The catholics have divinized Mary

[Gary]

Who is the slave and to whom?

Drew, I also suggest you study what the Bible teaches about the concepts I have highlighted: "My Queen and my Mother, I give myself entirely to you ; and to show my devotion to you, I consecrate to you this day my eyes, my ears, my mouth, my heart, my whole being without reserve. Wherefore, good Mother, as I am your own, keep me, guard me, as your property and possession."

Do you think this is correct and Biblical? What does "I give myself entirely to you(Mary)" and "I am your(Mary's) own, keep me, guard me, as your(Mary's) property and possession." Does this concept occur anywhere else in the Bible?

Who said it?

 

[Gary]

You have tried to equate this consecration to Mary to "love your neighbor"... and I have debunked that analogy.

I have done no such thing Gary. I never stated that consecration to Mary was the same as "loving your neighbour". Please provide the post where I said this. I do not know whose argument you have debunked, but it certainly was not mine.

You said: "But when a Christian devotes himself to others, he is doing precisely what Jesus wants him to do."

... and precisely when/where/how does Jesus say you should "devote yourself to others"??

:D :D :D

 

[thessalonian]

You have tried to equate this consecration to Mary to "love your neighbor"... and I have debunked that analogy.

No, I did not equate them. I said one was in line with the other for Mary's will (since she is in heaven, a direct question you refused to give an answer for) is directly in line with God's and God's will is that we love our neighbor. You quite clearly don't understand what you think you are debunking.

 

[Gary]

Re: Who is the slave and to whom?

Drew, I also suggest you study what the Bible teaches about the concepts I have highlighted: "My Queen and my Mother, I give myself entirely to you ; and to show my devotion to you, I consecrate to you this day my eyes, my ears, my mouth, my heart, my whole being without reserve. Wherefore, good Mother, as I am your own, keep me, guard me, as your property and possession."

Do you think this is correct and Biblical? What does "I give myself entirely to you(Mary)" and "I am your(Mary's) own, keep me, guard me, as your(Mary's) property and possession." Does this concept occur anywhere else in the Bible?

Who said it?

..... I will give you a clue. The Greek word is doulos....

:wink:

 

[francisdesales]

Well, let's see. In Luke 14:26 Jesus said, and I quote.

"If any come to me, and hate not by comparison his father, and mother, and wife, and children, and brethren, and sisters, and yes and his own life also, he cannot be my disciple."

Now, it seems odd that JESUS wants me to be devoted to HIM and hate in comparison my own mother and yet be devoted to MARY. This JESUS never says anywhere.

Jesus said a lot of things. He also said:

"This is my commandment, that you love one another, as I have loved you" John 15:12

"These things I command you, that you love one another." John 15:17

"He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them; he it is that loveth me. And he that loveth me, shall be loved of my Father: and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him" John 14:21

And finally, how's this?

"The first commandment of all is, Hear, O Israel: the Lord thy God is one God. And thou shalt love the Lord thy God, with thy whole heart, and with thy whole soul, and with thy whole mind, and with thy whole strength. This is the first commandment. And the second is like to it: Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. There is no other commandment greater than these" Mark 12:30-31

Apparently, we are to also love our neighbors - which is obeying the commandment of God. Now, in the Protestant mindset, how do I love my neighbor and still love God with "my whole mind, my whole body, my whole spirit"? According to your theology, I can only love one thing. Thus, which command do you obey and which are you breaking? The one to love your neighbor or the one to love God with you whole heart and mind?

You are at a dilemna, because if you literally love God with your whole self, how can you obey the second commandment? Fortunately, Christianity doesn't take that view. By loving our neighbor, we ARE loving God.

What a church doesn't ridicule, it condones by its very silence.

It is not silent. Are you going to tell me you KNOW that the Church has not condemned devotions that forget that God is the center of our lives? Vatican 2 merely reiterated what the Council of Trent said about over doing such things.

The day I die will be the result of my sin and the sins of others----the very same reason the Pope died and Mary died (sinful wretch that she was).

Oh, you accidently included Mary in there as a "sinful wretch". I just wanted to point out that you are incorrect.

An atheist sees not GOD because he doesn't trust in answers to his prayers. I do not pray to Mary nor do I ask through prayer (since Mary is not around) for her to go speak to JESUS on my behalf.

How do you know Mary is not around? What biblical evidence do you have that tells us that Mary is not around?

I can and do speak to My HEAVENLY FATHER in the name of the LORD JESUS CHRIST and GOD always answers my prayers.

If you say so. Can you prove that you speak to your "Heavenly Father"?

I am not being silly, just trying to show you that your "discussions" with God are based on faith just as much as my asking for intercessions from the saints in heaven or speaking to Jesus Christ during the Mass is based on faith.

Regards

 

[Gary]

Jesus is Lord.... or is Mary your lord???

OK, on with the lesson.

So who is kyrious and who is doulos?

The NT records two confessions. One focused on His messiahship: "the messiah is Jesus" (ho Christos Iesous - Acts 18:5 Acts 18:28) or "Jesus is the Messiah" (Acts 9:22 Acts 17:3).

