The Charismatic Church movement

[Willie T]

Oh, yeah we did discuss that, but I can't remember what you said. Can you repeat it here?

A person will have a difficult time faking Fruit for very long BUT a person can fake tongues all the time.

"Fruit" isn't the visible bark, or leaves, or height, or shape we see on, or of, a tree for the first few years after it is planted. And, neither is the fruit expression used in those "Ah Ha, Gottcha!" verses we try to use to expose people, the list given in the Bible. It is the RESULTS that evolve from the influence of a person over a period of time. (fruit doesn't grow for months, or even, years)

There is a highly abused Christian catch word. It is "discernment". And, we use it to justify all sorts of judgmental and prejudicial evaluations of people or actions we don't agree with. We often manage to "discern" anything we don't like in someone's demeanor or doctrine... or even, personality, as "BAD Fruit", long before the branches have even begun to show blossoms.

A young, tattooed, blue jean wearing preacher with long hair, usually doesn't even have to open his mouth to be declared a "False Teacher" and obviously, Bad Fruit, by any number of "Christians"............ despite the fact that he may be leading, literally, thousands to come to know Jesus.

Paul, himself, was considered by many to be a bearer of bad fruit in his day. But........

"Jesus teaches heresy and defies the laws of our religion", was the cry about our very Savior. Bad Fruit, must be the result. But who is that fruit? It's you and me.

 

[reba]

Kathi That is not much of an explanation ...it literally does not say tongues have ceased..


Do you believe the other gifts are 'in action"

 

[Kathi]

Kathi That is not much of an explanation ...it literally does not say tongues have ceased..


Do you believe the other gifts are 'in action"

That is the way I see it.I am sorry that you do not see it.

 

[Willie T]

I see all of this as tongues having ceased.

Then you also have to see all the prophesies you love to look forward to soon coming with The Rapture, as "having failed", too. It's right there in the very same verse.

 

[Jesse]

What I always want to know from a 'fruit inspector', never heard that before Willie T , love it, is just how many bushels of good fruit must one show the inspector to receive their certification of approval.

I don't know, but the Bible tells me I will know them by their Fruit.

Are you disagreeing?

 

[jasonc]

Then you also have to see all the prophesies you love to look forward to soon coming with The Rapture, as "having failed", too. It's right there in the very same verse.

touche, that and well the man who founded the modern rapture idea was a pentacostal.

 

[Jesse]

non-pentacostals don't seem to know that.

one doesn't pray to receive tounges, but to receive the Holy Ghost which is evidenced by the prayer language.

So those of us who don't speak in tongues do not have the Holy Ghost?

Therefore, we are not saved?

 

[reba]

Kathi Wanting to be clear you dont believe any of these gifts are for to day
1Co 12:9 To another faith by the same Spirit; to another the gifts of healing by the same Spirit;
1Co 12:10 To another the working of miracles; to another prophecy; to another discerning of spirits; to another divers kinds of tongues; to another the interpretation of tongues:
1Co 12:11 But all these worketh that one and the selfsame Spirit, dividing to every man severally as he will.


Believing this or not is not unto salvation and does not make one a better or more saved Christian then the other...

 

[jasonc]

So those of us who don't speak in tongues do not have the Holy Ghost?

Therefore, we are not saved?

its called the baptism of the Holy Ghost. pentacostal lingo is that one receives the holy ghost when its an immersion.

 

[reba]

So those of us who don't speak in tongues do not have the Holy Ghost?

Therefore, we are not saved?

I would strongly disagree

 

[jasonc]

I would strongly disagree

some oneness types teach other wise. I don't and neither does my church.

 

[reba]

I agree some do .. lots of folks teach lots of stuff.. ...

 

[reba]

http://www.gotquestions.org/miraculous-gifts.html

 

[Jesse]

"Fruit" isn't the visible bark, or leaves, or height, or shape we see on, or of, a tree for the first few years after it is planted. And, neither is the fruit expression used in those "Ah Ha, Gottcha!" verses we try to use to expose people, the list given in the Bible. It is the RESULTS that evolve from the influence of a person over a period of time. (fruit doesn't grow for months, or even, years)

There is a highly abused Christian catch word. It is "discernment". And, we use it to justify all sorts of judgmental and prejudicial evaluations of people or actions we don't agree with. We often manage to "discern" anything we don't like in someone's demeanor or doctrine... or even, personality, as "BAD Fruit", long before the branches have even begun to show blossoms.

A young, tattooed, blue jean wearing preacher with long hair, usually doesn't even have to open his mouth to be declared a "False Teacher" and obviously, Bad Fruit, by any number of "Christians"............ despite the fact that he may be leading, literally, thousands to come to know Jesus.

Paul, himself, was considered by many to be a bearer of bad fruit in his day. But........

"Jesus teaches heresy and defies the laws of our religion", was the cry about our very Savior. Bad Fruit, must be the result. But who is that fruit? It's you and me.

I agree with you definitely, we are conditioned to see the outside of a person first. Rich people go to rich churches, and if you're not rich, it is made apparent you do not belong there. The fruit they look for are clothes, car and snobbery etiquette.

I could be wrong and perhaps we're saying the same thing, but I see Fruit as Christ "in us", He is obviously the perfect example of One who has all the Fruit of the Spirit perfectly and this should be shining out from us.

This would be very difficult to fake for very long. A person being "nice" doesn't necessarily mean they bear the Fruit of the Spirit, it is all the attributes together, in addition to doing what it is Christ is doing. It should be seen as a gradual growth, right? We are not all at the same levels, but we can see in another person the growth they have done.

 

[Jesse]

I would strongly disagree

This is what I "thought" Jason was saying, I wanted to clarify with him if that is where he was going.

I agree with you.

 

[jasonc]

who has laid hands on another and they received the baptism of the Holy Ghost?

 

[Kathi]

Kathi Wanting to be clear you dont believe any of these gifts are for to day
1Co 12:9 To another faith by the same Spirit; to another the gifts of healing by the same Spirit;
1Co 12:10 To another the working of miracles; to another prophecy; to another discerning of spirits; to another divers kinds of tongues; to another the interpretation of tongues:
1Co 12:11 But all these worketh that one and the selfsame Spirit, dividing to every man severally as he will.


Believing this or not is not unto salvation and does not make one a better or more saved Christian then the other...

Did I post any of those verses?

Kathi Wanting to be clear you dont believe any of these gifts are for to day
1Co 12:9 To another faith by the same Spirit; to another the gifts of healing by the same Spirit;
1Co 12:10 To another the working of miracles; to another prophecy; to another discerning of spirits; to another divers kinds of tongues; to another the interpretation of tongues:
1Co 12:11 But all these worketh that one and the selfsame Spirit, dividing to every man severally as he will.


Believing this or not is not unto salvation and does not make one a better or more saved Christian then the other...

Do you mean do I think I have the gift of interpreting tongues?

 

[Jesse]

its called the baptism of the Holy Ghost. pentacostal lingo is that one receives the holy ghost when its an immersion.

How would you define a believer who doesn't speak in tongues?

 

[jasonc]

How would you define a believer who doesn't speak in tongues?

a believer that doesn't worship the same as I do.

 

[Willie T]

I don't know, but the Bible tells me I will know them by their Fruit.

Are you disagreeing?

We've gone over this, too. Disregarding the fact that the verse was talking about False Prophets, exactly what would you expect to see in the woman who sat in front of you, three seats to the left, in church this morning, for you to know she has The Holy Spirit....... or whatever it might be that you are evaluating her for?