The Dead, the Prophets, the Saints & .......

[whirlwind]

• * Revelation 11:16 And the nations were angry, and Thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead that they should be judged, and that Thou shouldest give reward unto Thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear Thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth."

The wrath of God is after the tribulation (deception) of Satan. Then the dead, the spiritually dead, will be judged. The prophets, saints and...those that fear (revere) His name are given their reward. Who is destroyed? "Those which destroy the earth."

Tree huggers must love that verse. But, is that what is meant? "Earth" is symbolic of people....just as "sea" is symbolic of masses of humanity. What is being said is....the false prophets, false teachers...the antichrists, that mislead (destroy people) will themselves be destroyed.

They that are mislead (the earth) are the spiritually dead that will be judged.

 

[Benoni]

I do not believe in either pre, post or mid tribulation, or in anything that would cause the Church of Christ to ESCAPE tribulation anywhere in the scriptures. In fact, I fail to see that the time of great tribulation will cause any of us any harm at all, in fact, quite the contrary.

When the Lord does come to judge the earth, He will do so TO SET CREATION FREE. The entire gamut of what modern Christianity has taught to date, and including the past 250 years, has all been based upon one single premise. That premise is that God is angry. God was taken by surprise when Adam ate of the forbidden tree, which tree God made anyways, and ever since God has been trying to figure out who will and who won't accept His sacrificed offering through the body of our Lord Jesus Christ.

The whole point though is not that God may or may not be mad, or that there will be great tribulation and rapture escapism theories. The whole point is that God subjected all of creation to the bondage of corruption to one day set all creation free again by THE MANIFESTATION OF THE SONS OF GOD.

Acts 14:22 (WE) They talked to the disciples to help them. They told them to keep on believing. They said, `We must go through much trouble to get into God's kingdom.'

Acts 14:22 (MSG) 21-22After proclaiming the Message in Derbe and establishing a strong core of disciples, they retraced their steps to Lystra, then Iconium, and then Antioch, putting muscle and sinew in the lives of the disciples, urging them to stick with what they had begun to believe and not quit, making it clear to them that it wouldn't be easy: "Anyone signing up for the kingdom of God has to go through plenty of hard times

Acts 14:22 (YLT) 22confirming the souls of the disciples, exhorting to remain in the faith, and that through many tribulations it behoveth us to enter into the reign of God,

Acts 14:22 (HCSB) 22 strengthening the hearts [a] of the disciples by encouraging them to continue in the faith, (A) and by telling them, "It is necessary to pass through many troubles (B) on our way into the kingdom of God."


Acts 14:22 (WYC) 22 confirming the souls of the disciples, and admonishing, that they should dwell in the faith, and said [and saying], That by many tribulations it behooveth us to enter into the kingdom of heavens.

 

[whirlwind]

I do not believe in either pre, post or mid tribulation, or in anything that would cause the Church of Christ to ESCAPE tribulation anywhere in the scriptures. In fact, I fail to see that the time of great tribulation will cause any of us any harm at all, in fact, quite the contrary.

As we aren't appointed to wrath then it means we are either gathered while His wrath is poured or it will be as when the three Hebrew children were in the fire....in it and yet not harmed.

When the Lord does come to judge the earth, He will do so TO SET CREATION FREE. The entire gamut of what modern Christianity has taught to date, and including the past 250 years, has all been based upon one single premise. That premise is that God is angry. God was taken by surprise when Adam ate of the forbidden tree, which tree God made anyways, and ever since God has been trying to figure out who will and who won't accept His sacrificed offering through the body of our Lord Jesus Christ.

I don't think God was at all surprised...disappointed but not surprised. That event set up the great battle that goes on until the end of days. It is what this age is about.

The whole point though is not that God may or may not be mad, or that there will be great tribulation and rapture escapism theories. The whole point is that God subjected all of creation to the bondage of corruption to one day set all creation free again by THE MANIFESTATION OF THE SONS OF GOD.

Acts 14:22 (WE) They talked to the disciples to help them. They told them to keep on believing. They said, `We must go through much trouble to get into God's kingdom.'

