The catholics have divinized Mary

[LittleNipper]

Re: Which are Biblical?

Read this... and then decide. Is this Biblical? I see many which go directly against what the Bible teaches us. How many can you spot?

Consecration to Mary is secondly an external service, based on true exterior devotion. St. Louis ...

Gary,

If you actually take the time to read St Louis de Montefort's work, you will find the first several chapters have the basic caveat that all is given for God. He realizes that Mary is a created being and can do nothing without God. Any "worship" given to Mary is idolatry. HE HIMSELF says all of this before discussing Consecration to Mary. If you are interested, I can dig up the book and quote you different sections.

As to your "arithmetic", don't you get the basic gist of the Scriptures that tell us that love of our neighbor IS love of God? Over and over, we are told to love neighbor (whom we can see), which is identified with love of God. Thus, love of neighbor does NOT take away from love of God. That concept is KEY to understanding devotion to Mary or a saint. Honoring God's great creations is merely a means of honoring the creator Himself.

Here is an example that might help to understand this:

Say you and your wife go to your friend's to eat a dinner. She cooks a great lasagna. After eating it, your wife comments "that was a great lasagna, the best I have ever eaten". Do you jump up on a chair in defense of your friend, saying "HOW DARE YOU TAKE AWAY THE GLORY OF OUR FRIEND!!! YOU MUST GIVE HER ALL THE ATTENTION, NOT THE LASAGNA"!!! No one says such nonsense. By noting the creation (lasagna/Mary) we are merely praising the creator (friend/God), since the creation does not make itself nor does it add to the creation's work.

St. Montefort also makes these distinctions. NOTHING Mary does or did ADDS to what God has done - all that she has is FROM God. By praising Mary, we merely praise God, since Mary cannot add anything without God.

Regards

Mary added and adds nothing any more than any other human.

 

[Gary]

As to your "arithmetic", don't you get the basic gist of the Scriptures that tell us that love of our neighbor IS love of God? Over and over, we are told to love neighbor (whom we can see), which is identified with love of God. Thus, love of neighbor does NOT take away from love of God. That concept is KEY to understanding devotion to Mary or a saint. Honoring God's great creations is merely a means of honoring the creator Himself.

I love my neighbor. But I don't PRAY to my neighbor. I don't build statues to my neighbor. I don't "take care of (my neighbor's) confraternities, to adorn (my neighbor's) altars, to crown and ornament (my neighbor's) images." etc etc

I am sure you can see the difference.

 

[Gary]

Say you and your wife go to your friend's to eat a dinner. She cooks a great lasagna. After eating it, your wife comments "that was a great lasagna, the best I have ever eaten". Do you jump up on a chair in defense of your friend, saying "HOW DARE YOU TAKE AWAY THE GLORY OF OUR FRIEND!!! YOU MUST GIVE HER ALL THE ATTENTION, NOT THE LASAGNA"!!! No one says such nonsense. By noting the creation (lasagna/Mary) we are merely praising the creator (friend/God), since the creation does not make itself nor does it add to the creation's work.

Nope, I would not do that..... neither would I start praying TO the lasagna, nor would I build a statue of the lasagna, neither would I wear a picture of the lasagna around my neck. Lastly, I would not ask the lasagna to protect me!

Can you see it now?

:wink:

 

[Drew]

Well, to use another analogy like thessalonian's:

I give myself entirely to you, my mistress... and to show my devotion to you, I consecrate to you this day my eyes, my ears, my mouth, my heart, my whole being without reserve. Wherefore, good mistress, as I am your own, keep me, guard me, as your property and possession.

I am sure my wife would understand that my devotion to my mistress is actually a way of honoring my wife!

.... besides, I only give devotion to my mistress (and my eyes, my ears, my mouth and my heart) and I give worship to my wife!

:D

Now its my turn to claim bad analogy (although I believe that my objection is indeed legitimate).

Clearly, being in a state where one has a mistress means that one is not committed to a proper and healthy approach to marriage. The analogy you provide breaks down because the relationship we have with God is not really like a marriage, in at least one specific respect. We fulfill Jesus' clear words when we turn our attention to ministering to others - this is no way detracts from our devotion to Him, it is in fact constitutive of that devotion as per Jesus' teaching that I have already quoted.

