The catholics have divinized Mary

[Gary]

How sad...

So what does the Roman Catholic Church teach?....

.... according to them, “Mary, the Mother of God, is entitled to the Cult of Hyperdulia,†meaning that Mary may be venerated and honoured. How much? Higher level, higher than another creature, angels, or saints!

So what about John?

Care to explain that Scripture?

:wink:

 

[thessalonian]

Did John die before or after the kingdom was established? How about Mary, before or after? Hmmm. Let me see. You tell me what level of honor and praise is too much for the Mother of God? That is what Elizabeth calls her after all. "Mother of my LORD". Tell me how what level of calling her blessed do you support? Or was she just being a concieted Jewish when she said "all generations shall call me blessed"? Some on this board (including the thread starter even have a difficult time acknowledging her blessedness). Seems to me if she bore Jesus and raised him day to day and Jesus was God and her child who was the God-man Jesus was a blessing as all children are, she must have been infinitely blessed. Yet many protestant women I've run in to on these forums have a hard time saying that they are not as blessed as Mary in the bearing of their children and raising them. I know it's not about nursing at the breast. It's about fiat dude. "Let it be done unto me according to your word". " Oh gasp don't post words of Mary from scripture. Your making her God." :


So Gary lays the trap and derails the thread. I took the bait. Oh well. :-D
Blessings

 

[Gary]

LOL... so thess, do you know if Mary died before or after John?

Why did he not mention her? Remember, Mary lived with John. Was John unaware that she was "assumpted" into heaven? Where was John when that happened?

You might want to quote Paul on Mary. He had a lot to say about her.... why not quote his prayers to Mary? Or James' prayers to Mary. Oh... what about Peter's prayers to Mary? I am sure you can point to Jude's prayers to Mary!

:-D

 

[thessalonian]

LOL... so thess, do you know if Mary died before or after John?

John the baptist? Really?

Why did he not mention her? Remember, Mary lived with John. Was John unaware that she was "assumpted" into heaven? Where was John when that happened?

Oh, you are talking that John. Are you that ignorant of scripture that you don't know what I am talking about and so use my words as an attempt to expose some alleged ignoranc of a Catholic. Kinda hard to read between the lines of your post as to which John you were talking about. Why didn't he mention Peter's death? Why didn't he mention anything about the travels of Paul? Why didn't he mention anything about the authority of Pauls writings? I don't know. Surely he knew of Paul since Paul traveled to Ephesus. Why didn't he mention that Paul was in Ephesus? Good question. Do many more could be asked about what the Apostles were silent on. Why did some of them write nothing at all? Did he mention Mary's assumption in symbolic speach in revelations. I think so. In the end of Rev 11 through rev 12 if you know what the Ark of the Covenant is and how it parrellels Mary in scripture. Oh, go ahead and accuse me of plagurizing again. :-D It makes it so that you don't have to deal with the obvious.

You might want to quote Paul on Mary. He had a lot to say about her.... why not quote his prayers to Mary? Or James' prayers to Mary. Oh... what about Peter's prayers to Mary? I am sure you can point to Jude's prayers to Mary!

Ah, arguements from silence Gary. Your good at them.
:
: Blessings

:-D[/quote]

 

[LittleNipper]

Did John die before or after the kingdom was established? How about Mary, before or after? Hmmm. Let me see. You tell me what level of honor and praise is too much for the Mother of God? That is what Elizabeth calls her after all. "Mother of my LORD". Tell me how what level of calling her blessed do you support? Or was she just being a concieted Jewish when she said "all generations shall call me blessed"? Some on this board (including the thread starter even have a difficult time acknowledging her blessedness). Seems to me if she bore Jesus and raised him day to day and Jesus was God and her child who was the God-man Jesus was a blessing as all children are, she must have been infinitely blessed. Yet many protestant women I've run in to on these forums have a hard time saying that they are not as blessed as Mary in the bearing of their children and raising them. I know it's not about nursing at the breast. It's about fiat dude. "Let it be done unto me according to your word". " Oh gasp don't post words of Mary from scripture. Your making her God." :


So Gary lays the trap and derails the thread. I took the bait. Oh well. :-D
Blessings

Ah, but is it recorded that Elizabeth in the presents of her pregnant niece Mary, fell down and worshipped her? You will find no such verse anywhere in the New Testament. I've made a fuss over my son when he brings home a report card full of A's, but I do not worship him. Mary is obviously, the vessel through which the living GOD entered the world in human form and Mary certainly acted as the mother of JESUS. That doesn't mean that Mary is the origin of GOD or CHRIST for that matter. If she were here in person, she would have a lot to tell us, but for what seems to be very good reasons GOD didn't allow MARY to become the focus of scripture.

