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The "Debate" that's not a Debate

Greetings and God bless to all. If you don't mind I would like to put in my 2 cents. I have studied predestination in some detail the last few months in order to try and find the answer to what "the elect" are.
First of all, God has graciously blessed us with His grace, something which all of us are underserved of. So let's take a look at some scriptures:
1 Timothy 2:4 - who desires all men to be delivered, and come to full knowledge of Him
Titus 2:11 -For the grace of God which brings salvation appeared to all men.
2 Peter 3:9 - The Lord is not slow as to the promise, as some deem slowness, but is long-suffering toward us, not having purposed any of us to perish, but all of us to come to repentance.
These scriptural passages are telling us that God wants and purposed for none of us to perish.
Romans 11:20 - Well! For unbelief they were broken off. And you stand by faith.
This passage tells us that nobody is unconditionally appointed to eternal life.
Then there is Romans 8:28-30 - (28) And we know that in all things God works for the good of those who love him, who have been called according to his purpose. (29) For those God foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the likeness of His Son, that he might be firstborn among many brothers. (30) And those He predestined, he also called; those he called, he also justified; those he justified, he also glorified.
The elect we see in scripture are those that He foreknew would willingly accept Jesus, and those He foreknew would accept Jesus were/are predestined to conform to His image.
There is something called the Law of non-contradiction which basically states that two things that are opposite cannot both be true. For example, if we truly have free will, then we must have the ability to choose Jesus, otherwise we have not free will.
So, knowing that the Bible is the word of God and thus cannot have contradictions, we must interpret the scripture in such a way as to not create a contradiction, as Calvinists have. :D







I will address the 3 out of context passages quoted. Two of the three passages are based upon the single word "all." Most people who quote such passages as Narwhalist did assume that the only possible meaning of the word "all" in each passage must be interpreted as "all men everywhere at all times." Of course rarely does the context actually allow for such an understanding of the word "all." Lets us look at a few obvious demonstrations that the word "all" does not always mean each and every person without exception.
2Sa_11:1 And it came to pass, at the return of the year, at the time when kings go out to battle, that David sent Joab, and his servants with him, and all Israel; and they destroyed the children of Ammon, and besieged Rabbah. But David tarried at Jerusalem.
*Was each and every Israelite with Joab at the seige of Rabbah? Every old man, every infant, no one left on the farms, the cities were all empty? Obviously not. David himself did not go. Was he alone in Jerusalem? Obviously the term "all" in this context does not mean each and every person without exception.
*Mat_3:5 Then went out unto him Jerusalem, and all Judaea, and all the region round about the Jordan;
Here the passage uses the word "all" twice. It says all judea, and all the region around Jordan went to see john the baptist. Again, if the reader reads the word all as meaning each and every person without exception, then you have absurdities. That means each infirm person in old age, every infant. Every pregnant mother in child birth. Every sick person. That means Jerusalem, judea, and jordan had not a soul left in them and all were watching John? Obviously not.

The term "all" can be used in several ways.... "all kinds of men" or "all men in a certain place" or "all men everywhere." Only the context can determine the meaning in each context. The error of the person quoting the 3 verses above is that they do not look at the context to determine the meaning of a word.

