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The Charismatic Church movement

Kathi said:
If I entered a Church and I saw this I think I would go running the other way.
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Why? Very frankly, "Why?" Did you just listen to her speaking with God, or did you go ahead, and give heed to what she said about it in the rest of the video?
 
Malachi, in your opinion, what is Paul speaking of in 1 Corinthians 13:1 -- tongues of men and angels? What about 1 Corinthians 14:2 For he that speaketh in an [unknown] tongue speaketh not unto men, but unto God: for no man understandeth [him]; howbeit in the spirit he speaketh mysteries.

1 Corinthians 14:27-28 If any man speak in an [unknown] tongue, [let it be] by two, or at the most [by] three, and [that] by course; and let one interpret.

^ Consider that if the gift of tongues was exclusive to speaking and understanding foreign languages without understanding them, why did Paul mention the need for an interpreter?

Off to church. Glory to God. I was glad when they said unto me, let us go into the house of the Lord.
 
Rollo Tamasi said:
The problem with your statement here is that most people on this forum don't go to church, so it is not a reflection of the churches today.
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How would there be a problem with the statement?
The church is not only a building where Christians come to meeting during the week. The church is the body of faithful in Christ.
 
tinykitten said:
Maybe consider that what we read in threads of this nature is a reflection of individual personalities, beliefs, practices, that inhabit our churches. This fracture, if you will, has been extant in the faithful in Christ since denominations were first born.
Jesus was not a Christian.
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You should restate this so that people can understand what you are talking about.
And by the way, why wasn't Jesus a Christian?
Did he not believe in himself?
 
Rollo Tamasi said:
I'm not here to argue with you.
Other people do that.
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Your words say otherwise. In any case, I'm done. I'm not here to feed that kind of personality. I thought this was a forum for Christians to discuss openly and in the spirit of Christ. And that is what I shall pursue.
 
reba said:
Paul did
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No He didn't, not for today. He showed why tongues would end. And not be for today. Malachi laid out scriptures and reasoning for why it has ended and pointed out a few reasons why we should use our gift of discernment with tongues people.

You: "Paul did"

Malachi: Scriptures and obvious contradictions on this very thread.

And Reba, this business of tongues and disagreeing with it is not hateful on my part. I have not seen one person,like malachi laid out why it is not for today, lay out the scriptures and why they are for today. I am not mad at anyone or hate anyone for thinking they have tongues. I would just like someone to lay out their case for them from scriptures. I have studied the doctrine of tongues and why they have ended and it is very compelling. Can you lay out the doctrine of tongues(from scripture) and why they are for today and convince me that they are for today and have not ended? That is all I am asking. I hate no one for this. In fact I think it is a relatively light subject.
 
Disagreement is not an example of hate. Rather, it is a characteristic of healthy debate.

gr8grace3 said:
No He didn't, not for today. He showed why tongues would end. And not be for today. Malachi laid out scriptures and reasoning for why it has ended and pointed out a few reasons why we should use our gift of discernment with tongues people.

You: "Paul did"

Malachi: Scriptures and obvious contradictions on this very thread.

And Reba, this business of tongues and disagreeing with it is not hateful on my part. I have not seen one person,like malachi laid out why it is not for today, lay out the scriptures and why they are for today. I am not mad at anyone or hate anyone for thinking they have tongues. I would just like someone to lay out their case for them from scriptures. I have studied the doctrine of tongues and why they have ended and it is very compelling. Can you lay out the doctrine of tongues(from scripture) and why they are for today and convince me that they are for today and have not ended? That is all I am asking. I hate no one for this. In fact I think it is a relatively light subject.
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tinykitten said:
How would there be a problem with the statement?
The church is not only a building where Christians come to meeting during the week. The church is the body of faithful in Christ.
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tinykitten said:
Your words say otherwise. In any case, I'm done. I'm not here to feed that kind of personality. I thought this was a forum for Christians to discuss openly and in the spirit of Christ. And that is what I shall pursue.
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You are hiding something about yourself.
I can't view your profile and I can't start a conversation with you.
What are you afraid of?
 
Brother Mike said:
Speaking mysteries to God, and the language of Angels is not a foreign language. Paul called speaking in tongues praying in the Spirit, one form of prayer you dismiss.

Tongues shall pass away with knowledge, Both have surely come to pass in your case.

That which is perfect shall come is not the completed Word, but something else, but I guess we fail to compare other scriptures in this case.

A smart person would ask those of us that have been speaking in tongues for years how it works, and how to get that. Jesus said if you believe on my name, you shall speak in new tongues. Good enough for me, I went to seek.

