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The Charismatic Church movement

Jesse said:
I believe all gifts are for today, too, and when I say all gifts I am not referring to how most people put the "all" on speaking in tongues. I know there are people who do speak in tongues today, but Paul did say that he desires other gifts above that of speaking in tongues. So, my prayers for myself have always revolved around praying for wisdom, edification, other gifts, I have once or twice asked God for the gift of tongues, but I do not put emphasis on it because of what Paul said.

I also don't believe all people will speak in tongues because it is a gift and not all receive every gift. I disregard most of what people say about how it is somehow proof that people are baptized in the Holy Spirit when they can speak in tongues - because it is a gift and not every person will receive this gift. In my own life I know I have gifts, I know I have the Holy Spirit, He makes Himself known to me, I know I am using my gifts in the way He has allowed.

Why does it seem that charismatics are so stuck on speaking in tongues? I do want to visit such a church, but it is a turn off for me sometimes because we all have gifts, God gives us these gifts, but somehow if a person doesn't speak in tongues we are less valuable or we lack in some area or we are not as "loved by God" as those who do speak in tongues - at least this is the attitude I have run across in my short time. What is the deal with it?

Thanks.
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I am sorry people have made you feel that way. imo, they are wrong. I think they put an importance on tongues as an evidence that one is baptized in the Holy Spirit because in scripture when one received the baptism of Holy Spirit scripture says they spoke with tongues and praised God. I don't see it as a must but as evidence. Personally, I think, there is way too much emphasis put on it. It is definitely not something someone should be arrogant about or think they are better than someone else or that because someone doesn't speak that they have not received the baptism.

gr8grace3
Act 2:38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.
Act 2:39 For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call.

I believe that every single believer has been given the gift of the Holy Spirit whether they operate in the supernatural power of the Holy Spirit given gifts or not.
I have not received anymore of the Holy Spirit than you have and I don't believe anyone else has more of the Holy Spirit than you do. But I know that some have been given the power to operate in supernatural gift/s.
If one does not believe they need to be saved they won't receive salvation. If one does not believe that they need the supernatural gifts they won't receive them.
The gifts have a Godly purpose, they are not toys or for entertainment. They are to glorify God. They are not so that someone can feel that they are special or somehow more Godly.
May the Lord Bless You



 
Willie T said:
My apologies for the rather direct way I responded to your initial post. I, undoubtedly used far too personal of a way of wondering why I was being asked about proving something about tongues. You didn't offend me. I was just surprised that someone thought I might be a crusader for speaking in tongues.

I do speak in tongues. Have for nearly thirty years. So, of course I believe it is for today. I've never seen anything that says ANY of the so-called, "gifts", were turned off. Most of what I read seems to indicate just the opposite. That's why I (and most of my church) very actively go around allowing God to use us to bring healing to even unbelieving total strangers.

I began speaking in tongues one night as I sat, alone, in my car outside a religious meeting, thoroughly angry at God and all the phonies back inside the auditorium who were "being taught" how to speak in tongues.

I won't tell you the content of the stream of hatefulness and hurt that came out of my mouth that night. Directed at both the people inside, and at God. Then, suddenly, I began to speak something that sounded like a cross between German and American Indian. For a long time (years) I saw no purpose in it. But, eventually, I realized something.

I am a high strung, very emotional person, and I used to "react" far more than I "reasoned." That was where I was that night. Just beside myself. But after speaking in tongues for several minutes, a calm peace came on me that I was honestly surprised and amazed to feel. And that is what tongues has done for me ever since. No "power", no particular "wisdom", or any sort of "revelations" or insights........ just peace, (not as the world gives, but His peace)

You called it "put together with scriptures." Well, "No", not in the way you mean....... that I could somehow "prove" anything to anyone. But, when things come on me to the point that I feel there is no way out, and nothing will relieve the roiling turmoil I sometimes sense, tongues seem to be "the way out" that has been provided for me. A short session of "babbling", as so many here like to call it, I always find myself returned to a calm rationality that my own emotions would almost never let me experience for maybe even, DAYS.

That seems to line up pretty well with at least two major scriptures, (peace given, and nothing placed on me that there isn't also a way out given), but that is all I can offer..... beyond, of course, the standard, pat references that you usually see written in some apologetic's post as a Biblical explanation.

Do I think what I experience is some sort of power "gifting?" No. I don't. In fact, other than the peace it instantly brings me, I would have to say that I see no additional benefit. At least in my life.

Again, sorry if I came off as blasting you. I really didn't mean it that way.
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Do you think all believers should have this gift?
 
Deborah13 said:
I am sorry people have made you feel that way. imo, they are wrong. I think they put an importance on tongues as an evidence that one is baptized in the Holy Spirit because in scripture when one received the baptism of Holy Spirit scripture says they spoke with tongues and praised God. I don't see it as a must but as evidence. Personally, I think, there is way too much emphasis put on it. It is definitely not something someone should be arrogant about or think they are better than someone else or that because someone doesn't speak that they have not received the baptism.

gr8grace3
Act 2:38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.
Act 2:39 For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call.