The other confession focused on His lordship: "Jesus is Lord" (Kyrios Iesous - Romans 10:9 1 Corinthians 12:3)

Remember what Paul said? He said: "No-one can say Kyrios Iesous (Jesus is Lord) except by the Holy Spirit" (1 Corinthians 12:3)

So Christians acknowledged the deity of Christ this way. (Refer to John 20:28)

Paul also reminds us that we only have ONE Lord. (1 Corinthians 8:5-6)

5For even if there are so-called gods, whether in heaven or on earth (as indeed there are many "gods" and many "lords"), 6yet for us there is but one God, the Father, from whom all things came and for whom we live; and there is but one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom all things came and through whom we live.

Now for the crucial link.....

When we say "Jesus is Lord" we are affirming his absolute supremacy.... over our lives as his willing slaves (doulos).

The simple but crucial point is that the two words "Lord" and "slave" are correlatives. Kyrios and doulos. The word 'slave' belongs naturally with the term 'Lord'.

How does James use these terms?

"James, a slave of God and of the Lord Jesus Christ" (James 1:1)

There are many other verses and parables which show Jesus as Lord and His followers as slaves.

How then can you "give myself entirely to you(Mary)" and say "I am your(Mary's) own, keep me, guard me, as your(Mary's) property and possession." when you are already a slave and the property and possession of Jesus?

I come to only one conclusion. You are either a slave to Mary.... or a slave to our Lord Jesus Christ.

I know which one I am. I say again: "Jesus is my Lord"

 

[Gary]

Apparently, we are to also love our neighbors - which is obeying the commandment of God. Now, in the Protestant mindset, how do I love my neighbor and still love God with "my whole mind, my whole body, my whole spirit"?

It says "Love your neighbor as yourself"... not as you love God!

So how do you do that? Easy. Jesus showed us how to do that. NOT by building statues to Mary and praying repetitive prayers to Mary. Read Luke 10:30-37 again.

Remember, Jesus said: "Go and do likewise"

 

[Drew]

Re: Jesus is Lord.... or is Mary your lord???

OK, on with the lesson

.
O teach me, great one........

 

[thessalonian]

I come to only one conclusion. You are either a slave to Mary.... or a slave to our Lord Jesus Christ.

This is because you don't understand New Testament Math. :-D How can one serve Christ by serving others. How can I be devoted to my wife when I am devoted to Christ? How can Christians be the light of the world when Christ is the light of the world? How can prophets and apostles be the foundation of the Church when Jesus is? It's all new testament math and you don't get it.

 

[thessalonian]

Apparently, we are to also love our neighbors - which is obeying the commandment of God. Now, in the Protestant mindset, how do I love my neighbor and still love God with "my whole mind, my whole body, my whole spirit"?

It says "Love your neighbor as yourself"... not as you love God!

So how do you do that? Easy. Jesus showed us how to do that. NOT by building statues to Mary and praying repetitive prayers to Mary. Read Luke 10:30-37 again.

Remember, Jesus said: "Go and do likewise"

Are you implying that loving your neighbor is not related to loving God? The two are inseparable I hate to tell you.

 

[Gary]

Again you miss it.

You are either a slave to our Lord Jesus Christ.... or a slave to Mary.

Your "consecration" to Mary is exactly the same as what a slave does to his lord. In the Bible, that Lord is God/Jesus. In Roman Catholic dogma, that lord is Mary. Hence you make Mary your lord.

Completely the opposite to what the Bible says.

:-?

 

[Gary]

Apparently, we are to also love our neighbors - which is obeying the commandment of God. Now, in the Protestant mindset, how do I love my neighbor and still love God with "my whole mind, my whole body, my whole spirit"?

It says "Love your neighbor as yourself"... not as you love God!

So how do you do that? Easy. Jesus showed us how to do that. NOT by building statues to Mary and praying repetitive prayers to Mary. Read Luke 10:30-37 again.

Remember, Jesus said: "Go and do likewise"

Are you implying that loving your neighbor is not related to loving God?

No.

The two are inseparable I hate to tell you.

Well I would love to tell you that the Bible and even Jesus has them as separate commands. Remember? Why would He do that? Why not just say: "Love your neighbor and God and Mary with all your heart, soul and mind and strength. And to prove that love, pray to Mary many, many times and build statues of her and consecrate yourself to Mary; become a slave of Mary...."

:o

Blessings

 

[Gary]

Mary is not my lord... Jesus is Lord!

I also want to be very clear about this. I have a vertical relationship with my Lord. He is Kyrios and I am doulos. That relationship is prior to the horizontal relationship of being a servant/slave to others. That relationship is secondary. But notice that in that secondary relationship, people that are served are alive, on earth.

As Christians, we are devoted to others as a direct result of being devoted to our Lord Jesus Christ.

When we serve each other, we are demonstrating and expressing our slavery to the Lord Jesus Christ (and not Mary!)

