The Charismatic Church movement

[reba]

Yup Jesse

Linda just was beside her self if someone came to church in 'not their Sunday best" She made her feelings known... She and Jerry had not missed a Sunday in years and years... They left on Monday for a camping trip... out in the middle of no where the car broke down.. Linda was facing going to church in this small town in camping clothes or not going... She went..
We know this story because of the testimony and request for forgiveness she offered the following Sunday... God healed her heart..

 

[Willie T]

I agree with you definitely, we are conditioned to see the outside of a person first. Rich people go to rich churches, and if you're not rich, it is made apparent you do not belong there. The fruit they look for are clothes, car and snobbery etiquette.

I could be wrong and perhaps we're saying the same thing, but I see Fruit as Christ "in us", He is obviously the perfect example of One who has all the Fruit of the Spirit perfectly and this should be shining out from us.

This would be very difficult to fake for very long. A person being "nice" doesn't necessarily mean they bear the Fruit of the Spirit, it is all the attributes together, in addition to doing what it is Christ is doing. It should be seen as a gradual growth, right? We are not all at the same levels, but we can see in another person the growth they have done.

"You will know them by their love, one for another."

 

[Jesse]

who has laid hands on another and they received the baptism of the Holy Ghost?

Yes, those of us who are baptized had hands laid upon us and were also baptized in the Holy Ghost.

 

[Willie T]

Yup Jesse

Linda just was beside her self if someone came to church in 'not their Sunday best" She made her feelings known... She and Jerry had not missed a Sunday in years and years... They left on Monday for a camping trip... out in the middle of no where the car broke down.. Linda was facing going to church in this small town in camping clothes or not going... She went..
We know this story because of the testimony and request for forgiveness she offered the following Sunday... God healed her heart..

Oh, Wow! He sure knows where we live, doesn't He?

 

[jasonc]

Yes, those of us who are baptized had hands laid upon us and were also baptized in the Holy Ghost.

that isn't said during that, most that aren't pentacostal don't mention the Holy Ghost in that manner during water immersion. the Holy Spirit entered you upon salvation. its a different baptism then water baptism.

 

[Deborah13]

I don't know, but the Bible tells me I will know them by their Fruit.

Are you disagreeing?

I what think is that too many people think that they are qualified to be a 'fruit inspector'. They need to inspect their own fruit first. Many have their own bruises and worms they should take care of first.

Remember what Jesus said about taking the log out of your own eye before trying to remove the splinter in your brother's eye.
Clean the inside of your own cup before scrubbing your brother with bleach.

AND I personally know non-believers who have been married many years, raised wonderfully kind and generous children, have good moral ethics, give to the poor, and do volunteer work for the unfortunate. If I didn't know what their spiritual beliefs were, I would determine that they had much good fruit. If they told me that they were Christians it wouldn't surprise me if I just looked at their fruit.

 

[Kathi]

How would you define a believer who doesn't speak in tongues?

I would define a person who has repented of their sins and has asked Jesus Christ into their life a believer.The tongue issue does not come into that at all.It is a individual choice.It just happens to not be my choice.And as a Christian I have the right to choose.

 

[Jesse]

that isn't said during that, most that aren't pentacostal don't mention the Holy Ghost in that manner during water immersion. the Holy Spirit entered you upon salvation. its a different baptism then water baptism.

Most protestant churches will say, "I baptize you in the name of the Father, the Son and in the Holy Spirit".

Why is it this one gift have to be given to all when that is not at all what Corinthians says?

 

[Malachi]

Then you also have to see all the prophesies you love to look forward to soon coming with The Rapture, as "having failed", too. It's right there in the very same verse.

Willie,

It is in the context of spiritual gifts, that Paul says that the spiritual gift of prophesying (hence prophecies) will fail, stop, cease, come to an end. That verse cannot be misapplied to suggest that Bible prophecies per se will fail. That is not what Paul is saying at all.

Something which we all should keep in mind (not directed at Willie) is that Satan has been dividing Christians ever since God raised up the Church. Christ never spoke in tongues, and Paul told us clearly that he would rather speak five intelligible words of prophecy than 10,000 unintelligible words in tongues. Therefore God does not give a higher value to tongues than to the Gospel and Bible Truth. But today Satan has divided Christians into another two "camps" -- tongues and healings vs no tongues and healings (healings coming through prayer alone).