A situation with a mistress and a wife is entirely different. Having a mistress violates the marriage "contract" - the agreement between husband and wife. Devoting yourself to a mistress is indeed a violation. But when a Christian devotes himself to others, he is doing precisely what Jesus wants him to do.

 

[Gary]

Devotion to Mary is not devoting yourself to helping others .. or "loving your neighbor"

You have not answered the question. Do you pray to Mary?

 

[thessalonian]

I knew you wouldn't like my analogy. Nothing new. Your inability to grasp the depth of these things is nothing new.

Devoting myself to my wife is devoting myself to God. I am 100% devoted to her and my family. That is 100% devoted to God.

Do tell, could the will of anyone in heaven be apart from the desires of the will of God?

Tell me also, can you show me anyone in scripture who becomes born again without being baptized? The three thousand on Pentecost" The four thousand a few days later? The Eunuch or the Jailor or Cornelius? Protestants do it all the time. I've not seen anyone baptized at a billy graham crusade where thel run up to do altar calls. Where are altar calls in the Bible? Yet they ask Catholics "where is that in the Bible". Is everything you do exactly in the Bible Gary? I very much doudt it. The things about Mary that Catholics do are implied but you do not have eyes to see.

 

[Drew]

I think that the "new testament math" is such that an ounce of devotion directed towards any good cause is really can also directed to Jesus.

OK, let's get practical again. Do you think that prayers and consecration to Mary is a "good cause"? Explain.

Please note that my comments were directed at the precise content of the quotation that you initially posted, and nothing more. There was nothing in that post about praying to Mary. I do not think that praying to Mary is a good cause and to say this is entirely consistent with what I have posted. And based on the dictionary definition of consecrate: "dedicated to a sacred purpose", I would say that "consecration" to Mary is indeed a good cause. To the extent that I consecrate myself to any person (remember, for a sacred purpose), I am doing a good thing.

Do you pray to Mary? Does she answer you?

No and no.

Do you pray to God? Does He answer you?

Yes and yes

 

[Gary]

Having a mistress violates the marriage "contract" - the agreement between husband and wife. Devoting yourself to a mistress is indeed a violation.

Yes. Marriage implies "love your wife".

Just like the Jesus says. "Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind."

Now if you have a mistress (in this case, Mary) you have indeed violated the marriage and the command to "Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind." Roman Catholics (and you?) would rather give your eyes, your everything to MARY!

Then Jesus goes on to "loving your neighbor". That is about how you treat LIVING people. You incorrectly try and put Mary into this category.

 

[thessalonian]

Then Jesus goes on to "loving your neighbor". That is about how you treat LIVING people. You incorrectly try and put Mary into this category.

Those in heaven are dead? Gary, don't you know that God is not the God of the dead but of the living? :-?

 

[thessalonian]

Devotion to Mary is not devoting yourself to helping others .. or "loving your neighbor"

Quite clearly you do not understand devotion to Mary. That is completely in line with devotion to Mary. Stop trying to be a Catholic expert. Your not.

 

[Gary]

Of course, Jesus also had to explain what "love your neighbor" meant. You will find it in your Bible.

The Roman Catholic asked: "And who is my neighbor?"
Jesus did not reply: "Mary"..... but rather explained it like this

Luke 10:30-37 30In reply Jesus said: "A man was going down from Jerusalem to Jericho, when he fell into the hands of robbers. They stripped him of his clothes, beat him and went away, leaving him half dead. 31A priest happened to be going down the same road, and when he saw the man, he passed by on the other side. 32So too, a Levite, when he came to the place and saw him, passed by on the other side. 33But a Samaritan, as he traveled, came where the man was; and when he saw him, he took pity on him. 34He went to him and bandaged his wounds, pouring on oil and wine. Then he put the man on his own donkey, took him to an inn and took care of him. 35The next day he took out two silver coins[a] and gave them to the innkeeper. 'Look after him,' he said, 'and when I return, I will reimburse you for any extra expense you may have.'

36"Which of these three do you think was a neighbor to the man who fell into the hands of robbers?"

