to the Remnant! :

Anyway: Here is the devils 'fold' from start to finish!!

The TRUE ANTICHRIST CULT must have complete authority!! Notice his DOCUMENTED work. "All dogmatic decrees of [the Pope], made with or without his general council, ARE INFALLIBLE ... Once made, no pope or council can reverse them ... This IS THE CATHOLIC PRINCIPLE, that the CHURCH CANNOT ERR IN FAITH." --The Catholic World, pgs. 422-423. (THE RED FLAG! ANTICHRIST!!)

OK: That is the first [TOP] priority. 's'atan has himself in charge of a number one human man! See Genesis 4:7's start & Revelation 3:9's ending. This is & ever was satin's antichrist denomination. (and who took over when Christ left Israel of old? See Matthew 23:38 when they BECAME DESOLATE OF CHRIST)

Number two: A CULT ANTICHRIST must have a 'SECOND' book held in high esteem that is opposite to the Bible! In this time frame, It IS THE 'CATECHISM! It even openly changes the Commandments of God! [ANTICHRIST!] See 1 John 2:4 & Isaiah 8:20.

Number three: Surely it MUST HAVE A LARGE BROADWAY WORLDWIDE CULT MEMBERSHIP! See Matt. 7 & Revelation 17:5!! To have DAUGHTERS, this denomination was here FIRST, huh? Again, the TRUE LEADER of even the Pope, was seen working before the flood in Cain! (Genesis 4:7) Notice whose his 'DESIRE' now was!
A denomination has always been found by satan to 'FORM-or have them become a FOLD' that would do this [FIRST CULT LEADER'S WORK]. See Revelation 2:5. (well, who would now take over!?)

Cain killed his brother. Cain was still a professor of worship! He brought an ANTICHRIST SACRIFICE! As does Rome in having Sun. for God's eternal Sabbath Day Covenant! (see Hebrews 13:20) Rome, also is, and was, a MURDERER (from the beginning) as is DOCUMENTED in Fox Book of Martyr's. It states that is MIGHT EVEN BE A LOW estiment, OF UPWARD TO AN HUNDRED MILLION KILLED BY ROME, OF CHRISTIAN MARTYRS!!

Take note: This is satan's church! Look around you today! These LEADERS ARE [OPEN PARTAKERS] of ALL OF THIS EVIL! See Revelation 18:4! And in a quote that I posted some time back, about Pope John Paul 11 suggesting that voodoo believers would not betray their traditional faith by 'converting to Christianity'. ('From the Los Angeles Times' 2/5/93) CHRISTIANS?? Hardly can a person be [HONEST] calling an CULT ANTICHRIST denomination [CHRISTIAN! Soma] And the Lord's CALL is for the [IGNORANT BABES IN CHRIST THAT HE HAS THERE, TO LEAVE]. Again SEE Revelation 18:4 & John 5:16!!

If these are Christian, Soma, why leave, as Christ says?

And NOW: We see satan still doing his evil work in suggesting that there is another antichrist?? Wow! what is new, God say's NOTHING!! See Ecclesiastes 1:9-10 & Ecclesiastes 3:15. Yet, these ones ARE THE CULT LEADERS 'little' daughter's that are DOING the work of mommy. What is next?? Soon ex/prostants will do the dirty work of having Caesar do what they can not do OPENLY. Kill their brothers! Christian ones, huh, Soma? Yes, these all surely are some Christians. :o

Yet: ALL are missing the truth here! The Adventist denomination has gone the way of Israel of old before Christ comes the second time!! See Revelation 12:17!! They TOO have called the Great Whore & her Daughters Christian denominations! And they, as were Israel of old, to be JUDGED FIRST! See 1 Peter 4:17. ALL other's testing will be that of 666 & that is also just around the corner! And we see all of these Adventist Soma ones, telling us openly, how great the Catholic fold is??

---John
_________________
Phil. 4:13 & 2 Cor. 12:9 for our provisions on earth, thank you Master!

 

[Cure of Ars]

Re: Why the Virgin Shaking?

Number two: A CULT ANTICHRIST must have a 'SECOND' book held in high esteem that is opposite to the Bible! In this time frame, It IS THE 'CATECHISM! It even openly changes the Commandments of God! [ANTICHRIST!] See 1 John 2:4 & Isaiah 8:20.

Don’t you just love anti-Catholic propaganda. The Adventists must be a cult because they use Ellen White's writtings along with Scripture.

 

[John the Baptist]

Re: Why the Virgin Shaking?

[quote="John the Baptist":2729c]Number two: A CULT ANTICHRIST must have a 'SECOND' book held in high esteem that is opposite to the Bible! In this time frame, It IS THE 'CATECHISM! It even openly changes the Commandments of God! [ANTICHRIST!] See 1 John 2:4 & Isaiah 8:20.

Don’t you just love anti-Catholic propaganda. The Adventists must be a cult because they use Ellen White's writtings along with Scripture.[/quote:2729c]
*********

John here: Naw, you & the trademarked Adventists are in the spiritual bed together. You are the Revelation 17:1-5 ones & Adventists are your Revelation 3:9 bed partners.