 

[thessalonian]

Mary is not the focus of scripture.
Mary is not the origin of Christ who is God in Catholic theology.
Mary is not to be worshipped by Catholics. Direct from the Popes.

More straw men.

Maybe you want to go back to the other thread and vote.

 

[Gary]

More lies....

Mary is not to be worshipped by Catholics. Direct from the Popes.

Direct from the pope:

On May 7 1977, Pope John Paul II dedicated his general audience to "the Virgin Mary" and urged all Christians to accept Mary as their mother. He noted the words spoken by Jesus on the cross to Mary and to John--"Woman, behold thy son!" and "Behold thy mother!" (John 19:26,27), and he claimed that in this statement "IT IS POSSIBLE TO UNDERSTAND THE AUTHENTIC MEANING OF MARIAN WORSHIP in the ecclesial community ... which furthermore is based on the will of Christ" (Vatican Information Service, May 7, 1997).

John Paul II underlined that "the history of Christian piety teaches that MARY IS THE PATH THAT LEADS TO CHRIST, and that filial devotion to her does not at all diminish intimacy with Jesus, but rather, it increases it and leads it to very high levels of perfection." He concluded by asking all Christians "to make room (for Mary) in their daily lives, ACKNOWLEDGING HER PROVIDENTIAL ROLE IN THE PATH OF SALVATION" (Ibid.).

Source: http://www.remnantofgod.org/mry-a6.htm

Wow!

... and thessalonian wants us to believe that Mary is not the focus of worship by Roman Catholics!

Blessings

:o :o

 

[thessalonian]

On May 7 1977, Pope John Paul II dedicated his general audience to "the Virgin Mary"

Perhaps you will do me the favor of giving me the real date of this audience so that I can authenticate your quote. You see JP II was not Pope in 1977. :-? It wouldn't be the first time you have twisted or taken out of context a quote or your authors have translated it to suit their needs. Oddly enough I do a web search for your marian worship quote and only find it on anti-catholic sites. I search the vatican site which has all of his audiences and it is not there.

 

[LittleNipper]

Mary is not the focus of scripture.
Mary is not the origin of Christ who is God in Catholic theology.
Mary is not to be worshipped by Catholics. Direct from the Popes.

More straw men.

Maybe you want to go back to the other thread and vote.

So when I watched "The Mass" presented on television one Sunday and this little TV group started to repeat over and over and over and over and over and over and over-------well, you get the true picture (you being Catholic and all), the vain repetition of Hail Mary full of grace...... (I do believe that one time they rambled through that passage 40 times) I finally turned them off. I have better things to do with my time. I enjoy Doctor James Kennedy. Now the Holy Spirit has given him the gift to present scripture and not beat it to death... So my point is, if Mary ain't worshipped, you guys certainly waste plenty of time not worshipping her. Rather you repeated John 3:16 over and over------but I imagine that that verse doesn't rank as high on your list of ramblings. Sorry, if I come across rather strong. But you seem blinded to the obvious.

 

[thessalonian]

So when I watched "The Mass" presented on television one Sunday and this little TV group started to repeat over and over and over and over and over and over and over-------well, you get the true picture (you being Catholic and all), the vain repetition of Hail Mary full of grace...... (I do believe that one time they rambled through that passage 40 times) I finally turned them off.

Umm, I've never been to a "Mass" when they were saying the rosary during Mass. I highly doudt you were watching the Mass. It is quite clear from what you have said that you understand little of what is going on in Catholicism so let me give you a little instruction on what is called the rosary. How do you know it was vain. Can you read their hearts and minds. Do you know that the rosary is a meditation on the life, death, and resurection of Jesus? Do you have a problem with us reflecting on his birth and early life (from scripture), his passion and death (from scripture), and his glorious resurrection and assention (from scripture) while we say the Hail Mary's, which are simply background asking Mary to pray with us, for us. Pure idolatry asking her to pray for us I guess.

If you don't like repetition in heaven you might not be able to turn off the four living creatures:


Rev 4
[8] And the four living creatures, each of them with six wings, are full of eyes all round and within, and day and night they never cease to sing, "Holy, holy, holy, is the Lord God Almighty,
who was and is and is to come!"