Acts 14:22 (MSG) 21-22After proclaiming the Message in Derbe and establishing a strong core of disciples, they retraced their steps to Lystra, then Iconium, and then Antioch, putting muscle and sinew in the lives of the disciples, urging them to stick with what they had begun to believe and not quit, making it clear to them that it wouldn't be easy: "Anyone signing up for the kingdom of God has to go through plenty of hard times

Acts 14:22 (YLT) 22confirming the souls of the disciples, exhorting to remain in the faith, and that through many tribulations it behoveth us to enter into the reign of God,

Acts 14:22 (HCSB) 22 strengthening the hearts [a] of the disciples by encouraging them to continue in the faith, (A) and by telling them, "It is necessary to pass through many troubles (B) on our way into the kingdom of God."


Acts 14:22 (WYC) 22 confirming the souls of the disciples, and admonishing, that they should dwell in the faith, and said [and saying], That by many tribulations it behooveth us to enter into the kingdom of heavens.

Not all will accept that freedom of creation. Every knee will bow at the beginning...but not through the end, of the millennium.

 

[Ret]

• * Revelation 11:16 And the nations were angry, and Thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead that they should be judged, and that Thou shouldest give reward unto Thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear Thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth."

The wrath of God is after the tribulation (deception) of Satan. Then the dead, the spiritually dead, will be judged. The prophets, saints and...those that fear (revere) His name are given their reward. Who is destroyed? "Those which destroy the earth."]

So, what does it mean to be spiritually DEAD...?

The righteous - Christ is IN YOU through the SPIRIT - at the same time the BODY is DEAD to the flesh and it's lust.

The wicked - body, soul, and spirit, DEAD in trespasses and sins - Ephesians 6:1

Both the righteous and the wicked are JUDGED in the flesh as men...God is not saving the FLESH of either of them. Granted the sins of the righteous go before them to JUDGMENT, but the sins of the wicked follow them. I Timothy 5:24

Romans 8:10 If Christ is in you, though the body is dead because of sin,
yet the spirit is alive because of righteousness.

1 Peter 4:6 For the gospel has for this purpose been preached even to those who are dead, that though they are judged in the flesh as men, they may live in the spirit according to the will of God.

Romans 14:7-9
7 For not one of us lives for himself, and not one dies for himself;
8 for if we live, we live for the Lord, or if we die, we die for the Lord;
therefore whether we live or die, we are the Lord's.
9 For to this end Christ died and lived again, that He might be
Lord both of the dead and of the living.
NASU

 

[whirlwind]

• * Revelation 11:16 And the nations were angry, and Thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead that they should be judged, and that Thou shouldest give reward unto Thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear Thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth."

The wrath of God is after the tribulation (deception) of Satan. Then the dead, the spiritually dead, will be judged. The prophets, saints and...those that fear (revere) His name are given their reward. Who is destroyed? "Those which destroy the earth."]

So, what does it mean to be spiritually DEAD...?

The righteous - Christ is IN YOU through the SPIRIT - at the same time the BODY is DEAD to the flesh and it's lust.

The wicked - body, soul, and spirit, DEAD in trespasses and sins - Ephesians 6:1

Both the righteous and the wicked are JUDGED in the flesh as men...God is not saving the FLESH of either of them. Granted the sins of the righteous go before them to JUDGMENT, but the sins of the wicked follow them. I Timothy 5:24

Along with that group of the spiritually dead, (righteous and wicked) there is another....the elect or spiritually living. They are already judged, justified, [Romans 8:30]. They are those that return and discern.....

• * Malachi 3:17-18 And they shall be Mine, saith the LORD of hosts, in that day when I make up My jewels; and I will spare them, as a man spareth his own son that serveth him. Then shall ye return, and discern between the righteous and the wicked, between him that serveth God and him that serveth Him not

.

Romans 8:10 If Christ is in you, though the body is dead because of sin,
yet the spirit is alive because of righteousness.

1 Peter 4:6 For the gospel has for this purpose been preached even to those who are dead, that though they are judged in the flesh as men, they may live in the spirit according to the will of God.

Romans 14:7-9
7 For not one of us lives for himself, and not one dies for himself;
8 for if we live, we live for the Lord, or if we die, we die for the Lord;
therefore whether we live or die, we are the Lord's.
9 For to this end Christ died and lived again, that He might be
Lord both of the dead and of the living.
NASU

He is the Lord of all...dead and living. It's just that the dead don't know that.

Above you wrote....."God is not saving the FLESH of either of them." You hinted at that in a previous post and I'm not certain what you mean. Do you believe some will be in flesh and others not when this age ends?