"On the contrary" says Paul, "they (the Macedonians) gave themselves (in glad service) first to the Lord (Kyrios) and then to us, in keeping with God's will" (2 Corinthians 8:5). First vertical, then horizontal. No mention of Mary!

 

[thessalonian]

Well I would love to tell you that the Bible and even Jesus has them as separate commands. Remember? Why would He do that? Why not just say: "Love your neighbor and God and Mary with all your heart, soul and mind and strength. And to prove that love, pray to Mary many, many times and build statues of her and consecrate yourself to Mary; become a slave of Mary...."

Now your being silly. I did not say the command to love God was to include loving others. I said it was inseparable from loving others. Are there some when you get to heaven that you will not have to love? I.e. Mary? I.e. Joseph, i.e. all in heaven.

By the way the Catholic Chruch does not require any of this.

No Catholic converts first to Mary Gary. Sorry. I agree that any service is in service to Christ. I believe I've already said that. Your arguement doesn't hold water. Your distortions are purly prejudice.

Sigh.

Blessings

 

[Gary]

Exposing the RC again and again...

Your arguement(sic) doesn't hold water.

I think it does. That why you have been unsuccessful in answering the argument that your love of Mary equates to your love of God. Your lord is Mary. My Lord is the Lord Jesus Christ. I have also shown (as many of us know) how the RC "devotion" leads to more than that. It leads to people focussing on Mary rather than Jesus .... in spite of your claims to the opposite. You can only have one Lord. You RCs have 2.

Your distortions are purly(sic) prejudice.

Sure. And your RC distortions are purely non-biblical. We have shown that many times. I don't attack you; I expose your man-made religion.

Blessings

 

[Gary]

Are there some when you get to heaven that you will not have to love? I.e. Mary? I.e. Joseph, i.e. all in heaven.

By the way the Catholic Chruch does not require any of this.

What do you mean? What part does the RCC not require? Are you suggesting that the RCC has redefined who you should love? I know many of your papal decrees have hurled curses at non RC believers. Is that what you are talking about? Your history is littered with the corpses of those who challenged the RC "church"... is that the non-love you are referring to? I doubt your dead popes will see those saints in heaven. Several of your popes are unrepentant murderers... I doubt they are in heaven!

In the second most important commandment "Love your neighbor as yourself", how did Jesus explain who your neighbor was and how that love was to be shown? Try Luke 10:30-37

Read that carefully. No "consecration" of your ears, eyes, heart to your dead neighbor. "Love your neighbor as yourself" is about helping those around you; believers and non-believers; those in need; those alive around you.

 

[ZeroTX]

I love how my post was ignored so that people could get back more quickly to hurling insults.

God bless,

Michael

 

[francisdesales]

It says "Love your neighbor as yourself"... not as you love God!

You are missing my point, Gary. You say a person cannot love Mary or honor her, because it takes away from loving God with our complete self. But with this mentality, if ALL my love goes strictly to God, how can I obey the commandment to love my neighbor? In your mindset, I have 10 units of love, all given to God, and thus have none to give to my neighbors. So, how can I obey Christ's commandment below to love my neighbor:

"The first commandment of all is, Hear, O Israel: the Lord thy God is one God. And thou shalt love the Lord thy God, with thy whole heart, and with thy whole soul, and with thy whole mind, and with thy whole strength. This is the first commandment. And the second is like to it: Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. There is no other commandment greater than these" Mark 12:30-31

How can I love myself or my neighbor if ALL my love units are given to God??? Your approach is incorrect. Jesus tells us that by loving our neighbor, by doing what Christ did, we ARE loving the Father in heaven. 1 John tells us in several places that we cannot possibly love our God if we do not love our neighbor. Thus, your formula approach to love fails.

By loving Mary or the saints or our brothers and sisters or our neighbors, we ARE loving God.

Regards

 

[francisdesales]

Re: Mary is not my lord... Jesus is Lord!

I also want to be very clear about this. I have a vertical relationship with my Lord. He is Kyrios and I am doulos.

The Scriptures have other things to say about this...

"He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him." 1 John 2:4

"If a man say, I love God, and hateth his brother, he is a liar" 1 John 4:20

By choosing not to love Mary, the mother of our Lord and Savior, your "vertical relationship" with God is cast in serious doubt, according to Scriptures.

Don't you subscribe to the following, or are you exempt from this?

"for, behold, from henceforth all generations shall call me blessed." Luke 1:48

Does your "vertical relationship" allow you to hate the mother of God?

Regards

 

[thessalonian]

Well done SFD except for a little emphasis which I would have added.

Hear, O Israel: the Lord thy God is one God. And thou shalt love the Lord thy God, with thy WHOLE heart, and with thy WHOLE soul, and with thy WHOLE mind, and with thy WHOLE strength.

With Gary's math there is none left for your neighbor as you have stated FD. However with the New Testament Math there is far greater love left by his grace working in and through us, giving us the ability to love of which we could do nothing without him. With him we have an infinte fountain of love and mercy at our disposal.