Let's see. They could easily do this about 8000 times a day. :o

You see, not all repetition is vain repetition. The blind beggar said over and over "Jesus son of david have mercy on me". The apostles were annoyed but Jesus was not and he cured him.

:wink:

Now is this obvious or am I still blind. Maybe it's not the Catholic who is always blind. 8-)

Blessings

 

[LittleNipper]

So when I watched "The Mass" presented on television one Sunday and this little TV group started to repeat over and over and over and over and over and over and over-------well, you get the true picture (you being Catholic and all), the vain repetition of Hail Mary full of grace...... (I do believe that one time they rambled through that passage 40 times) I finally turned them off.

Umm, I've never been to a "Mass" when they were saying the rosary during Mass. I highly doudt you were watching the Mass. It is quite clear from what you have said that you understand little of what is going on in Catholicism so let me give you a little instruction on what is called the rosary. How do you know it was vain. Can you read their hearts and minds. Do you know that the rosary is a meditation on the life, death, and resurection of Jesus? Do you have a problem with us reflecting on his birth and early life (from scripture), his passion and death (from scripture), and his glorious resurrection and assention (from scripture) while we say the Hail Mary's, which are simply background asking Mary to pray with us, for us. Pure idolatry asking her to pray for us I guess.

If you don't like repetition in heaven you might not be able to turn off the four living creatures:


Rev 4
[8] And the four living creatures, each of them with six wings, are full of eyes all round and within, and day and night they never cease to sing, "Holy, holy, holy, is the Lord God Almighty,
who was and is and is to come!"

Let's see. They could easily do this about 8000 times a day. :o

You see, not all repetition is vain repetition. The blind beggar said over and over "Jesus son of david have mercy on me". The apostles were annoyed but Jesus was not and he cured him.

:wink:

Now is this obvious or am I still blind. Maybe it's not the Catholic who is always blind. 8-)

Blessings

First off, you have no biblical proof that Mary hears anyone's prayers or that she can do anything for anybody if indeed she can hear them.

Secondly, the blind beggar was blind, but he knew who could heal him and it was not Mary.

Thirdly, all praise is reserved for GOD, even in heaven it would seem.

 

[ZeroTX]

As Thess mentioned, the Rosary is not said during mass. Those who wish to pray the rosary sometimes gather in the church several minutes BEFORE mass, and as a group of faithful, they pray the rosary. Each rosary focuses on the events of Christ's life, death & resurrection (which are stated aloud before each "decade" or set of prayers). Normally, you have probably 5-10% or less of the congregation who arrives early to do this, on their own, and not as a part of the mass. Sometimes others may arrive later, and join in with the prayer, which is always concluded before mass begins.

The signal for mass to begin is that everyone stands and begins singing a hymn. No prayers to Mary or the saints take place during the mass, save for the optional use of one form of the Pentitential Rite, where we ask God for forgiveness of our sins and we ask Mary and all the Angels and Saints to pray for us to the Lord our God. That one-liner is the only mention you will hear of Mary other than what is in the Nicene Creed, which I presume you also uphold as true.

I encourage everyone to watch a mass on EWTN sometime, even if only from a strictly curiosity perspective. You can find an order of the mass online and actually follow along with what is happening. Here's a pretty good explanation of what in the world is going on for non-Catholics to read:
http://www.grigaitis.net/?doc=articles/guide.html

If you want to read along with the Scripture readings while you watch, they are available for free here: http://www.usccb.org/nab/

Learning about how and why others do things cannot hurt and it will certainly help you to debate more intelligently with Catholics. As someone who grew up Evangelical Protestant, as the son of a Baptist pastor, worshipping in Baptist, Methodist, Congregational Methodist and non-denominational churches, I am familiar with the differences. Being familiar with both traditions (Evangelical/Protestant and Liturgical/Catholic) can only make you stronger in preaching the message of Christ.

God bless,

Michael

 

[thessalonian]

Your post has the tone of annoyance. Sorry if my scripture quotes annoy you.

First off, you have no biblical proof that Mary hears anyone's prayers or that she can do anything for anybody if indeed she can hear them.

