Jesse i have said the opposite.. Please show me my post saying such...
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Desire to be a vessel of honor unto the Lord Jesus Christ?
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Taking the time to pray? Christ is the answer in times of need
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Depending upon the Holy Spirit for all you do?
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How are famous preachers sometimes effected by sin?
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The Charismatic Church movement
- Thread starter Kathi
- Start date
This paragraph is about the most precious thing i have read in a long time... What a beautiful picture of our Comforter...
Joh 14:26 But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.
Joh 14:27 Peace I leave with you, my peace I give unto you: not as the world giveth, give I unto you. Let not your heart be troubled, neither let it be afraid.
Yes,the Holy Spirit is God
As the Holy Spirit lives in the believer, He brings about some life-changing results:
1) The indwelling Spirit comes to a soul dead in sin and creates new life (Titus 3:5). This is the new birth Jesus spoke of inJohn 3:1–8.
2) The indwelling Spirit confirms to the believer that he belongs to the Lord and is an heir of God and fellow-heir with Christ (Romans 8:15–17).
3) The indwelling Spirit installs the new believer as a member of Christ’s universal church. This is the baptism of the Spirit, according to1 Corinthians 12:13.
4) The indwelling Spirit gives spiritual gifts (God-given abilities for service) to the believer to edify the church and serve the Lord effectively for His glory (1 Corinthians 12:11).
5) The indwelling Spirit helps the believer understand and apply the Scripture to his daily life (1 Corinthians 2:12).
6) The indwelling Spirit enriches the believer’s prayer life and intercedes for him in prayer (Romans 8:26–27).
7) The indwelling Holy Spirit empowers the yielded believer to live for Christ to do His will (Galatians 5:16). The Spirit leads the believer in paths of righteousness (Romans 8:14).
8) The indwelling Spirit gives evidence of new life by producing the fruit of the Spirit in the believer’s life (Galatians 5:22–23).
9) The indwelling Spirit is grieved when the believer sins (Ephesians 4:30), and He convicts the believer to confess his sin to the Lord so that fellowship is restored (1 John 1:9).
10) The indwelling Spirit seals the believer unto the day of redemption so that the believer’s arrival in the Lord’s presence is guaranteed after this life (Ephesians 1:13–14).
Read more:http://www.gotquestions.org/indwelling-of-the-Holy-Spirit.html#ixzz3LwEuN87b
As the Holy Spirit lives in the believer, He brings about some life-changing results:
1) The indwelling Spirit comes to a soul dead in sin and creates new life (Titus 3:5). This is the new birth Jesus spoke of inJohn 3:1–8.
2) The indwelling Spirit confirms to the believer that he belongs to the Lord and is an heir of God and fellow-heir with Christ (Romans 8:15–17).
3) The indwelling Spirit installs the new believer as a member of Christ’s universal church. This is the baptism of the Spirit, according to1 Corinthians 12:13.
4) The indwelling Spirit gives spiritual gifts (God-given abilities for service) to the believer to edify the church and serve the Lord effectively for His glory (1 Corinthians 12:11).
5) The indwelling Spirit helps the believer understand and apply the Scripture to his daily life (1 Corinthians 2:12).
6) The indwelling Spirit enriches the believer’s prayer life and intercedes for him in prayer (Romans 8:26–27).
7) The indwelling Holy Spirit empowers the yielded believer to live for Christ to do His will (Galatians 5:16). The Spirit leads the believer in paths of righteousness (Romans 8:14).
8) The indwelling Spirit gives evidence of new life by producing the fruit of the Spirit in the believer’s life (Galatians 5:22–23).
9) The indwelling Spirit is grieved when the believer sins (Ephesians 4:30), and He convicts the believer to confess his sin to the Lord so that fellowship is restored (1 John 1:9).
10) The indwelling Spirit seals the believer unto the day of redemption so that the believer’s arrival in the Lord’s presence is guaranteed after this life (Ephesians 1:13–14).
Read more:http://www.gotquestions.org/indwelling-of-the-Holy-Spirit.html#ixzz3LwEuN87b
Yes,all are indwelt with the Holy Spirit when they believe. And that was what Acts 2:38;39 are speaking of. That promise. Not the supernatural gifts of the Holy Spirit in these specific verses.
This is what I believe 1 Cor 13:10 is saying.
1 Cor 13:10
“But when the completed [Canon] has come, the partial [temporary spiritual gifts] will cease.”
smaller
Member
Perhaps we'll have to strike this statement from the canon?
1 Corinthians 14:39
Wherefore, brethren, covet to prophesy, and forbid not to speak with tongues.
The nation of Israel still had around 15 years before 70 ad when Paul penned this verse. Tongues were still valid at this time.
smaller
Member
Using that methodology we might consider striking a lot of Paul's words.