Now that we know that we cannot assume that the word "all" means "each and every person without exception everywhere at all times" lets look at the context of the 3 verses used above in the post.
Let me first quote the passage and I will bold only the word "all" each time found in the context (please note that I will be using the word "every" also, it is the same word in greek "pas")
1Ti 2:1 I exhort therefore, first of all, that supplications, prayers, intercessions, thanksgivings, be made for all men;
1Ti 2:2 for kings and all that are in high place; that we may lead a tranquil and quiet life in all godliness and gravity.
1Ti 2:3 This is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour;
1Ti 2:4 who would have all men to be saved, and come to the knowledge of the truth.
1Ti 2:5 For there is one God, one mediator also between God and men, himself man, Christ Jesus,
1Ti 2:6 who gave himself a ransom for all; the testimony to be borne in its own times;
1Ti 2:7 whereunto I was appointed a preacher and an apostle (I speak the truth, I lie not), a teacher of the Gentiles in faith and truth.
1Ti 2:8 I desire therefore that the men pray in every place, lifting up holy hands, without wrath and disputing.
VERSE 1---- In verse 1 the term all is used but does not mean each and every individual person in all times everywhere. It is speaking of all kinds of rulers (specified in verse 2---all kinds of kings and people in high places). If the term "all" in verse 1 means all men everywhere in all times, then have you went through your local phone book and prayed for each and every name? Then you go to the phone book in the next area code, and the next, and then pray for each individual person in China. Of course verse 1 is not speaking of each and every individual person. In fact when we read verse 2, we see categories of people such as rulers. So then, just as we pray for all categories of men God will save some in all categories of men. We do not pray for each and everyone individually, and God will not save each and everyone individually in verse 4.
VERSE 4---- The use of the term in verse 4 speaks of God desiring all men to be saved. If God desires the salvation of all men, then why are not all men saved? Or will God spend all eternity weeping over all those he failed to save. I guess he just cannot get done what he really wants. On the other hand, if we read the term "all" in verse 4 the same way we read the word "all" in verse 1, God desires the salvation of all kinds of men. Rulers, people in high places, and also other kinds of people, but not each and every individual everywhere.
VERSE 5 & 6---- If God gave Jesus a ransom for all men everywhere, then we have universalism. Also, in verse 5 when he speaks of Christ mediating between God and man, he would do this for all the ransomed people. So then, if some go to hell, then the mediating ministry of the great high priest, Jesus, has failed and is insufficient. So then, Jesus appeals his shed blood and the Father says, "not enough, I will still send some to hell."
VERSE 8 ---- If we are to pray in every place, did you start in the kitchen and pray for all men on each of the chairs in the kitchen? Then did you stand on the kitchen table and pray from each spot? Did you climb to the roof and stand on each and every shingle on the roof and pray on them? The word "every" in this passage is still the word "all" in greek (pas). Obviously no one reads verse 8 as meaning each and every place in the universe without exception. Neither in verse 4 is God trying to save all men without exception.
***** The word "all" in verse 1,2 and 8 cannot mean all men everywhere at all times. Why then do those who quote verse 4 assume that it absolutely must mean all men everywhere? The reason is that they do not look at the context to determine the meaning of a word.


The next passage quoted is Titus 2:11. Since Titus 2:11 is much easier to demonstrate the falicy of seeing the word "all" as meaning "all men in all times everywhere," far less space is going to be devoted. Lets begin with a quote of the context.
Tit 2:11 For the grace of God hath appeared, bringing salvation to all men,
Tit 2:12 instructing us, to the intent that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly and righteously and godly in this present world;

First, look at the phrase "bringing salvation to all men." First, to not get universalism, one must read something into that phrase that is not present. Those who misinterpret the verse assume that the phrase "bringing salvation to all men" actually means only "bringing a remote possibility of salvation to all men." The misinterpreted usually assumes that Christ death does not actually save, but only brings a remote possibility of salvation.
Second, notice the pronouns in verse 12. Who is the "us" in verse 12. Verse 11 and verse 12 are part of once sentence. The word "us" and the words "all men" are the same group. The grace of God appears to "us" and to "all men." The word "all" here speaks of a group. If I say "all" those in my living room will get money. I will give each of you a million dollars. --- Those in my living room are the "all" and they are they "you." I am not going to give a million dollars to all men everywhere. Only those in my living room. The word "All" in the context of Titus 2:11 is used in the same way. It is used with the pronoun "us" in verse 12 and signifies a certain specific group of people and not all men everywhere. That would be universalism.