Well no there is no "proof" I suppose but then your arguement is from silence and there is quite a lot of scriptural evidence she can in fact hear us.
Much of this question has been handled in this thread so I won't go very far in to it.

http://www.christianforums.net/viewtopic.php?t=24259

Isn't there great rejoicing in heaven over one repentant sinner? Yes I think there is. So quite apparently they know what is going on. Please read my PC server analogy in the above link. It says "eye has not seen nor ear heard what God has ready for those who love him". Now I have heard about computers that can "hear" the messages of perhaps billions of other computers. They are man's attempt to be able to "hear" what is going on in the rest of the world. I imagine our ability to "hear" and to "know" is much greater in heaven than here. Do you think?

Secondly, the blind beggar was blind, but he knew who could heal him and it was not Mary.

Well let's see now. Did Peter and Paul heal anyone? Well we certainly know God healed through them. Certainly they prayed for those who were healed. Was it by their grace or the grace of Christ that those whom they touched were healed? We both know the answer. Would anyone accuse someone of thanking them of idolatry as long as they saw that it was God healing through them? If pastor joe prays for you and your child is healed after being in a car accident. Do you say that pastor joe healed the child? We quite clearly recognize that it is the grace of Christ that heals and so your objection is a distortion. We recognize however that the prayers of a rigtheous person avail much and there are none more righteous as those before the throne of God in heaven. Their faith is perfected and it can move moutains.

Thirdly, all praise is reserved for GOD, even in heaven it would seem.

Hmmm. Did a search in the bible for "all praise" and it wasn't in the RSV. Didn't tell us than noone but God should be praised. Oddly enough I did a search in the bible just for praise and we have others recieving praise.

[13] Be subject for the Lord's sake to every human institution, whether it be to the emperor as supreme,
[14] or to governors as sent by him to punish those who do wrong and to praise those who do right.

Should I not praise my children when they do good?
Should workers not recieve praise from their bosses?

Certainly we are to praise God but you are definitely going beyond the scriptures if you say we cannot praise anyone else.

 

[LittleNipper]

As Thess mentioned, the Rosary is not said during mass. Those who wish to pray the rosary sometimes gather in the church several minutes BEFORE mass, and as a group of faithful, they pray the rosary. Each rosary focuses on the events of Christ's life, death & resurrection (which are stated aloud before each "decade" or set of prayers). Normally, you have probably 5-10% or less of the congregation who arrives early to do this, on their own, and not as a part of the mass. Sometimes others may arrive later, and join in with the prayer, which is always concluded before mass begins.

The signal for mass to begin is that everyone stands and begins singing a hymn. No prayers to Mary or the saints take place during the mass, save for the optional use of one form of the Pentitential Rite, where we ask God for forgiveness of our sins and we ask Mary and all the Angels and Saints to pray for us to the Lord our God. That one-liner is the only mention you will hear of Mary other than what is in the Nicene Creed, which I presume you also uphold as true.

I encourage everyone to watch a mass on EWTN sometime, even if only from a strictly curiosity perspective. You can find an order of the mass online and actually follow along with what is happening. Here's a pretty good explanation of what in the world is going on for non-Catholics to read:
http://www.grigaitis.net/?doc=articles/guide.html

If you want to read along with the Scripture readings while you watch, they are available for free here: http://www.usccb.org/nab/

Learning about how and why others do things cannot hurt and it will certainly help you to debate more intelligently with Catholics. As someone who grew up Evangelical Protestant, as the son of a Baptist pastor, worshipping in Baptist, Methodist, Congregational Methodist and non-denominational churches, I am familiar with the differences. Being familiar with both traditions (Evangelical/Protestant and Liturgical/Catholic) can only make you stronger in preaching the message of Christ.

God bless,

Michael

The show was called "THE MASS." And perhaps the Eucharist bit was over. The reality is that during this particular presentation the group got off on a tangent. It did nothing for me and I doubt any outsider learned anything scriptural. I was not impressed. One thing I do know, is that simply because one's father was/is a Baptist minister, doesn't count with regard to one's OWN personal relationship with GOD. It doesn't make you a believer. It doesn't save you. It doesn't even make you a nice person.

 

[thessalonian]

The rosary is never said during "The Mass". That would be liturgical abuse. There are Church canons forbidding such things. So if you saw it during "The Mass" you can't blame the Catholic Church for that. Seems more likely from the content of your posts that shows you know little about Catholicism that you did not know what you were watching.

 

[thessalonian]

Nipper,

Do tell how you know the difference between repetition and vain repetition? Can you read hearts and minds?

