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The difference in the rapture and the second coming

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"Coming like a thief in the night" comes from Matthew 24:43 and yes it refers to the rapture.

Even though I have been a Post-Tribulationist for many years and have been repeatedly and viciously attacked by Pre-Tribulationists, I am consistently surprised at how many believers continue to view the various 'Thief In The Night' passages in the Scriptures as being descriptive of a pretribulation rapture. Through widespread usage, the evocative phrase has evolved into a somewhat universal description of the much touted hypothetical secret coming of Christ to evacuate believers before the tribulation begins.

Christian books, multitudes of prophecy tapes, dramatic video productions, and a host of other media have been utilizing the theme for many years. For example, a feature film entitled Thief In The Night has been extensively screened (on film & video) to Christian audiences throughout North America -- even as the word thief has found its way into the titles of numerous rapture-oriented prophecy books and magazine articles. Clearly, a large portion of the church believes the various thief verses in the Bible provide Scriptural support for the fictitious doctrine of the pre-trib rapture.

The fact is, the verses in the New Testament that reference Christ's coming as a thief, without exception, refer to His second coming -- at the very end of the tribulation.

The word thief actually appears 27 times in the entire Bible. It's found 12 times in the Old Testament, and 15 times in the New Testament. None of the OT references are germane to the study as they typically describe the sanctions and prohibitions against theft; e.g. Thou Shalt Not Steal. (Ex 20:15).

In the New Testament, all 15 occurrences of the word thief are relevant, so they are representative of the intent and meaning inherent in the phrase 'come like a thief,' or 'thief in the night.' At the Olivet mountain, Jesus taught that "... if the goodman of the house had known in what watch the thief would come, he would have watched, and would not have suffered his house to be broken up." (Mat 24:43). In this account, which is echoed in Luke, we see the concept of watching for the unexpected arrival of the thief.

However, what most rapturists miss here is the obvious fact that the thief is spoken of in a negative context for his actions are hardly desirable as his activity is textually limited to the 'breaking up' of the goodman's house -- hardly descriptive of someone coming on a mission of rescue and evacuation. It's also important to remember that this particular reference about the thief COMING TO DESTROY appears in the very chapter wherein Christ is articulating the events surrounding His return -- Matthew 24.

In the next occurrence of the word thief, we see Jesus responding to His betrayal and subsequent arrest by the Jewish and Roman authorities. As Judas led the armed guards to his former master, Christ asked "Are ye come out as against a thief with swords and staves for to take me? I sat daily with you teaching in the temple, and ye laid no hold on me." (Mat 26:55). Here the text illustrates that thieves were considered to be dangerous enough that their arrest warranted 'swords and staves.'

In the book of John, Jesus further elaborates on the characteristics of a "... thief (who) cometh not, but for to steal, and to kill, and to destroy...." (John 10:10). It is apparent from this passage that the term thief connotes someone that does far more than simply steal. The thief also comes to destroy. Indeed, when one remembers the two thieves that were ultimately crucified next to Christ, it's not difficult to see that the title was applied to persons that came to perpetrate an act of violence or pure destruction, for Roman society considered thieves a sufficient threat that they crucified them.

Moving on to the epistles, while the rapture crowd chooses to characterize the allusion to a thief as an indication of the immanency of the so-called rapture, the Apostle Peter chooses to describe the coming of the thief in the night as incredibly destructive, highly visual, and even very noisy:

"But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with a fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up." (2 Pet 2:10).

This vivid description doesn't sound at all like what one might expect from a 'secret coming' that suddenly and discriminately snatches up the faithful believer, and leaves everyone else in the clutches of the Antichrist. After all, if the earth is "burned up" and the heavens pass away with a 'big bang' WHEN this "thief" comes, how could there then be 7 years left for the tribulation?

In addition to these citations from Matthew, Luke, John, and Peter, the Apostle Paul also taught that the coming of the thief in the night would be accompanied by a tremendous and final destruction. In a favorite passage frequently cited by the group I've come to refer to as The Rapture Cult, Paul writes that "... the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night. For when they shall say peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape." (1 Thes 5:2, 3). Once again, the arival of the thief in the night coincides with "sudden destruction."

When both Peter and Paul describe the arrival of the thief in the night as an event of tremendous destruction, they both state that true believers will not be caught unawares for they will be watching for the return of The Lord.

Paul actually uses the word thief again in the very next verse following his first reference to the thief in the night. He writes that the true believer is "... not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief." (1 Thes 5:4).