The last reference is 1 Peter 3:9. This reference is the easiest to demonstrate that it is not speaking of "all men everywhere in all times and places."
2Pe 3:9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some count slackness; but is longsuffering to you-ward, not wishing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.
With the pronoun "you-ward" it specificly defines who Peter is talking to. The pronoun "you" in both 1st and 2nd Peter speaks of Christians.
2Pe 3:1 This is now, beloved, the second epistle that I write unto you; and in both of them I stir up your sincere mind by putting you in remembrance;
A reference to the elect....
1Pe 1:1 Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ, to the elect who are sojourners ....
In 1 Peter 3:9 God is not slack concerning his promises to the elect (you) and is longsufering to "you"..... not willing for any of you (the elect) to perish, but willing to wait for each and every one of the elect to come to repentance.

Unfortunately, I have seen non-Calvinists misrepresent the context of so many more passages, and that is how the game works. Now someone is going to jump to yet another passage and I am aware of many other passages with the word "all" or "world" or something like that which is used out of context. The general way conversations go like this is for someone to jump to yet other verses. Rarely will anyone dispute the contexts we are discussing. Rarely will anyone even try to dispute verses I quote. My hat is off to gr8grace, so far he is the only one to attempt working on the context of any passage quoted by me. So far, he is a notch above the rest because only he tried to work with 2 Thes 2:13 ...... or any passage I quoted. I rarely see any attempts to counter arguments, most just jump to yet another context. But, that is the way the game always works out.
 
Mondar, this has been an interesting read and you've certainly explained your position well. Thank you for that. But I have to say I'm not convinced. The support you have given for your side, defining the word "all" as you have is clearly colored by what you want these verses to say. Someone on the other side of this can just as easily color it to what they want it to say, that "all" in the cases that apply does indeed mean each and every person in the world even when looking at the passage in context, and that would be just as valid. At least that's what I've been told by those who have studied the Biblical languages more than I have and know more about it than I do. And in researching what they have said myself, I agree with them. But I think this is a good example of why we have this controversy and why it's been going on for so long now. It's probably not going to get solved.
 
Mondar, this has been an interesting read and you've certainly explained your position well. Thank you for that. But I have to say I'm not convinced. The support you have given for your side, defining the word "all" as you have is clearly colored by what you want these verses to say. Someone on the other side of this can just as easily color it to what they want it to say, that "all" in the cases that apply does indeed mean each and every person in the world even when looking at the passage in context, and that would be just as valid. At least that's what I've been told by those who have studied the Biblical languages more than I have and know more about it than I do. And in researching what they have said myself, I agree with them. But I think this is a good example of why we have this controversy and why it's been going on for so long now. It's probably not going to get solved.

To date, it is not a neutral issue as you seem to suggest. I have offered contextual evidence for my view of the word "all." Have you, or anyone else offered contextual evidence for your view of the word "all?" Can you show from that the context is demanding the understanding of the word "all" to mean "each and every man everywhere in all times?" While I can and do offer contextual evidence, you do not, and cannot... because no such contextual evidence exists.
 
Mondar says - I will address the 3 out of context passages quoted. Two of the three passages are based upon the single word "all." Most people who quote such passages as Narwhalist did assume that the only possible meaning of the word "all" in each passage must be interpreted as "all men everywhere at all times." Of course rarely does the context actually allow for such an understanding of the word "all." Lets us look at a few obvious demonstrations that the word "all" does not always mean each and every person without exception

If that is the case then we might as well forget it because many words can be made to mean whatever you want and then the Bible would lose it's way. All means all.

2Sa 1:11 And it came to pass, at the return of the year, at the time when kings go out to battle, that David sent Joab, and his servants with him, and all Israel; and they destroyed the children of Ammon, and besieged Rabbah. But David tarried at Jerusalem.