Those that are the children of God are led by the Spirit of God, which takes direction and "Knowledge" of what to do. That means we need that word of wisdom and knowledge to operate.
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Mike,
You already know I will not talk down speaking in tongues but what you are suggesting is just what the issue is with the practice as used today. When Peter spoke everybody there heard him in their native tongue though he spoke Hebrew of more likely Koine Greek. God is omnipotent and does not need our help in performing miracles and speaking in Heavenly Tongues is just that, a miracle.

I have been offered lessons or coaching in speaking tongues and I have always caused the silly idea to be dropped with the same statement. "I am not blessed by God with that gift of Heaven but if God ever wants me to speak in tongues, there is no way that I could not speak in tongues." I have, actually, lived on this planet long enough that I can imitate what I have heard and I can cause any pentecostal to believe I am speaking in tongues except. possibly, an interpreter.

Now, why in the world would anyone need to be trained to receive a gift of God? The, very, idea that someone might need to be trained or coached denies or belittles the power of God. Speaking in tongues I do, of course, believe has passed, we need to learn other languages today to speak to others as Peter did. Speaking in Heavenly tongues I do not believe has died out but is common, I just am not blessed with that gift. But the Paul, forget the address, suggested we use it in our Prayers.

I don't want this to grow into an ugly fight but you need to understand that there are practices going on in the Church that are not Christian.
 
Deborah13 said:
Sometimes I think we can confuse prophecy, which I agree with it being for edification and individuals, but sometimes rather than being prophecy it is a word of knowledge or wisdom.
ie. You are thinking about someone you should witness to and you are praying about it. Someone else that doesn't know says something that confirms that for you.
Or this true story about Charles Spurgeon....a word of knowledge?
"A man was won for Christ because the preacher pointed to him and said, "There is a man sitting there who is a shoemaker; he keeps his shop open on Sundays; it was open last Sabbath morning. He took ninepence and there was fourpence profit on it; his soul is sold to Satan for fourpence." The man was afraid to go and hear Spurgeon again for fear he might tell the people more about him, for what he said at first was all true. But at last he came, and the Lord met with him.
indent.gif
One Sunday evening Mr. Spurgeon, pointing to the gallery, said, "Young man, the gloves you have in your pocket are not paid for." After the service a young fellow came beseeching him not to say anything more about it, and the circumstances led to his conversion."
http://www.spurgeon.org/misc/bio13.htm
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Those were similar in my thinking.

I would have definitely thought Charles S. had the gift of prophecy because I see the word of knowledge as being able to understand the Bible in deeper depth than the average person.

A person learns something everyday - cool!
 
Malachi said:
We can go on all day about how people have had experiences, and large groups of Christians believe in practising modern tongues. We can also go directly to the Word of God and have the Holy Spirit teach us from His own Word the truth about spiritual gifts (including tongues) (1 Corinthians chapters 12-14 KJV). Please read for yourself and confirm that this is so:
1. God does not want us to be ignorant about spiritual gifts (12:1)
2. There are diversities of gifts (12:4)
3. God is the One who gifts and operates the gifts (12:6)
4. Every Christian will have at least one gift (12:7)
5. Some of the gifts listed in 1 Corinthians are: word of wisdom, word of knowledge, faith, healing, working of miracles, prophecy,discerning of spirits, tongues, interpretation of tongues (languages) (12:8-10)
6. Other gifts (or repititions of those above) are further listed according to importance: apostles, prophets, teachers, miracles, healings, helps, governments, tongues (12:28).[Note: tongues are last in order of importance, apostles are first, so He says"First apostles"]
7. All Christians will not have all the gifts, therefore all will not speak in tongues:"Do all speak with tongues?" (12:29-30). [Right here Paul nullifies the Pentecostal/Charismatic teaching that all will speak in tongues].
8. We are to covet "the best" gifts (12:31).
9. Charity [agape love] is the best gift (13:13), and prophecies, tongues, and knowledge would cease -- come to an end when Scripture was complete(13:8-10).
10. Next comes prophesying (14:1). [All Scripture teaches that prophecy is direct revelation from God (2 Pet 1:21), and while the New Testament was being completed, God was giving direct revelations to the churches through prophets. We now have the written Word, and no true prophets.]
11. Unknown tongues are now discussed (14:2-28) [The Church at Corinth was a Greek-speaking church and Jews and Gentiles all spoke Greek. Therefore there was no need for foreign languages and some of the Corinthian Christians were abusing this gift]
12. Paul makes it quite clear that he would rather speak 5 words of prophecy than 10,000 words in tongues (14:19) [This nullifies the wrong emphasis on tongues given by Pentecostals/Charismatics]
13. Paul makes it quite clear that emphasis on tongues is childish (14:20).
14. Paul forbids women to speak in tongues publicly (14:34).
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1Co_14:39 Wherefore, brethren, covet to prophesy, and forbid not to speak with tongues.
 