 

[Ret]

Along with that group of the spiritually dead, (righteous and wicked) there is another....the elect or spiritually living. They are already judged, justified, [Romans 8:30]. They are those that return and discern.....

Ok...Romans 8:
v28 says 'to those who are called according to His purpose'...what purpose >
30 ...predestined > called > justified > glorified (GLORIFIED..? think twice)

Jesus tells Peter what will happen to him at the end of his life. John 21:18,19 gives the account of this in v19...'kind of death he (Peter) would glorify God.' Previously in John 12 Jesus gives an account of His own life saying...v23 The hour has come for the Son of Man to glorified. v24 Truly, truly, I say to you, unless a grain of wheat falls into the earth and dies, it remains alone; but if it dies, it bears much fruit.' later in the chapter this is stated again in another format... 'And I, if I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all men to Myself. v33 But He was saying this to indicate the kind of death by which He was to die. NASU

WW...this was quite a shock - to understand the death of my flesh is what brings glory to God. I was raised to think it was all my 'good works' and 'self-less behavior, giving', even that of performing miracles, that brought glory to God. Churches today still preach 'give, give, give' and you bring glory to God. Ok for kids maybe, but to the adult that's like having eyes but see not!

• * Malachi 3:17-18 And they shall be Mine, saith the LORD of hosts, in that day when I make up My jewels; and I will spare them, as a man spareth his own son that serveth him. Then shall ye return, and discern between the righteous and the wicked, between him that serveth God and him that serveth Him not.

ye return'....the blood of righteous Abel still speaks...the Blood of Jesus speaks TODAY!

Hebrews 11:
4 By faith Abel offered to God a better sacrifice than Cain, ....though he is dead, he still speaks.
24 and to Jesus, the mediator of a new covenant, and to the sprinkled blood,
which speaks better than the blood of Abel. NASU

 

[Benoni]

As we aren't appointed to wrath then it means we are either gathered while His wrath is poured or it will be as when the three Hebrew children were in the fire....in it and yet not harmed.

Whilwind,


Not wrath, tribulation.

Acts 14:22 (WE) They talked to the disciples to help them. They told them to keep on believing. They said, `We must go through much trouble to get into God's kingdom.'Acts 14:22

(MSG) 21-22After proclaiming the Message in Derbe and establishing a strong core of disciples, they retraced their steps to Lystra, then Iconium, and then Antioch, putting muscle and sinew in the lives of the disciples, urging them to stick with what they had begun to believe and not quit, making it clear to them that it wouldn't be easy: "Anyone signing up for the kingdom of God has to go through plenty of hard times

Acts 14:22 (YLT) 22confirming the souls of the disciples, exhorting to remain in the faith, and that through many tribulations it behoveth us to enter into the reign of God,

Acts 14:22 (HCSB) 22 strengthening the hearts [a] of the disciples by encouraging them to continue in the faith, (A) and by telling them, "It is necessary to pass through many troubles (B) on our way into the kingdom of God."

Acts 14:22 (WYC) 22 confirming the souls of the disciples, and admonishing, that they should dwell in the faith, and said [and saying], That by many tribulations it behooveth us to enter into the kingdom of heavens.

 

[Benoni]

Not all will accept that freedom of creation. Every knee will bow at the beginning...but not through the end, of the millennium.


I see no reason to put a time on this statement for I see the millennium as just another age, it may take many ages for God to accomplish His purposes in humanity. But in the end

1 Cor 15:24 Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power. 25 For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet. 26 The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death. 27 For he hath put all things under his feet. But when he saith, all things are put under him, it is manifest that he is excepted, which did put all things under him. 28 And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all. (KJV)

I like the Amplified which declares. “Everything to everyoneâ€Â
28However, when everything is subjected to Him, then the Son Himself will also subject Himself to [the Father] Who put all things under Him, so that God may be all in all [be everything to everyone, supreme, the indwelling and controlling factor of life].

 

[follower of Christ]

UNDER CONSTRUCTION

The 'Rapture' (The Day of the Lord)
wm tipton

Assertions/Conclusions of this Article
That the 'rapture' is actually the Day of the Lord spoken of in the New Testament and that it will be towards the end of the 7 year tribulation.


Supporting Evidence

Firstly we establish that the 'day of the Lord' is what comes as a 'thief in the night'.

(1Thess 5:2) For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night.