The question in this passage is not what ALL means but what ISRAEL means - Israel in this passage means that every available person that could fight, did so.
Mondar, respectfully speaking, you can't take words and massage them to mean what you want. You have to take the context, then the meaning the author is trying to convey. In 1 Timothy 2:4 - "all men" means everyone. All means all and men means the human race, man and woman. In 2 Samuel 11:1 "all Israel," all means all and Israel means every fighting man. In Matthew 3:5 "all Judea, and all the region around the Jordan," all still means all, and Judea is talking about believers - specifically about a region. So all means all believers who were able to go that live in a certain region.
There is no error in my interpretation of 1 timothy 2:14 or Titus 2:11. All means all.
Finally, I read the Bible under my own umbrella, not under the umbrella of Calvinism, or non-Calvinism, or Catholicism, or Baptists or any other denominations. What you are doing is exactly what Jesus didn't want, denominational wars. It is our inability to work together that has led to all of these denominations, which have prevented from the one true church Jesus wanted on this earth from being formed. :sad
 
So you say that election depends on what you do and God cannot take action until you let him because he knew you would allow him to do so.

Just what is the Gospil..................The good news from heaven to lost sinners, that glorious gospil of salvation in the LORD Jesus Christ, is not a message of expection to save but of a salvation purposed and accomplished.

It is not a message of Christ knocking at the door of a sinners heart, hoping to gain entrance, but of his will and ability to give a new heart to whom he wills.

It is not a message of the holy spirit striving with the sinners natural will, hoping to influence him to decide for Jesus, but of his purpose and ability to make sinners willing, causing them to flee to the Lord Jesus Christ, admitting their helplessness

Addressing Romans 8 predestination took place before the world was. He knew his people before creation that they would be conformed to his Son.

Those he predetinated, them, HE ALSO called.and those he called he also justfied and them he also glorified. Why do men want to have a part in spirital matterrs, when they are dead in such things and NONE are rightous and NONE seek God.
The LORD looked down from heaven upon the children of men to see if there were any that did understand and SEEK GOD. They are all gone aside and there is NONE I repeat NONE that doeth good ,NO NOT ONE,. Plsm 14:2 and 3 They that are in the flesh cannot please God. NOT ONE. This passage is recorded again in Romans 3:10
AS it is written(in plsm 14) There is NONE rightous, no not one/ There is NONE that understands there is NONE that seeketh after God. There is NONE that doeth good. Of course because all men are spiritually dead unable of themselfs to come to God. But GOD who is so rich in his mercy for his people he choose and died for, gives life to those who of themself would NEVER of there own will choose God because they are dead to such things .
So then it is not of him that willith (NONE do) nor of him that runneth, BUT of GOD that sheweth MERCY. The second someone says they had a part in his Salvation, they pervet the Soverign grace of allmighty God. He has mercy on whom he wills and men should both fear him and thank him for the new life he gives to his election and it is NEVER dependant on what you say or do.
Gods blood bought children, fall down before him, recognizing, how bad they are and cease from their works, resting in his wonderfull perfect work, worshiping HIM alone as allmighty God, thanking him for his spirit . We worship a great God. The 1st few verses of Plsm 96 says it well. WE sing a new song , decalring his glory forever as he allows us to do so.
 
Eventide.........We must believe in him to be saved. Yes I believe entirely upon him, and in no part of my flesh or will . I believe he is the perfect Saviour, who does not need our help to do what he wants to do and that is, Save his blood bought Chlidren. He will never fail and we in the flesh will always fail. Hope to see you in Glory someday...............
 
To date, it is not a neutral issue as you seem to suggest. I have offered contextual evidence for my view of the word "all." Have you, or anyone else offered contextual evidence for your view of the word "all?" Can you show from that the context is demanding the understanding of the word "all" to mean "each and every man everywhere in all times?" While I can and do offer contextual evidence, you do not, and cannot... because no such contextual evidence exists.

I didn't say it is a "neutral issue" (whatever you mean by that). I offer no evidence because I'm not fooling myself into thinking anything I say would change the mind of you or any other hard core Calvinists. I have better things to do than to beat my head against that brick wall today. I simply made my statement as an observer, as someone you are probably trying to convert to your way of thinking, that your line of reasoning is noticeably colored by your preference for what you want the verses you cited to say and is not convincing to many of those outside of your circle of thought. A wise person would pay attention to that. A person who wants to preach to the choir and hear their praises will carry on.
 
