The catholics have divinized Mary

[thessalonian]

On May 7 1977, Pope John Paul II dedicated his general audience to "the Virgin Mary"

Perhaps you will do me the favor of giving me the real date of this audience so that I can authenticate your quote. You see JP II was not Pope in 1977. :-? It wouldn't be the first time you have twisted or taken out of context a quote or your authors have translated it to suit their needs. Oddly enough I do a web search for your marian worship quote and only find it on anti-catholic sites. I search the vatican site which has all of his audiences and it is not there.

It appears that it was May 7, 1997. Here is the quote from the vatican website:

"2. In the light of this entrustment to his beloved disciple, one can understand the authentic meaning of Marian devotion in the ecclesial community. In fact, it places Christians in Jesus’ filial relationship to his mother, putting them in a condition to grow in intimacy with both of them. "

Context:
http://www.vatican.va/holy_father/john_ ... 97_en.html

Hmmmm now they know latin to english translation and the intent of the Popes words. In fact I do believe that he read his audiences in several languages including english. So I think it quite unlikely that he said "worship" as the many anti-catholic websites on the net charge. Now I am devoted to my wife and children. Does this mean I worship them? I don't think so.

Why do anti-catholic websites have to go to such ends to twist and distort Catholicism. Why do people like Gary not research just a little bit. The errors are not hard to expose but they make no effort. I can see why Gary did not vote in my other thread about distortions. :-? This is truly an embarrassment for him. How can these people be trusted in anything that they post? When is bearing false witness going to matter to them? : No, I am quite wrong. Gary will not be embarrassed. He will just slide on to the next half truth and distortion. :roll:

Blessings

 

[Gary]

What is the argument about?

Bless you thessalonian... so I typed 1977 instead of 1997. Please forgive me. All you had to do was follow the link. You type "arguement" instead of "argument" many, many times. I could fault your grammar and your interpersonal skills. Instead, I bless you.

You do a wonderful job of displaying Roman Catholic love. It is not the first time. I am sure you convince many!

Bless you.

 

[thessalonian]

I see you didn't address the devotion/worship issue. Instead you resorted to questions of character and sarcasm. I guess that is your winning method as well. :roll:

 

[LittleNipper]

If it is for God to judge then why did you? Did all the four living Creatures miraculusly come up with the words to the Holy, Holy, Holy themselves. Ever heard the phrase "when you sing you pray twice". Ever heard the psalms set to music? Quite beautiful actually. Can the psalms be used in prayer? Is that scripted? There are repeats and stanza's in music. Do you suppose singers committ them to memory? Is this vain repetition? I've heard songs in Protestant services. Do you oppose them? Shall I bring up some contemporary Protestant music and see if it repeats anything? Is this all scripted since only the author of the song came up with the words?

You see your arguements don't hold up very well when critical analysis is used. Sorry.

Yes, I've heard the Bible set to music. Protestants have been doing that for longer then Catholics, or at least it would seem that Catholics tend to sing more Protestant hymns then they do Catholic ones. Just kidding (but it isn't far from reality)! A person may use anything in prayer, if his heart is in it. If one is doing something out of ritualism, it is just that. I will say I love the "older" hymns on a whole rather then the 7-11 praise songs sung over and over. Oh, my wife's uncle clued me in on what at 7-11 song is. It is the same seven words repeated 11 times.... : I kind of remember the old BANDSTAND show where the kid would rate the song. "Oh, I love that one---I'll give it an 85. It's got a good dance beat." :robot: "Cannot understand the words but the beat is good and the tune makes me smile."

 

[LittleNipper]

Your seemingly condescending tone I find an annoyance.

It is imagined. You are simply at a severe dissadvantage in discussing Catholicism. That should not be annoying to you as you are not Catholic. I would beg to differ about knowing Mary but it is a moot point. Ever had one of those prayer emails asking for prayers for someone you don't know. Perhaps a child with Lukemea that you have never heard of? They don't know you either. Would you deny a prayer request because they don't know you and you don't know them? What is your point?