This verse succinctly states that believers WILL be on the earth when "the day" arrives, but they'll be prepared for that day for they've been WATCHING and anticipating the Lord's arrival. This is precisely what Christ instructed the errant church in Sardis to do in order to renew their right standing with Him: Repent and WATCH.

The allusion to Christ's return as a thief actually occurs twice in Revelation. In fact, the similarity between The Thief of Sardis in Revelation 3 and the thief mentioned in Revelation 16 is striking. Both verses are the actual words of Jesus. Both verses refer to Christ coming as a thief. Both verses admonish believers to watch. Both verses state that believers are to keep their garments from being "defiled."

Obviously, both verses merit a close look.

When The Thief of Sardis (Jesus) states that those who do not repent and watch "will... not know what hour (He) will come upon thee" (Rev 3:3), He states that His coming will then be "as a thief." (Rev 3:3). Much later, in Revelation 16:15, Jesus says "Behold, I come as a thief... Blessed is he that watcheth, and keepeth his garments, lest he walk naked, and they see his shame."

At this point, all 7 seal judgment have occurred. All 7 trumpet judgment have gone by. And at least 6 of the 7 vial judgments have been poured out. Indeed, the very next verse says "And he gathered them together into a place called in the Hebrew tongue Armageddon." (Rev 16:16). It is at the battle of Armageddon that Christ returns to the earth -- after the tribulation has fully run its course (Rev 19:19). Yet immediately preceding this battle, AFTER the seal, trumpet, and vial Judgments, Christ says in the FUTURE tense, "Behold, I come as a thief." (Rev 3:3).

Furthermore, there is no doubt this is the same coming of the thief that is referred to in Revelation 3 -- the words spoken to the church of Sardis, for both references include specific details such as not defiling one's garments, watching, and the actual reference to Christ's return as being like that of a thief. In short, this is precise and irrefutable Scriptural proof that the thief in the night comes AFTER the tribulation.
 
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There is no second rapture.It is the rapture and then the second coming after the tribulation

The Rapture can not be separated from the Resurrection.

Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord. 1 Thessalonians 4:17

...together with them i
s the gathering,

You are trying to divide what the scripture so clearly says will be gathered together.

Caught up together with them...
clearly means the Resurrection comes just before the Rapture, which happens together with the Resurrection.

The Rapture can not be separated from the Resurrection.

The Resurrection happens at His Coming.

His Coming is after the tribulation.

The event of the Resurrection/Rapture happens together, for we who are alive and remain will be caught up together.


JLB

 
you need to read up what amil is and preterism teaches.
Do I have to read of Josephus and his illusions?
I read the following description by Josephus I have to agree with him on: I agree with you Josephus; I dismiss it as your imagination.
http://www.preteristarchive.com/StudyArchive/c/chariots-in-clouds.html

Josephus (A.D. 75) - Jewish Historian
"Besides these [signs], a few days after that feast, on the one- and-twentieth day of the month Artemisius, [Jyar,] a certain prodigious and incredible phenomenon appeared; I suppose the account of it would seem to be a fable, were it not related by those that saw it, and were not the events that followed it of so considerable a nature as to deserve such signals; for, before sun-setting, chariots and troops of soldiers in their armour were seen running about among the clouds, and surrounding of cities. Moreover, at that feast which we call Pentecost, as the priests were going by night into the inner [court of the] temple, as their custom was, to perform their sacred ministrations, they said that, in the first place, they felt a quaking, and heard a great noise, and after that they heard a sound as of a great multitude, saying, "Let us remove hence" (Jewish Wars, VI-V-3).

A supernatural apparition was seen, too amazing to be believed. What I am now to relate would, I imagine, be dismissed as imaginary, had this not been vouched for by eyewitnesses, then followed by subsequent disasters that deserved to be thus signalized. For before sunset chariots were seen in the air over the whole country, and armed battalions speeding through the clouds and encircling the cities.” (rendered in Chilton)
:shame
 
So where do you read more then one rapture ?

It's in Ezekiel 39

If people are gonna be burying the dead bodies of the slAin on the who earth to cleanse the land. Those are the people thTs gonna full the earth during the thousand year reign and after that those people will be caught up before the fire comes down on armeggedon. Read the scriptures I posted thoroughly u will see there's scripture that supports this saying
 
It's in Ezekiel 39

If people are gonna be burying the dead bodies of the slAin on the who earth to cleanse the land. Those are the people thTs gonna full the earth during the thousand year reign and after that those people will be caught up before the fire comes down on armeggedon. Read the scriptures I posted thoroughly u will see there's scripture that supports this saying
Will you please post the exact scripture you're referring to, and begin using common vernacular instead of words such as "slAin", and "thTs" I made bold above in your post? I reckon I should be grateful you don't recommend reading the entire Old Testament to understand what you're attempting to say.