To date, it is not a neutral issue as you seem to suggest. I have offered contextual evidence for my view of the word "all." Have you, or anyone else offered contextual evidence for your view of the word "all?" Can you show from that the context is demanding the understanding of the word "all" to mean "each and every man everywhere in all times?" While I can and do offer contextual evidence, you do not, and cannot... because no such contextual evidence exists.

I didn't say it is a "neutral issue" (whatever you mean by that). I offer no evidence because I'm not fooling myself into thinking anything I say would change the mind of you or any other hard core Calvinists. I have better things to do than to beat my head against that brick wall today. I simply made my statement as an observer, as someone you are probably trying to convert to your way of thinking, that your line of reasoning is noticeably colored by your preference for what you want the verses you cited to say and is not convincing to many of those outside of your circle of thought. A wise person would pay attention to that. A person who wants to preach to the choir and hear their praises will carry on.

By your own statement, your not here to offer any evidence (scriptural or contextual). Your just here to make accusations? Well I am sure that will be helpful to the thread.
 
Wip God condems all men due to their fallen nature and men are spiritly dead. Then by his power and might he reaches down into that pit and gives life to his blood bought children and they are brought out and set free. Until then NONE can do good, no Not one. I thank him daily for his mercy and his Grace. He gives life to the dead and it is forever. What a great God we worship.
 
To Virginshallconceive.............I am sorry you think the Gospil of Jesus Christ"s Mercy and Grace is entertainment. It is not ,and we are talking about God Allmighty and him him crucified. May he bless you as ONLY he can do.
 
By your own statement, your not here to offer any evidence (scriptural or contextual). Your just here to make accusations? Well I am sure that will be helpful to the thread.

I made no accusations, I simply made an observation and that is allowed here even if you don't appreciate it. Perhaps you mistook this forum for the "Focus on Scripture" forum where evidence IS required in all statements? If it sounded like an accusation, then perhaps it is your guilty conscience making it sound that way to you. I would have thought you would have taken such an observation and considered why a person would feel that way and how you might change your presentation to address that. That's how it might have been helpful. The "It's true because I say it's true and if you don't want to believe me you can shut up" attitude has never been very effective to those outside of one's own circle of believers. I've learned this the hard way myself. But it seems that was lost on you and I'm sorry it was. Maybe others following your same position will consider it and use it to their advantage.
 

2.4: No Trolling. Do not make an inflammatory remark just to get a response. Address issues not personalities. Respect where people are in their spiritual walk, and respect all others in general. Respect where others are in their spiritual walk, do not disrupt the flow of discussion or act in a way that affects others negatively including when debating doctrinal issues, in the defense of the Christian faith, and in offering unwelcome spiritual advice.

Not necessarily directed at the last poster.
 
To date, it is not a neutral issue as you seem to suggest. I have offered contextual evidence for my view of the word "all." Have you, or anyone else offered contextual evidence for your view of the word "all?" Can you show from that the context is demanding the understanding of the word "all" to mean "each and every man everywhere in all times?" While I can and do offer contextual evidence, you do not, and cannot... because no such contextual evidence exists.

I didn't say it is a "neutral issue" (whatever you mean by that). I offer no evidence because I'm not fooling myself into thinking anything I say would change the mind of you or any other hard core Calvinists. I have better things to do than to beat my head against that brick wall today. I simply made my statement as an observer, as someone you are probably trying to convert to your way of thinking, that your line of reasoning is noticeably colored by your preference for what you want the verses you cited to say and is not convincing to many of those outside of your circle of thought. A wise person would pay attention to that. A person who wants to preach to the choir and hear their praises will carry on.

By your own statement, your not here to offer any evidence (scriptural or contextual). Your just here to make accusations? Well I am sure that will be helpful to the thread.