Kathi said:
They are not popular?....figures.
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Yes, it does, people hate the light. Today, because of revisionists, the word, fundamentalist, has been changed in itś usage to mean violent people but that is not true of the Fundamental Christian. I consider myself to be a Fundamentalist and though I own a few guns I will not, nor have I since Vietnam, shoot a man except he forces my hand and then I no longer will shoot at anyone more than 10 feet away except I try the, almost always, futile shot at the knee.

Fundamental Christians follow the letter of scripture and what scares the World is that we follow the guide line of all of it and that offends the World. Just as scripture assures us, it is like a sharp two edged sword dividing the bone from the marrow, the followers of God from the followers of Satan.
 
Malachi said:
We can go on all day about how people have had experiences, and large groups of Christians believe in practising modern tongues. We can also go directly to the Word of God and have the Holy Spirit teach us from His own Word the truth about spiritual gifts (including tongues) (1 Corinthians chapters 12-14 KJV). Please read for yourself and confirm that this is so:
1. God does not want us to be ignorant about spiritual gifts (12:1)
2. There are diversities of gifts (12:4)
3. God is the One who gifts and operates the gifts (12:6)
4. Every Christian will have at least one gift (12:7)
5. Some of the gifts listed in 1 Corinthians are: word of wisdom, word of knowledge, faith, healing, working of miracles, prophecy,discerning of spirits, tongues, interpretation of tongues (languages) (12:8-10)
6. Other gifts (or repititions of those above) are further listed according to importance: apostles, prophets, teachers, miracles, healings, helps, governments, tongues (12:28).[Note: tongues are last in order of importance, apostles are first, so He says"First apostles"]
7. All Christians will not have all the gifts, therefore all will not speak in tongues:"Do all speak with tongues?" (12:29-30). [Right here Paul nullifies the Pentecostal/Charismatic teaching that all will speak in tongues].
8. We are to covet "the best" gifts (12:31).
9. Charity [agape love] is the best gift (13:13), and prophecies, tongues, and knowledge would cease -- come to an end when Scripture was complete(13:8-10).
10. Next comes prophesying (14:1). [All Scripture teaches that prophecy is direct revelation from God (2 Pet 1:21), and while the New Testament was being completed, God was giving direct revelations to the churches through prophets. We now have the written Word, and no true prophets.]
11. Unknown tongues are now discussed (14:2-28) [The Church at Corinth was a Greek-speaking church and Jews and Gentiles all spoke Greek. Therefore there was no need for foreign languages and some of the Corinthian Christians were abusing this gift]
12. Paul makes it quite clear that he would rather speak 5 words of prophecy than 10,000 words in tongues (14:19) [This nullifies the wrong emphasis on tongues given by Pentecostals/Charismatics]
13. Paul makes it quite clear that emphasis on tongues is childish (14:20).
14. Paul forbids women to speak in tongues publicly (14:34).
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A complete teaching on when they will pass away would be nice.

1Co 13:8 Charity never faileth: but whether there be prophecies, they shall fail; whether there be tongues, they shall cease; whether there be knowledge, it shall vanish away.
1Co 13:9 For we know in part, and we prophesy in part.
1Co 13:10 But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away.
1Co 13:11 When I was a child, I spake as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child: but when I became a man, I put away childish things.
1Co 13:12 For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known.

I know what I have believed about these scriptures for over 30 yrs. but I will quote another because he writes much more clearly than I do and his words should be respected and weighed more than mine.
He believed that the gifts had ceased but still some his insights into these scriptures is what I have believed.
"1 Corinthians 13:12 : Now - in this life, we see by means of a mirror reflecting the images of heavenly and spiritual things, εν αινιγματι, in an enigmatical manner, invisible things being represented by visible, spiritual by natural, eternal by temporal; but then - in the eternal world, face to face, every thing being seen in itself, and not by means of a representative or similitude."
Now I know in part - Though I have an immediate revelation from God concerning his great design in the dispensation of the Gospel, yet there are lengths, breadths, depths, and heights of this design, which even that revelation has not discovered; nor can they be known and apprehended in the present imperfect state. Eternity alone can unfold the whole scheme of the Gospel.

As - I am known - In the same manner in which disembodied spirits know and understand."
http://biblehub.com/commentaries/clarke/1_corinthians/13.htm
I have emboldened portions.
Only Moses has been said to have talked to God face to face. Even the ancient prophets saw through a glass darkly, in dreams, visions, whirlwinds, etc.
I have to shake my head sadly, when someone thinks in their imperfect state that their particular glass gives them a perfect image, a perfect revelation, a perfect interpretation, a perfect knowing of God's will or a perfect understanding of the things of God.