Rev 20:9 And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them. I'm sorry, but I do not see where the camp of the saints are removed. Thanks.
 
39 Therefore, thou son of man, prophesy against Gog, and say, Thus saith the Lord God; Behold, Iam against thee, O Gog, the chief prince of Meshech and Tubal: 2 And I will turn thee back, and leave but the sixth part of thee, and will cause thee to come up from the ...

Where?
 
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If you want the answer to the "rapture" question, simply study the RESURRECTION.

The rapture doctrine requires students of the scriptures to approach each relevant verse with certain preconceived notions about prophecy. If you simply read the various prophetic verses about the return of Christ, the Bible clearly teaches that believers will be “gathered” at the second coming -- not some secret, invisible return that precedes his BIG second coming at the end of the tribulation. The problem isn’t in our understanding of the rapture, because the rapture as routinely taught today doesn’t even exist; the difficulty is in our understanding of the resurrection.

In John chapter five, Jesus tells us how God The Father has committed the power of resurrection to him. Jesus says “He that heareth my word and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life...for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice. And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.” (John 6:24, 28, 29) According to these passages, apparently there are two resurrections: one for those “that have done good,” and a resurrection for those “that have done evil.”

In one of the parallel accounts, a verse in Luke has Christ himself saying that the believer shall “be recompensed at the resurrection of the just.” (Luke 14:14) Another proof text of this dual aspect of the resurrection is found in the book of Acts when the Apostle Paul was brought before the Roman governor Felix and charged with heresy by the Jews.

Paul stated that he believes, as the Jews did, “that there shall be a resurrection of the dead, both of the just and the unjust.” (Ezekiel 33:8, 4) A further example of this understanding of two resurrections is found in the Old Testament, when the prophet Daniel was instructed by the archangel Michael concerning the tribulation and the resurrection. In that instance, Michael said that in the time of the end, “many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.” (Daniel 12:2)

Back in the New Testament book of Revelation, we find a reference to “the first resurrection.” (Rev. 20:5) This first resurrection clearly relates to believers in Jesus, for the text states that they “lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.” (Rev. 20:4)

In the same chapter, John (the writer of Revelation) says “the rest of the dead live not again until the thousand years were finished.” (Rev. 20:5) Later in the chapter John says, “when the thousand years are expired...I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God...and the dead were judged...” (Rev. 20:7, 12) These verses plainly state that there are two resurrections -- one for believers and one for unbelievers.

The Revelation passages further clarify that these two resurrections are separated by one thousand years; this being the period we commonly call the millennium during which the resurrected believers shall “reign with him a thousand years.” (Rev. 20:6)
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.
If you want the answer to the "rapture" question, simply study the RESURRECTION.

The rapture doctrine requires students of the scriptures to approach each relevant verse with certain preconceived notions about prophecy. If you simply read the various prophetic verses about the return of Christ, the Bible clearly teaches that believers will be “gathered” at the second coming -- not some secret, invisible return that precedes his BIG second coming at the end of the tribulation. The problem isn’t in our understanding of the rapture, because the rapture as routinely taught today doesn’t even exist; the difficulty is in our understanding of the resurrection.

In John chapter five, Jesus tells us how God The Father has committed the power of resurrection to him. Jesus says “He that heareth my word and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life...for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice. And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.” (John 6:24, 28, 29) According to these passages, apparently there are two resurrections: one for those “that have done good,” and a resurrection for those “that have done evil.”

In one of the parallel accounts, a verse in Luke has Christ himself saying that the believer shall “be recompensed at the resurrection of the just.” (Luke 14:14) Another proof text of this dual aspect of the resurrection is found in the book of Acts when the Apostle Paul was brought before the Roman governor Felix and charged with heresy by the Jews.

Paul stated that he believes, as the Jews did, “that there shall be a resurrection of the dead, both of the just and the unjust.” (Ezekiel 33:8, 4) A further example of this understanding of two resurrections is found in the Old Testament, when the prophet Daniel was instructed by the archangel Michael concerning the tribulation and the resurrection. In that instance, Michael said that in the time of the end, “many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.” (Daniel 12:2)

Back in the New Testament book of Revelation, we find a reference to “the first resurrection.” (Rev. 20:5) This first resurrection clearly relates to believers in Jesus, for the text states that they “lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.” (Rev. 20:4)

In the same chapter, John (the writer of Revelation) says “the rest of the dead live not again until the thousand years were finished.” (Rev. 20:5) Later in the chapter John says, “when the thousand years are expired...I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God...and the dead were judged...” (Rev. 20:7, 12) These verses plainly state that there are two resurrections -- one for believers and one for unbelievers.