37The expert in the law replied, "The one who had mercy on him."
Jesus told him, "Go and do likewise."

hmmmmm... NOT go and worship Mary and build statues to Mary etc etc... but to help others who you would not normally consider to be "your neighbor."

 

[Drew]

Devotion to Mary is not devoting yourself to helping others .. or "loving your neighbor"

Quite clearly you do not understand devotion to Mary. That is completely in line with devotion to Mary. Stop trying to be a Catholic expert. Your not.

I think thess may have a point here. I do not generally make it my business (as so many do) to presume what others believe. All I have done is to try to make a case that the original quote you posted does not necessarily constitute a violation of true Christian faith. I know diddly squat about how Catholics actually conceive of Mary. I still say that the precise content of your original post does not justify your implication that such devotion is misguided.

You appear to be adopting a certain interpretation of this devotion to Mary and, of course, certain forms of devotion to Mary would indeed be misguided. But I see no evidence (yet at least) that there cannot be a form of this devotion that is entirely consistent with other Biblical teachings. And time has taught me to be careful in assuming what others actually mean when they express an item of doctrine.

 

[ZeroTX]

You have not answered the question. Do you pray to Mary?

Actually, the topic of the thread is whether or not Catholics have "divinized" Mary. By that, I assume they mean divinized to mean "to make divine" or "to deify" (from dictionary.com).

To that, the official Church teaching is, no, we do not deify, worship or adore Mary. The following is a quite from the Catechism of the Catholic Church:

"'All generations will call me blessed': 'The Church's devotion to the Blessed Virgin is intrinsic to Christian worship.' The Church rightly honors 'the Blessed Virgin with special devotion. From the most ancient times the Blessed Virgin has been honored with the title of 'Mother of God,'..." "This very special devotion . . . differs essentially from the adoration which is given to the incarnate Word and equally to the Father and the Holy Spirit, and greatly fosters this adoration." CCC 971

If the question is do we pray to Mary, then the answer is yes. The misconception, though, is that prayer = worship. It does not. Because we speak, or ask, Mary for her intercession does not indicate worship. Definitions of "pray" include: to offer, to bring, to make petition, to ask, to implore, to beseech, etc. Just because your definition of prayer seems to equate to worship, does not mean that this is the only meaning, nor does it actually mean that.

What I believe, based on real world experience, is this: For Evangelical/Fundamentalists, pray has become synonymous with worship, because there is little else that goes on in a those churches that can qualify as worship. A few songs are sung and a 45 minute sermon ensues. On the other hand, in the liturgical churches (Catholic, Anglican/Episcopal, Lutheran, Orthodox), we worship by bowing on our knees in adoration of our Lord and we believe, as all Christians before the 16th century did, that we are indeed in the very presence of Christ's Body & Blood and that we consume it in communion. Thus, we need not keep to the narrow view that the word "pray" means "worship." It does not. It took me a while to grasp this idea, until it occurred to me that the reasons for my presumption of the meaning of "pray" came explicitly from my Evangelical upbringing. Yet, I had heard "pray" used many times to mean "ask"... If you read through Catholic doctrine, you will find that when we mean worship, we say worship or adoration. Pray does not exclusively mean worship in Catholic theology. For giggles, do a search of "pray" in the Catechism and a search for "adoration" in the Catechism and see what the context and action is for each. You will see how pray is used very frequently and casually, whereas adoration is used exclusively for worshipping God. There's a reason: to pray does not mean to worship.

Furthermore, there is no Church teaching that indicates the ability of Mary to perform miracles and deeds from heaven on her own. Some Catholics may believe this, including apparitions, etc. Though the Church has supported 2 or 3 of these as legitimate, even then, no Catholic is obligated to believe in them. Individual revelation is just that, individual and not part of Church doctrine any more than if an angel came to your bedroom and spoke to you that it would become Baptist doctrine. Additionally, the prayers we may choose to pray to Mary are most often prayers requesting that she pray for us to the Lord. We ask Mary to "...pray for us sinners now and in the hour of our death..." that we may have her praying for us, indeed, as we hope to have other Christians and saints praying for us at that time. I would also add that there have been many excesses in Marian devotion (IMO), particularly from Latin America. Despite popular Fundamentalist belief, Catholics are indeed able to come to their own conclusions on many things AND many Catholics go against Church teaching by taking things too far (e.g. worshipping a statue of Mary would NOT be within Church teaching, but some in Latin America and elsewhere may take their veneration too far, into the adoration category, and that is completely sinful). I had plenty of issues with how Mary is excessively venerated, particularly by Latin Americans. I assumed this to be the Catholic norm, but I found in reality, it is not. There is a special place that Mary holds in the Church, but I have certainly never seen a 9 foot tall bleeding statue anywhere I've been, nor have I seen anyone who would worship it. A lot of what I believed in that regard came from movies and TV.... and we certainly know what good factual tools movies and TV are when it comes to religion, eh?