(2Peter 3:10) But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night;

We see here that it is AFTER the tribulation of those days that the Son of Man appears.

29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken: 30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. 31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other. Matthew 24:29-31


But in those days, after that tribulation, the sun shall be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars of Heaven shall fall, and the powers in the heavens shall be shaken. And then they will see the Son of Man coming in the clouds with great power and glory. And then He shall send His angels and shall gather His elect from the four winds, from the end of the earth to the end of heaven.
(Mar 13:24-27)

When the Son of Man returns we see that some will be taken while others are left behind.

But just as the days of Noah were, so also shall be the coming of the Son of Man. For just as they were in the days before the flood, eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noah entered into the ark, and they didn't know a thing until the flood came and took them all away, so also shall be the coming of the Son of Man.
Then two will be in the field: one will be taken, and one will be left. Two will be grinding at the mill: one will be taken, and one will be left.
Watch therefore, for you do not know in what hour your Lord is coming. But know this, that if the master of the house had known in what hour the thief was coming, he would have kept watch, and he would not have allowed his house to be broken into. For this reason you also must be ready, for at an hour that you think not, the Son of Man comes.
(Matthew 24:37-44 EMTV)

We see that it shall be then as it was in the day of Noah and of Sodom. The righteous are pulled out of harms way then sudden judgment comes.

And as it was in the days of Noah, so it also shall be in the days of the Son of Man. They ate, they drank, they married wives, they were given in marriage, until the day that Noah entered into the ark; and the flood came and destroyed them all.

So also as it was in the days of Lot: they ate, they drank, they bought, they sold, they planted, they built; but the day Lot went out of Sodom, it rained fire and brimstone from the heaven and destroyed them all. Even so it shall be in the day when the Son of Man is revealed.
(Luk 17:26-30)

Here we see that the days of 'affliction' are shortened because of the elect, for their sake. They must be present and being afflicted for this to be accurate.

for then shall be great tribulation, such as has not been since the beginning of the world to this time; no, nor ever shall be. And unless those days should be shortened, no flesh would be saved. But for the elect's sake, those days shall be shortened.
(Mat 24:21-22)

For in those days shall be affliction, such as has not been from the beginning of the creation which God created until now, and never shall be. And unless the Lord had shortened those days, no flesh would be saved. But for the elect's sake, whom He has chosen, He has shortened the days.
(Mar 13:19-20)

 

[Benoni]

To kill with death

The second death as well as the Book of Revelation; which is not literal because God’s Word declares it is symbolic and spiritual. The fourth horse, the Pale Horse. "And when he had opened the fourth seal, I heard the voice of the fourth beast say, come and see. And I looked, and lo a pale horse: and his name that sat on him was Death, and Hell followed with him. And power was given unto them over the fourth part of the earth, to kill with the sword, and with hunger, and with death, and with the beasts of the earth" (Rev. 6:7-8).

There is a special significance to be attached to the description of the fourth horseman -- he whose name is Death -- and Hell followed with him. Death and Hell are specially linked in the Revelation. And since Christ came and abolished death (II Tim. 1:10) and destroyed him that had the power of death, that is, the devil (Heb. 2:14), He now boldly proclaims: "I am He that liveth, and was dead; and, behold, I am alive for evermore, Amen; and have the KEYS OF HELL AND OF DEATH" (Rev. 1:18). And since the Christ now possesses both hell and death neither of them ride anywhere except by His authority!

Now let us UNDERSTAND! This horse is given power over the fourth part of the earth-realm, to kill with the sword, and with hunger, and with death, and with the beasts of the earth.

This "fourth part of the earth" is clearly that portion of earthiness not already dealt with by the three preceding horses. It bespeaks of the conclusion, consummation and termination of the process. It means the final subjugation and destruction of everything within us that is contrary to HIS life and kingdom. And all the instruments necessary to accomplish this are in His hands and at His command.

To kill with DEATH
There is an amazing and significant statement in the passage that we do not want to miss. "And power was given unto Him to kill...with death."! How does one kill with death?

What can this cryptic statement mean?

To kill with death means a death by death. Later on in the book of Revelation the same truth is presented thus: "Death and hell were cast into the lake of Fire. This is the second death" (Rev. 20:14). Now let us turn this around for clarity. "The second death IS death and hell cast into the lake of fire." Therefore we have exactly the same meaning either way it is stated. What is the second death? It is the first death and hell cast into the lake of fire!