This one seems to have been overlooked:
Love never fails; but if there are gifts of prophecy, they will be done away; if there are tongues, they will cease; if there is knowledge, it will be done away.
smaller
Member
When we are Perfect/Changed I'd expect that to be true and no longer needed. I'd also agree with the superiority by priority of love. Just wonder sometimes what happened amongst the warring tribes of christianity who all seem quite intent on trying to eternally damn each others in favor of their respective sects positions. Quite sad really.
Deborah13
Member
I agree with you, this verse is not talking about supernatural gifts. It does not say 'gifts plural' it is gift 'singular'.
Sometimes verses are used to support a belief when they shouldn't be. It becomes a common support verse. So what I think just happened between you and me is that when I mentioned this verse, using it correctly, you seemed to have assumed that I was using it to support the idea that the gifts are for today. But that is not why I quoted it.
I was simply stating that I believe that all believers receive the same Holy Spirit in the same way, when they believe.
I also believe that because some have been given the power to work supernatural healing, word of knowledge, etc. does not mean they have more of the Holy Spirit. They are just being used differently in the Body. It is because they believe and accept it.
The Father does not force a person to be saved and He doesn't force them to receive all that He has for them.
I believe that believers will receive what they believe, desire, and is in the will of the Father. They believe in their salvation and receive it, they believe in the Holy Spirit and receive Him, and some will believe in the supernatural gifts and if it is the Father's will they will receive.
But that isn't really the question. The question is, did God stop using believers to edify the church by the use of supernatural gifts?
I understand. That is what I heard in my Baptist church's bookstore in 1977 when Larry was telling those young men that the gifts were not for today.
Does/has any man know/n all the things of God?
Since you, or any other Christian, having come face to face with the Canon, know (all things about God) even as He knows them/you?
If you can answer either of these questions with a 'yes' I would very much like to hear your explanation for the 'yes' answer.
Why does the average church (or church member) fear so much, the normal, everyday things that simply were just plain old Christianity from the very beginning? As has been shown, time and time again, there is not a word in the Bible addressing these things, EXCEPT that "all these things would continue to follow all those who believed."
Doulos Iesou
Member
This is such a strange argument to me.
For now we see in a mirror dimly, but then face to face. Now I know in part; then I shall know fully, even as I have been fully known. 1 Corinthians 13:12 (ESV)
We shall fully know when the téleios comes, which this word comes from the root "tel," which means reaching the end of. It is in a sense of perfection that is reached at the end of something, full maturation, complete, perfect. This could potentially mean the Canon, but the Canon didn't come together really until the Synod of Hippo 393 AD.
That means that people would still be speaking tongues and prophesying until that time. This certainly extends beyond the time of the Apostles, but the purpose of the gifts were never to be for revelation, but rather the up-building of the church, which is still necessary today.
The Perfect coming of course is Jesus, and it is then that we know fully, as there are many things we now do not know. The point of Paul's argument in 1 Corinthians 13 which is still relevant today, is that in eternity, love will be the thing that endures and these spiritual gifts will cease and pass away. That to love each other is more important because these divisions and arguments over spiritual gifts are temporary things that really are supposed to be used in love, in the spirit of building one another up. That's why Paul put this argument here.
Doulos Iesou
Member
Yes, but the Holy Spirit is the one who apportions the gifts. Which is where the interpretation derives from.
Agree with much of what you say here. The Church still is in need of edification, perhaps more than ever, so I don't see why God would withhold these gifts.
smaller
Member
Speaking from the more conservative side of the ledgers and having participated in the charismatic movement many long years ago, believers have every right to avoid the flakeyness that exists in the charismatic camps.
I think anyone who has been exposed to the participants in charismania quickly find out that God is supposedly speaking to all of them continually and promoting every sort of imaginary discourses, little of which can be cohesive, remedied to scripture or even beneficial. I no longer entertain the religiously bloated egos who think they control God in Christ by summoning or conjuring up the commands or promises of wealth or health or casting out demons they THINK they see in the Word. Pseudo religious magicians don't interest me nor do phony actors or even deeply sincere hopes of participants that never transpire. And some of their activities I have had to outright confront when their grandiose extensions infringe to attempt to gather into their various cults via manipulations. This would be things like showing up at funerals to tell family members that their loved one who had just died is in hell and they will be too unless the remainders believe 'like they do.' I have ran them out the door on more than one occasion.
Religious Vultures.
IF it ain't real it just ain't real. The space in general is filled with rovers who operate by various supposedly God given individual dictates, which can also be quite interesting. Some are forever chasing the next supposed wave of the Spirit in the next charismatic group setup down the block. The church I was mainly involved in was WoF, which anyone who has studied their positions and observed their actions KNOW they are full of manipulation, lies and outright extortion for cash in the name of God. The local church eventually broke apart when both the pastor and his wife were publicly outed for having affairs with other members and they divorced. When I left I DID hear Gods Word to leave before any of that transpired, and then had members come and threaten my eternal fate if I didn't return. I just had to shake my head at their severe deceptions and the power mongering that the space seems to convey to the participants.