God bless,

Michael

 

[Gary]

I do not generally make it my business (as so many do) to presume what others believe. All I have done is to try to make a case that the original quote you posted does not necessarily constitute a violation of true Christian faith. I know diddly squat about how Catholics actually conceive of Mary. I still say that the precise content of your original post does not justify your implication that such devotion is misguided.

You obviously missed what I said:

If a Roman Catholic was honest he/she would admit that they spend a lot of time worshipping and saying prayers to Mary. One ex-Catholic who joined our church told us about the Roman Catholic prayer she repeated every morning in which she "consecrated" everything to Mary!

She now tells us that she spent more time worrying about what Mary would be thinking about what she did than focussing on Jesus. So, unlike your conclusion, my reservation is not misguided.

You appear to be adopting a certain interpretation of this devotion to Mary and, of course, certain forms of devotion to Mary would indeed be misguided. But I see no evidence (yet at least) that there cannot be a form of this devotion that is entirely consistent with other Biblical teachings. And time has taught me to be careful in assuming what others actually mean when they express an item of doctrine.

We have several ex-Roman catholics who have since come to true saving faith and a relationship with our Lord Jesus Christ. They all talk about their incorrect "devotion/worship" of Mary.... it only became clear to them when freed of their RC dogma.

 

[thessalonian]

Of course, Jesus also had to explain what "love your neighbor" meant. You will find it in your Bible.

The Roman Catholic asked: "And who is my neighbor?"
Jesus did not reply: "Mary"..... but rather explained it like this

Luke 10:30-37 30In reply Jesus said: "A man was going down from Jerusalem to Jericho, when he fell into the hands of robbers. They stripped him of his clothes, beat him and went away, leaving him half dead. 31A priest happened to be going down the same road, and when he saw the man, he passed by on the other side. 32So too, a Levite, when he came to the place and saw him, passed by on the other side. 33But a Samaritan, as he traveled, came where the man was; and when he saw him, he took pity on him. 34He went to him and bandaged his wounds, pouring on oil and wine. Then he put the man on his own donkey, took him to an inn and took care of him. 35The next day he took out two silver coins[a] and gave them to the innkeeper. 'Look after him,' he said, 'and when I return, I will reimburse you for any extra expense you may have.'

36"Which of these three do you think was a neighbor to the man who fell into the hands of robbers?"

37The expert in the law replied, "The one who had mercy on him."
Jesus told him, "Go and do likewise."

hmmmmm... NOT go and worship Mary and build statues to Mary etc etc... but to help others who you would not normally consider to be "your neighbor."

More ignoring questions and then twisting Catholic teaching back to worship. More logical fallacy, relating two unrelated things, i.e. statues and loving your neighbor, as if there is only one part of a Christian life. Jesus didn't say here go and post on message boards did he Gary. That is how ridiculous your comment is. But you will not see it that way. Are you going to not love those around you when you get to heaven Gary? Are they not members of the body of christ such that "death" separated them from Christ. I thought romans 8 told us that death does not separate us from the love of God. But you seem to say it does. Now are we to love those whom Christ loveS. Yes, he currently does.

Now how bout dem alteer culls without bapytisms. Where er dey in da bible?(spellings intentional).

 

[Drew]

I do not generally make it my business (as so many do) to presume what others believe. All I have done is to try to make a case that the original quote you posted does not necessarily constitute a violation of true Christian faith. I know diddly squat about how Catholics actually conceive of Mary. I still say that the precise content of your original post does not justify your implication that such devotion is misguided.