The Revelation passages further clarify that these two resurrections are separated by one thousand years; this being the period we commonly call the millennium during which the resurrected believers shall “reign with him a thousand years.” (Rev. 20:6)
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No thanks that does not give me any Biblical answers at all.
 
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If you want the answer to the "rapture" question, simply study the RESURRECTION.

The rapture doctrine requires students of the scriptures to approach each relevant verse with certain preconceived notions about prophecy. If you simply read the various prophetic verses about the return of Christ, the Bible clearly teaches that believers will be “gathered” at the second coming -- not some secret, invisible return that precedes his BIG second coming at the end of the tribulation. The problem isn’t in our understanding of the rapture, because the rapture as routinely taught today doesn’t even exist; the difficulty is in our understanding of the resurrection.

In John chapter five, Jesus tells us how God The Father has committed the power of resurrection to him. Jesus says “He that heareth my word and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life...for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice. And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.” (John 6:24, 28, 29) According to these passages, apparently there are two resurrections: one for those “that have done good,” and a resurrection for those “that have done evil.”

In one of the parallel accounts, a verse in Luke has Christ himself saying that the believer shall “be recompensed at the resurrection of the just.” (Luke 14:14) Another proof text of this dual aspect of the resurrection is found in the book of Acts when the Apostle Paul was brought before the Roman governor Felix and charged with heresy by the Jews.

Paul stated that he believes, as the Jews did, “that there shall be a resurrection of the dead, both of the just and the unjust.” (Ezekiel 33:8, 4) A further example of this understanding of two resurrections is found in the Old Testament, when the prophet Daniel was instructed by the archangel Michael concerning the tribulation and the resurrection. In that instance, Michael said that in the time of the end, “many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.” (Daniel 12:2)

Back in the New Testament book of Revelation, we find a reference to “the first resurrection.” (Rev. 20:5) This first resurrection clearly relates to believers in Jesus, for the text states that they “lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.” (Rev. 20:4)

In the same chapter, John (the writer of Revelation) says “the rest of the dead live not again until the thousand years were finished.” (Rev. 20:5) Later in the chapter John says, “when the thousand years are expired...I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God...and the dead were judged...” (Rev. 20:7, 12) These verses plainly state that there are two resurrections -- one for believers and one for unbelievers.

The Revelation passages further clarify that these two resurrections are separated by one thousand years; this being the period we commonly call the millennium during which the resurrected believers shall “reign with him a thousand years.” (Rev. 20:6)
.

In John chapter five, Jesus tells us how God The Father has committed the power of resurrection to him. Jesus says “He that heareth my word and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life...for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice. And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.” (John 6:24, 28, 29) According to these passages, apparently there are two resurrections: one for those “that have done good,” and a resurrection for those “that have done evil.”

The Resurrection is always a good study... maybe i am splitting hairs here ? ....
I see this as one resurrection....for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice. involving 2 different groups... Kinda down the lines of it is not a million resurrections if a million Christians are resurrected..... it is the same last day resurrection.
 
I understand that the Rapture and Second Coming take place consecutively at the end of the Great Tribulation, ending the 70 weeks of years spoken of in Daniel 9:24.

The Feast of Trumpets foretells that the Rapture will occur on the 1st day of the 7th month.

On the 10th day [of that same month and year] the LORD will fulfill the Feast of Atonement by returning to save Israel along with surviving Gentiles.

On the 15th day [of that same month and year] the LORD will set foot on the Temple Mount in Jerusalem, beginning the first day of the Feast of Tabernacles.

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I think they are saying that the rapture will come fast and the world will not see it.Alot of people will be gone....just like that..I can only speculate and say the world might feel or hear something somewhat like a sonic boom from the impact but that is just my 2 cents worth.
Matt 24
40 Then shall two be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left.
41 Two women shall be grinding at the mill; the one shall be taken, and the other left.
42 Watch therefore: for ye know not what hour your Lord doth come.
would this be like a secret as it appears neither new at the time the one was taken
 
Do I have to read of Josephus and his illusions?
I read the following description by Josephus I have to agree with him on: I agree with you Josephus; I dismiss it as your imagination.
http://www.preteristarchive.com/StudyArchive/c/chariots-in-clouds.html