"Our God is a consuming fire.
" This fact is extremely IMPORTANT. The second death is not merely the lake of fire. Nor is the second death men being tortured forever in the lake of fire.

The Holy Spirit has made it very simple and plain. The second death is the first death and hell CAST INTO THE LAKE OF FIRE.

That is the Holy Spirit's definition, not mine.

Can we now open the eyes of our understanding to see that everything cast into the lake of fire pertains to DEATH? Death itself is cast into the lake of fire. Hell, the realm of the dead, is cast into the lake of fire. And those whose names are not written in the Book of Life, i.e. those who are dead, in trespasses and in sins, who inhabit hell, are cast into the lake of fire.

That is the end of death and hell and sin and sinners, for God shall destroy the whole realm of death in the lake of fire. He shall burn up hell in the lake of fire, He shall destroy death in the lake of fire, and He shall consume sin in the lake of fire.

How I long to see the end of sin and death and hell! The time is coming, praise His name! God's Kingdom shall rule over all and God Himself shall be All-in-all. There shall be neither sin, nor sinners, nor death, nor hell

. It is clear that God does not destroy men in the lake of fire, nowhere does it say that, for that would be a contradiction of terms. How can you destroy death by creating death?

How can you abolish death by bringing men under the power of eternal death from which there is no escape?

Oh, no, it is not men who are destroyed in the lake of fire -- it is sin and death and hell that are destroyed. "And the last enemy that shall be destroyed is death" (I Cor. 15:26). "And there shall be no more death: for the former things are passed away" (Rev. 21:4). Thus, the lake of fire is nothing more nor less than THE DEATH OF DEATH! "And power was given unto them to kill...with death. " 0, the wonder of it!

 

[Ret]

He is the Lord of all...dead and living. It's just that the dead don't know that.

Agreed

Above you wrote....."God is not saving the FLESH of either of them." You hinted at that in a previous post and I'm not certain what you mean. Do you believe some will be in flesh and others not when this age ends?

I believe ALL believers will maintain the fleshly mortal existence till God clothes them with immortality. However, the tendencies of the flesh do not RULE, do not CONTROL the body, the Spirit of TRUTH rules. We carry around this FLESH (dead body) till we are clothed with immortality. Similar to the life of Paul - I believe our tribulations will be similar to Paul being in 'chains/bonds'.

1 Corinthians 15:

50 Now I say this, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; nor does the perishable inherit the imperishable...

54 But when this perishable will have put on the imperishable, and this mortal will have put on immortality, then will come about the saying that is written, "DEATH IS SWALLOWED UP in victory. NASU

 

[follower of Christ]

To kill with death

The second death as well as the Book of Revelation; which is not literal because God’s Word declares it is symbolic and spiritual.

The second 'death' is being cast into the lake of fire, which is not for you or me to say is literal or not seeing that Jesus Christ is also mentioned in Revelation and we KNOW He is literal.

 

[follower of Christ]

Hell, the realm of the dead, is cast into the lake of fire. And those whose names are not written in the Book of Life, i.e. those who are dead, in trespasses and in sins, who inhabit hell, are cast into the lake of fire.

Exactly.
And this place is eternal...a place that was prepared for the devil and his fallen angels...

"Then He will also say to those on the left, 'Depart from Me, you cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels:
(Matthew 25:41 EMTV)

That is the end of death and hell and sin and sinners, for God shall destroy the whole realm of death in the lake of fire. He shall burn up hell in the lake of fire, He shall destroy death in the lake of fire, and He shall consume sin in the lake of fire.

consuming sin is a bit of a stretch, Id say, if its meant to claim that it is somehow purged out of the soul. I see no evidence to support the thought.

How I long to see the end of sin and death and hell!

So you WANT people to go to the eternal lake of fire ???

 

[whirlwind]

Along with that group of the spiritually dead, (righteous and wicked) there is another....the elect or spiritually living. They are already judged, justified, [Romans 8:30]. They are those that return and discern.....