Some of the biggest internal wolves have entirely captured the space by my sight. But the same observations can be gleaned from a lot of christian sectarianism, unfortunately.
It was just too off the charts craziness for me personally to be involved in and I had to move on to what I considered to be more solid scriptural ground. I put away my learned practice of tongues as well in favor of speaking and learning with understanding being a priority. Sometimes you just have to follow your own heart, where it is led.
Nevertheless I still have many friends in the charismatic camps and yes, they do hear from God and I accept what they do to some extents. Some are very sincere and deeply motivated for Christ, as I am as well. I just learned better things once I departed the camp.
What I did learn there is that everyone pretends to love you only when you knuckle down under what they think or do and their authority. I have permanently departed any of that form of love or faith.
If the context of that verse was our heavenly state of being perfected, Paul wouldn't of just addressed 3 parts of the Spiritual gifts. All of them would cease.
He specifically mentions 1) prophecy 2)Knowledge and 3)tongues. 1 Cor 13:8 "Parts"
1) ~~A "part" was the spiritual gift of prophecy.
2)~~For we know in Part~~Paul knows a part, John knows a part,James knows a part,Peter knows a part and so on. 1 Cor 13:9
1 Cor 3:10~~When all the Parts are put together it is complete....the Canon. 96 ad(The Greeks wisdom)
Then He goes onto tongues:
3)~~1 Cor 3:11~~ Paul deals with tongues~~When I was a child, I used to speak like a child, think like a child, reason like a child; when I became a man, I did away with childish things.
This reveals the temporary nature of tongues. Paul uses the metaphor of his childhood for good reason. Because tongues are for the unbeliever and that message is the "milk" of the word.
1 Cor 1:23~~but we preach Christ crucified, to Jews a stumbling block and to Gentiles foolishness,
1 Cor 1:22~~For indeed Jews ask for signs and Greeks search for wisdom;
1 Cor 14:22~~So then tongues are for a sign, not to those who believe but to unbelievers; but prophecy is for a sign, not to unbelievers but to those who believe.
Specifically to unbelieving Jews
1 Cor 14:21~~In the Law it is written, "BY MEN OF STRANGE TONGUES AND BY THE LIPS OF STRANGERS I WILL SPEAK TO THIS PEOPLE[Jews], AND EVEN SO THEY WILL NOT LISTEN TO ME," says the Lord.
Isaiah 28:11 (NASB95)
11 Indeed, He will speak to this people
Through stammering lips and a foreign tongue,
Isaiah 28:14 (NASB95)
14 Therefore, hear the word of the Lord, O scoffers,
Who rule this people who are in Jerusalem,
And "This people" the Jews, went under the 5th cycle of discipline in 70ad at the fall of Jerusalem.
Deuteronomy 28:49–67 (NASB95)
49 “The Lord will bring a nation against you from afar, from the end of the earth, as the eagle swoops down, a nation whose language you shall not understand,
50 a nation of fierce countenance who will have no respect for the old, nor show favor to the young.
51 “Moreover, ...
Doesn't it then follow we have no knowledge it has been done away... right?
smaller
Member
Perhaps you didn't understand what I said. I am not and can not be against legitimate faith experiences and the seeking of them, and that includes tongues and prophesy. But these avenues are NOT meant for everyone by a long shot.
What may constitute legitimacy deserves continual close attentions because there are also spiritual entertainments of the ILL kind that also transpire in such engagements.
It's not for the weak and there is 'legitimate' always present danger in opening ones self. I have yet to see any charismatic group that operates under the dictates that Paul laid out, so I can't really say I've seen the oversight needed or the decently and in order as prescribed to the early churches. Most of these sects operate under some really weird and singular individual authority in almost every case.
Elders 'plural' are to judge what is being said, and the reason they are to judge is that 'other spirits' do come in to the participants both to test and to tempt those who engage.
On this count most of what I've seen in charismania fails miserably. How many times for example have you sat in a charismatic assembly and heard some charismatic RCC member start channeling supposed mary spirit? I've heard it DOZENS of times and every time it went unchecked by anyone.
How many times have you sat under the false pretenses of health and wealth these people promote? Again, for me this would number in the thousands of engagements. And most of what they claim are just outright lies, manipulation and deception for their own profits.
I just couldn't stomach the exposure to the unchecked nonsense. It actually makes me ill to even think about it. And though I have many regrets for even setting foot in the space, I did also learn much that helped me sort through things.