But of course the bottom line in all of this in the context of this thread is can you show me where I divinize mary? That is after all what this thread is about. Do try to be honest in your response.

Well, I'm alive in this world and I believe GOD will teach me something when I pray for others. I've also seen Catholics print the message to Saint Jude in the newspaper that always works if you have it printed-----so they say. :roll: I've noted that when the date was corrected to 1997 you didn't have a clear response. Well, perhaps only Pope John II worshipped Mary and you're a more Spiritual Catholic and way more responsible.... Anyway that pope died. Perhaps the Holy Spirit was getting annoyed with his mistakes of worship and non-worship. It wouldn't be the first time such has happened. ps > How can someone be devoted to someone they never met and how can one show devotion to someone that never responds?

 

[thessalonian]

I've noted that when the date was corrected to 1997 you didn't have a clear response. Well, perhaps only Pope John II worshipped Mary and you're a more Spiritual Catholic and way more responsible....

The difference between the word devotion and worship is not clear to you? :roll: He did not say worship. He said devotion. As I said before I am devoted to my wife. That does not mean I worship her. The pope had the catechism written and it says that worship and adoration is resevered for God alone. I most certainly am not more spiritual than JP II was.

An 84 year old man dying is the Holy Spirit getting sick of his mistakes? I'd say the Holy Spirit gave him a good long life. Do you expect to be around for ever or what.

 

[francisdesales]

I've also seen Catholics print the message to Saint Jude in the newspaper that always works if you have it printed-----so they say.

The Church doesn't teach such superstitious stuff. Just because someone practices such devotion doesn't mean that the Church has condoned it.

Well, perhaps only Pope John II worshipped Mary and you're a more Spiritual Catholic and way more responsible....

How do you know the Pope worshipped Mary? Did he ever say that Mary was divine? What leads you to believe such things? Did he say he worshipped Mary?

Anyway that pope died. Perhaps the Holy Spirit was getting annoyed with his mistakes of worship and non-worship.

So when you die, what is it that you have done that will have "annoyed" the Spirit to allow you to be killed off?

How can someone be devoted to someone they never met and how can one show devotion to someone that never responds?

An agnostic can ask you the same exact question about Jesus Christ...
Our devotion to Mary and her response to us is based on faith in the teachings of the Church, just as your devotion to Christ and HIS response is based on the Church's teachings...

Regards

 

[Gary]

I give my all to Mary...

If a Roman Catholic was honest he/she would admit that they spend a lot of time worshipping and saying prayers to Mary. One ex-Catholic who joined our church told us about the Roman Catholic prayer she repeated every morning in which she "consecrated" everything to Mary!

:-?

 

[thessalonian]

As I said. He will not acknowledge his error but will simply slide along to the next attack.

 

[Gary]

Mary.... or Jesus

One such Roman Catholic prayer/consecration goes like this:

My Queen and my Mother, I give myself entirely to you; and to show my devotion to you, I consecrate to you this day my eyes, my ears, my mouth, my heart, my whole being without reserve. Wherefore, good Mother, as I am your own, keep me, guard me, as your property and possession. Amen.

:o :o

Sad really. To give it all to Mary when it should be our Lord Jesus Christ who you give it all to!

If you give yourself entirely to Mary, where what part does Jesus get? Care to explain your arithmetic?

:-?

 

[thessalonian]

Hmmmm. If I serve my wife and children daily and my neighbor daily and do well at my work in service to my company and coworkers is a part of this for a good of them and a part of it for God?

Now perhaps my wife would be bedridden such that she needed all of my service for a time. Would I be only serving her such that I was not serving the Lord as well? Nope. I would be serving him by serving her.

Nope all is for God! The principal should be understood from this example.


It's called the New Testament Math.

:-D

 

[Gary]

Bad analogy. When I give my eyes, my ears, my mouth, my heart, my whole being without reserve to Mary... how can that be the same as giving every thought to Jesus? ... to allow every thought to be brought under the control of the Holy Spirit?

:-?

 

[Gary]

... you also confuse the physical (your wife etc) with the spiritual (Mary and Jesus). So again, the analogy carries little weight.