Our focus should be (1) to spread the Gospel to absolutely every sinner in the world (gift of evangelists), and (2) bring babes in Christ to maturity through the Word of God (gift of pastors and teachers). The prophets and apostles are right there in Scripture.

 

[Jesse]

I what think is that too many people think that they are qualified to be a 'fruit inspector'. They need to inspect their own fruit first. Many have their own bruises and worms they should take care of first.

Remember what Jesus said about taking the log out of your own eye before trying to remove the splinter in your brother's eye.
Clean the inside of your own cup before scrubbing your brother with bleach.

AND I personally know non-believers who have been married many years, raised wonderfully kind and generous children, have good moral ethics, give to the poor, and do volunteer work for the unfortunate. If I didn't know what their spiritual beliefs were, I would determine that they had much good fruit. If they told me that they were Christians it wouldn't surprise me if I just looked at their fruit.

You are talking about people categorizing others and placing labels on them. For instance, if one told me they were a Christian, I have already categorized them and a certain expectation of behavior and words should be forthcoming and if these are not in tune with my vision for what a Christian is - then I would question their Christianity because the fruit I think they should have is not up to par?

Is that what you're saying?

 

[reba]

Kathi Of course you have the right to choose.. ... I would like to understand why you seem to believe tongues is past but not the other gifts... What gives us humans the right to decide such?

Co 12:4 Now there are diversities of gifts, but the same Spirit.
1Co 12:5 And there are differences of administrations, but the same Lord.
1Co 12:6 And there are diversities of operations, but it is the same God which worketh all in all.
1Co 12:7 But the manifestation of the Spirit is given to every man to profit withal.
1Co 12:8 For to one is given by the Spirit the word of wisdom; to another the word of knowledge by the same Spirit;
1Co 12:9 To another faith by the same Spirit; to another the gifts of healing by the same Spirit;
1Co 12:10 To another the working of miracles; to another prophecy; to another discerning of spirits; to another divers kinds of tongues; to another the interpretation of tongues:
1Co 12:11 But all these worketh that one and the selfsame Spirit, dividing to every man severally as he will.

We can read these gifts are included in the passage the same conversation .. Why do we think we can 'edit' one out?

 

[Willie T]

Willie,

It is in the context of spiritual gifts, that Paul says that the spiritual gift of prophesying (hence prophecies) will fail, stop, cease, come to an end. That verse cannot be misapplied to suggest that Bible prophecies per se will fail. That is not what Paul is saying at all.

Something which we all should keep in mind (not directed at Willie) is that Satan has been dividing Christians ever since God raised up the Church. Christ never spoke in tongues, and Paul told us clearly that he would rather speak five intelligible words of prophecy than 10,000 unintelligible words in tongues. Therefore God does not give a higher value to tongues than to the Gospel and Bible Truth. But today Satan has divided Christians into another two "camps" -- tongues and healings vs no tongues and healings (healings coming through prayer alone).

Our focus should be (1) to spread the Gospel to absolutely every sinner in the world (gift of evangelists), and (2) bring babes in Christ to maturity through the Word of God (gift of pastors and teachers). The prophets and apostles are right there in Scripture.

I never even suggested that.
I told Kathi that if she was going to try to use that verse to say tongues had ceased, then she would, likewise, have to apply the same logic to everything else written in that same verse.

 

[Willie T]

Kathi Of course you have the right to choose.. ... I would like to understand why you seem to believe tongues is past but not the other gifts... What gives us humans the right to decide such?

Co 12:4 Now there are diversities of gifts, but the same Spirit.
1Co 12:5 And there are differences of administrations, but the same Lord.
1Co 12:6 And there are diversities of operations, but it is the same God which worketh all in all.
1Co 12:7 But the manifestation of the Spirit is given to every man to profit withal.
1Co 12:8 For to one is given by the Spirit the word of wisdom; to another the word of knowledge by the same Spirit;
1Co 12:9 To another faith by the same Spirit; to another the gifts of healing by the same Spirit;
1Co 12:10 To another the working of miracles; to another prophecy; to another discerning of spirits; to another divers kinds of tongues; to another the interpretation of tongues:
1Co 12:11 But all these worketh that one and the selfsame Spirit, dividing to every man severally as he will.

We can read these gifts are included in the passage the same conversation .. Why do we think we can 'edit' one out?