You obviously missed what I said:

If a Roman Catholic was honest he/she would admit that they spend a lot of time worshipping and saying prayers to Mary. One ex-Catholic who joined our church told us about the Roman Catholic prayer she repeated every morning in which she "consecrated" everything to Mary!

She now tells us that she spent more time worrying about what Mary would be thinking about what she did than focussing on Jesus. So, unlike your conclusion, my reservation is not misguided.

My conclusion is not misguided and I will now explain precisely why.

I have been very clear about what I have been arguing, and I never claimed to address anything other than the material you quoted:

My Queen and my Mother, I give myself entirely to you; and to show my devotion to you, I consecrate to you this day my eyes, my ears, my mouth, my heart, my whole being without reserve. Wherefore, good Mother, as I am your own, keep me, guard me, as your property and possession. Amen.

and your subsequent assertion that such devotion should go to Jesus. And my argument that it is entirely plausible that such devotion can be consistent with true Christian practice has not been refuted. If you claim that it has, please identify the posts by time please.

Now that I turn my attention to this other post of yours (the one above about the woman saying prayers to Mary) - I would agree that praying to Mary does not seem consonant with my take on Biblical teaching.

But I have never claimed otherwise and the careful reader will, of course, know this.

 

[Gary]

... and any careful reader will note that I started this part of the discussion by saying:

If a Roman Catholic was honest he/she would admit that they spend a lot of time worshipping and saying prayers to Mary. One ex-Catholic who joined our church told us about the Roman Catholic prayer she repeated every morning in which she "consecrated" everything to Mary!

....and then went on to post what I believe is the kind of prayer she was praying.

My Queen and my Mother, I give myself entirely to you; and to show my devotion to you, I consecrate to you this day my eyes, my ears, my mouth, my heart, my whole being without reserve. Wherefore, good Mother, as I am your own, keep me, guard me, as your property and possession. Amen.

... and then asked

Sad really. To give it all to Mary when it should be our Lord Jesus Christ who you give it all to!

If you give yourself entirely to Mary, where what part does Jesus get? Care to explain your arithmetic?

You have tried to equate this consecration to Mary to "love your neighbor"... and I have debunked that analogy.

I have used the Bible to explain what "love your neighbor" really means. Try Luke 11:30-37

That has nothing to do with Mary devotion and consecration of your eyes, your ears, your mouth, your heart, your whole being without reserve to Mary!

:-?

 

[Drew]

I do not generally make it my business (as so many do) to presume what others believe. All I have done is to try to make a case that the original quote you posted does not necessarily constitute a violation of true Christian faith. I know diddly squat about how Catholics actually conceive of Mary. I still say that the precise content of your original post does not justify your implication that such devotion is misguided.

You obviously missed what I said:

If a Roman Catholic was honest he/she would admit that they spend a lot of time worshipping and saying prayers to Mary. One ex-Catholic who joined our church told us about the Roman Catholic prayer she repeated every morning in which she "consecrated" everything to Mary!

She now tells us that she spent more time worrying about what Mary would be thinking about what she did than focussing on Jesus. So, unlike your conclusion, my reservation is not misguided.

Another reason why my conclusion is not misguided and stands unrefuted: The fact that there may be some individuals who have an incorrect conceptualization about the proper way to be devoted to Mary does not mean that the concept of devotion to Mary is unworkable. It merely means that some people are misguided. This should not surprise anyone.

I have only ever made a plausibility argument - I have never claimed anything more. I know nothing about how RC's conceive of their relationship to Mary, and I would not presume to know. All I have shown is that "devotion" to Mary does not necessitate witholding devotion to Jesus. Of course, if some Catholic wishes to express the "official line" on the precise nature of that devotion, then the issue can be re-examined.

 

[Gary]

I have already refuted what you have written and suggested... and given the correct sequence.

http://www.christianforums.net/viewtopi ... 638#287638

 

[Drew]

You have tried to equate this consecration to Mary to "love your neighbor"... and I have debunked that analogy.

I have done no such thing Gary. I never stated that consecration to Mary was the same as "loving your neighbour". Please provide the post where I said this. I do not know whose argument you have debunked, but it certainly was not mine.