I believe that every single believer has been given the gift of the Holy Spirit whether they operate in the supernatural power of the Holy Spirit given gifts or not.
I have not received anymore of the Holy Spirit than you have and I don't believe anyone else has more of the Holy Spirit than you do. But I know that some have been given the power to operate in supernatural gift/s.
If one does not believe they need to be saved they won't receive salvation. If one does not believe that they need the supernatural gifts they won't receive them.
The gifts have a Godly purpose, they are not toys or for entertainment. They are to glorify God. They are not so that someone can feel that they are special or somehow more Godly.
May the Lord Bless You
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But you do see this as evidence, so if a person does not speak in tongues, then it is evident they do not have the Holy Spirit?

Is that correct?
 
Jesse said:
But you do see this as evidence, so if a person does not speak in tongues, then it is evident they do not have the Holy Spirit?

Is that correct?
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Not at all. As far as it is recorded, I don't remember ever seeing even one instance of Jesus speaking in tongues.
 
Willie T said:
Not at all. As far as it is recorded, I don't remember ever seeing even one instance of Jesus speaking in tongues.
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that being interpreted. my father why has thou forsaken me. unless that is recorded in Aramaic and translated to greek.
 
Jesse said:
Believe what?
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Only two things.... that Jesus is the son of God (in whatever Trinity understanding you might have), and that his death and resurrection provided us a way to return home.
 
Willie T said:
Only two things.... that Jesus is the son of God (in whatever Trinity understanding you might have), and that his death and resurrection provided us a way to return home.
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Ok.

I'm glad you answered my initial question about tongues, I think you're speaking the truth.

The evidence of the Holy Spirit is, we will know them by their Fruit, NOT we will know them by the tongues they speak.

That's how I see it anyway.
 
Jesse said:
But you do see this as evidence, so if a person does not speak in tongues, then it is evident they do not have the Holy Spirit?

Is that correct?
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No, no. I do believe it is evidence but there is not always this evidence.

I believe that all believers have received the gift of the Holy Spirit. But not all believers will operate in supernatural gifts. Either the Holy Spirit had other plans for them OR they don't believe so they don't receive.
Like I said to gr8grace3 , I don't believe that someone who operates in supernatural gift/s has anymore of the Holy Spirit than someone who doesn't. People have different functions in the Body of Christ.
 
Deborah13 said:
No, no. I do believe it is evidence but there is not always this evidence.

I believe that all believers have received the gift of the Holy Spirit. But not all believers will operate in supernatural gifts. Either the Holy Spirit had other plans for them OR they don't believe so they don't receive.
Like I said to gr8grace3 , I don't believe that someone who operates in supernatural gift/s has anymore of the Holy Spirit than someone who doesn't. People have different functions in the Body of Christ.
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I believe I have operated in supernatural gifts.
I do not believe the evidence of having these supernatural gifts is speaking in tongues. Tongues is just a gift like all the other gifts and not every person receives the same supernatural gifts.

Would you agree?
 
Jesse said:
I believe I have operated in supernatural gifts.
I do not believe the evidence of having these supernatural gifts is speaking in tongues. Tongues is just a gift like all the other gifts and not every person receives the same supernatural gifts.

Would you agree?
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Yes, I agree.

You know there are many kinds of evidence, the greatest being love, tongues is minor.
 
Jesse said:
Ok.

I'm glad you answered my initial question about tongues, I think you're speaking the truth.

The evidence of the Holy Spirit is, we will know them by their Fruit, NOT we will know them by the tongues they speak.

That's how I see it anyway.
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Well, we've already gone the "Fruit Inspector" route, so you already know how I feel about that.
 
Willie T said:
Well, we've already gone the "Fruit Inspector" route, so you already know how I feel about that.
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Oh, yeah we did discuss that, but I can't remember what you said. Can you repeat it here?

A person will have a difficult time faking Fruit for very long BUT a person can fake tongues all the time.
 
Jesse said:
Oh, yeah we did discuss that, but I can't remember what you said. Can you repeat it here?

A person will have a difficult time faking Fruit for very long BUT a person can fake tongues all the time.
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What I always want to know from a 'fruit inspector', never heard that before Willie T , love it, is just how many bushels of good fruit must one show the inspector to receive their certification of approval.
 
Jesse said:
Oh, yeah we did discuss that, but I can't remember what you said. Can you repeat it here?

A person will have a difficult time faking Fruit for very long BUT a person can fake tongues all the time.
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The majority of the proponents have 'learned' to the activity of speaking in tongues via their church social associations. I wouldn't term too much of that leaning as anything related to the Holy Spirit and every bit related to acceptable social behavior obtained by hanging with others of the same ilk.

I accept what they do, but see very little in the way of legitimacy. I have however witnessed and participated in the real deal as well and do not discount the phenomena as many do.
 
Deborah13 said:
What I always want to know from a 'fruit inspector', never heard that before Willie T , love it, is just how many bushels of good fruit must one show the inspector to receive their certification of approval.
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that is something I have never thought of. we cant really know . I have people I think that aren't saved. best just to pray for them.
 
reba said:
Kathi often you say you read the Scriptures literally ... where does this passage say tongues have ceased? If you say 1Co 13:10 But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away....Please tell me what to you understand to be perfect... Jesus was/is perfect before this passage was written....

1Co 13:8 Charity never faileth: but whether there be prophecies, they shall fail; whether there be tongues, they shall cease; whether there be knowledge, it shall vanish away.
1Co 13:9 For we know in part, and we prophesy in part.
1Co 13:10 But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away.
1Co 13:11 When I was a child, I spake as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child: but when I became a man, I put away childish things.
1Co 13:12 For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known.


totally agree :)
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I see all of this as tongues having ceased.
 
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