One time when speaking with a Baptist raised preacher someone asked him if he prayed in tongues (with the spirit, per Paul). He said that he did not. I asked him why not. He said because he knew the will of God when he prayed for someone or something so he didn't need to pray with the spirit just his understanding.
 
1. God does not want us to be ignorant about spiritual gifts (12:1) yup
2. There are diversities of gifts (12:4) yup
3. God is the One who gifts and operates the gifts (12:6) ok
4. Every Christian will have at least one gift (12:7) not exactly
1Co 12:7 But the manifestation of the Spirit is given to every man to profit withal.

5. Some of the gifts listed in 1 Corinthians are: word of wisdom, word of knowledge, faith, healing, working of miracles, prophecy,discerning of spirits, tongues, interpretation of tongues (languages) (12:8-10) yup
6. Other gifts (or repititions of those above) are further listed according to importance: apostles, prophets, teachers, miracles, healings, helps, governments, tongues (12:28).[Note: tongues are last in order of importance, apostles are first, so He says"First apostles"] ok
7. All Christians will not have all the gifts, therefore all will not speak in tongues:"Do all speak with tongues?" (12:29-30). [Right here Paul nullifies the Pentecostal/Charismatic teaching that all will speak in tongues]. right here i will tell everyone this is not a case with the Pentecostal/Charismatics i know been to church with lived with etc all my life including when i was a member of a Baptist church...
8. We are to covet "the best" gifts (12:31).yup
9. Charity [agape love] is the best gift (13:13), and prophecies, tongues, and knowledge would cease -- come to an end when Scripture was complete(13:8-10).
these scriptures do not say come to an end when Scripture was complete(13:8-10)
1Co 13:8 Charity never faileth: but whether there be prophecies, they shall fail; whether there be tongues, they shall cease; whether there be knowledge, it shall vanish away.
1Co 13:9 For we know in part, and we prophesy in part.
1Co 13:10 But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away.

10. Next comes prophesying (14:1).1Co 14:1 Follow after charity, and desire spiritual gifts, but rather that ye may prophesy. [All Scripture teaches that prophecy is direct revelation from God (2 Pet 1:21),
2Pe 1:21 For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost.
and while the New Testament was being completed, God was giving direct revelations to the churches through prophets. We now have the written Word, and no true prophets.]
I read nothing in this verse about the New Testament being completed

11. Unknown tongues are now discussed (14:2-28) [The Church at Corinth was a Greek-speaking church and Jews and Gentiles all spoke Greek. Therefore there was no need for foreign languages and some of the Corinthian Christians were abusing this gift]
12. Paul makes it quite clear that he would rather speak 5 words of prophecy than 10,000 words in tongues (14:19) [This nullifies the wrong emphasis on tongues given by Pentecostals/Charismatics]
13. Paul makes it quite clear that emphasis on tongues is childish (14:20).
14. Paul forbids women to speak in tongues publicly (14:34).

A few 'selected' verses from 1Cor14 ,,
1Co 14:15 What is it then? I will pray with the spirit, and I will pray with the understanding also: I will sing with the spirit, and I will sing with the understanding also.
1Co 14:15 What is it then? I will pray with the spirit, and I will pray with the understanding also: I will sing with the spirit, and I will sing with the understanding also.
1Co 14:18 I thank my God, I speak with tongues more than ye all:
1Co 14:20 Brethren, be not children in understanding: howbeit in malice be ye children, but in understanding be men.
1Co 14:21 In the law it is written, With men of other tongues and other lips will I speak unto this people; and yet for all that will they not hear me, saith the Lord.
1Co 14:22 Wherefore tongues are for a sign, not to them that believe, but to them that believe not: but prophesying serveth not for them that believe not, but for them which believe.


This verse does say tongues i believe it is a more general statement...
Co 14:34 Let your women keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted unto them to speak; but they are commanded to be under obedience, as also saith the law.


member reba
 
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tinykitten said:
Maybe consider that what we read in threads of this nature is a reflection of individual personalities, beliefs, practices, that inhabit our churches. This fracture, if you will, has been extant in the faithful in Christ since denominations were first born.
Jesus was not a Christian.
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When I came to believe the gifts were for today I was in a church that said they had been done away with. They were never brought up in church at all. I knew nothing about the gifts and had no bias one way or the other. Until one day I over heard a conversation and these verses read in the church's bookstore....

All the different denominational beliefs, every Christian forum, and these threads all bear witness to the Fact that we only know in part, we see through a glass darkly. Until we come face to face with our God we will continue to know in part.
 
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