And propaganda you say?? You document enough of this with out any outside help from others: Yet, the Master's Word of Isaiah 59:1-2 tells it all!!

Analysis of the estimates of others: According to Amanda Ripley of Time Magazine, estimates range from 15% to 50%. 3
According to Bill Blakemore of ABC News, "...nobody knows what percentage of the American priesthood is gay; estimates range from less than 10% to more than 30%." 4

Personal estimates: Richard Sipe, a psychotherapist and former priest, has studied celibacy, chastity, and sexuality in the priesthood for four decades. He has authored three books on the topic. He once estimated that 30% of the priesthood is homosexually oriented. 5 Elsewhere, he is quoted as estimating that between 25% and 45% of American priests are homosexual in orientation. 6 He told the Boston Globe: "If they were to eliminate all those who were homosexually oriented, the number would be so staggering that it would be like an atomic bomb; it would do the same damage to the church's operation...It would mean the resignation of at least a third of the bishops of the world. And it's very much against the tradition of the church; many saints had a gay orientation, and many popes had gay orientations. Discriminating against orientation is not going to solve the problem."
Sister Maryanne Walsh, spokesperson for the National Conference of Catholic Bishops, said that it would it be difficult to find evidence to support these Sipe's estimates of the percentage of gay men in the priesthood. She feels that it is also irrelevant. She said: "There’s no real purpose in saying whether someone is homosexual or heterosexual. The issue is whether they can make a commitment [to chastity]." 6
Bishop Jerome Listecki is an auxiliary bishop in Chicago. He estimates that "perhaps more than 10%" of priests have a homosexual orientation." (Emphasis ours). 5
Father Donald Cozzens, an author, psychologist, and Catholic seminary president says that there is such a high percentage of gay priests in the church that he is concerned that “the priesthood is or is becoming a gay profession.†5 In his book, "The Changing Face of the Priesthood," -- published in the year 2000 -- he estimates that 50% of Roman Catholic priests have a homosexual orientation.
A NBC report on chastity and the clergy found that "anywhere from 23 percent to 58 percent" of the Catholic clergy have a homosexual orientation. 7
Author and sociologist James G. Wolfe estimated that 48.5% of priests were gay. 8

Actual surveys: In the Fall of 1999, the Kansas City Star sent a questionnaire to 3,000 priests in the U.S. 73% did not reply. The low response rate could be anticipated. One would expect homosexuals and bisexuals to be reluctant to respond to the questionnaire since it deals with such a sensitive issue, and originated from a newspaper. Homosexual and bisexual priests would probably be less likely to reply to the survey. Among the 801 priests who did reply: 75% said they had a heterosexual orientation;
15% homosexual;
5% bisexual. 9

During 1990, Rev. Thomas Crangle, a Franciscan priest in Passaic, N.J., mailed a survey to 500 randomly selected priests. Of the 398 responses, about 45% said that they were gay. 10


Conclusion: If we assume that all of the estimates are of equal validity, then about 33% of priests have a homosexual orientation -- about one in three.

 

[Cure of Ars]

Blessed are you when they insult you and persecute you and utter every kind of evil against you (falsely) because of me. Rejoice and be glad, for your reward will be great in heaven. Thus they persecuted the prophets who were before you. (Matt 5:11-12)

:wink:

 

[Orthodox Christian]

So let me see if I have followed what John the Baptist is declaring here:

Homosexuals who chose celibate lives as priests are proof of the fallenness of Catholicism.

Oh, and apparently the Adventists are afflicted also, for they are "in bed" with Rome.

 

[fiat]

So here we can know that the King is also the Shepherd,… and what is a “shepherd� A shepherd is simply a steward, a keeper of the sheep, the one who can open the gate and lock the gate.

Now knowing that Christ in his “office†as the Shepherd of Jehovah’s people (the Church), Christ is not only the Ruler/King but also the Shepherd/Steward, lets see where scripture declares that this Ruler/King, Shepherd/Steward of the Church of Jehovah, has never given up this “office†to a another, and in truth, as the ruling Shepherd/Steward, has simply given authority to whomever He desires, as scripture tells us.

Scripture shows us that Christ did indeed give this role of "shepherd" to one of His Apostles.

John 21:

15 (8 9 10) When they had finished breakfast, Jesus said to Simon Peter, "Simon, son of John, do you love me more than these?" He said to him, "Yes, Lord, you know that I love you." He said to him, "Feed my lambs."
16 He then said to him a second time, "Simon, son of John, do you love me?" He said to him, "Yes, Lord, you know that I love you." He said to him, "Tend my sheep."
17 He said to him the third time, "Simon, son of John, do you love me?" Peter was distressed that he had said to him a third time, "Do you love me?" and he said to him, "Lord, you know everything; you know that I love you." (Jesus) said to him, "Feed my sheep.