Can you find a Scriptural reference where someone in the Bible consecrated his all to Mary?

 

[Gary]

Which are Biblical?

Read this... and then decide. Is this Biblical? I see many which go directly against what the Bible teaches us. How many can you spot?

Consecration to Mary is secondly an external service, based on true exterior devotion. St. Louis numbers some of the external acts of devotion, where he says: "True devotion to Our Lady also has several exterior practices, of which the following are the principle ones:
(1) to enroll ourselves in Her confraternities and enter Her congregations;
(2) to join the religious order instituted in Her honor;
(3) to proclaim Her praises;
(4) to give alms, fast and to undergo outward and inward mortifications in Her honor;
(5) to wear Her liveries, such as the Rosary, the Scapular or the little chain;
(6) to recite with attention, devotion and modesty the Holy Rosary, composed of fifteen decades ... or of five decades...;
(7) to sing, or have sung, spiritual canticles in Her honor;
(8) to make a number of genuflections or reverences" in her honor while offering Her prayers and praises;
(9) "to take care of Her confraternities, to adorn Her altars, to crown and ornament Her images;
(10) to take carry Her images, or to have them carried, in procession, and to carry a picture or image of Her about on our own person, as a mighty arm against the evil spirit;
(11) to have copies of Her name or picture made and placed in churches, or in houses, or on the gates and entrances into cities, churches and houses;
(12) to consecrate ourselves to Her in a special and solemn manner." (True Devotion, n. 113)

Source: http://www.franciscan-archive.org/bvm/pfconsec.html

:o :o

 

[Drew]

Re: Mary.... or Jesus

My Queen and my Mother, I give myself entirely to you; and to show my devotion to you, I consecrate to you this day my eyes, my ears, my mouth, my heart, my whole being without reserve. Wherefore, good Mother, as I am your own, keep me, guard me, as your property and possession. Amen.

I would say the following in defence of the idea that the above prayer can legitimately be integrated into a true Christian experience:

The idea that to give one's whole being to Mary means to deny something from Jesus is based on a naive conceptualization of the nature of relationships. It denies the interconnectedness of us all that I think underlies Jesus' claim that "'I tell you the truth, whatever you did for one of the least of these brothers of mine, you did for me". I believe that many evangelicals engage in overly simplistic thinking when they claim the name of Jesus and yet ignore the needs of the destitute, as if these two things are separable - they are not. I think that the "new testament math" is such that an ounce of devotion directed towards any good cause is really can also directed to Jesus. Again, there is no real seperability here.

The evangelical mantra that priorities should be: 1. God, 2. Family, 3. whatever.... is another example. Such thinking does not map well to the rich interconnectedness of all things. There is no need for such a "choice".

Also, there is nothing wrong with thess's analogy, specifically in regard to his provision of a "physical" example. Frequently, analogies are erroneously attacked because of such a category discrepancy. An analogy involves identifying structural and / or thematic similarities between situations that are otherwise unlike. So, it is fair game to make an analogy like thess has done.

 

[Gary]

Worship or devotion?

The difference between the word devotion and worship is not clear to you? He did not say worship. He said devotion.

Yeah, right!

Let us see what the pope said: Pope St. Pius X, a member of the Third Order of St. Francis, says about this degree:

"For to be right and good, worship of the Mother of God ought to spring from the heart; acts of the body have here neither utility nor value if the acts of the soul have no part in them. Now these latter can only have one object, which is that we should fully carry out what the divine Son of Mary commands.

http://www.franciscan-archive.org/bvm/pfconsec.html

 

[LittleNipper]

I've also seen Catholics print the message to Saint Jude in the newspaper that always works if you have it printed-----so they say.

The Church doesn't teach such superstitious stuff. Just because someone practices such devotion doesn't mean that the Church has condoned it.

Well, perhaps only Pope John II worshipped Mary and you're a more Spiritual Catholic and way more responsible....

How do you know the Pope worshipped Mary? Did he ever say that Mary was divine? What leads you to believe such things? Did he say he worshipped Mary?

Anyway that pope died. Perhaps the Holy Spirit was getting annoyed with his mistakes of worship and non-worship.