Ok...Romans 8:
v28 says 'to those who are called according to His purpose'...what purpose >
30 ...predestined > called > justified > glorified (GLORIFIED..? think twice)

Jesus tells Peter what will happen to him at the end of his life. John 21:18,19 gives the account of this in v19...'kind of death he (Peter) would glorify God.' Previously in John 12 Jesus gives an account of His own life saying...v23 The hour has come for the Son of Man to glorified. v24 Truly, truly, I say to you, unless a grain of wheat falls into the earth and dies, it remains alone; but if it dies, it bears much fruit.' later in the chapter this is stated again in another format... 'And I, if I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all men to Myself. v33 But He was saying this to indicate the kind of death by which He was to die. NASU

WW...this was quite a shock - to understand the death of my flesh is what brings glory to God. I was raised to think it was all my 'good works' and 'self-less behavior, giving', even that of performing miracles, that brought glory to God. Churches today still preach 'give, give, give' and you bring glory to God. Ok for kids maybe, but to the adult that's like having eyes but see not!

I never thought of those verses in that context but....I agree. It is the death of our flesh. This is being discussed in another thread. One must die to self!

• * Malachi 3:17-18 And they shall be Mine, saith the LORD of hosts, in that day when I make up My jewels; and I will spare them, as a man spareth his own son that serveth him. Then shall ye return, and discern between the righteous and the wicked, between him that serveth God and him that serveth Him not.

[/b]

ye return'....the blood of righteous Abel still speaks...the Blood of Jesus speaks TODAY!

Hebrews 11:
4 By faith Abel offered to God a better sacrifice than Cain, ....though he is dead, he still speaks.
24 and to Jesus, the mediator of a new covenant, and to the sprinkled blood,
which speaks better than the blood of Abel. NASU

 

[whirlwind]

He is the Lord of all...dead and living. It's just that the dead don't know that.

Agreed

Above you wrote....."God is not saving the FLESH of either of them." You hinted at that in a previous post and I'm not certain what you mean. Do you believe some will be in flesh and others not when this age ends?

I believe ALL believers will maintain the fleshly mortal existence till God clothes them with immortality. However, the tendencies of the flesh do not RULE, do not CONTROL the body, the Spirit of TRUTH rules. We carry around this FLESH (dead body) till we are clothed with immortality. Similar to the life of Paul - I believe our tribulations will be similar to Paul being in 'chains/bonds'.

1 Corinthians 15:

50 Now I say this, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; nor does the perishable inherit the imperishable...

54 But when this perishable will have put on the imperishable, and this mortal will have put on immortality, then will come about the saying that is written, "DEATH IS SWALLOWED UP in victory. NASU

I agree...we carry around flesh even though we have died to self but....I also believe that all souls (believers and non-believers, elect, righteous and wicked) will be changed into spiritual bodies at the end of this age. I guess my question I have from your posts is....do you believe that some folks remain in flesh bodies after his 2nd Advent?

 

[Ret]

I agree...we carry around flesh even though we have died to self but....I also believe that all souls (believers and non-believers, elect, righteous and wicked) will be changed into spiritual bodies at the end of this age. I guess my question I have from your posts is....do you believe that some folks remain in flesh bodies after his 2nd Advent?

Would you define your understanding of 2nd Advent and we will go from there...OR is this a topic for another thread?

 

[whirlwind]

I agree...we carry around flesh even though we have died to self but....I also believe that all souls (believers and non-believers, elect, righteous and wicked) will be changed into spiritual bodies at the end of this age. I guess my question I have from your posts is....do you believe that some folks remain in flesh bodies after his 2nd Advent?

Would you define your understanding of 2nd Advent and we will go from there...OR is this a topic for another thread?

I think the two subjects meld quite well.

It is when He returns. First in us and then with us...to judge and make war.

 

[Ret]

Would you define your understanding of 2nd Advent and we will go from there...OR is this a topic for another thread?

I think the two subjects meld quite well.

It is when He returns. First in us and then with us...to judge and make war.

Good... I do believe the events from Rev 19-21 (22?) overlap somewhat. Within this framework, I would say we are 'on the same page' and yes, the believer has changed from mortality to immortality.

Some overlaping is in connection to the 'white horse' and the 'white throne' being the same event.
To make 'war' and to 'judge' are the same event. The 7 last plagues don't happen till the ' holy city' comes down from heaven (Rev 15:1/17:1 & 21:9). The wicked 'surround the camp of the saints and the beloved city, and fire come down from heaven (Jesus/white horse-throne) and devoured them'. Rev 20:9, which is essentially the result of judging and making war.