Mondar - I provided contextual evidence, which you have ignored so far. You need to learn to read the Bible. When you look at a phrase such as "the whole world" you don't look for the possible meanings of whole. Whole is whole. You look at the possible meanings of world. What is meant by world. Is it the entire earth, is it just the region that comprises the world for the writer, is it a person's world and includes just those important to the writer. You are the one taking "all men" out of context. All men is a metaphor which includes the human race. Or are you going to tell me that it's for men only and not women. I don't mean to be arrogant, but when I see people interpreting scripture like you it makes me sad. :sad
 
Mondar - I provided contextual evidence, which you have ignored so far.
And this is why I saw no sense in repeating the same work you did. Not that I can't, as Mondar stated, just that it made no sense to try. I thought maybe a different observation might have been helpful. Hopefully it was to some.
 
Mondar - I provided contextual evidence, which you have ignored so far. You need to learn to read the Bible. When you look at a phrase such as "the whole world" you don't look for the possible meanings of whole. Whole is whole. You look at the possible meanings of world. What is meant by world. Is it the entire earth, is it just the region that comprises the world for the writer, is it a person's world and includes just those important to the writer. You are the one taking "all men" out of context. All men is a metaphor which includes the human race. Or are you going to tell me that it's for men only and not women. I don't mean to be arrogant, but when I see people interpreting scripture like you it makes me sad. :sad
Narwhalist, it does not seem that you and a few others are actually looking to engage me in honest and gentle conversation. When you make statements like " You need to learn to read the Bible" it appears to me your just looking to insult. I know that insulting behavior is often acceptable to those who hate the Calvinist boogie man.

I did notice your post #64, but did not feel it offered much of a challenge. I felt most readers would move right past your post and dismiss it. Since there are multiple people posting against me, I thought I should defend against the better posts and leave the rest to other readers. If you really wish to engage me in conversation, tone your posts down and raise the bar of evidence a little bit.
 
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The other thing, is that I do not intend to reply to posts I consider shallow. If I reply, it will not be to the low hanging fruit, but the better replies.

Yes, you will find many who agree with you, as there are large numbers of Christians on both sides of this. Many of them will live up to your standards and make themselves worthy of your acknowledgment. Many scholars have studied and taught on both sides of this subject.
 
Mondar - I provided contextual evidence, which you have ignored so far. You need to learn to read the Bible. When you look at a phrase such as "the whole world" you don't look for the possible meanings of whole. Whole is whole. You look at the possible meanings of world. What is meant by world. Is it the entire earth, is it just the region that comprises the world for the writer, is it a person's world and includes just those important to the writer. You are the one taking "all men" out of context. All men is a metaphor which includes the human race. Or are you going to tell me that it's for men only and not women. I don't mean to be arrogant, but when I see people interpreting scripture like you it makes me sad. :sad
Narwhalist, it does not seem that you and a few others are actually looking to engage me in honest and gentle conversation. When you make statements like " You need to learn to read the Bible" it appears to me your just looking to insult. I know that insulting behavior is often acceptable to those who hate the Calvinist boogie man.

I did notice your post #64, but did not feel it offered much of a challenge. I felt most readers would move right past your post and dismiss it. Since there are multiple people posting against me, I thought I should defend against the better posts and leave the rest to other readers. If you really wish to engage me in conversation, tone your posts down and raise the bar of evidence a little bit.

I apologize if you were offended by the statement about needing to learn to read the bible. I admit it was unnecessary and not very nice. But you have now asked me to raise the bar of evidence and I feel that I have given you enough evidence, but you refuse to comment on it. The bottom line is that no matter what scripture you read, you can't make the scripture fit what you believe. You have to read what is there and identify the metaphors, hyperboles, similes, and other forms of expressing ideas. If you go around saying that all doesn't mean all, then you can take any scripture with that word on it and turn it upside down to make it fit what you believe. In the case of "all Judea" (the example you brought up) , all is not the metaphor so it should be taken literally to mean all. Men is the metaphor in that statement. It is a metaphor for humanity, otherwise it would only be applicable to men. Again I'm sorry for the aggressive posting, I will try to be more civil.:thumbsup
 
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