In verse 16, Jesus tells Peter to feed His sheep. In Greek, the word "feed' is different from that used in verse 15. In this verse the word "feed' means "to shepherd," "to tend," "to rule. "

Greek Word: Poimaivnw
Transliterated Word: poimaino

Definition
to feed, to tend a flock, keep sheep
to rule, govern
of rulers
to furnish pasture for food
to nourish
to cherish one's body, to serve the body
to supply the requisites for the soul's need

Greek lexicon based on Thayer's and Smith's Bible Dictionary
http://www.biblestudytools.net/Lexicons ... ersion=kjv

Strong's Dictionary

Poimaino 4165

poimainw
poimaino
poy-mah'-ee-no

from poimhn - poimen 4166; to tend as a shepherd of (figuratively, superviser):--feed (cattle), rule.

examples

poimainein
Acts 20:28, Rev 12:5

poimainei
1 Cor 9:7

poimaine
John 21:16

poimainonta
Luke 17:7

poimainonteV
Jude 1:12

poimanate
1 Pe 5:2

poimanei
Matt 2:6, Rev 2:27, Rev 7:17, Rev 19:15

 

[fiat]

^ info compliments of someone at phatmass.com

 

[John the Baptist]

So let me see if I have followed what John the Baptist is declaring here:

Homosexuals who chose celibate lives as priests are proof of the fallenness of Catholicism.

Oh, and apparently the Adventists are afflicted also, for they are "in bed" with Rome.

********

You guy's never amaze me! Another World news article tells us that among Catholic priests living in the United States in comparison with non Catholic males, priests are on the ratio of 1-4 more infected with the Aids Virus.
And they did not get this way eating jelly beans! Catholicism is a 'sick' Revelation 17:5 ABOMINATION OF THE EARTH : (and no, my Douay Version is not in caps)

It matters not what the open unrepentant sin is! There is NO way to be supporting any known sin by being in yoked membership or robing God by supporting it with His tithes & Offerings. See Revelation 18:4 which is a eternal life & death matter. Joshua 7:12's last part of the verse is not hard to understand. "NEITHER WILL I BE WITH YOU , EXCEPT YE DESTROY THE ACCURSED FROM AMONG YOU".

And Adventists?? Surely, in 1990 when they held their World General Conference session where Christ was supposed to be presence, it would be ludicrous to suppose that Christ was there, hand in hand with the Catholic priest addressing their World assembly! And they have been going downhill ever since!

Surely this was their Abomination of Desolation of Matthew 23:38. Notice: Just standing there, no fight, but invited! Matthew 24:15

 

[Orthodox Christian]

[quote="Orthodox Christian":a3ebb]So let me see if I have followed what John the Baptist is declaring here:

Homosexuals who chose celibate lives as priests are proof of the fallenness of Catholicism.

Oh, and apparently the Adventists are afflicted also, for they are "in bed" with Rome.

********

You guy's never amaze me! Another World news article tells us that among Catholic priests living in the United States in comparison with non Catholic males, priests are on the ratio of 1-4 more infected with the Aids Virus.
And they did not get this way eating jelly beans! Catholicism is a 'sick' Revelation 17:5 ABOMINATION OF THE EARTH : (and no, my Douay Version is not in caps)[/quote:a3ebb]Set down the megaphone for a minute, and see if you can answer a question without shouting:
Do you agree with this statement?

Sister Maryanne Walsh, spokesperson for the National Conference of Catholic Bishops, said that it would it be difficult to find evidence to support these Sipe's estimates of the percentage of gay men in the priesthood. She feels that it is also irrelevant. She said: There’s no real purpose in saying whether someone is homosexual or heterosexual. The issue is whether they can make a commitment to chastity

Do you agree with that underlined statement, or do you think that the temptations alone mark a man as immoral. Hmm?

It matters not what the open unrepentant sin is! There is NO way to be supporting any known sin by being in yoked membership or robing God by supporting it with His tithes & Offerings. See Revelation 18:4 which is a eternal life & death matter. Joshua 7:12's last part of the verse is not hard to understand. "NEITHER WILL I BE WITH YOU , EXCEPT YE DESTROY THE ACCURSED FROM AMONG YOU".

So you are advocating the stoning/burning alive of homosexuals, then?

And Adventists?? Surely, in 1990 when they held their World General Conference session where Christ was supposed to be presence, it would be ludicrous to suppose that Christ was there, hand in hand with the Catholic priest addressing their World assembly! And they have been going downhill ever since!

Who could ever imagine God holding hands with one of those sinners, right John.

Surely this was their Abomination of Desolation of Matthew 23:38. Notice: Just standing there, no fight, but invited! Matthew 24:15

Imagine- a Catholic priest among the truly pure- and the ground did not open up.

 

[cj]

Scripture shows us that Christ did indeed give this role of "shepherd" to one of His Apostles.

Actually, scripture tells us that that we all have been given to the role of shepherding.


Lets see if you know how this is done FIAT........ why is it that every believer is able to be a shepherd, even as Christ?


I'll give you a hint, the answer lies in the new life we've all received, and all that this new life contains.


You have no idea how bound in darkness regarding the scriptures you are as a result of the folly apostate anti-Christ institution you hold to.


In love,
cj