The 1000 years...to the flesh what happens between Rev 19 and 21 equates to 1000 years, but to God (and the saints) it's just one (1) day, one event!

The point you and C make on 'Christ in us and then with us', I believe Christ is IN US and and works His will through us by FAITH, His Spirit keeping our mortal flesh in check till we are given immortality and live 'in the city' where we will judge and make war. This is not the end of the matter...I do believe there is more to be revealed in this area as time keeps going forward!
R...

 

[whirlwind]

Would you define your understanding of 2nd Advent and we will go from there...OR is this a topic for another thread?

I think the two subjects meld quite well.

It is when He returns. First in us and then with us...to judge and make war.

Good... I do believe the events from Rev 19-21 (22?) overlap somewhat. Within this framework, I would say we are 'on the same page' and yes, the believer has changed from mortality to immortality.

Some overlaping is in connection to the 'white horse' and the 'white throne' being the same event.
To make 'war' and to 'judge' are the same event. The 7 last plagues don't happen till the ' holy city' comes down from heaven (Rev 15:1/17:1 & 21:9). The wicked 'surround the camp of the saints and the beloved city, and fire come down from heaven (Jesus/white horse-throne) and devoured them'. Rev 20:9, which is essentially the result of judging and making war.

The plagues are the wrath of God and they are contained in the seven vials which the seven angels have. They are told to "Go your ways, and pour out the vials of the wrath of God upon the earth." [16:1] This is after we see "them that had gotten the victory over the beast, and over his image and over his mark" and they are standing "on the sea of glass, having the harps of God." [15:2]

I point this out as I see the plagues/wrath happening before the "holy city comes down from heaven." I don't understand the time frame you are seeing. To me, where it is written [15:1] that "the seven angels having the seven last plagues" is different than [17:1] where "the seven angels which had the seven vials." The holy city comes down after the millennium [21:2] so in [21:9] isn't the angel we see simply one of the angels that "had" the plagues...he doesn't still have it.

The 1000 years...to the flesh what happens between Rev 19 and 21 equates to 1000 years, but to God (and the saints) it's just one (1) day, one event!

That is a most interesting thought. Because the saints are immortal then the reckoning of time is different. So, you believe that souls (non-elect) are still in flesh bodies during this time? I have always understood [1Corinthians 15:50-54] to mean that everyone is changed. Do you have other verses that show some folks still being in flesh during that time? I'm going to look in Ezekiel...it seems like it said something to that effect.

The point you and C make on 'Christ in us and then with us', I believe Christ is IN US and and works His will through us by FAITH, His Spirit keeping our mortal flesh in check till we are given immortality and live 'in the city' where we will judge and make war. This is not the end of the matter...I do believe there is more to be revealed in this area as time keeps going forward!
R...

So do I Ret....in all areas. :yes

 

[Ret]

The plagues are the wrath of God and they are contained in the seven vials which the seven angels have. They are told to "Go your ways, and pour out the vials of the wrath of God upon the earth." [16:1] This is after we see "them that had gotten the victory over the beast, and over his image and over his mark" and they are standing "on the sea of glass, having the harps of God." [15:2]

I point this out as I see the plagues/wrath happening before the "holy city comes down from heaven." I don't understand the time frame you are seeing. To me, where it is written [15:1] that "the seven angels having the seven last plagues" is different than [17:1] where "the seven angels which had the seven vials." The holy city comes down after the millennium [21:2] so in [21:9] isn't the angel we see simply one of the angels that "had" the plagues...he doesn't still have it.

My previous understanding was that these were SEPARATE events, but Rev 21:9 puts them together!

Revelation 21:9
9 And there came unto me one of the seven angels which had the seven vials full of the seven last plagues, and talked with me, saying, Come hither, I will shew thee the bride, the Lamb's wife. KJV

At first Rev 21:9 reads as though this 7 angel work is already done, BUT take another look at ...

Rev 20:7-10

7 And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,
8 And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea.
9 And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.
10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever. KJV

Rev 20:7 says when the 1000 years are expired, I inferred this to be within the 1000 years. I will study this more tomorrow, for now the question is - how is Satan and his gang able to compass the 'beloved city' if the city has not already come down from heaven?

Another question...are we correctly understanding the term 'city'...does that mean being in the presence of Jesus Christ? Are we trying to make literal something which is (at this point) symbolic?

A very worthy discussion...gotta go..more tomorrow...R