 

[LittleNipper]

Your post has the tone of annoyance. Sorry if my scripture quotes annoy you.

First off, you have no biblical proof that Mary hears anyone's prayers or that she can do anything for anybody if indeed she can hear them.

Well no there is no "proof" I suppose but then your arguement is from silence and there is quite a lot of scriptural evidence she can in fact hear us.
Much of this question has been handled in this thread so I won't go very far in to it.

http://www.christianforums.net/viewtopic.php?t=24259

Isn't there great rejoicing in heaven over one repentant sinner? Yes I think there is. So quite apparently they know what is going on. Please read my PC server analogy in the above link. It says "eye has not seen nor ear heard what God has ready for those who love him". Now I have heard about computers that can "hear" the messages of perhaps billions of other computers. They are man's attempt to be able to "hear" what is going on in the rest of the world. I imagine our ability to "hear" and to "know" is much greater in heaven than here. Do you think?

[quote:0aa6b]Secondly, the blind beggar was blind, but he knew who could heal him and it was not Mary.

Well let's see now. Did Peter and Paul heal anyone? Well we certainly know God healed through them. Certainly they prayed for those who were healed. Was it by their grace or the grace of Christ that those whom they touched were healed? We both know the answer. Would anyone accuse someone of thanking them of idolatry as long as they saw that it was God healing through them? If pastor joe prays for you and your child is healed after being in a car accident. Do you say that pastor joe healed the child? We quite clearly recognize that it is the grace of Christ that heals and so your objection is a distortion. We recognize however that the prayers of a rigtheous person avail much and there are none more righteous as those before the throne of God in heaven. Their faith is perfected and it can move moutains.

Thirdly, all praise is reserved for GOD, even in heaven it would seem.

Hmmm. Did a search in the bible for "all praise" and it wasn't in the RSV. Didn't tell us than noone but God should be praised. Oddly enough I did a search in the bible just for praise and we have others recieving praise.

[13] Be subject for the Lord's sake to every human institution, whether it be to the emperor as supreme,
[14] or to governors as sent by him to punish those who do wrong and to praise those who do right.

Should I not praise my children when they do good?
Should workers not recieve praise from their bosses?

Certainly we are to praise God but you are definitely going beyond the scriptures if you say we cannot praise anyone else.[/quote:0aa6b]

Your scripture quotes do not annoy me. Your seemingly condescending tone I find an annoyance. There is nothing wrong with giving praise where praise is due. I assume you know your children and understand their trials and triumphs. Not so, in an assumed relationship with Mary. Mary is worth of biblical study and what we know of her is worthy of our emulation. We do not, however, know Mary. And we should not pretend we do. I believe you are going beyond the scriptures if you look to Mary for guidance, ask Mary for to put in a good word or even imagine you can talk to Mary Mary is no longer a partaker of this place.

 

[thessalonian]

Your seemingly condescending tone I find an annoyance.

It is imagined. You are simply at a severe dissadvantage in discussing Catholicism. That should not be annoying to you as you are not Catholic. I would beg to differ about knowing Mary but it is a moot point. Ever had one of those prayer emails asking for prayers for someone you don't know. Perhaps a child with Lukemea that you have never heard of? They don't know you either. Would you deny a prayer request because they don't know you and you don't know them? What is your point?

But of course the bottom line in all of this in the context of this thread is can you show me where I divinize mary? That is after all what this thread is about. Do try to be honest in your response.

 

[LittleNipper]

Nipper,

Do tell how you know the difference between repetition and vain repetition? Can you read hearts and minds?

The difference is obviously, something GOD can distinguish; however, if the person sounds like he is reciting from memory or reading a script, the chances are his heart is in another place. The words are not his own......

 

[thessalonian]

If it is for God to judge then why did you? Did all the four living Creatures miraculusly come up with the words to the Holy, Holy, Holy themselves. Ever heard the phrase "when you sing you pray twice". Ever heard the psalms set to music? Quite beautiful actually. Can the psalms be used in prayer? Is that scripted? There are repeats and stanza's in music. Do you suppose singers committ them to memory? Is this vain repetition? I've heard songs in Protestant services. Do you oppose them? Shall I bring up some contemporary Protestant music and see if it repeats anything? Is this all scripted since only the author of the song came up with the words?

You see your arguements don't hold up very well when critical analysis is used. Sorry.