Josephus (A.D. 75) - Jewish Historian
"Besides these [signs], a few days after that feast, on the one- and-twentieth day of the month Artemisius, [Jyar,] a certain prodigious and incredible phenomenon appeared; I suppose the account of it would seem to be a fable, were it not related by those that saw it, and were not the events that followed it of so considerable a nature as to deserve such signals; for, before sun-setting, chariots and troops of soldiers in their armour were seen running about among the clouds, and surrounding of cities. Moreover, at that feast which we call Pentecost, as the priests were going by night into the inner [court of the] temple, as their custom was, to perform their sacred ministrations, they said that, in the first place, they felt a quaking, and heard a great noise, and after that they heard a sound as of a great multitude, saying, "Let us remove hence" (Jewish Wars, VI-V-3).

A supernatural apparition was seen, too amazing to be believed. What I am now to relate would, I imagine, be dismissed as imaginary, had this not been vouched for by eyewitnesses, then followed by subsequent disasters that deserved to be thus signalized. For before sunset chariots were seen in the air over the whole country, and armed battalions speeding through the clouds and encircling the cities.” (rendered in Chilton)
:shame
im not the one whom believes scofield whom believed the law would return.
 
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The Resurrection is always a good study... maybe i am splitting hairs here ? ....

Keep splitting. The enemy needs the haircut!

I see this as one resurrection....for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice. involving 2 different groups... Kinda down the lines of it is not a million resurrections if a million Christians are resurrected..... it is the same last day resurrection.

Yep. Two realities, if you will -- one for each group.
 
Eugene said -

I reckon I should be grateful you don't recommend reading the entire Old Testament to understand what you're attempting to say

Grateful. :salute
 
No thanks that does not give me any Biblical answers at all.


It gives you the only answer.

The Rapture and Resurrection are one event.

The Rapture is the "Resurrection" for people who are alive!

The Resurrection and Rapture can not be separated.


JLB
 
The Resurrection takes place BEFORE the Rapture.

Yup, and I'm thinking the rapture is only minutes apart from the first resurrection. I wish the bible was clear on that, sigh :sad.

1 Thess 4:16 For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first.
 
Will you please post the exact scripture you're referring to, and begin using common vernacular instead of words such as "slAin", and "thTs" I made bold above in your post? I reckon I should be grateful you don't recommend reading the entire Old Testament to understand what you're attempting to say.

Rev 20:9 And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them. I'm sorry, but I do not see where the camp of the saints are removed. Thanks.

Whether I speak with ye or you hitherto or there it does not make a difference

If you understand than u do if U don't than u don't

For I tell u I spoken to some people plainly on different sites and in person and they sill couldn't understand so why not speak in riddles?
 
39 Therefore, thou son of man, prophesy against Gog, and say, Thus saith the Lord God; Behold, Iam against thee, O Gog, the chief prince of Meshech and Tubal: 2 And I will turn thee back, and leave but the sixth part of thee, and will cause thee to come up from the ...

Where?

8 Behold, it is come, and it is done, saith the Lord GOD; this is the day whereof I have spoken.

9 And they that dwell in the cities of Israel shall go forth, and shall set on fire and burn the weapons, both the shields and the bucklers, the bows and the arrows, and the handstaves, and the spears, and they shall burn them with fire seven years:

10 So that they shall take no wood out of the field, neither cut down any out of the forests; for they shall burn the weapons with fire: and they shall spoil those that spoiled them, and rob those that robbed them, saith the Lord GOD.

11 And it shall come to pass in that day, that I will give unto Gog a place there of graves in Israel, the valley of the passengers on the east of the sea: and it shall stop the noses of the passengers: and there shall they bury Gog and all his multitude: and they shall call it The valley of Hamongog.

12 And seven months shall the house of Israel be burying of them, that they may cleanse the land.



13 Yea, all the people of the land shall bury them; and it shall be to them a renown the day that I shall be glorified, saith the Lord GOD.

14 And they shall sever out men of continual employment, passing through the land to bury with the passengers those that remain upon the face of the earth, to cleanse it: after the end of seven months shall they search

Reba I don't think u asking the right question saying where. I believe the correct question is who is the men and people who will be employed to bury them that remain on the face of the whole earth after the great day ofnthe lord and the great earthquake.

And if there be men. How will The Lord rapture those people after satan is loosed out of his prison. To deceive the four quarters of the earth got and Magog after the thousand years is fulfilled.

Now we no it is impossible for satan to deceive the first resurrected people for they are with god in heaven and are equal to angels.

But who are the men who will clean up the earth as it is written after god shakes the earth as he said in Ezekiel 38?
 
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