Especially when we may often boast about how effectively our "discernment" is working.

 

[gr8grace3]

I am sorry people have made you feel that way. imo, they are wrong. I think they put an importance on tongues as an evidence that one is baptized in the Holy Spirit because in scripture when one received the baptism of Holy Spirit scripture says they spoke with tongues and praised God. I don't see it as a must but as evidence. Personally, I think, there is way too much emphasis put on it. It is definitely not something someone should be arrogant about or think they are better than someone else or that because someone doesn't speak that they have not received the baptism.

gr8grace3
Act 2:38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.
Act 2:39 For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call.

I believe that every single believer has been given the gift of the Holy Spirit whether they operate in the supernatural power of the Holy Spirit given gifts or not.
I have not received anymore of the Holy Spirit than you have and I don't believe anyone else has more of the Holy Spirit than you do. But I know that some have been given the power to operate in supernatural gift/s.
If one does not believe they need to be saved they won't receive salvation. If one does not believe that they need the supernatural gifts they won't receive them.
The gifts have a Godly purpose, they are not toys or for entertainment. They are to glorify God. They are not so that someone can feel that they are special or somehow more Godly.
May the Lord Bless You

Act 2:38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.
Act 2:39 For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call

Peter was talking to his Jewish audience.

The Jews had the promise that God would put His Spirit IN them. Ezekiel 36:27. They knew that His Spirit came upon certain Jews at times, but they were never indwelt with the Spirit until Christ was glorified. Peter was telling them that the time is now that they would be indwelt with the Spirit if they changed their mind about Christ and believed on Him.

The Gift is the Holy Spirit. Acts 8:20, Acts 10:45 Acts 11:17, Heb 6:4

The gift of the indwelling of the Spirit came to the gentiles also but it was The Jews promise, and Peters focus here was his Jewish audience that had the Promise of the Holy Spirit. Their Promise was the Spirits indwelling, not supernatural powers of tongues and healings. In fact, scripture tells the Jews that they will not believe even if they see signs and wonders from the Gentiles.

Isaiah 28:11 (NASB95)
11 Indeed, He will speak to this people .....[the Jews.]

Through stammering lips and a foreign tongue,

1 Corinthians 14:21 (NASB95)
21 In the Law it is written, “By men of strange tongues and by the lips of strangers I will speak to this people, and even so they will not listen to Me,” says the Lord.

Tongues was a sign to the Jew that their Promise of the Gift of the Holy Spirit indwelling them was at hand. And tongues ceased when God went to the Gentiles after the fall of Jerusalem in 70 ad. "This people" rejected the Christ. When the time of the Gentiles is complete,God deals with "This/His people" again.

 

[Willie T]

You are talking about people categorizing others and placing labels on them. For instance, if one told me they were a Christian, I have already categorized them and a certain expectation of behavior and words should be forthcoming and if these are not in tune with my vision for what a Christian is - then I would question their Christianity because the fruit I think they should have is not up to par?

Is that what you're saying?

Almost every Mormon "looks" like (displays more expected, "fruit") more of a categorically defined Christian than most people in our own churches.

 

[Jesse]

Almost every Mormon "looks" like (displays more expected, "fruit") more of a categorically defined Christian than most people in our own churches.

Yes, but my discernment tells me otherwise.
:halo

 

[jasonc]

Most protestant churches will say, "I baptize you in the name of the Father, the Son and in the Holy Spirit".

Why is it this one gift have to be given to all when that is not at all what Corinthians says?

then why would jesus have them tarry for something they already were told to do? it was 50 days from the Lord's ascencion to pentacost. one might think some got save in that period and were baptized.

 

[Jesse]

then why would jesus have them tarry for something they already were told to do? it was 50 days from the Lord's ascencion to pentacost. one might think some got save in that period and were baptized.

Yes, but now the Holy Spirit enters every believer and we can operate in the supernatural gifts, just maybe not all of them, except maybe Jesus had them all, and as Willy brought up, there is no record of Jesus speaking in tongues.

 

[Rollo Tamasi]

What I always want to know from a 'fruit inspector', never heard that before Willie T , love it, is just how many bushels of good fruit must one show the inspector to receive their certification of approval.

It is common to go through a truckload and reach in and grab a few pieces from different parts of the load.
If they pass the test, the entire load is accepted.

 

[Willie T]

Yes, but my discernment tells me otherwise.
:halo

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