So when you die, what is it that you have done that will have "annoyed" the Spirit to allow you to be killed off?

How can someone be devoted to someone they never met and how can one show devotion to someone that never responds?

An agnostic can ask you the same exact question about Jesus Christ...
Our devotion to Mary and her response to us is based on faith in the teachings of the Church, just as your devotion to Christ and HIS response is based on the Church's teachings...

Regards

Well, let's see. In Luke 14:26 Jesus said, and I quote.

"If any come to me, and hate not by comparison his father, and mother, and wife, and children, and brethren, and sisters, and yes and his own life also, he cannot be my disciple."

Now, it seems odd that JESUS wants me to be devoted to HIM and hate in comparison my own mother and yet be devoted to MARY. This JESUS never says anywhere.

And again JESUS is quoted as saying in Mark 3:33-35

"For whomever shall do the will of GOD, the same is my brother, and my sister, and mother."

So JESUS wasn't interested in building a pedestal for HIS own mother. HIS interest was to bring everyone to HIM.

What a church doesn't ridicule, it condones by its very silence. The day I die will be the result of my sin and the sins of others----the very same reason the Pope died and Mary died (sinful wretch that she was). An atheist sees not GOD because he doesn't trust in answers to his prayers. I do not pray to Mary nor do I ask through prayer (since Mary is not around) for her to go speak to JESUS on my behalf. I can and do speak to My HEAVENLY FATHER in the name of the LORD JESUS CHRIST and GOD always answers my prayers.

 

[Gary]

Well, to use another analogy like thessalonian's:

I give myself entirely to you, my mistress... and to show my devotion to you, I consecrate to you this day my eyes, my ears, my mouth, my heart, my whole being without reserve. Wherefore, good mistress, as I am your own, keep me, guard me, as your property and possession.

I am sure my wife would understand that my devotion to my mistress is actually a way of honoring my wife!

.... besides, I only give devotion to my mistress (and my eyes, my ears, my mouth and my heart) and I give worship to my wife!

:D

 

[francisdesales]

Re: Which are Biblical?

Read this... and then decide. Is this Biblical? I see many which go directly against what the Bible teaches us. How many can you spot?

Consecration to Mary is secondly an external service, based on true exterior devotion. St. Louis ...

Gary,

If you actually take the time to read St Louis de Montefort's work, you will find the first several chapters have the basic caveat that all is given for God. He realizes that Mary is a created being and can do nothing without God. Any "worship" given to Mary is idolatry. HE HIMSELF says all of this before discussing Consecration to Mary. If you are interested, I can dig up the book and quote you different sections.

As to your "arithmetic", don't you get the basic gist of the Scriptures that tell us that love of our neighbor IS love of God? Over and over, we are told to love neighbor (whom we can see), which is identified with love of God. Thus, love of neighbor does NOT take away from love of God. That concept is KEY to understanding devotion to Mary or a saint. Honoring God's great creations is merely a means of honoring the creator Himself.

Here is an example that might help to understand this:

Say you and your wife go to your friend's to eat a dinner. She cooks a great lasagna. After eating it, your wife comments "that was a great lasagna, the best I have ever eaten". Do you jump up on a chair in defense of your friend, saying "HOW DARE YOU TAKE AWAY THE GLORY OF OUR FRIEND!!! YOU MUST GIVE HER ALL THE ATTENTION, NOT THE LASAGNA"!!! No one says such nonsense. By noting the creation (lasagna/Mary) we are merely praising the creator (friend/God), since the creation does not make itself nor does it add to the creation's work.

St. Montefort also makes these distinctions. NOTHING Mary does or did ADDS to what God has done - all that she has is FROM God. By praising Mary, we merely praise God, since Mary cannot add anything without God.

Regards

 

[Gary]

I think that the "new testament math" is such that an ounce of devotion directed towards any good cause is really can also directed to Jesus.

OK, let's get practical again. Do you think that prayers and consecration to Mary is a "good cause"? Explain.

Do you pray to Mary? Does she answer you? Do you pray to God? Does He answer you?

I am curious...